Cliff Fletcher and his second go around with the Leafs

As the Leafs are in the middle of their "rebuild" how has the senile fox done in your opinion thus far?

As the Leafs are in the middle of their "rebuild" how has the senile fox done in your opinion thus far?

I've liked his moves. He said he was going to change the culture of the team and he has definitely done that. :laugh:

I have a list of players I would like to see moved out from the ones we have, depending on the return.

This is about to get fun. He has an excess of players right now, ones he's acquired and ones that were already here. The best part is a combination of both can be moved in a trade. He has acquired players in a trade before just to trade them again in bigger deals.

I can't wait to see what happens next.

if Cliff pulls off a blockbuster it will radically change how we all view what he's done.

Also, if cliff pulls a bunch of beneficial moves at the deadline, again, it will radically change how we view what he's done.

That's why I will reserve judgement until I know what he is doing

if Cliff pulls off a blockbuster it will radically change how we all view what he's done.

Also, if cliff pulls a bunch of beneficial moves at the deadline, again, it will radically change how we view what he's done.

That's why I will reserve judgement until I know what he is doing


Fair enough, but what if he doesn't know what he is doing? I think it is clear what my opinion is, he has not made one move that I feel confident in, has traded more picks than aquired in the supposed rebuid, took big risks/chances in Finger and the prospect from Montreal, has yet to trade kubina and others for prsopects/picks, got rid of Tucker only to take a cap hit and replace him with a marginal NHLer and gave away a 5th in the process, looked like an absolute idiot with the McCabe/media fiasco. Sure, I hope things get better, but everything he has done right now gives me no positive indication that it will. I like Schenn, but we will see in time if the trading up was worth it.

I'm really flabbergasted how such a large number of posts from naive (inexperienced? unknowledgable? young?) hockey fans are dominating some of these discussions.
Really, you'd rather have Pohl, Newbury, Devereaux, Bell, Gamache and Belak instead of Hollweg, Hagman and Mayers?
Really, you didn't see Kubina show up out of shape and play like crap in the first half each of the last two seasons?
Really, you don't think that McCabe's play has been slipping in terms of defensive coverage and physical play?
Really, you think that Mark Bell gave a glimmer of hope with his play last season?
Really, you think Tucker showed anywhere the same combativeness and competititiveness last season that he has shown in the past.
Really, you think Ferguson had a plan and that it was sabotaged by his bosses?
Really, you think there are substantial prospects on the Marlies?
Really, you'd rather live in denial blaming injuries, coaching, bad luck, etc. and continue with the same core that couldn't even grab the last playoff spot even once in the last 3 seasons?

I'm aghast.

I think he has done fine, adding some quality and decent youth through shuffling of lesser picks and prospects, keeping first rounders, and icing a team with high lotto written all over it. Sure I'd like to see McCabe and Tucker gone with not paying out but these guys and their management are not idiots and unless you live in world of Candy canes and sugarplum fairies they are not leaving multi-millions on the table when they know they will get the buyout in time and nor should they. Still expect them to move Kubina and Would like to see them move Toskala to the first team desperate for a starter this season, honestly his ability to steal games scares me for this team this season.

I'm really flabbergasted how such a large number of posts from naive (inexperienced? unknowledgable? young?) hockey fans are dominating some of these discussions.
Really, you'd rather have Pohl, Newbury, Devereaux, Bell, Gamache and Belak instead of Hollweg, Hagman and Mayers?
Really, you didn't see Kubina show up out of shape and play like crap in the first half each of the last two seasons?
Really, you don't think that McCabe's play has been slipping in terms of defensive coverage and physical play?
Really, you think that Mark Bell gave a glimmer of hope with his play last season?
Really, you think Tucker showed anywhere the same combativeness and competititiveness last season that he has shown in the past.
Really, you think Ferguson had a plan and that it was sabotaged by his bosses?
Really, you think there are substantial prospects on the Marlies?
Really, you'd rather live in denial blaming injuries, coaching, bad luck, etc. and continue with the same core that couldn't even grab the last playoff spot even once in the last 3 seasons?

I'm aghast.

Although I'm only 3 years away from freedom 35, I can assure you I don't allow my biases to stop me from seeing reality.

I'd rather a Newbury, Deveraux or Bell over a Hollweg any day of the week, especially giving away a 5th for him?
Maybe Kubina was out of shape when he came in, but alot of people would day he was th best D man down the stretch. What's you point? You want him traded? So do I.
McCabe has not been the same the last two years, but I guess when he got his arm caught in the boards in MTL that didn't have a negative effect?
If McCabe is "slipping" it makes sense to push him out of the line up and make a public circus out if it. That will really increase McCabe's marketability and make MLSE look really good as well.
Mark Bell had a bad year, what's your point?
Tucker was injured last year, that was in the papers and the media, that was a fact. Fletch wants to change the culture, great. Buy out Tucker, get stuck with a 6 year cap hit, then trade a 5th to replace what Tucker brought to the table. You think Hollweg is going to score 18 goals. Think again.
It was in the media, papers that JFJ brought a rebuild plan to Peddie and others, and was told his mandate was the playoffs. Why are you having a hard time comprehending that, it was made as fact. Even Bowman talked about autonomy, and how orginally Bowman was not going to be given full autonomy. I guess they gave that to JFJ though right?
No there are no substantial rookies on the Marlies, but Mitchel, Earl, Williams seem to have potential, why go get a player with 5th, when you could give some of your younger players (that you did not have to aquire) a chance to see what they have? Sounds kinda like a rebuid to me?
Many have sais the coaching was not good (did you see the decrease in the PP and PK numbers over one year and they added players prior?)
There were injuries, they happen, and Tucker and McCabe were both injured as a fact.
Yes the core needs to be changed, I tottaly agree,however Fletch is so far, doing an absolute garbage job so far IMO.

Anything that brings us to first overall pick is good. I'm not for or against any of his moves really. He has pretty much done what he promised in my eyes.

Fletcher is a breath of fresh air and each day that passes he continues to erase the dark most unsuccessful time in Leaf history that was the embarrassing JFJ Era. By any and all means Cliff is doing what he was hired for to do and erase the mistakes of the past to clear the slate for a brighter future tomorrow.

MLSE BOG his bosses are so pleased with his work to date that they removed the interim GM tag from his title as they await the next GM and asked him to continue on cleaning house for them in the meantime. The take no prisoners approach is exactly what this organization needed and what Cliff promised us, and he is delivering in spades.. There still remains obstacles in his way that he plans of bulldozing over, and its only a matter of time for others to feel his wrath.

We're going to see a team that plays better defense and the goals against are going to come down.. One that has a lot more grit and bite to it and not butter soft,:hit: :fight:and its going to make them more competitive game in and game out. I expect to see a ton of effort and enthusiasm with no lack of motivation from the youngsters. Win or lose they're going to put up a nightly fight and make it an unpleasant experience for our opponents.

I am really looking forward to the beginning of a new Leaf season with anticipation and excitement like I haven't in years :hyper: :vhappy:. Watching all the kids play front line roles and get a ton icetime will bring me endless hours of enjoyment and entertainment.

For all that I have to give Cliff a big round thanks :cheers: and say keep up the good work. The once proud tradition that was the Maple Leafs is being restored right before our eyes. :hockey::stanley:

When the Sundin Fiasco is over it will be a lot easier to understand what is going on.


Tlusty Antropov Steen
Blake Grabovski Kulemin
Hagman Bell Mayers
Hollweg Moore Devereaux

Kaberle Kubina
Finger Colaiacovo
Frogren Stralman

Toskala
Joseph

Extra's Ponikarovsky/Stajan (I hope)/McCabe

If Sundin is resigned it creates a pretty big domino effect within the team.

It's way to early to judge, Fletcher has only begun.

I just wish he'd stop throwing draft picks away.

The draft is a crapshoot. Ergo, if you have more picks, the better your odds at finding that 3rd or 4th round player that develops into something good. We should be going the other way - we should try to pick as many players as possible in each draft. It's the cheapest way to develop talent and we seem to be putting all our eggs in a smaller and smaller basket each year as 2nd and 3rd rounders are sent out the door for guys like Mayers and Grabovski.

Mixed views from my perspective.

First off, I think that simply by changing the coaching staff, we can have a much better team on the ice. We finished 23rd last year, so even if it made us better, it wouldnt make us a contender. So I approve of changing the face of the team and rebuilding.

1) Getting rid of Raycroft, Tucker, and others, IMO was a good move. Cliff did well at the deadline to move others for picks. More room and playing time on the leafs, and marlies. Pogge will be the new #1 in the A, which is great.

2) Jeff Finger - when someone like me doesnt really know about a hockey player,and we give him $3.5M a year, its a bad thing. This is a gamble move, it will take a lot for him to earn that money, and if he doesnt, we can have another Leaf whipping boy. That said he is tough, and has some skill. I dont mind the player, just the pricetage.

3) Hagman - still a little overpaid, but at UFA, almost everyone gets overpaid. They get a hard working, very fast player. Will help out on the PK. I like the pick-up, essentially Tucker's replacement. Both in pricetag and production. A much better skater, should be a good checking line player.

4) Mayers trade - We didnt give up that much, and we got a good player who skates and hits well, and is the type of player the fans will really like. He also fights when need be. This is a character player, and one we need to help the team going forward as the youngsters develop.

5) Luke Schenn & the draft - We got some good players, and Schenn, well, I was happy with this pick to say the least. When you are arguing over Hodgson, Wilson and Boedker, and you pick up Schenn, everyone should be happy, this kid simply dominates the defensive end. We have our own Komisarek, only better.

6) Hollweg - Dont like this at all, hes not very good, and I think Fletcher only got him because hes a bit of a dick,and only 25. We need a heavyweight. Who will fight laraque? We should have kept Belak. I liked him.

7) Frogren - a tough defensive dman, very low risk move with potential to pay off. Could be a solid #6-7 defender for us. Played well with Stralman on NA ice in the WC. Will be interested to see how this works out.

8) Grabovski - I think we overpaid. He had no place on that lineup, i dont think he should have cost more than a 3rd because of it. Not very impressive numbers in the NHL, but one could argue he wasnt given much of a chance. Hes not that young either, 24, this is likely his chance.

9) Joseph - We needed a backup, its going to be a long season, might as well bring in a friendly face.

I still think we're maybe 1 trade away from being complete. And while I dont like the fact that we traded a some picks away in the Mayers, Grab, Hollweg deals, people should understand that we've acquired assets to help the team build, and we have assets to deal at the deadline. We may have lost picks, but we will get them back and some. So, all in all, an OK job.

It should be a fun season watching the guys compete for playing time, and seeing who can step up.

Poni - Antropov - Blake
Grabovski - Steen - Kulemin
Tlusty - Stajan - Hagman
Hollweg - Bell - Mayers
Moore, Earl

Kaberle - Kubina
McCabe - Stralman
Colaiacovo - Finger
Frogren

Toskala
Joseph

Fletcher has done a bunch of stuff, got rid of a few guys, brought a few guys in, pulled the tough guy act when he came in but could never back it up. I'm sure that he is disappointed in how little he was able to accomplish but I'm not surprised that he wasn't able to jump back into the game after doing nothing of significance in the NHL for over 10 years. Peddie played on the lack of knowledge of naive fans who were happy to see a recognizable name without asking what his qualifications are for building an NHL team in this day and age.

I'm really flabbergasted how such a large number of posts from naive (inexperienced? unknowledgable? young?) hockey fans are dominating some of these discussions.
Really, you'd rather have Pohl, Newbury, Devereaux, Bell, Gamache and Belak instead of Hollweg, Hagman and Mayers?
Really, you didn't see Kubina show up out of shape and play like crap in the first half each of the last two seasons?
Really, you don't think that McCabe's play has been slipping in terms of defensive coverage and physical play?
Really, you think that Mark Bell gave a glimmer of hope with his play last season?
Really, you think Tucker showed anywhere the same combativeness and competititiveness last season that he has shown in the past.
Really, you think Ferguson had a plan and that it was sabotaged by his bosses?
Really, you think there are substantial prospects on the Marlies?
Really, you'd rather live in denial blaming injuries, coaching, bad luck, etc. and continue with the same core that couldn't even grab the last playoff spot even once in the last 3 seasons?

I'm aghast.

Same could be said for the flip side that can't see how he's done anything wrong.
I wouldn't take MLSE's vote of confidence as a positive reflection of his job.

I'm really flabbergasted how such a large number of posts from naive (inexperienced? unknowledgable? young?) hockey fans are dominating some of these discussions.
Really, you'd rather have Pohl, Newbury, Devereaux, Bell, Gamache and Belak instead of Hollweg, Hagman and Mayers?
Really, you didn't see Kubina show up out of shape and play like crap in the first half each of the last two seasons?
Really, you don't think that McCabe's play has been slipping in terms of defensive coverage and physical play?
Really, you think that Mark Bell gave a glimmer of hope with his play last season?
Really, you think Tucker showed anywhere the same combativeness and competititiveness last season that he has shown in the past.
Really, you think Ferguson had a plan and that it was sabotaged by his bosses?
Really, you think there are substantial prospects on the Marlies?
Really, you'd rather live in denial blaming injuries, coaching, bad luck, etc. and continue with the same core that couldn't even grab the last playoff spot even once in the last 3 seasons?

I'm aghast.
Nice false dilemmas you have going there. Just because Fletcher has been better than JFJ doesn't make his moves fantastic.

For a rebuilding team to have only four (three?) picks in the upcoming draft is just plain laughable. Even if he trades Kubina for a first and second it still doesn't justify him wasting a second rounder on Montreal's trash. If he was going to do that, he should have used an offer sheet on someone that is, you know, good...

Really, you'd rather have Pohl, Newbury, Devereaux, Bell, Gamache and Belak instead of Hollweg, Hagman and Mayers?
Really, you think that Mark Bell gave a glimmer of hope with his play last season?
Really, you think there are substantial prospects on the Marlies?
.


Yes I would rather have Bell, Devereaux and Belak instead of Hollweg

Bell was suspended and injured pretty much most of last year and had alot on his mind near the end of the year due to his jail sentence. I believe he will have a great year this season

So our projected Franchise goalie for the future is not considered a substantial prospect then I guess:help: I guess we're going to be pretty screwed then

Nice false dilemmas you have going there. Just because Fletcher has been better than JFJ doesn't make his moves fantastic.

...

I've said that myself in the past.
Why does it have to be either or? Why can't they both have done a poor job?

As the Leafs are in the middle of their "rebuild" how has the senile fox done in your opinion thus far?

Not very good. He seems to think we don't need draft picks and likes to over pay for low grade trades and overpay for mediocre free agents. He has yet to trade Kubina. Things looked promising up to draft day but not so promising any more. What was the point of trading Kilger Belak and Mayers if your going to turn arround and use those picks to aquire similar players with those pics for the current roster.

Outside of the actual draft, where I like for the most part his picks (at the suggestion of his scouts), I've been fairly underwhelmed.

He throws pick around like candy. Sure, it's not the 1sts that JFJ used to toss away, but 2nds, 3rds, 5ths are all useful picks for a team in a rebuild. Did we really need a 33 year old player like Mayers? How about a skillless goon like Hollweg?

Nice false dilemmas you have going there. Just because Fletcher has been better than JFJ doesn't make his moves fantastic.

For a rebuilding team to have only four (three?) picks in the upcoming draft is just plain laughable. Even if he trades Kubina for a first and second it still doesn't justify him wasting a second rounder on Montreal's trash. If he was going to do that, he should have used an offer sheet on someone that is, you know, good...

Speaking of false dilemmas, apart from trading away the 2nd rounder for the 2009 draft (which I agree I don't like), we have all of our other picks. That's 6 picks.

Speaking of false dilemmas, apart from trading away the 2nd rounder for the 2009 draft (which I agree I don't like), we have all of our other picks. That's 6 picks.

We also don't have the fourth next year from the Ferguson trade for Toskala.

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/hockey/DraftTrades/2009.htm

Yes I would rather have Bell, Devereaux and Belak instead of Hollweg

Bell was suspended and injured pretty much most of last year and had alot on his mind near the end of the year due to his jail sentence. I believe he will have a great year this season

So our projected Franchise goalie for the future is not considered a substantial prospect then I guess:help: I guess we're going to be pretty screwed then

Hollweg is a better hockey player than Belak easily. Belak is a better fighter supposedly but near to impossible to keep on the ice. No need to compare Devereaux to Hollweg, Devereax's a failed top 6 forward who is too soft to play on a competitive team's bottom 6. Bell can't skate, showed little skill and hockey smarts and most importantly hit virtually no one last season until the last game against Ottawa. I hope he can bounce but it's unlikely. If he plays like he played last season, he'll be lucky to get a two way contract from an NHL team.

I agree that Pogge is the best prospect with the Marlies but he isn't on the fast track. Let's hope that changes this season. It's a big season for him and his status as an elite goaltending prospect.

He's done pretty much what he's said he would do.

Have a brand new face to this team, a new identity to their game- True (they look like they'll be a big grinding defensive style of team).
Change the core of this team - True.
Have a handful of playerrs age of 25 and younger - True.
Stray away from signing big name UFA's to long term deals - True.
Take steps back in order to go forward - True.
Restock the farm system/build a foundation of prospects - Unknown at this time.

I think he's done an OK job. Picks in the mid to late rounds are easily acquired so I'm not too worried about that. Until he starts trading 1st rounders I won't be up in arms about any of the draft pick trading (granted he starts trading for some draft picks). And he has too many roster players now so I'd guess he will be trading for prospects/picks to shed the extra bodies.

So I'm pretty happy with what has gone on so far. And I'm excited to see the moves that are yet to come. I've been quick to judge GM's in the past, so I'm letting him have a full summer before I start seriously jumping on anything that has been done.

We also don't have the fourth next year from the Ferguson trade for Toskala.

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/hockey/DraftTrades/2009.htm

5 picks then and one isn't the current regime's doing.

All Im going to say is, we may have lost a couple picks from next years draft, but we WILL get more back, you can count on that. Leafs management isnt that stupid. We acquired the assets to help the team in the season, and we will surely move some by the deadline for picks, just like we did last year.

I just wish he'd stop throwing draft picks away.

The draft is a crapshoot. Ergo, if you have more picks, the better your odds at finding that 3rd or 4th round player that develops into something good. We should be going the other way - we should try to pick as many players as possible in each draft. It's the cheapest way to develop talent and we seem to be putting all our eggs in a smaller and smaller basket each year as 2nd and 3rd rounders are sent out the door for guys like Mayers and Grabovski.

What happens if Grabovski is a success story. He is only 24 and still cheap and unproven. How do we know that he will not be better then that 2nd round pick prospect that we would have selected..

JFJ traded our 2nd in 2008 away for Perreault . Fletcher traded away Gill for a 2nd in 2008 and brought us Jimmy Hayes with that recovered 2nd rounder. That 5th round pick in 2009 completed the Gill transaction. Hollweg is only 25 and the first game he plays might be more then that pick ever would . Keep in mind its Pittsburgh's pick which will be at the very end of the 5th round and almost a 6th rounder essentially.

Cliff traded Belak for a pick and put Jerome Flaake in the prospect pool with it.

He traded Kilger for a pick and then traded that pick for Mayers .. If it helps people rationalize that move it can be viewed that as Kilger got traded from Mayers. Now nobody in his right mind would trade the Leafs Mayers for Kilger straight up, so Fletcher found a sucker and cashed in Kilger for a pick, and now that pick had enough currency value that it returned us Mayers. Jamal Mayers is good enough to represent Canada at the World Championships and has a gold and silver medal to show for his efforts.. Kilger might be out of hockey now and Mayers is under contract for the next two years at the bargain basement price of $1.3 mil and put up 12 goals and 27 points in addition to playing his role as peace keeper.

Cliff also for the first time in a decade as a Leafs GM proactively attacked the draft and got us Luke Schenn, while the past two GM either traded out high picks away or simply sat there doing nothing at the draft.

Now lets not forget Cliff is still not finished and more picks could be coming back for players like Kubina or McCabe etc and Cliff will likely be heading into this next trade deadline in full sell mode .. What happens if Cliff sells off Mayers at the deadline much like he did Gill and gets a 2nd rounder and maybe even a 5th in return?. Mayers is the exact kind of person any contending team would love to add to its playoff roster. Heck even Hollweg might return a pick in exchange again higher then the one he cost us late 5th.

We have to just sit back and watch the Silver Fox in action and remember he is the one that brought us Sundin and Gilmour which were franchise players.. Think how bad the past 20 years would have been as Leaf fans without Fletcher's magic..

Now he is just itching to see if lightning strikes a 3rd time as he attempts to deliver again. Remember if not for NTC clauses players like Jeff Carter and Chris Higgins would already be on the roster for next year.

fletch getting the big d man at the draft, good for the leaf

other then that, he bought out players, and traded draft picks for normal players,

he is just doing what any normal person would do.

so far the draft deal was his only bright star

Cliff Fletcher has done an absolutely terrible, terrible job in the hockey department. I can live with a rebuild, but let's focus the energy, time and resources on the actual job of rebuilding the team, instead of such useless short term fixes such as 'the culture of the lockerroom.'

Mayers and Hollweg won't be around in 3 years, so they're band aid 'fixes' that accomplish nothing, yet manage to take away from the rebuild, however insignificant those picks were.

Trading Pateryn a week after drafting him and sending off another 2nd for a guy who may or may not pan out is kind of a high cost, high risk move. At best, it's paying a fairly high cost for a guy who wasn't even needed in MTL.

Hagman and Finger? Maybe they'll bring something in the hockey department, but I can't help but laugh that they want to get rid of Kubina/McCabe so badly because their contracts are bloated.

I like the Frogren signing, but what's going on in the legal department there?

Buying out Tucker? Tucker on his worst night is still probably more useful than Ryan Hollweg, so I don't know what the rush was.

Wellwood on waivers pissed me off. If other teams can get assets for guys like Grabovski, why is Wellwood so toxic? Especially when he is snapped up right away and signed to a new deal. Same with Raycroft. The upside in keeping him was probably more than letting Cujo have a retirement check.

In total, Fletcher has subtracted 2nd, 3rd, 5th round picks, Tucker, Wellwood, Raycroft, Pateryn and millions of dollars in exchage for Grabovski, Hollweg and Mayers, so that is horrible, horrible value for what was lost.

Cujo, Hagman, Finger, Frogren came as free agents, so they don't really count as 'acquired in subtraction' moves.

15 forwards + AHLers
8 NHL dmen + Kronwall (who bounced back and forth last season) + Schenn (probably going back to junior)

Someone has to be on the way out, most likely for picks. Considering there's a whole year till the next draft we're looking okay right now, not great, but I don't think that many players will be going to camp, especially with AHLers competing for spots.

Picks:
1st - still have
2nd - traded for Schenn (they had an option of 2008 2nd + 2009 3rd OR 2008 3rd + 2009 2nd, they picked the latter)
3rd - still have
4th - traded for Toskala
5th (original) - still have
5th (Gill trade) - traded for Hollweg
6th - still have
7th - still have

So there's still a 1st, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th and probably more before camp and/or the deadline.

Stephen; Wellwood on waivers pissed me off. If other teams can get assets for guys like Grabovski, why is Wellwood so toxic? Especially when he is snapped up right away and signed to a new deal. Same with Raycroft. The upside in keeping him was probably more than letting Cujo have a retirement check.

In total, Fletcher has subtracted 2nd, 3rd, 5th round picks, Tucker, Wellwood, Raycroft, Pateryn and millions of dollars in exchage for Grabovski, Hollweg and Mayers, so that is horrible, horrible value for what was lost.

Cujo, Hagman, Finger, Frogren came as free agents, so they don't really count as 'acquired in subtraction' moves.[/QUOTE] **Wellwood is a fat kid with no groin and now a bad wheel, obviously no one wanted him in a trade. Have you watched Raycroft? He was done in Toronto and had zero trade value. Tucker got 18 goals last year and did little else, he was one of the faces of 3 straight years of no playoffs. The face of the team has to change and it is. Your saying he subtracted picks, you dont take into account he got a 2nd, 3rd and (2) 5ths last year in dealing Kilger, Gill and Belak. And how does signing Free Agents not count in appraising a General Managers job, your making no sense**

This is nothing but a failure. I'm tired of all these Cliff threads as well. Guys keep saying next deadline he's gonna move them out and get us many more picks or better ones. I don't think trading 2nd and 3rd rounds picks from a basement team is smart in any way. In the hopes that at the deadline if were far enough out we'll acquire more then we gave. What if by some minor miracle were close in the race. Then it will be time to add to the roster to get back in. So Fletch will give up more picks but also prospects to bring in garbage rentals taht will get us nowhere

Leaf Nation is losing focus of what the rebuild is all about

Hockey, Toronto style

Hey Toronto, if you could create your very own cellar dweller, what would you include?

Well, you'd start with Jeff Finger (http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/players/Jeff_Finger), add a goalie who won't make your team any better by sitting on the bench and sign a serviceable forward in Niklas Hagman (http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/players/Niklas_Hagman) who's likely as good as he's ever going to get.

For a team that's supposed to be rebuilding, that sure doesn't sound like much of an off-season effort does it?

But let's give Cliff Fletcher a little credit, because if you do, it all adds up to two words: John Tavares.


What is the best thing that Cliff could do that would be viewed better then a top 5 pick in the next draft and hoping for John Tavares?

Are people viewing Fletcher's moves through the eyes that this is all about icing a team that looks like its not tanking but built to compete in the Tavares Derby ?

It appears that Leaf Nation fans can't see the forest for all the trees.

Leaf Nation is losing focus of what the rebuild is all about



What is the best thing that Cliff could do that would be viewed better then a top 5 pick in the next draft and hoping for John Tavares?

Are people viewing Fletcher's moves through the eyes that this is all about icing a team that looks like its not tanking but built to compete in the Tavares Derby ?

It appears that Leaf Nation fans can't see the forest for all the trees.Exactly Mess, people are thinking Cliff should trade a 2nd for Lecavalier not Grabo.. Never once has Fletcher said Finger, Frugen, Hagman or Grabo are franchise players. He is building a nice supporting cast to go with the developing Stralmans, Tlustys Kumelins etc. The franchise players are not on the roster yet, but you can bet Schenn and possibly Tavares will look good in Blue and White with the support Ive just named instead of McCabe, Tucker Wellwood Raycroft etc

How does spending $8.5m over the next four years on Hagman and Finger and Frogren help us get Tavares?

How does giving up a 2nd rounder, a 3rd rounder, and 2 5th rounders for Grabovski, Mayers, and Hollweg help us get Tavares?

Leaf Nation is losing focus of what the rebuild is all about



What is the best thing that Cliff could do that would be viewed better then a top 5 pick in the next draft and hoping for John Tavares?

Are people viewing Fletcher's moves through the eyes that this is all about icing a team that looks like its not tanking but built to compete in the Tavares Derby ?It appears that Leaf Nation fans can't see the forest for all the trees.

Are you suggesting Fletch is going to purposely tank for Tavares, and if they tank they will be guaranteed Tavares?

Are you suggesting Fletch is going to purposely tank for Tavares, and if they tank they will be guaranteed Tavares?

And is Tavares even the best pick?

I'm assuming the the Leafs didn't bring Fletcher in to make things worse even though things are being spun that way.

Tank through incompetance....interesting approach.

He's really put himself into an enviable position and fooled some on the way. He can't make things worse and if things don't get better, that was the intent.

Who cares if they don't get Tavares? Anyone slated in the top 5 is a franchise player. I'd be happy with any of them. I'm pretty sure this team is going to hit rock bottom this season, particularly if Sundin doesn't return.

Most importantly, Fletcher has promised to have a full slate of draft picks back for the 09 draft.

Unfortunately, people here prefer 5th/6th round picks more than actual bodies that have proven they can play.

Really, you'd rather have Pohl, Newbury, Devereaux, Bell, Gamache and Belak instead of Hollweg, Hagman and Mayers?
I'd rather have Tucker, Mitchell, Earl, Belak
Really, you didn't see Kubina show up out of shape and play like crap in the first half each of the last two seasons?
Nobody did. You're the only one and have no proof.
Really, you don't think that McCabe's play has been slipping in terms of defensive coverage and physical play?
His defense was better this season than the past few years.
Really, you think Tucker showed anywhere the same combativeness and competititiveness last season that he has shown in the past.
He looked better down the stretch than he has in some time.
Really, you think Ferguson had a plan and that it was sabotaged by his bosses?
I think his plan was shot down. Do you think Fletcher has controlled everything, even though he's followed the outline set for by the media?
Really, you think there are substantial prospects on the Marlies?
Stralman? Tlusty? Pogge? Yes. Earl, Mitchell, Foster, Boycem, Kronwall, Williams are not break-out prospects, but have NHL potential.
Really, you'd rather live in denial blaming injuries, coaching, bad luck, etc. and continue with the same core that couldn't even grab the last playoff spot even once in the last 3 seasons?
No, I'd rather move forward, moving pieces for good returns when we can, promoting from within and building through the draft. Not making moves for the hell of it in a mad scramble to change the room. A room that didn't need changing when it was winning, and can be replaced over time. The funny thing is Fletch has blamed the coaching and the core still consists of Toskala, Kubina, Kaberle, McCabe. Right now the core hasn't been replaced, it's been shrunk.

Who cares if they don't get Tavares? Anyone slated in the top 5 is a franchise player. I'd be happy with any of them. I'm pretty sure this team is going to hit rock bottom this season, particularly if Sundin doesn't return.

Most importantly, Fletcher has promised to have a full slate of draft picks back for the 09 draft.

Unfortunately, people here prefer 5th/6th round picks more than actual bodies that have proven they can play.


All top 5 players in the up coming draft will be franchise players? Wow, considering the draft is a year away, and the consitency of top 5 picks being franchise players is not as common as you seem to think, I like your opimism. I can think of many top 5 or 10 draft players that were going to be "franchise NHLers" that never lived up to that hype.

Leaf Nation is losing focus of what the rebuild is all about



What is the best thing that Cliff could do that would be viewed better then a top 5 pick in the next draft and hoping for John Tavares?

Are people viewing Fletcher's moves through the eyes that this is all about icing a team that looks like its not tanking but built to compete in the Tavares Derby ?

It appears that Leaf Nation fans can't see the forest for all the trees.

There are easier ways to get yourself a Tavares, Hedman quality team without trading addiitonal picks for garbage players. If Fletcher was doing this on purpose, he could just promote 5-6 Marlies. He's just making changes for the sake of changes, or he likes seeing his name on the TSN updates.

All top 5 players in the up coming draft will be franchise players? Wow, considering the draft is a year away, and the consitency of top 5 picks being franchise players is not as common as you seem to think, I like your opimism. I can think of many top 5 or 10 draft players that were going to be "franchise NHLers" that never lived up to that hype.


From all accounts it is a very deep draft and that potential does exist for the top 5. Of course there is always the possibility that all 5 of them bomb, but nearly all of the stats indicate that the top 10 of every draft go on to do well in the NHL.

Perhaps my definition of franchise player differs from yours. Someone like Sundin, for example, to me is a franchise player. He's not a superstar in the mold of an Ovechkin, but he's a solid, consistent producer and franchise leader.

I'd rather be optimistic than worry about things that are out of my control.

From all accounts it is a very deep draft and that potential does exist for the top 5. Of course there is always the possibility that all 5 of them bomb, but nearly all of the stats indicate that the top 10 of every draft go on to do well in the NHL.

Perhaps my definition of franchise player differs from yours. Someone like Sundin, for example, to me is a franchise player. He's not a superstar in the mold of an Ovechkin, but he's a solid, consistent producer and franchise leader.

I'd rather be optimistic than worry about things that are out of my control.

So would I. But I also would not assume that by tanking I will be guaranteed a great player come draft time either.

Boy, what I wouldn't give for an original thread on this board.:shakehead

Leaf Nation is losing focus of what the rebuild is all about



What is the best thing that Cliff could do that would be viewed better then a top 5 pick in the next draft and hoping for John Tavares?

Are people viewing Fletcher's moves through the eyes that this is all about icing a team that looks like its not tanking but built to compete in the Tavares Derby ?

It appears that Leaf Nation fans can't see the forest for all the trees.
You know what else would be great to get Tavares? Not trading a 3rd and a 5th for Mayers and Hollweg. Since Belak is clearly the worse player by your comparison, getting Belak back and sticking him on the 1st line is a much better bet to get Tavares without spending the picks: the ones you'd be crying over if it was anyone other than Cliff or Paul Maurice trading it away.

You know what else would be great to get Tavares? Not trading a 3rd and a 5th for Mayers and Hollweg. Since Belak is clearly the worse player by your comparison, getting Belak back and sticking him on the 1st line is a much better bet to get Tavares without spending the picks: the ones you'd be crying over if it was anyone other than Cliff or Paul Maurice trading it away.

It's all an elaborate ruse.....can't make that forest too obvious!!

Boy, what I wouldn't give for an original thread on this board.:shakehead

Wait for tomorrows "How is Fletcher doing?" thread.....it'll be fresh.

So would I. But I also would not assume that by tanking I will be guaranteed a great player come draft time either.

I know, but so many times on this board I witness a very serious overreaction to a lot of very minor moves. It's pretty baffling at how upset people get when they lose a 5th round draft pick (that belonged to the Pens and is more of a 6th round draft pick).

I don't think the Leafs are tanking. I think they've acknowledged the team won't do well next year, but it certainly won't be due to a lack of effort. All of the guys acquired (possible exception of Grabovski), are well known for their team first mentality.

Wait for tomorrows "How is Fletcher doing?" thread.....it'll be fresh.

Don't forget the ones on how many picks have we given up, who is Jeff Finger, who is going to be our next captain and why Stajan shouldn't be it and my personal favourite "Does Fletcher have a big trade up his sleeve?":cry:

Wake me in October!

Draft Schmaft eh?

As of now i think Cliffo has made the team less painful to watch but not really any better.Hopefully Wilson can institute a system that will keep the team competetive and if nothing else at least keep the boys heads screwed on straight so we don't blow the few 3rd period leads we get.That was an ugly team trademark last season.

Fletcher is a breath of fresh air and each day that passes he continues to erase the dark most unsuccessful time in Leaf history that was the embarrassing JFJ Era. By any and all means Cliff is doing what he was hired for to do and erase the mistakes of the past to clear the slate for a brighter future tomorrow.

MLSE BOG his bosses are so pleased with his work to date that they removed the interim GM tag from his title as they await the next GM and asked him to continue on cleaning house for them in the meantime. The take no prisoners approach is exactly what this organization needed and what Cliff promised us, and he is delivering in spades.. There still remains obstacles in his way that he plans of bulldozing over, and its only a matter of time for others to feel his wrath.

We're going to see a team that plays better defense and the goals against are going to come down.. One that has a lot more grit and bite to it and not butter soft,:hit: :fight:and its going to make them more competitive game in and game out. I expect to see a ton of effort and enthusiasm with no lack of motivation from the youngsters. Win or lose they're going to put up a nightly fight and make it an unpleasant experience for our opponents.

I am really looking forward to the beginning of a new Leaf season with anticipation and excitement like I haven't in years :hyper: :vhappy:. Watching all the kids play front line roles and get a ton icetime will bring me endless hours of enjoyment and entertainment.

For all that I have to give Cliff a big round thanks :cheers: and say keep up the good work. The once proud tradition that was the Maple Leafs is being restored right before our eyes. :hockey::stanley:
just like to say that's a great use of emoticons, really helps to drive home your naive simplistic views on all matters involing MLSE.;)

Outside of the actual draft, where I like for the most part his picks (at the suggestion of his scouts), I've been fairly underwhelmed.

He throws pick around like candy. Sure, it's not the 1sts that JFJ used to toss away, but 2nds, 3rds, 5ths are all useful picks for a team in a rebuild. Did we really need a 33 year old player like Mayers? How about a skillless goon like Hollweg?

These players can be traded at the deadline for picks again :)

just like to say that's a great use of emoticons, really helps to drive home your naive simplistic views on all matters involing MLSE.;)

It's the old smoke and mirrors trick, most see through it.

These players can be traded at the deadline for picks again :)
Does that not just put the leafs back another year though?

If you really want to full-on tank, then you dont trade a way picks for grinders. You keep your picks (which will all be high in their respective rounds if you are tanking) and let your AHL players have a shot. End of story. And why hasnt he traded Kubina already??

These players can be traded at the deadline for picks again :)

Yes, but what makes more sense, keeping a third round pick in 2008, draft a kid you like and let him develop in the minors and hope he can come up in 2-4 years in 2010-2012, or do you trade the pick for a 34 year old, keep him for 6 months to a year, trade him for maybe a third round pick in 2009 or 2010 and then hope that pick pans out 2-4 years down the road in 2011-2014? Doesn't make sense to prolong the rebuilding.

If you really want to full-on tank, then you dont trade a way picks for grinders. You keep your picks (which will all be high in their respective rounds if you are tanking) and let your AHL players have a shot. End of story. And why hasnt he traded Kubina already??

Yeah, in a real rebuild tank scenario, you poison your own roster with AHLers and you keep your picks and you get picks for guys who no longer fit. You get 8-10 picks in a draft, do your homework, and repeat for a couple of years. You don't worry about having a good bunch of veteran grinders.

Yeah, in a real rebuild tank scenario, you poison your own roster with AHLers and you keep your picks and you get picks for guys who no longer fit. You get 8-10 picks in a draft, do your homework, and repeat for a couple of years. You don't worry about having a good bunch of veteran grinders.

You can keep veteran grinders, just dont waste picks on aquiring more, unless they're extremely high in leadership quality, like Roberts or something.

If they like the youth at D and goal which I believe they do then pushing some picks back a year is not so bad if they are targeting forwards with those picks.

If they like the youth at D and goal which I believe they do then pushing some picks back a year is not so bad if they are targeting forwards with those picks.

That's a fair point, but this past draft was deep...

It's the old smoke and mirrors trick, most see through it.
amazingly enough though, alot don't.

That's a fair point, but this past draft was deep...

True. I'm not stating that is what I think they are actually doing... just reaching in a glass half full kinda way. :D

I just wish he'd stop throwing draft picks away.

The draft is a crapshoot. Ergo, if you have more picks, the better your odds at finding that 3rd or 4th round player that develops into something good. We should be going the other way - we should try to pick as many players as possible in each draft. It's the cheapest way to develop talent and we seem to be putting all our eggs in a smaller and smaller basket each year as 2nd and 3rd rounders are sent out the door for guys like Mayers and Grabovski.

But JFJ didn't develop talent that way and you can't fix that overnight without experiencing a disruption in the flow of prospects into your lineup. Aquiring young, developed prospects that could be here for 4, 5, 6 years or more is a necessary bridging measure until the cupboard can be restocked.

Grabovski is a more complete/NHL ready prospect than ANYONE in our system not named Kulemin. We have a shortage of those guys in the system - i.e. 23-24 year olds ready to get some ice in the NHL, with little left to prove in lower leagues. He's ready to play and develop with our other young forwards (Steen, Kulemin, Tlusty, and even Antropov) NOW. To me, that 3rd was the cost of cleaning up some of JFJ's mess.

I think some people are a little surprised at Fletcher's evaluation of the young talent. I think some assumed that the guys like Mitchell and Williams, Earl and Kronwall, toiling in AHL would automatically be on the team this coming season just because we're in a teardown and rebuild scenario. I don't think anyone really considered that Fletcher simply may not think too much of those players.

If you really want to full-on tank, then you dont trade a way picks for grinders. You keep your picks (which will all be high in their respective rounds if you are tanking) and let your AHL players have a shot. End of story. And why hasnt he traded Kubina already??


Fletcher doesn't want a full-on tank.


Also, many of our AHL players have had a shot and looked less-than-impressive doing it. Williams, Newbury and Earl, for example, were all underwhelming in their stint(s) with the club this past season.

I think some people are a little surprised at Fletcher's evaluation of the young talent. I think some assumed that the guys like Mitchell and Williams, Earl and Kronwall, toiling in AHL would automatically be on the team this coming season just because we're in a teardown and rebuild scenario. I don't think anyone really considered that Fletcher simply may not think too much of those players.

Well, when he took over the team, he did very clearly state that he didn't think there was much upcoming talent apart from the young players already on the big league club (Stralman and Tlusty). So I don't think it's much of a surprise.

Fletcher doesn't want a full-on tank.


Also, many of our AHL players have had a shot and looked less-than-impressive doing it. Williams, Newbury and Earl, for example, were all underwhelming in their stint(s) with the club this past season.


Actually Earl looked good to me.

Actually Earl looked good to me.

Okay. Cliff and I disagree, I think. :)

Also, many of our AHL players have had a shot and looked less-than-impressive doing it. Williams, Newbury and Earl, for example, were all underwhelming in their stint(s) with the club this past season.

That's the cold truth.

Fletcher doesn't want a full-on tank.


Also, many of our AHL players have had a shot and looked less-than-impressive doing it. Williams, Newbury and Earl, for example, were all underwhelming in their stint(s) with the club this past season.

They played smart and unspectacular hockey, just like they are supposed to as rookies.

Fletcher knows what hes doing, I know this is a prospects board, but the value of a 5th round pick is vastly overrated on these boards.

Fletcher knows what hes doing, I know this is a prospects board, but the value of a 5th round pick is vastly overrated on these boards.
Not so sure people are overly concerned with this 5th, seems like most just realize Hollweg is terrible and is likely to do more harm than good.I think anti-Hollweg sentiment would still exist if Cliffo got him for free.

How does spending $8.5m over the next four years on Hagman and Finger and Frogren help us get Tavares?

How does giving up a 2nd rounder, a 3rd rounder, and 2 5th rounders for Grabovski, Mayers, and Hollweg help us get Tavares?

Do you really think the Leafs or ANY of the other 29 teams are going into this year with the sole game plan of getting Tavares ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :shakehead:shakehead

We were 5 years away from respectability, now were 7 years, he's obviously told Peddie that he can make the playoffs, that's all it takes Peddie see's $$$$$, same management style of Quinn, Ferguson, and the same old Fletcher. We won't have a Pick come the next Draft. He was incompetent when he left here in 97 the league had passed him by, the very fact that the rag tag Coyote's paid him not to come to work say's it all, it's no coincidence that they improved last year after they cleared out their Front Office and brought in Maloney. He was brought in to talk the Fab Five into accepting trades he failed, and he didn't have plan B in place when it blew up on him. At the Deadline you get over paid, in the summer you have to over pay.

Yeah, I like to get drunk and rant, too.

At the Deadline you get over paid, in the summer you have to over pay.

I'm confused. Doesn't that mean someone is always overpaying?

They played smart and unspectacular hockey, just like they are supposed to as rookies.

But Jeff Finger can get you that at 3.5 mil a season!

No matter what Fletcher does 50% of leaf nation will love it and 50% won't.

The only trade or acquisition that would meet 100% approval would be for Fletcher to sign Sidney Crosby whenever he becoems available. And even then Leaf fans would complain about what was given up or the length of contract or the amount of money or all three. To meet 100% approval Fletcher would have to kidnap Crosby from Pittsburg, persuade Betman to void his contract with the Penguins and then hyptmotize Crosby so he agree to sign to the NHL minimum for 10 years. Even then I am sure someone will find a problem with that.

How about we trust the guy that revived this team in 1993 by acquiring our most prolific playoff scorer, Doug Gilmour, and turning a page for this franchise. For one I want to wait an entire year and see where we are after the 2009 draft before coming to any conclusion on Fletcher. He has earned at least that much.

As the Leafs are in the middle of their "rebuild" how has the senile fox done in your opinion thus far?

I don't like that he's trading away a lot of picks for marginal players. I still can't get over the waiving of Kyle Wellwood and the subsequent trading of a 2nd round draft pick for a player that looks to be inferior to Wellwood. I don't like the Jeff Finger contract one bit, I no doubt would have removed myself from the bidding long before the dollar signs were approaching $3 million. The four year contracts he handed out were somewhat puzzling to me considering he isn't going to be around for much longer. His handling of the McCabe situation is very amateurish. In fact, i would consider his handling of the entire "Muskoka 5" situation to be very second-rate at best.

Fletcher has stepped up to the plate and does this:

1. When Sundin refused to waive his no trade Fletcher said that the face of the franchise would be different, then after the season changed his mind and tried to lure Sundin back.

2.Tried to trade Kubina only to have him refuse to waive his NTC and after the season went on record saying that he change his mind and wants to keep Kubina and considers him a building block.

3. Said the new GM would get to hire his coach only to sign Wilson to a long term contract that the new GM will have to deal with.

4. Said that there would be as many as ten players 25 years of age or younger and goes out and aquires Mayers, Finger, Hagman, Joseph, and Frogen all of whom are older than 25. Only Grabovsky and Holweg (who I dont even count as a real player) are guys he picks up under 25.

5. Waives Wellwood (under 25) not even giving him a chance to redeem himself after an injury riddled year in what should be a season to rebuild the team.

6. Publicly says he has no use for McCabe thereby destroying any trade value.

7. Doesnt even consider exploring trading Antropov or Toskala whose value is as high as its ever been for picks/prospects.

8. Talks the talk about building for the future and then trades away seven picks in less than a month.

9. Says the Leafs are going to re-coop the picks traded away by the time of the next draft but if the leafs are battling for the last playoff spot do you really believe he'll trade away guys to recover those picks, he's already shown that you cant take him at his word.

The only good thing he's done is let Dave Morrison do his job and he's already traded one of those picks away. There was a reason he got fired from the Toronto in the first place.

___________________
Dont forget the milk.

Fletcher has stepped up to the plate and does this:

1. When Sundin refused to waive his no trade Fletcher said that the face of the franchise would be different, then after the season changed his mind and tried to lure Sundin back.

2.Tried to trade Kubina only to have him refuse to waive his NTC and after the season went on record saying that he change his mind and wants to keep Kubina and considers him a building block.

3. Said the new GM would get to hire his coach only to sign Wilson to a long term contract that the new GM will have to deal with.

4. Said that there would be as many as ten players 25 years of age or younger and goes out and aquires Mayers, Finger, Hagman, Joseph, and Frogen all of whom are older than 25. Only Grabovsky and Holweg (who I dont even count as a real player) are guys he picks up under 25.

5. Waives Wellwood (under 25) not even giving him a chance to redeem himself after an injury riddled year in what should be a season to rebuild the team.

6. Publicly says he has no use for McCabe thereby destroying any trade value.

7. Doesnt even consider exploring trading Antropov or Toskala whose value is as high as its ever been for picks/prospects.

8. Talks the talk about building for the future and then trades away seven picks in less than a month.

9. Says the Leafs are going to re-coop the picks traded away by the time of the next draft but if the leafs are battling for the last playoff spot do you really believe he'll trade away guys to recover those picks, he's already shown that you cant take him at his word.

The only good thing he's done is let Dave Morrison do his job and he's already traded one of those picks away. There was a reason he got fired from the Toronto in the first place.

___________________
Dont forget the milk.

I like your post and to add a bit to it from another thread I posted.

Trading 2 picks to move up two places in the draft (and I love Schenn) trading a 2nd and a prospect for Grabovsky, signing a relative unknown (Finger) for 3.5 million, trading a 5th for a player that is known to be a dirty cheap shot artist, trading a 3rd for a journyman
getting rid of Tucker (who was injured for the most part) totally alienating Bryan McCabe which will reduce any return the Leafs get if he agrees to waive his NMC, the Sundin fiasco and the worst NOT telling Maurice to sit Toskala (yes, the GM has that power) if Raycroft played the way we'd expect, we wouldn't have had to give up those 2 picks to move up 2 and if Raycroft stood on his head, there was the possiblilty Cliff could have got something for him at the trade deadline.
And anyone that thinks Cliff will be able to turn around at next years deadline and trade some of these guys for more than what he's paid for them, is, well, dreaming.


PS: I predict the Leafs WILL NOT get a lottery pick in 2009.

He's done pretty much what he's said he would do.

Change the core of this team - True.

This team doesn't have a core anymore.

I like your post and to add a bit to it from another thread I posted.

Trading 2 picks to move up two places in the draft (and I love Schenn) trading a 2nd and a prospect for Grabovsky, signing a relative unknown (Finger) for 3.5 million, trading a 5th for a player that is known to be a dirty cheap shot artist, trading a 3rd for a journyman
getting rid of Tucker (who was injured for the most part) totally alienating Bryan McCabe which will reduce any return the Leafs get if he agrees to waive his NMC, the Sundin fiasco and the worst NOT telling Maurice to sit Toskala (yes, the GM has that power) if Raycroft played the way we'd expect, we wouldn't have had to give up those 2 picks to move up 2 and if Raycroft stood on his head, there was the possiblilty Cliff could have got something for him at the trade deadline.
And anyone that thinks Cliff will be able to turn around at next years deadline and trade some of these guys for more than what he's paid for them, is, well, dreaming.


PS: I predict the Leafs WILL NOT get a lottery pick in 2009.

And I'm trying to be fair about the Finger signing because I've never seen him play so to me it's not right to past judgement on that move as well as Hagman but to me he hasn't done anything to prove to me that he wants to rebuild the team the right way which is blow it up completely and get as many picks/prospects with as much cap space as possible. Do people understand that if Sundin comes back (God I hope not) that we will have pretty much the same team as last year? :shakehead

Fletcher knows what hes doing, I know this is a prospects board, but the value of a 5th round pick is vastly overrated on these boards.

It's saying one thing and then doing the opposite that has most people upset.

Well, when he took over the team, he did very clearly state that he didn't think there was much upcoming talent apart from the young players already on the big league club (Stralman and Tlusty). So I don't think it's much of a surprise.

It shouldn't have been, no... but it clearly was to some, judging by the amount of squawking about Fletcher.

And I'm trying to be fair about the Finger signing because I've never seen him play so to me it's not right to past judgement on that move as well as Hagman but to me he hasn't done anything to prove to me that he wants to rebuild the team the right way which is blow it up completely and get as many picks/prospects with as much cap space as possible. Do people understand that if Sundin comes back (God I hope not) that we will have pretty much the same team as last year? :shakehead

The same team as last year except without Tucker, Raycroft, Wellwood, Belak, Kilger, Gill, Woz, Bates, none of whom had a positive impact on last years team.

and most probably McCabe and possibly Kubina, who should bring in the youth everyone is talking about.

So the question is, is any of this true? I'll wait for a few months of the season to decide.

Finger>Gill
Frogren>Woz
Grabovsky>Wellwood
Holleweg>Belak
Hagman>Tucker
Mayers>Kilger
Joseph>Raycroft

and also
Kulemin>Bates

looking from the other standpoint, if Mats doesn't come back, and they trade McCabe, they have a much different team than last year.

rebuild = building draft picks in higher rounds.

It shouldn't have been, no... but it clearly was to some, judging by the amount of squawking about Fletcher.

Fletcher's actions are sending a pretty loud and definitive reality check to some fans in Leafs Nation that have continually argued and disputed the strength of the prospect pool, and how good they believe some of the players and the team is overall.

The larger the team turnover and the more the prospect puddle is ignored the louder the squawking becomes in opposition. Not because it reflects poorly on Fletcher's actions but rather it contradicts their own opinions on this subject.

It shouldn't have been, no... but it clearly was to some, judging by the amount of squawking about Fletcher.

Can't imagine anyone thinking we have great prospects, but my problem(and I think others) with Fletcher has nothing to do with that.

The larger the team turnover and the more the prospect puddle is ignored the louder the squawking becomes in opposition. Not because it reflects poorly on Fletcher's actions but rather it contradicts their own opinions on this subject.

Or maybe it says something about Fletcher's ability to evaluate young talent?

Or maybe it says something about Fletcher's ability to evaluate young talent?

Fletcher is not making these decisions alone as there are other scouts and consultants in the organization that are advising him and providing input. Gilmour, Penny, Jackson, Coates, Bergman, Nieuwendyk etc and many amateur scouts and others.

It only makes common sense that Fletcher wouldn't be forced to trade picks or buy what they believe depth marginal players if the Leafs had those similar resources in house to pull from.

Its a bit like a court case here, when all exhausting has been done and one can no longer dispute the evidence then the actions turn to try and discredit the witness.

Fletcher is not making these decisions alone as there are other scouts and consultants in the organization that are advising him and providing input. Gilmour, Penny, Jackson, Coates, Bergman, Nieuwendyk etc and many amateur scouts and others.

It only makes common sense that Fletcher wouldn't be forced to trade picks or buy what they believe depth marginal players if the Leafs had those similar resources in house to pull from.

But why is he going for short term needs at the expense of future assets in a supposed rebuild? The 'culture' of the team is a nice catchphrase, but planning for the future is nice too...

But why is he going for short term needs at the expense of future assets in a supposed rebuild? The 'culture' of the team is a nice catchphrase, but planning for the future is nice too...

He is building for the future just not everyone is seeing it but his plan is rather transparent.

Fletcher has identified the key components of his rebuild as this all about Stralman and Kulemin and players like Tlusty and other high end prospects. Its even about young players like Steen and Carlo as part of the rebuild process.

The reason Fletcher is bringing in players like Mayers and Hollweg is to provide security and comfort for our high end prospects and provide them an environment where they can best develop in, and not play every shift in fear of being abused by an opponent. The defensive players and the new coach and system designed to play better team defense and create a stable environment for the prospects that matter to a rebuild. Young players on steep learning curves come at a cost that includes mistakes.. Fletcher is trying to balance out the peeks and valleys of that process to make a more consistent team and shelters the young players through system..

None of Fletcher's additions by trade nor UFA season are any threat to Kulemin or Stralman in regards to taking their jobs away but rather making their jobs easier.

In fact Fletcher is even removing vets like Tucker and McCabe that stand in their way on the depth chart in order to open up more ATOI and opportunity for young players. Fletcher is willing to even do it at any cost possible including buyouts to ensure that development of our significant prospects is the focus and hopefully successful undertaking in the rebuild plan. The plan is for Kulemin and Tlusty to take Tucker's spot on the PP up front and Stralman and Colaiacovo replacing McCabe on the point on the backend.

Fletcher's goal is to promote these youngster from secondary roles to primary ones and develop a new young core around them for the benefit of the future. This is no longer Tucker or McCabe or Sundin team its now Antropov and Steen and other young players to take over and carry the team going forward and passing them the torch that was carried by other older vets in the past..

Fletcher's plan to me seems to be the perfect text book rebuild by focusing on the players that are needed to be developed. He wants the young players to start taking ownership of the team and he is simply setting the stage for them to succeed

People keep focusing on the little things and his actions and seem to be missing the bigger picture here of what he is trying to do. It comes at a price to change a team that was built believing it was competing for a CUP to one that is rebuilding and regrouping and about to evolve into one that can compete in the future.

Fletcher's actions are sending a pretty loud and definitive reality check to some fans in Leafs Nation that have continually argued and disputed the strength of the prospect pool, and how good they believe some of the players and the team is overall.

Fletcher saying up to 10 players 25 and under in the lineup next season is what I heard.

But why is he going for short term needs at the expense of future assets in a supposed rebuild? The 'culture' of the team is a nice catchphrase, but planning for the future is nice too...

Quality over quantity.

The phrase has been used and abused but definitely holds true in our current rebuild.

The Leafs need real building blocks, and it appears they got one in Schenn at the draft. It's a start. Fletcher got rid of Belak, Kilger, Raycroft and Tucker -- the four worst players on the team last year other than the redoubtable Woz. They were replaced with players who were for the most part some combination of younger, faster, better defensively, and harder working(Hagman, Finger, Hollweg, Mayers)

It's hilarious that the same people who pooh-poohed the pick The Idiot traded away for Perrault, for example, and said it meant nothing because a second round pick has only x % chance of panning out, and bla bla bla, are now shaking their heads at Fletcher for trading a 5th(that is going to be basically a high 6th) This place is really funny sometimes.

The only thing post-Junior so far I really disagree with was cutting loose Wellwood for free and spending assets for a less accomplished player in Grabovski, a guy who can't even make the roster of a team we knocked out of playoff contention just the season before this one. I like the vast majority of you had never heard of Jeff Finger before this season, nor do I think Hollweg is a slam-dunk to work out. Maybe Wilson can put a collar on him.

Fletcher has plenty of time to get picks back, and obviously there are trades coming looking at the roster. After the way Ferguson was defended around here for years, a far more experienced and intelligent hockey man deserves more than a few scant months to do his work.

The Leafs need real building blocks, and it appears they got one in Schenn at the draft. It's a start. Fletcher got rid of Belak, Kilger, Raycroft and Tucker -- the four worst players on the team last year other than the redoubtable Woz. They were replaced with players who were for the most part some combination of younger, faster, better defensively, and harder working(Hagman, Finger, Hollweg, Mayers)

It's hilarious that the same people who pooh-poohed the pick The Idiot traded away for Perrault, for example, and said it meant nothing because a second round pick has only x % chance of panning out, and bla bla bla, are now shaking their heads at Fletcher for trading a 5th(that is going to be basically a high 6th) This place is really funny sometimes.

The only thing post-Junior so far I really disagree with was cutting loose Wellwood for free and spending assets for a less accomplished player in Grabovski, a guy who can't even make the roster of a team we knocked out of playoff contention just the season before this one. I like the vast majority of you had never heard of Jeff Finger before this season, nor do I think Hollweg is a slam-dunk to work out. Maybe Wilson can put a collar on him.

Fletcher has plenty of time to get picks back, and obviously there are trades coming looking at the roster. After the way Ferguson was defended around here for years, a far more experienced and intelligent hockey man deserves more than a few scant months to do his work.

:handclap:

It's hilarious that the same people who pooh-poohed the pick The Idiot traded away for Perrault, for example, and said it meant nothing because a second round pick has only x % chance of panning out, and bla bla bla, are now shaking their heads at Fletcher for trading a 5th(that is going to be basically a high 6th) This place is really funny sometimes.

I'm going to have to ask for some names here because it sure sounds like you're just making **** up. Personally I do distinctly remember panning the Perreault trade considering a center was the last thing we needed at the time and it wasn't really that popular to begin with.

Quality over quantity.

The phrase has been used and abused but definitely holds true in our current rebuild.

Uh... ok. Where's the quality, again? We sure have plenty of quantity.

We've got an average goalie, a decent goalie prospect who may one day turn out to be better, a potential franchise defensive defenseman, a current star offensive defenceman, and an enormous helping of second/third line forwards. This is barely anything to build off of. It's not like we've got a 9.0+ prospect at each position.

Fletcher has plenty of time to get picks back, and obviously there are trades coming looking at the roster. After the way Ferguson was defended around here for years, a far more experienced and intelligent hockey man deserves more than a few scant months to do his work.

Nonsense. A full draft and most of an offseason is plenty long enough to make a serious impact on a team. Trades don't happen in a vacuum but at the same time that same excuse was used to justify the Raycroft trade, which from the beginning was an awful piece of business.

And I fundamentally disagree with the notion that swapping guys like Tucker, Kilger and Belak out for similar facsimiles thereof is going to prove to be anything other than a waste of time, cap space and assets.

We've got an average goalie, a decent goalie prospect who may one day turn out to be better, a potential franchise defensive defenseman, a current star offensive defenceman, and an enormous helping of second/third line forwards. This is barely anything to build off of. It's not like we've got a 9.0+ prospect at each position.

The quality started this season, in Schenn and possibly a few others we managed to grab in the later rounds. Fergy traded four out of the last five 1st round picks. You don't recover from that overnight.

Did you expect the entire restock to happen all in one summer?

And I fundamentally disagree with the notion that swapping guys like Tucker, Kilger and Belak out for similar facsimiles thereof is going to prove to be anything other than a waste of time, cap space and assets.


Belak barely played. Cliff got a 5th for him and turned it into a guy who HAS taken a regular shift on a better team than the Leafs and shown some good chemistry with Moore in the past. He makes less money than Belak, as well. Fletcher was simply selling off whatever he could so he could bring in the guys HE wanted. I don't particularly like Hollweg, and I'm not sure it was great move, but Belak was hardly essential to the lineup. One out, one in = no real harm.

Tucker (injuries or not) needs a change of scenery. He simply doesn't play with that edge he used to have. Maybe he'll get it back in Colorado. Here, he was taking up a top-6 wing spot from Tlusty, Kulemin, or Steen and making a tonne of money to do it. So he pots a few on the powerplay? I imagine a kid with a good shot - like Kulemin for instance - could stand at the side of the net and bang a few in. Furthermore, Darcy is not suited to a 3rd line role if he can't/won't play physically. On a Wilson-coached team, he's especially unsuitable because he doesn't play well in his end. If the rumours are true and his knees are shot, then getting out while the getting was good is a great move even if it costs a low-percentage of a rising cap. Presumably the money will be made up by the lower salaries of the younger players who will be taking the top-6minutes and PP time that Tucker was getting.

Kilger may never play again. This is another case of Fletcher getting what he could and turning it into another player (Mayers) with intangibles that Kilger never had. It was his lack of motivation and leadership that saw him out of Edmonton and Montreal. He put together some pretty good seasons in Toronto, but wasn't a core player. Mayer is going to be expected to be an important part of the attitude and identity of the club.

I guess what's funny to me is that people want a rebuild and yet are suprised to see changes and continue to calculate based on 1-1 relationships of player "A" out and player "B" in. That's not a rebuild. Different types of players playing different roles in a newly designed system is a rebuild; and that is what is happening.

I guess what's funny to me is that people want a rebuild and yet are suprised to see changes and continue to calculate based on 1-1 relationships of player "A" out and player "B" in. That's not a rebuild. Different types of players playing different roles in a newly designed system is a rebuild; and that is what is happening.

Excellent point Courage especially on the 1 to 1 relationship. :handclap:

I find it impossible to grade players brought in here without actually seeing them play even a single game under Ron Wilson.

Excellent point Courage especially on the 1 to 1 relationship. :handclap:

I find it impossible to grade players brought in here without actually seeing them play even a single game under Ron Wilson.

That's it exactly. It isn't "Belak for Hollweg" and "Kilger for Mayers". There is a connection by way of the picks, but it isn't a strict change of parts. At the deadline, Fletcher sold invested capital for liquidity. In fact, at the time, it wasn't expected that he'd be the long-term GM. He sold what he had to sell and got some bargaining chips for the new GM (it turned out to be him) to put together a new roster with a new direction, new identity, new system, etc. In consult with his new guys (Coates, Wilson, etc.) they are literally rebuilding the club using players that they feel fit in with the new way of doing things. That doesn't mean that Kilger or Belak couldn't work in this system -- in fact I think a guy like Kilger could be very useful. But, at the time he was an expendable asset that brought in possibilities.

Fletcher was simply selling off whatever he could so he could bring in the guys HE wanted.


There seems to be an incredible lack of understanding of that very point around these parts. Fletcher is remolding this team the way he and his staff feel will be successful down the road.


I guess what's funny to me is that people want a rebuild and yet are suprised to see changes and continue to calculate based on 1-1 relationships of player "A" out and player "B" in. That's not a rebuild. Different types of players playing different roles in a newly designed system is a rebuild; and that is what is happening.

Well said. Most around here really don't have the stomach for it, even though they passionately argue for a rebuild.

What's that old saying? Be careful what you wish for?

Excellent point Courage especially on the 1 to 1 relationship. :handclap:

I find it impossible to grade players brought in here without actually seeing them play even a single game under Ron Wilson.

that's just it.

No one knows exactly how this is going to play out, so why get all worked up over the unknown? I have to laugh at those who can honestly call what the Leafs are doing a "massive failure". Talk about premature.

:help:

that's just it.

No one knows exactly how this is going to play out, so why get all worked up over the unknown? I have to laugh at those who can honestly call what the Leafs are doing a "massive failure". Talk about premature.

:help:

I almost never disagree with you cob, but i do here. Fletch has not done one single thing to improve this hcokey club, aquire more picks and prospects, and swap players for similar players. Time will tell if things work out, and I most certainly hope I am wrong, but moves like waiving Wellwood and giving up a second and a prospect for an unproven NHLer makes no sense, as well as trading Belak, buying out Tucker, but then giving up a 5th to get some team toughness in a marginal at best NHLer in Hollweg. Like I said, I have no problem admitting to being wrong, but Fletch has been a disapointment in my eyes.

I almost never disagree with you cob, but i do here. Fletch has not done one single thing to improve this hcokey club, aquire more picks and prospects, and swap players for similar players. Time will tell if things work out, and I most certainly hope I am wrong, but moves like waiving Wellwood and giving up a second and a prospect for an unproven NHLer makes no sense, as well as trading Belak, buying out Tucker, but then giving up a 5th to get some team toughness in a marginal at best NHLer in Hollweg. Like I said, I have no problem admitting to being wrong, but Fletch has been a disapointment in my eyes.

I couldn't agree more. I don't think it's that guys don't have the stomach for the rebuild. I also don't think it's unfair to make the comparison's. Maybe most of us were expected the moves to look a whole lot different. Most if not all of us were expecting to see us picking up picks and young guys via trades. The only trades Cliff has been able to make until now have all involved our picks and seem to replace the players that we moved out at the deadline or by buy out. They are new faces and it is a change of the organization. The thing is that so far it doesn't really seem to have been for the better. He must still have some trades coming but it seems to me now that the longer he waits the less return he's gonna get.

Excellent point Courage especially on the 1 to 1 relationship. :handclap:

I find it impossible to grade players brought in here without actually seeing them play even a single game under Ron Wilson.

Case in point .. Leafs were among the worst PK teams in the NHL ..

Leafs new PK #1 unit Hagman --Mayers -- Finger -- Frogren & Goalie.

All these players brought in to fix areas that needed improvement. That improvement comes as how they are not only as individuals but as a group at various times .. If the PK goes from bottom 10 to top 10 then do the changes validate the need for them?. Nicklas Hagman was Top 5 in the NHL with 4 SH goals and 5 points.. Likely fans will continue to blame Fletcher for bad personnel decisions and then credit Wilson for the PK turnaround, and miss the point that its the players supplied that allowed the coach to succeed.

Hagman ----- Moore ----- Mayers is the Leafs new checking line .. They are going to be used by the coach to neutralize the effectiveness of our opponents particularly their star offensive players. The better job they do in keeping Heatley, Kovalchuk, Kovalev, Lecavalier, Crosby etc in check the better the team has to be competitive in the game with a better chance to win. This new trio are essentially the modern day version of Mark Osborne -- Peter Zezel-- Billy Berg.

Its a rebuild and it seems that many fans have no understanding of what that means.

This team is not making changes that takes them closer to a CUP today, they're regrouping, reorganizing, restructuring and rebuilding in hopes that it will hopefully take them closer to Lord Stanley in the future. Judging the effectiveness of the changes in the present demonstrates that those fans simply don't understand the process and intent.

Case in point .. Leafs were among the worst PK teams in the NHL ..

Leafs new PK #1 unit Hagman --Mayers -- Finger -- Frogren & Goalie.

All these players brought in to fix areas that needed improvement. That improvement comes as how they are not only as individuals but as a group at various times .. If the PK goes from bottom 10 to top 10 then do the changes validate the need for them?.

Hagman ----- Moore ----- Mayers is the Leafs new checking line .. They are going to be used by the coach to neutralize the effectiveness of our opponents particularly their star offensive players. The better job they do in keeping Heatley, Kovalchuk, Kovalev, Lecavalier, Crosby etc in check the better the team has to be competitive in the game with a chance to win. This new trio are essentially the modern day version of Mark Osborne -- Peter Zezel-- Billy Berg.

Its a rebuild and it seems that many fans have no understanding of what that means.

This team is not making changes that takes them closer to a CUP today, they're regrouping, reorganizing, restructuring and rebuilding in hopes that it will hopefully take them closer to Lord Stanley in the future. Judging the effectiveness of the changes in the present demonstrates that those fans simply don't understand the process and intent.

Thankfully you're here 18 hours a day, 365 days a year to help the rest of us idiots understand.

The Leafs need real building blocks, and it appears they got one in Schenn at the draft. It's a start.

I think that Stralman will be better than Schenn.

I think that Stralman will be better than Schenn.

I see them as our future McCabe/Kaberle.

Fletch has not done one single thing to improve this hcokey club, aquire more picks and prospects, and swap players for similar players.

Fair enough, but why would you want to swap players for similar players? The whole point, as Fletcher has stated numerous times, is to go in a different direction, which means players that, as a whole, DON'T resemble the teams of the past.

In terms of draft picks, what's the rush? The draft is a year away. I don't get it.

At this point in the game, you can only judge the team on paper, which is far as I can remember can never accurately describe the the performance of a hockey team on the ice.

i wouldn't get bent out of shape about it. Fletch has done everything he said he would do. The team is drastically different, and has a whole different feel to it. There will undoubtedly be more moves throughout he course of the season as well.

I don't see how anyone can think he's done a "Great" job when he hasn't gotten us anything for the NTC's.

Sure he's making the team different but hat doesn't seem like any great accomplishment.

Thankfully you're here 18 hours a day, 365 days a year to help the rest of us idiots understand.

It's like having God himself on retainer isn't it?

OT - how many picks do we have in 2009?

. Fletch has not done one single thing to improve this hockey club, acquire more picks and prospects, and swap players for similar players.

Or are you just not seeing it ?.

Nicklas Hagman and Darcy Tucker both had/have $3 mil Cap cost.

Hagman recorded 19 ES goals 4 PP and 4 SH goals in 2007-08 season .. He was credited with 8 GW goals..

Hagman's 5-5 ES goals of 19 >> Tucker's total goals 18 ..

Hagman's 4 SH goals was Top 5 in the NHL last season and Leafs PK was among the worst in the NHL .. Only Patrick Sharp (7), Daniel Alfredsson (7), Rene Bourque (5), Mike Richards (5) had more.

Hagman's 8 Game winning goals placed him #6 in the NHL overall with only Alexander Ovechkin (11), Jeremy Roenick (10), Jarome Iginla (9), Thomas Vanek (9) and Brad Boyes (9)

Hagman's 27 goals last year was more then any Leafs except Sundin who had 32.

Hagman had a shooting % of 15.2 % on 178 shots and 27 goals. That put him #31 in the NHL overall and most important most of his goals come 5-5 or SH ..

Now if a team can spend $3 mil Cap on a 28 year old 2-way versatile player like Hagman or use it on 33 year old Darcy Tucker and address the most areas of need and effectiveness ES, PK and PP. Who would be the better choice?

Seriously you don't see a single thing ?

Or are you just not seeing it ?.

Nicklas Hagman and Darcy Tucker both had/have $3 mil Cap cost.

Hagman recorded 19 ES goals 4 PP and 4 SH goals in 2007-08 season .. He was credited with 8 GW goals..

Hagman's 5-5 ES goals of 19 >> Tucker's total goals 18 ..

Hagman's 4 SH goals was Top 5 in the NHL last season and Leafs PK was among the worst in the NHL .. Only Patrick Sharp (7), Daniel Alfredsson (7), Rene Bourque (5), Mike Richards (5) had more.

Hagman's 8 Game winning goals placed him #6 in the NHL overall with only Alexander Ovechkin (11), Jeremy Roenick (10), Jarome Iginla (9), Thomas Vanek (9) and Brad Boyes (9)

Hagman's 27 goals last year was more then any Leafs except Sundin who had 32.

Hagman had a shooting % of 15.2 % on 178 shots and 27 goals. That put him #31 in the NHL overall and most important most of his goals come 5-5 or SH ..

Now if a team can spend $3 mil Cap on a 28 year old 2-way versatile player like Hagman or use it on 33 year old Darcy Tucker and address the most areas of need and effectiveness ES, PK and PP. Who would be the better choice?

Seriously you don't see a single thing ? Mess he likes to argue for the sake of it, wants to be like the guy who has a 1st name like a animal, 2nd half like a tree. If I say his name I get bad emails, ;)

It's like having God himself on retainer isn't it?

:laugh: Although even God sees the sun from time to time.

Mess he likes to argue for the sake of it, wants to be like the guy who has a 1st name like a animal, 2nd half like a tree. If I say his name I get bad emails, ;)

Tiger Woods??? I don't get it.

Tiger Woods??? I don't get it.pretty good, points for you

Or are you just not seeing it ?.

Nicklas Hagman and Darcy Tucker both had/have $3 mil Cap cost.

Hagman recorded 19 ES goals 4 PP and 4 SH goals in 2007-08 season .. He was credited with 8 GW goals..

Hagman's 5-5 ES goals of 19 >> Tucker's total goals 18 ..

Hagman's 4 SH goals was Top 5 in the NHL last season and Leafs PK was among the worst in the NHL .. Only Patrick Sharp (7), Daniel Alfredsson (7), Rene Bourque (5), Mike Richards (5) had more.

Hagman's 8 Game winning goals placed him #6 in the NHL overall with only Alexander Ovechkin (11), Jeremy Roenick (10), Jarome Iginla (9), Thomas Vanek (9) and Brad Boyes (9)

Hagman's 27 goals last year was more then any Leafs except Sundin who had 32.

Hagman had a shooting % of 15.2 % on 178 shots and 27 goals. That put him #31 in the NHL overall and most important most of his goals come 5-5 or SH ..

Now if a team can spend $3 mil Cap on a 28 year old 2-way versatile player like Hagman or use it on 33 year old Darcy Tucker and address the most areas of need and effectiveness ES, PK and PP. Who would be the better choice?

Seriously you don't see a single thing ?

I think Hagman is a good addition to the team (obviously the stats you've listed support your point) however it's the asset management that I question. For one, you have to add the additional cap hit the Leafs have taken by buying out Tucker. Maybe Hagman is a better player, but there may have been a chance Tucker may have waived his NTC over time and the Leafs would have gotten an asset in return. The same could be said about McCabe. IMO, Tucker, McCabe, Kubina, Kaberle, and Sundin could net the Leafs great assets in return, however as we all know Sundin refuses to be traded which is his right, Kubina is available to be traded and with a little less than a month left to go, and less dancing partners available it doesn't look to promising, MLSE bought out Tucker and then addressed the gritty need lost in Tucker by aquiring Hollweg and gave up a pick and take a 1 mil hit for 6 years to get rid of tucker, all this McCabe fiasco sure hasn't helped his trade value, and Kaberle looks to not want to move. The point being I don't think Fletch has done a good job handling these situations, time will tell of course but for know i'm not impressed. The same can be said about waiving Wellwood and the aquisition of the prospect from Montreal, it all looks like lateral moves.

Mess he likes to argue for the sake of it, wants to be like the guy who has a 1st name like a animal, 2nd half like a tree. If I say his name I get bad emails, ;)

Do you need a tissue?

This thread is spiraling downhill. :biglaugh:

The improvement of character alone is reason enough to not consider these moves lateral.

As for trading picks, as long as there is not an overpay, it's ok to trade picks, as long as you don't trade the unknown picks for unknown commodities, which is the risk in the Grabovsky trade. We will have to see how that turns out, but I'm putting my money on Grabovsky over Wellwood as the one who ends up with a more productive career. I think his skill-set in the shootout alone will be enough to give him a long, productive career. He is the first Leaf player since the addition of the shootout that I consider to be a lock to take a shot if the Leafs end up in a shootout. Even Mats was never overly impressive in the shootout.

As for the UFA picks, well, they are guys who are team first, competitive guys who will give you exactly what you expect from them. The coach knows, when he puts them on the ice what they can and will do on a consistent basis.

Or are you just not seeing it ?.

Nicklas Hagman and Darcy Tucker both had/have $3 mil Cap cost.

Hagman recorded 19 ES goals 4 PP and 4 SH goals in 2007-08 season .. He was credited with 8 GW goals..

Hagman's 5-5 ES goals of 19 >> Tucker's total goals 18 ..

Hagman's 4 SH goals was Top 5 in the NHL last season and Leafs PK was among the worst in the NHL .. Only Patrick Sharp (7), Daniel Alfredsson (7), Rene Bourque (5), Mike Richards (5) had more.

Hagman's 8 Game winning goals placed him #6 in the NHL overall with only Alexander Ovechkin (11), Jeremy Roenick (10), Jarome Iginla (9), Thomas Vanek (9) and Brad Boyes (9)

Hagman's 27 goals last year was more then any Leafs except Sundin who had 32.

Hagman had a shooting % of 15.2 % on 178 shots and 27 goals. That put him #31 in the NHL overall and most important most of his goals come 5-5 or SH ..

Now if a team can spend $3 mil Cap on a 28 year old 2-way versatile player like Hagman or use it on 33 year old Darcy Tucker and address the most areas of need and effectiveness ES, PK and PP. Who would be the better choice?

Seriously you don't see a single thing ?

So if he has all these wonderful stats why do you have him on the checking line. You'd like to take the highest point producer on our team and put him on the checking line. Why? Wouldn't it seem reasonable to have him on our #1 line. Especially with the money he's getting. I don't have a problem with his signing but I do have a problem with your projection of his role on the team. I'd rather not reward his strong play with less minutes on a garbage line.

So if he has all these wonderful stats why do you have him on the checking line. You'd like to take the highest point producer on our team and put him on the checking line. Why? Wouldn't it seem reasonable to have him on our #1 line. Especially with the money he's getting. I don't have a problem with his signing but I do have a problem with your projection of his role on the team. I'd rather not reward his strong play with less minutes on a garbage line.

He got those goals playing a third line/checking role for the Stars last season. He's not a natural goal scorer or playmaker, but makes chances from dogging defences and his speed. I suspect he'll come down a little in the goal department this year, partly because of talent and partly because of the role Wilson will have him play.

This thread is spiraling downhill. :biglaugh:hey whats with the shortform;)

hey whats with the shortform;)

I'm usually working when I'm on here.

To me it comes down to the D.
If fletcher keeps Kubina and McCabe and sundin comes back, what has he accomplished?

Grabovski for Wellwood,2nd, 5th?
Myers for Kilger
Holwg for Belak
Joseph for Raycroft?
Tucker for Hagman
Gill for Finger......
What the hell is the point of that?
Kubina, McCabe and Sundin are the keys to the rebuild. Always have been. At this point to me he hasnt really done anything.....

To me it comes down to the D.
If fletcher keeps Kubina and McCabe and sundin comes back, what has he accomplished?

Grabovski for Wellwood,2nd, 5th?
Myers for Kilger
Holwg for Belak
Joseph for Raycroft?
Tucker for Hagman
Gill for Finger......
What the hell is the point of that?
Kubina, McCabe and Sundin are the keys to the rebuild. Always have been. At this point to me he hasnt really done anything.....

Sundin refused to be traded and became a Free agent, McCabe refuses to be traded (something Fletcher is working on), Kubina is someone Fletcher so far seems to feel is valuable to a rebuild.

What do you honestly expect him to do?

Sundin refused to be traded and became a Free agent, McCabe refuses to be traded (something Fletcher is working on), Kubina is someone Fletcher so far seems to feel is valuable to a rebuild.

What do you honestly expect him to do?

Not put Wellwood on waivers, not to trade our 2nd for a long shot, not to trade people then bring in replacements that are basically equal in cost but only marginally better.

Not put Wellwood on waivers, not to trade our 2nd for a long shot

And you consider 2nd round picks sure thing, second line centres?

If fletcher keeps Kubina and McCabe and sundin comes back, what has he accomplished?


That would seriously screw things up and we could possibly lose out on a franchise prospect next summer. My hope is all three are gone by the start of the season.

I think Hagman is a good addition to the team (obviously the stats you've listed support your point) however it's the asset management that I question. For one, you have to add the additional cap hit the Leafs have taken by buying out Tucker. Maybe Hagman is a better player, but there may have been a chance Tucker may have waived his NTC over time and the Leafs would have gotten an asset in return. The same could be said about McCabe. IMO, Tucker, McCabe, Kubina, Kaberle, and Sundin could net the Leafs great assets in return, however as we all know Sundin refuses to be traded which is his right, Kubina is available to be traded and with a little less than a month left to go, and less dancing partners available it doesn't look to promising, MLSE bought out Tucker and then addressed the gritty need lost in Tucker by aquiring Hollweg and gave up a pick and take a 1 mil hit for 6 years to get rid of tucker, all this McCabe fiasco sure hasn't helped his trade value, and Kaberle looks to not want to move. The point being I don't think Fletch has done a good job handling these situations, time will tell of course but for know i'm not impressed. The same can be said about waiving Wellwood and the aquisition of the prospect from Montreal, it all looks like lateral moves.

Respectfully, I'm sorry but I don't have a lot of sympathy for those people that make the loudest noise supporting Tucker, McCabe and Sundin that they have valid clauses in their contracts and have every right to do what they are doing.. In all three cases they hurt and continue to hurt the Leafs by those positions that you fully support them for.

However when MLSE does what their allowed to within their rights of the CBA by asking them to move on, wanting to trade them, and last resort buy them out then you make a big fuss. You blame the GM for poor asset management that now Tucker $$ cost against the Cap and that hurts your Leafs..Or Fletcher needs to trade assets for Gravobski, because Sundin stubbornly twice refused to help out the team he claims he loves, or even provide the organization an answer to what he was doing to help them plan with or without him. Fletcher wouldn't have needed to trade picks for Grabovski as he would have come in return to Sundin rights.. If McCabe was willing to work with MLSE then we wouldn't have this situation.. Its McCabe being the stubborn, defiant employee that is making the situation worse then it is, than with others teams players with NTC/NMC clauses.

You need to pick a side and then realize that every decision has consequences attached.. If you support Tucker in his belief that he had every right to refuse a trade, then I can respect that as a valid position.. Then you got your wish as he forced a buyout for himself and got his money and MLSE did what was their right to pay for that contract mistake. Now YOU more then anyone because of your position have to accept the cap hit that hurts your team because that is the fallout that resulted directly from Tucker decision. YOU placed Tucker in front of your team, so you have no one to blame but yourself now for the loss of Team Cap space, by being on Tuckers rather then considering what was in the best interest of your own Team.

My position was the Tucker was pigheaded, stubborn and greedy in this case and his contract gave him that legal right.. His unwillingness to accept that the organization wanted to move on without him cost my Leafs three times.. First because if traded, he would have returned assets to my Leafs team, where now they have none. Second those assets if they where a player rather then pick would be in the Leafs line-up would have avoided Fletcher's need to trade more assets (picks) or make UFA signings now to acquire that replacement player. Third Tucker's buyout if avoided would have saved a 6 year $1 mil hit against the teams cap. Three strikes against my Team and Tucker is OUT..

I however do not blame the current GM as all of that was outside of his control and simply doing what he was hired to do.. He inherited the contract with the unmovable NMC player with the job of now attempting to turn the team around. You some how praise the former GM for the contract in question, fully support Tucker's rights to deny any trade request. Now somehow your have directed your anger & disappointment of the fallout and blame the current GM, because he couldn't undo inherited mistakes so that it benefited rather then hurt your Leafs team. That is simply misdirected blame IMO on your part.

Perhaps you can shed some light then in case I am missing something here as to our position.

My position was the Tucker was pigheaded, stubborn and greedy in this case and his contract gave him that legal right..

I would of loved McCabe and Tucker to do/done a favor and leave millions on the table to help the Leafs out of the last GM's mess. The thing is people are living in a fantasy world if they believe these guys are making some poor moral decision holding out for the buyout it's just to much money to be charitable with, even for rich hockey players.

Queston, If Kubina is kept on board for the season and the Leafs miss the playoffs does he have a trade window again next off season?

Respectfully, I'm sorry but I don't have a lot of sympathy for those people that make the loudest noise supporting Tucker, McCabe and Sundin that they have valid clauses in their contracts and have every right to do what they are doing.. In all three cases they hurt and continue to hurt the Leafs by those positions that you fully support them for.

However when MLSE does what their allowed to within their rights of the CBA by asking them to move on, wanting to trade them, and last resort buy them out then you make a big fuss. You blame the GM for poor asset management that now Tucker $$ cost against the Cap and that hurts your Leafs..Or Fletcher needs to trade assets for Gravobski, because Sundin stubbornly twice refused to help out the team he claims he loves, or even provide the organization an answer to what he was doing to help them plan with or without him. Fletcher wouldn't have needed to trade picks for Grabovski as he would have come in return to Sundin rights.. If McCabe was willing to work with MLSE then we wouldn't have this situation.. Its McCabe being the stubborn, defiant employee that is making the situation worse then it is, than with others teams players with NTC/NMC clauses.

You need to pick a side and then realize that every decision has consequences attached.. If you support Tucker in his belief that he had every right to refuse a trade, then I can respect that as a valid position.. Then you got your wish as he forced a buyout for himself and got his money and MLSE did what was their right to pay for that contract mistake. Now YOU more then anyone because of your position have to accept the cap hit that hurts your team because that is the fallout that resulted directly from Tucker decision. YOU placed Tucker in front of your team, so you have no one to blame but yourself now for the loss of Team Cap space, by being on Tuckers rather then considering what was in the best interest of your own Team.

My position was the Tucker was pigheaded, stubborn and greedy in this case and his contract gave him that legal right.. His unwillingness to accept that the organization wanted to move on without him cost my Leafs three times.. First because if traded, he would have returned assets to my Leafs team, where now they have none. Second those assets if they where a player rather then pick would be in the Leafs line-up would have avoided Fletcher's need to trade more assets (picks) or make UFA signings now to acquire that replacement player. Third Tucker's buyout if avoided would have saved a 6 year $1 mil hit against the teams cap. Three strikes against my Team and Tucker is OUT..

I however do not blame the current GM as all of that was outside of his control and simply doing what he was hired to do.. He inherited the contract with the unmovable NMC player with the job of now attempting to turn the team around. You some how praise the former GM for the contract in question, fully support Tucker's rights to deny any trade request. Now somehow your have directed your anger & disappointment of the fallout and blame the current GM, because he couldn't undo inherited mistakes so that it benefited rather then hurt your Leafs team. That is simply misdirected blame IMO on your part.

Perhaps you can shed some light then in case I am missing something here as to our position.

We certainly don't see eye to eye on this one Mess, but i'll try to explain. Yes, Sundin, McCabe, Kaberle, Tucker and Kubina all said no to trades hence not allowing Fletch the abilities to get assets for his best players. However, it's what he has done afterwards that I question. First you say, because Sundin didn;t waive his NTC and others, Fletch would not have had to trade assets for Grabovski. Well, if Fletch didn;t waive Wellwood for nothing, he would not have had to spend a pick and a prospect to replace Wellwood with a talented yet unproved NHLer. One year of Wellwood would not have hurt. You say McCabe is being stubborn, maybe he his, what if it is because the way his situation was handled through the media and Fletch he has decided to dig in his heels? You could say it was both parties, the Boyle situation went fairly well, why not McCabe? There is no denying Fletch went public with it, and there is a real possibility that may be the reason. As far as Tucker goes, why not just keep him? Sure he didn;t want to get traded, who is to say he wouldn't change his mind down the road. Fletch did not have to buyout Tucker, he chose to. Tucker and McCabe would have played for the Leafs, who is to say down the road those two wouldn't have changed their minds down the road. This is not about JFJ and Fletch, or even a GM who specifically could have done a better job. The jury is still out IMO, but so far, the way he has handled Tucker, McCabe could have cost the Leafs assets. Speaking of assets, I guess he is waitting for the last minute to deal Kubina, the suitors for d men will increase as the summer rolls on? Fletch was so focused on getting rid of the D he can't. meanwhile he has a great asset in Kubina who can be traded, but decides to keep him? Makes no sense to me.

not to trade people then bring in replacements that are basically equal in cost but only marginally better.

Even on those terms of the replacements being "marginally better", aren't those moves worth the trouble?

I myself think:

- Hollweg is more than marginally better than Belak. He can play a regular shift without being a defensive liability and he hits 3 times as often as Belak.
- Hagman is a better overall hockey player than Tucker. Far better defensive player. Similar offensive players at this stage of their careers. More durable. Tucker hits more but he's a shadow of his former self in that department.
- Mayers brings character attributes and commitment missing from Kilger's game. As hockey players I say it's iffy whether Mayers is much better than Kilger.
- I don't know Finger very well but he appears to have a more developed offensive game than Gill. Finger is known to skate much better than Gill and be a more physical defender. He has the potential to be more than marginally better than Gill. Also add Frogren who is another potential replacement for Gill's game.
- I'm not crazy about Grabovsky but I have no doubt that he's a far better option than Wellwood. But that's not saying much since I believe Wellwood will be out of the NHL after this next upcoming season.

And you consider 2nd round picks sure thing, second line centres?
I don't get it either. How is Grabovski a longshot compared to a 2nd round pick?

I don't think the Boyle situation is the same to McCabe just because it doesn't seem a buyout was ever likely for a few years in Tampa where the Leafs it could be.

I don't think the Boyle situation is the same to McCabe just because it doesn't seem a buyout was ever likely for a few years in Tampa where the Leafs it could be.

Both are highly paid D that had NTC, both were asked to waive their NTC one did, the other didn't. How;s that not similar?

Even on those terms of the replacements being "marginally better", aren't those moves worth the trouble?

I myself think:

- Hollweg is more than marginally better than Belak. He can play a regular shift without being a defensive liability and he hits 3 times as often as Belak.
- Hagman is a better overall hockey player than Tucker. Far better defensive player. Similar offensive players at this stage of their careers. More durable. Tucker hits more but he's a shadow of his former self in that department.
- Mayers brings character attributes and commitment missing from Kilger's game. As hockey players I say it's iffy whether Mayers is much better than Kilger.
- I don't know Finger very well but he appears to have a more developed offensive game than Gill. Finger is known to skate much better than Gill and be a more physical defender. He has the potential to be more than marginally better than Gill. Also add Frogren who is another potential replacement for Gill's game.
- I'm not crazy about Grabovsky but I have no doubt that he's a far better option than Wellwood. But that's not saying much since I believe Wellwood will be out of the NHL after this next upcoming season.

If Belak hit people from behind like Hollweg does he could easily increase his number in that category.

Wellwood has proven himself an NHL capable player, Grabovski hasn't. Advantage, Wellwood.

I would of loved McCabe and Tucker to do/done a favor and leave millions on the table to help the Leafs out of the last GM's mess. The thing is people are living in a fantasy world if they believe these guys are making some poor moral decision holding out for the buyout it's just to much money to be charitable with, even for rich hockey players.

I can accept that because deep down its not the players fault but rather the former GM that gave them that contract that is at the root of all the Leafs problems.. If the Leafs were not so bad we wouldn't be sellers at the trade deadline in the first place or need major changes and a forced rebuild..

However since MLSE wants rid of these players now in the best interests of the Fans (US) and the team of turning it around, then I also have to accept that it hurts OUR team with missed opportunity of returned assets in trade and now Salary Cap buyout hit.. The greed of the buyout $$$$ situation was the reason why the players refuse to leave with NTC clauses. Their best interests in front of the teams, which is their right, and understandable when viewed while standing their shoes.

At no point in your post did you blame the current GM for the negative fallout from this situation though which is being consistent with your post and what the players were within their rights to do.

Even on those terms of the replacements being "marginally better", aren't those moves worth the trouble?

I myself think:

- Hollweg is more than marginally better than Belak. He can play a regular shift without being a defensive liability and he hits 3 times as often as Belak.
- Hagman is a better overall hockey player than Tucker. Far better defensive player. Similar offensive players at this stage of their careers. More durable. Tucker hits more but he's a shadow of his former self in that department.
- Mayers brings character attributes and commitment missing from Kilger's game. As hockey players I say it's iffy whether Mayers is much better than Kilger.
- I don't know Finger very well but he appears to have a more developed offensive game than Gill. Finger is known to skate much better than Gill and be a more physical defender. He has the potential to be more than marginally better than Gill. Also add Frogren who is another potential replacement for Gill's game.
- I'm not crazy about Grabovsky but I have no doubt that he's a far better option than Wellwood. But that's not saying much since I believe Wellwood will be out of the NHL after this next upcoming season.

-Hollweg is a marginal NHLer, who gets hit in fights, more often than he gives, and has cost his team games with hitting from behind and has a reputation as a cheap shot artist. Never liked Belak, but there was never the risk he would cost the team the game, could actually fight heavyweights, and can play both forward and D (although marginally well)
-May have a point on Tucker, but add another 1 mil to buy out Tucker to add Hagman (if that is the comparison) and I think it would be better to keep Tucker although Hagman is certainly better defensively.
-Mayers and Kilger seem to be a wash, i like Mayers but seems to be a lateral move. Was there not a UFA that could have been signed as apposed to Mayers (maybe Brunette?)
- Finger has played one year in the NHL, and to compare him to a vetran like Gill is not accurate. Same can be said about Frogren, he hasn't even put a skate on NA ice yet, and you are comparing him to established NHLers? I like them both, but proven commodoties, I don't think they are.
- I'm not crazy about Grabovsky either, but there would be no harm in playing Wellwood for 1 year at a small contract to see if he can still play. However, because Fletch got rid of his potential 2nd line centre, he had to trade assets away to fill that role, on a very talented yet unproven commodity?

I guess time will tell.

I can accept that because deep down its not the players fault but rather the former GM that gave them that contract that is at the root of all the Leafs problems.. If the Leafs were not so bad we wouldn't be sellers at the trade deadline in the first place or need major changes and a forced rebuild..

However since MLSE wants rid of these players now in the best interests of the Fans (US) and the team of turning it around, then I also have to accept that it hurts OUR team with missed opportunity of returned assets in trade and now Salary Cap buyout hit.. The greed of the buyout $$$$ situation was the reason why the players refuse to leave with NTC clauses. Their best interests in front of the teams, which is their right, and understandable when viewed while standing their shoes.

At no point in your post did you blame the current GM for the negative fallout from this situation though which is being consistent with your post and what the players were within their rights to do.

I'm confused. Are these players bad or would they have greatly improved the fortunes of the team at the deadline if they would have agreed to have been traded? If they suck and no team would benefit from their presence I can't imagine the return would have been that great.

If they are indeed good players that other teams would want then they should be good enough for the Leafs being the worst organization in the league and all, let's see what a new coach can do.

Theses guys are being moved because they needed to change the core of the team. This team stunk and wasn't even fun to watch. Fletch is trying to change this. We don't know what ahppened in the dressing room but I am guessing that certain individuals (Tucker, Mccabe, Wellwood) have been identified as thos that needed to go no matter what. Of course it wasn't great for asset management but more importantly they needed to change the core.

Both are highly paid D that had NTC, both were asked to waive their NTC one did, the other didn't. How;s that not similar?

Dan Boyle had a NTC and McCabe has a NMC ...

TB new owners threatened Boyle that they would toss him on waivers if he didn't waive his NTC and then he would end up on a bottom feeding team like NYI or ATL rather then being traded to a good team like San Jose..

Boyle in his parting comments made it perfectly clear he was not happy with those blackmail tactics to get rid of him.

Tucker and McCabe have NMC not NTC and what that does is prevent Leafs from placing them on waivers. MLSE hands are complete tied by those bad contracts and have little options beyond a buyout. Some Leaf Nation fans even get upset if they're even spoken to abruptly or possibly told they will not get icetime that MLSE is abusing these players.

Both are highly paid D that had NTC, both were asked to waive their NTC one did, the other didn't. How;s that not similar?

Because Tampa was never going to buy out Boyle if he didn't waive and he knew that.

At no point in your post did you blame the current GM for the negative fallout from this situation though which is being consistent with your post and what the players were within their rights to do.

Cool. Well Fletch may have made a tactical error buying out Tucker in the sense that it gives McCabe further hope of a big pay day. Yet getting ride of McCabe's buddies like Tucker could also in time get him to agree to a move down the road as the buyout gets smaller. If The Leafs can not be paying McCabe any cap space in three years that's mission accomplished for me as his hit to the cap seems rather meaningless for the next couple of years anyway.

Because Tampa was never going to buy out Boyle if he didn't waive and he knew that.


And how is that different here?

Here are two songs, that I'm sure Fletcher would like for ya'll to hear. He's doing his job, seeing thangs in a long run, gittin' players who he will trade at the deadline etc. He doing it big, he doing it for Toronto. I'm glad, smiling.

Here goes dogg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0c7yl57OAY&feature=related

The second one is better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fE8xF482Co

Fletch is motivated by the haters, we all gotta do dat, that's the truth right there mane.

Fletch is the manager, they are on a whole different level. I could do that job, knowing hockey's spirit and business thang too.

And how is that different here?

Boyle knew he couldn't sit it out and get paid double digit millions to go away...McCabe thinks it's still possible.

Boyle knew he couldn't sit it out and get paid double digit millions to go away...McCabe thinks it's still possible.
Why couldn't he sit it out? If he was waived, he's still paid his 6 and change. If there's a buy-out, he gets his buy-out pay.

Boyle knew he couldn't sit it out and get paid double digit millions to go away...McCabe thinks it's still possible.Boyle could be waived and an Atlanta could pick him up, Boyle could have been sent to the Minors and the Bolts could have used the its only money thing... McCabe neither of the above can be done. Being bought out is it..

Why couldn't he sit it out? If he was waived, he's still paid his 6 and change. If there's a buy-out, he gets his buy-out pay.

and that is my whole point there was no extra money in it for Boyle to not okay a trade.

I like seeing what he has done, he's bringing in a whole new attitude. I'm confused as to why he's picking up so many forwards and defensemen, but it also gives us more chips to bargain with in a Kubina/McCabe trade, as well as pressure on some players who may have assumed they were locks coming into next season.

and that is my whole point there was no extra money in it for Boyle to not okay a trade.true, if put on waivers someone would grab him, so your right no extra money,,, McCabes contract the dreaded No Movement (dont think it existed before his) will change things as we know it, thats for sure,,

Fletch is so motivated by the haters he ain't even understanding the tru meaning of it dog!!!!! Motivated by the haters!! Hater hate on hate on! hater hate on hate on!!!! Hater hate on hate on!!! Fletch is enjoying his job right now, building it big. He'll trade suckas, move suckas and so on. This a big ass business right here and Fletch is the cold blooded killa standing at the end of the road u heard me. Fletch is so EXPERIENCED and he has the knowledge, these guys really see the whole picture and know what to do during the season. It's time to move thangs and do thangs...... I love that sentence. :)

Judging the job Cliff Fletcher has done since taking over to this point is difficult to do without a firm grasp of what his original plan was.

Remember the original plan? Fletcher was a temporary person assuming the GM's position for the remainder of the season until a new and long term GM (with a Stanley Cup) could be hired this summer.

When that turned out to be another Peddie lie Fletcher was given complete control of the franchise, but the goal of the organization has remained a mystery. Other than his stated hope to "change the culture" of the team, what has he been trying to do?

Is Fletcher trying to take a couple steps back to build for the future? Is he trying a quick fix to get back into the playoffs? Is it a combination of both? From where I sit I think it's the third option: a combination of both. I imagine that moron Richard Peddie has told Fletcher "We know we have to re-build, but making the playoffs would be nice."

A team that was truly trying to stockpile young prospects and draft picks for the future would trade every marketable veteran it had in an effort to achieve that goal. Since the two most marketable trade bait players the Leafs have (Toskala and Antropov) remain on the roster one can only assume Fletcher is not in a full re-build mode. This conclusion is further backed up by the fact that Fletcher has used draft picks (in the later rounds) to acquire players for the active roster.

I would say the "kind of rebuild, but try and make the playoffs" plan has been moderately successful. Fletcher has cast aside some veteran players from last year's team and replaced them with similar players from other organizations. Other than the ludicrious Jeff Finger signing (ludicrious in terms of the size and length of the contract) Fletcher's remake has been largely beneign (which isn't to say more moves aren't coming).

In the end, it all depends on Mats Sundin. If he resigns with the Leafs they will once again have a middle of the road roster capable of getting 80-90 points and being on the fringes of a playoff race.

From my perspective Leaf fans can expect more of the same. They shouldn't be surprised, after all, the ownership remains the same.

true, if put on waivers someone would grab him, so your right no extra money,,, McCabes contract the dreaded No Movement (dont think it existed before his) will change things as we know it, thats for sure,,

Its was reported on SportsNet recently McCabe received the very first NMC in NHL history and Tucker was the first to be bought out of one as its a new feature in the post lockout CBA.

It appears that Leaf Nation was asked to bend over, grab their ankles and take a couple of penalty strokes for each contract, thanks to you know who.;)

Somehow now in some form of twisted logic, Fletcher who inherited all this with the job is to blame for our current situation and suffering. Trust me Cliff is a little sore to sit down himself, after feeling he also took a few for the team here trying to rectumfy ;) this problem.

:)

Its was reported on SportsNet recently McCabe received the very first NMC in NHL history and Tucker was the first to be bought out of one as its a new feature in the post lockout CBA.

It appears that Leaf Nation was asked to bend over, grab their ankles and take a couple of penalty strokes for each contract, thanks to you know who.;)

Somehow now in some form of twisted logic, Fletcher who inherited all this with the job is to blame for our current situation and suffering. Trust me Cliff is a little sore to sit down himself, after feeling he also took a few for the team here trying to rectumfy ;) this problem.

:)


Not sure who said that Mess, but it certainly wasn't me. Fletch is not to blame, my point was befor he so willingly (as you say) bent over to grab hold of his ankles, decided to buyout Tucker and give the media a spin on the McCabe situation, there were other options. Don't make him out to be hand cuffed, because he wasn't. It could be said that Colorado is a better team than the Leafs, however they felt the need to sign Tucker right away, but I suppose the Leafs are a better team and are good enough to take a cap hit just to rid themselves of him? Fletch has a tough job, no doubt, but he is not put in a corner and he does have choices. I don't like the way he has handled things IMO. Wasting his time fighting with McCabe when he could trade Kubina for great pieces in a rebuid, sure Kubina could still get traded, but don;t think the oporunities are getting better as time goes on.

Its was reported on SportsNet recently McCabe received the very first NMC in NHL history and Tucker was the first to be bought out of one as its a new feature in the post lockout CBA.

It appears that Leaf Nation was asked to bend over, grab their ankles and take a couple of penalty strokes for each contract, thanks to you know who.;)

Somehow now in some form of twisted logic, Fletcher who inherited all this with the job is to blame for our current situation and suffering. Trust me Cliff is a little sore to sit down himself, after feeling he also took a few for the team here trying to rectumfy ;) this problem.

:):laugh:

Boyle knew he couldn't sit it out and get paid double digit millions to go away...McCabe thinks it's still possible.

Which of course it isn't. The buy-out window has passed and the secondary one is not going to come to be, we don't have anyone going to arbitration, much less two. Never mind that Cliff has said it won't happen as well.

And if for some reason his agent has not made him aware of that, which he obviously has, this being the real world, I offer my services to Mr. McCabe, as his agent would be utterly incompetent.

So if his motivation is not to be bought out, which it isn't and never was.. what is it at this point?

Its was reported on SportsNet recently McCabe received the very first NMC in NHL history and Tucker was the first to be bought out of one as its a new feature in the post lockout CBA.

It appears that Leaf Nation was asked to bend over, grab their ankles and take a couple of penalty strokes for each contract, thanks to you know who.;)

Somehow now in some form of twisted logic, Fletcher who inherited all this with the job is to blame for our current situation and suffering. Trust me Cliff is a little sore to sit down himself, after feeling he also took a few for the team here trying to rectumfy ;) this problem.

:)

Why is this so hard for you to understand???

NO ONE BLAMES FLETCHER FOR OUR CURRENT SITUATION

It's his handling of the situation that some question.

So if his motivation is not to be bought out, which it isn't and never was.. what is it at this point?

As you said, what is the point? and given the direction of the team and his treatment what else can it be but waiting for a buy out. Keep in mind next years buyout period, or even the one after that will still offer a big pay day for McCabe.

As you said, what is the point? and given the direction of the team and his treatment what else can it be but waiting for a buy out. Keep in mind next years buyout period, or even the one after that will still offer a big pay day for McCabe.

You may have not heard, but it was Fletch asking McCabe not to leave, actually McCabe has stated publicly he wants to stay. What's the agenda for wanting to be bought out if he wants to stay a Leaf? This whole buy out thing becgan once Fletch asked him to waive his NTC NMC, not the other way around.

Which of course it isn't. The buy-out window has passed and the secondary one is not going to come to be, we don't have anyone going to arbitration, much less two. Never mind that Cliff has said it won't happen as well.

And if for some reason his agent has not made him aware of that, which he obviously has, this being the real world, I offer my services to Mr. McCabe, as his agent would be utterly incompetent.

So if his motivation is not to be bought out, which it isn't and never was.. what is it at this point?

Since the buyout window is closed and the McCabe camp unsuccessful in its attempt to to force one, then we have to look deeper to find the reason why.

I believe the motivation lies in the "NO INTEREST" claim in McCabe as Fletcher says, and we know McCabe's contract is likely a factor creating the problem in this. If McCabe drops his NMC stance in a time when no one is willing to acquire him, then that reflects poorly on him, even to the point of bordering on embarrassing.

Until that $2 mil summer deferred bonus that is owed payable on Sept 15th to McCabe is paid by MLSE, I believe its in McCabe's best interest to remain in this stalemate position protected personally by the NMC defense shield. Unwilling to move via NMC excuse, is a better position for McCabe then exposing himself to the possibility that no one wants him at his current price.

Unless some team comes calling with a decent offer and location that McCabe would accept, which Fletcher then brings to the McCabe camp and asks him to waive his NMC, there is no reason for this current situation to change. The reason I used the words "decent offer" is that every man has pride, and what will be viewed as McCabe's market value will be the return received in trade... So being traded for a bag or pucks or 7th round pick or future considerations all reflect negatively on McCabe personally.

After Sept 15th, 2008 McCabe becomes a 3 year $4.125 mil real money expense and the $5.75 mil cap hit an added bonus to teams like NYI and ATL looking to reach the Cap floor. This is when I expect to see movement and Cliff being able to resolve this situation with McCabe's assistance.

Since the buyout window is closed and the McCabe camp unsuccessful in its attempt to to force one, then we have to look deeper to find the reason why.

I believe the motivation lies in the "NO INTEREST" claim in McCabe as Fletcher says, and we know McCabe's contract is likely a factor creating the problem in this. If McCabe drops his NMC stance in a time when no one is willing to acquire him, then that reflects poorly on him, even to the point of bordering on embarrassing.

Until that $2 mil summer deferred bonus that is owed to McCabe is paid by MLSE, I believe its in McCabe's best interest to remain in this stalemate position protected personally by the NMC defense shield. Unwilling to move via NMC excuse, is a better position for McCabe then exposing himself to the possibility that no one wants him at his current price.

Unless some team comes calling with a decent offer and location that McCabe would accept, which Fletcher then brings to the McCabe camp and asks him to waive his NMC, there is no reason for this current situation to change. The reason I used the words "decent offer" is that every man has pride, and what will be viewed as McCabe's market value will be the return received in trade... So being traded for a bag or pucks or 7th round pick or future considerations all reflect negatively on McCabe personally.

After Sept 15th, 2008 McCabe becomes and 3 year $4.125 mil real money expense and the $5.75 mil cap hit an added bonus to teams like NYI and ATL looking to reach the Cap floor. This is when I expect to see movement and Cliff being able to resolve this situation with McCabe's assistance.

And here comes Darth !!!! ;)

ps. I agree with you re timing, Sept 16th, McCabe will be gone.

You may have not heard, but it was Fletch asking McCabe not to leave, actually McCabe has stated publicly he wants to stay. What's the agenda for wanting to be bought out if he wants to stay a Leaf? This whole buy out thing becgan once Fletch asked him to waive his NTC NMC, not the other way around.

Yeah, but I'm afraid I do not understand what that has to do with the topic of him not waiving it and why.

Until that $2 mil summer deferred bonus that is owed payable on Sept 15th to McCabe is paid by MLSE, I believe its in McCabe's best interest to remain in this stalemate position protected personally by the NMC defense shield. Unwilling to move via NMC excuse, is a better position for McCabe then exposing himself to the possibility that no one wants him at his current price.


Any reason the leafs can't pay him the 2mil now?

Since the buyout window is closed and the McCabe camp unsuccessful in its attempt to to force one, then we have to look deeper to find the reason why.

I believe the motivation lies in the "NO INTEREST" claim in McCabe as Fletcher says, and we know McCabe's contract is likely a factor creating the problem in this.
Only the fact that McCabe never waived his NMC, that's all. Montreal never made an offer for Sundin at the deadline either but we know that Gainey would give his left nut to have him. Everything that Fletcher has said has indicated that he can trade McCabe as soon as he is given the okay to.

Any reason the leafs can't pay him the 2mil now?

I don't think that they want to pay money made up by Darren Dreger.

And here comes Darth !!!! ;)

ps. I agree with you re timing, Sept 16th, McCabe will be gone.

McCabe goes on sale on Sept 16th for $ 2 mil less then his cost today. What GM in his right mind would buy now in July or August when they can simply wait until mid September and save the $$ and still have McCabe in camp by Day 1 of training camp?.

The reason for radio silence and all quiet of the eastern front new position, might very well be that a conditional trade and destination has already been concluded and its subject to Leafs picking up the $2 mil bonus.. Which then means the deal can be officially consummated and announced on Sept 16th.

Both Fletcher and Wilson have both stated clearly that McCabe is NOT being included in the Dman core for next year. Do they know something we don't ? ;)

Continuing on the topic theme of motivation. I think ATL GM job is hanging by a thread this year. That makes them based on being below the Salary Cap floor presently an ideal destination for McCabe. Whether Byran would waive to go there I have no idea and maybe NYI or bust is his only position.

Any reason the leafs can't pay him the 2mil now?

The CBA clearly states that all standard player contracts once filed by the teams to the NHL registration office and approved are non-renegotiable..

McCabe's $8 mil signing bonus has specific dates as to when those deferred installment payments are to be made by MLSE.

Since no games are played during the summer, I can't see any reason the NHL would make an exception for MLSE and McCabe here just to help orchestrate a trade sooner.. Waiting until mid September still provides uninterrupted service to the new team for next season.

In fact I can see other GM's objecting to allowing the Leafs getting a CBA special exception here.. Case in point Brian Burke is trying to trade Mattew Schneider presently.. Allowing Leafs to shop McCabe now with bonus paid changes the market for Burke's trading partners and alters the supply and demand for that level of Dman.. Burke is in a better position to trade without the added competition..

McCabe goes on sale on Sept 16th for $ 2 mil less then his cost today. What GM in his right mind would buy now in July or August when they can simply wait until mid September and save the $$ and still have McCabe in camp by Day 1 of training camp?.

The reason for radio silence and all quiet of the eastern front new position, might very well be that a conditional trade and destination has already been concluded and its subject to Leafs picking up the $2 mil bonus.. Which then means the deal can be officially consummated and announced on Sept 16th.

Both Fletcher and Wilson have both stated clearly that McCabe is NOT being included in the Dman core for next year. Do they know something we don't ? ;)
Continuing on the topic theme of motivation. I think ATL GM job is hanging by a thread this year. That makes them based on being below the Salary Cap floor presently an ideal destination for McCabe. Whether Byran would waive to go there I have no idea and maybe NYI or bust is his only position.

I'm pretty sure I heard Fletch on the Fan 590 about two weeks ago saying McCabe will be a Leaf coming training camp? If he can find a trading partner for either or both of McCabe and Kubina then great, but all indications point towards both of them being Leafs this year? It has been asked before, but is there another clause in Kubina's contract to be traded in other years or is this the only opportunity for him to be moved without having to waive his NTC? My money is on both to be Leafs this year, hope i'm wrong (minus a McCabe buyout that is!)

The CBA clearly states that all standard player contracts once filed by the teams to the NHL registration office and approved are non-renegotiable..

McCabe's $8 mil signing bonus has specific dates as to when those deferred installment payments are to be made by MLSE.

Since no games are played during the summer, I can't see any reason the NHL would make an exception for MLSE and McCabe here just to help orchestrate a trade sooner.. Waiting until mid September still provides uninterrupted service to the new team for next season.

In fact I can see other GM's objecting to allowing the Leafs getting a CBA special exception here.. Case in point Brian Burke is trying to trade Mattew Schneider presently.. Allowing Leafs to shop McCabe now with bonus paid changes the market for Burke's trading partners and alters the supply and demand for that level of Dman.. Burke is in a better position to trade without the added competition..

Got it.

Hopefully the McCabe trade goes through right on my B-day.

Now that would be quite the present. :laugh:

I'm pretty sure I heard Fletch on the Fan 590 about two weeks ago saying McCabe will be a Leaf coming training camp? If he can find a trading partner for either or both of McCabe and Kubina then great, but all indications point towards both of them being Leafs this year? It has been asked before, but is there another clause in Kubina's contract to be traded in other years or is this the only opportunity for him to be moved without having to waive his NTC? My money is on both to be Leafs this year, hope i'm wrong (minus a McCabe buyout that is!)

I think camp opens up between the 11th-14th of sept. Technically he would be attending camp if he couldn't be moved before the 15th.

I think camp opens up between the 11th-14th of sept. Technically he would be attending camp if he couldn't be moved before the 15th.

Technically you're right, and I wouldn't mind a trade at all. IMO a buyout of McCabe would be idiotic, and if McCabe and Kubina are still Leafs, it would be a disapointment to me to see Kubina not traded with all the depth we have, and the potential of a good return from Kubina towards a rebuild. We'll have to see, however I don't think the market for D is as big as it was July 1st though.

Technically you're right, and I wouldn't mind a trade at all.

Fletch loves those little "reading between the lines" bits during his Q&A with the media. I think Fletch gets off on it. :biglaugh:


IMO a buyout of McCabe would be idiotic, and if McCabe and Kubina are still Leafs, it would be a disapointment to me to see Kubina not traded with all the depth we have, and the potential of a good return from Kubina towards a rebuild. We'll have to see, however I don't think the market for D is as big as it was July 1st though.

I honestly can't see any self respecting individual forcing their employer in keeping him after he's made it abundantly clear they don't want you working for him.

I honestly can't see any self respecting individual forcing their employer in keeping him after he's made it abundantly clear they don't want you working for him.

Then no self respecting individual would ever want the protection of a trade union.

Just insulted a lot of people there, skippy.

Then no self respecting individual would ever want the protection of a trade union.

Just insulted a lot of people there, skippy.

:biglaugh:

Don't talk to me about being unionized when I'm actually a shop steward. You might have missed the TTC union thread a few months back. Might want to look that up, SKIPPY.

:biglaugh:

Don't talk to me about being unionized when I'm actually a shop steward. You might have missed the TTC union thread a few months back. Might want to look that up, SKIPPY.

Okay, if you are a shop steward then you should understand McCabe's position a lot more than you appear to. What teams have been doing to players or trying to do with players with no trade clauses is going to be a big issue with the next CBA, I predict.

I'm pretty sure I heard Fletch on the Fan 590 about two weeks ago saying McCabe will be a Leaf coming training camp? If he can find a trading partner for either or both of McCabe and Kubina then great, but all indications point towards both of them being Leafs this year? It has been asked before, but is there another clause in Kubina's contract to be traded in other years or is this the only opportunity for him to be moved without having to waive his NTC? My money is on both to be Leafs this year, hope i'm wrong (minus a McCabe buyout that is!)

Buyout window is closed .. McCabe is SOL on that blood money request of his..

McCabe choices presently are Pressbox or trade .. I hope he picks wisely ..

Fletcher says "The situation will sort itself out and they plan on meeting in Sept to resolve the stalemate". Both Fletcher and Wilson in back to back in consecutive days during interviews excluded McCabe from next years team .. I am sure you have seen the you tube of Fletcher's precise words..

8VK9RzbR6CY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VK9RzbR6CY

Not sure Cliff can be any more decisive then that as to McCabe future on the Leafs defense !!!

Okay, if you are a shop steward then you should understand McCabe's position a lot more than you appear to. What teams have been doing to players or trying to do with players with no trade clauses is going to be a big issue with the next CBA, I predict.

I fully understand McCabe's situation BUT like most unionized companies your able to transfer into other places if your present location isn't working out for you. A majority of unions (half decent ones anyways) guarantee your job which would allow such a transfer to take place.

If at any time I'm not content with where I'm working or my director and manager feel my work isn't satisfactory then I'm moving on. I will never work for any location that doesn't want me there. I surely won't stick around to brag to my brothers and sisters "HEY LOOK AT ME, I'M STICKIN IT TO THEM". Union members who act in such a fashion are usually frowned upon by other members, not applauded. Besides, I have more then enough confidence in my skills and experience to be appreciated elsewhere.

If you need further proof, look into the Boyle situation. That's how a true self respecting individual handles the situation. His situation is IDENTICAL to McCabe's (family, wanting to stay, NMC, team wanted to move him,etc). Only difference I can see is McCabe has a grudge with ownership/management (of any kind) after the lockout.

The situation could work itself out but at this moment I'm not holding my breath. If McCabe is in a leaf uniform on Oct 9th he should be disgusted with himself. PERIOD.

Buyout window is closed .. McCabe if SOL on that blood money request of his..

McCabe choices presently are Pressbox or trade .. I hope he picks wisely ..

Fletcher says "The situation will sort itself out and they plan on meeting in Sept to resolve the stalemate". Both Fletcher and Wilson in back to back in consecutive days during interviews excluded McCabe from next years team .. I am sure you have seen the you tube of Fletcher's precise words..

8VK9RzbR6CY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VK9RzbR6CY

Not sure Cliff can be any more decisive then that as to McCabe future on the Leafs defense !!!
There should also be one where Fletcher said that McCabe wouldn't be vanquished to the pressbox.

I fully understand McCabe's situation BUT like most unionized companies your able to transfer into other places if your present location isn't working out for you. A majority of unions (half decent ones anyways) guarantee your job which would allow such a transfer to take place.

If at any time I'm not content with where I'm working or my director and manager feel my work isn't satisfactory then I'm moving on. I will never work for any location that doesn't want me there. I surely won't stick around to brag to my brothers and sisters "HEY LOOK AT ME, I'M STICKIN IT TO THEM". Union members who act in such a fashion are usually frowned upon by other members, not applauded. Besides, I have more then enough confidence in my skills and experience to be appreciated elsewhere.

If you need further proof, look into the Boyle situation. That's how a true self respecting individual handles the situation. His situation is IDENTICAL to McCabe's (family, wanting to stay, NMC, team wanted to move him,etc). Only difference I can see is McCabe has a grudge with ownership/management (of any kind) after the lockout.

The situation could work itself out but at this moment I'm not holding my breath. If McCabe is in a leaf uniform on Oct 9th he should be disgusted with himself. PERIOD.

I don't think that Boyle and McCabe are the least bit different in the way that they feel about moving. It's just that Boyle was given the choice between going to a place where he didn't want to go that was close to the top of the standings or go to a place where he didn't want to go that was close to the bottom of the standings, lesser of the two evils won out. As far as Boyle's self respect goes, I think that it took a bit of a hit. He got screwed and made to look foolish.

McCabe was an NHLPA rep and the minute that he waives his NMC then that sets a precedent for every other player who thought that they had negotiated that protection. The NTC as it stands now is a joke because of what happened to Boyle, teams will give them out like candy now because they know there are ways to get out of it. For that reason I think that only the NMC will survive in the next CBA.

Both are highly paid D that had NTC, both were asked to waive their NTC one did, the other didn't. How;s that not similar?

Boyle had a NTC, McCabe has a NMC, giving one team more leverage than the other, if what I understand is correct.

edit: My bad....I see it's already been responded to, now that I've continued to read the thread. Of course it has. :)

If at any time I'm not content with where I'm working or my director and manager feel my work isn't satisfactory then I'm moving on. I will never work for any location that doesn't want me there. I surely won't stick around to brag to my brothers and sisters "HEY LOOK AT ME, I'M STICKIN IT TO THEM". Union members who act in such a fashion are usually frowned upon by other members, not applauded. Besides, I have more then enough confidence in my skills and experience to be appreciated elsewhere.



Yes, but McCabe's manager is a temp. And there is no I in manager, so he should thinking beyond his ego.

Buyout window is closed .. McCabe if SOL on that blood money request of his..

McCabe choices presently are Pressbox or trade .. I hope he picks wisely ..

Fletcher says "The situation will sort itself out and they plan on meeting in Sept to resolve the stalemate". Both Fletcher and Wilson in back to back in consecutive days during interviews excluded McCabe from next years team .. I am sure you have seen the you tube of Fletcher's precise words..

8VK9RzbR6CY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VK9RzbR6CY

Not sure Cliff can be any more decisive then that as to McCabe future on the Leafs defense !!! hey Mess, when is that from?

Yes, but McCabe's manager is a temp. And there is no I in manager, so he should thinking beyond his ego.

While McCabe's manager is a temp his bosses aren't. ;)

Didn't Richie Cunningham pour melted butter into Skippy's lap in a Happy Day's episode:nod:

Too bad his bosses know diddly about hockey...

hey Mess, when is that from?

This interview happened after July 1st and in the first few weeks of free agency ..

Jeff Finger was already signed and the Dman in question in this video in the comments about Fletcher wanted to sign 1 more Dman is Frogren.. That just happened within the last week.

Buyout window is closed .. McCabe if SOL on that blood money request of his..
McCabe choices presently are Pressbox or trade .. I hope he picks wisely ..

Fletcher says "The situation will sort itself out and they plan on meeting in Sept to resolve the stalemate". Both Fletcher and Wilson in back to back in consecutive days during interviews excluded McCabe from next years team .. I am sure you have seen the you tube of Fletcher's precise words..

8VK9RzbR6CY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VK9RzbR6CY

Not sure Cliff can be any more decisive then that as to McCabe future on the Leafs defense !!!


Thanks for that Mess. As far as your comment on blood money, i'm not sure if you're looking to persue a career in the acting field or would like to become a regular on broadway, it was MLSE that told McCabe to leave, not the other way around. If Fletch didn't approach him this would not be a topic of discusion. McCabe wants to be a Leaf, Fletch wants him gone, this was all initaiated by MLSE not McCabe.

Cliff Fletcher and Ron Wilson Discuss Free Agent Signings

XlCPP5Pieo4

Too bad his bosses know diddly about hockey...

Diddly or not, Fletch has the go ahead to make any moves he wants which means they approve of it.

Cliff Fletcher and Ron Wilson Discuss Free Agent Signings

XlCPP5Pieo4

The checking line he spoke of is the reason I think Bell will get the nod on the 3rd line instead of Stajan.

(Hagman Bell Mayers) Fits the mold much more then Stajan in the middle.

Then where does Stajan go? I would rather not have him in the top 6, and he is above being on the fourth line.

Then where does Stajan go? I would rather not have him in the top 6, and he is above being on thr fourth line.

I think the 4th line will get an equal amount of ice time as the 3rd or close to it.

Thanks for that Mess. It was MLSE that told McCabe to leave, not the other way around. If Fletch didn't approach him this would not be a topic of discussion. McCabe wants to be a Leaf, Fletch wants him gone, this was all initiated by MLSE not McCabe.

No one is disputing that MLSE wants McCabe gone. It appears that you're not willing to accept that fact that McCabe is unwanted.

It wouldn't make any sense the other way around.. If McCabe wanted out of Toronto then he wouldn't be refusing to waive his NMC but rather the opposite.. Telling Fletcher to trade him and then vetoing all moves because of his no move clause doesn't make any sense at all. If he wanted out he would waive his NMC so Leafs could accommodate his wishes to leave.

However MLSE wants him out and McCabe says NO and you can't make me because I have NMC .. His agent then responded with "If Toronto no longer wants McCabe then they should buy him out" .That is the only way for McCabe to get the buyout money like Tucker forced.

However had McCabe been bought out then you would have blamed Fletcher because now the Leafs team is taking a CAP hit just like Tucker.. If you think McCabe is in the right, then you have to accept the CAP hit as the result as its the only way to get rid of him and still honour the contract by CBA rules for MLSE.

I think the 4th line will get an equal amount of ice time as the 3rd or close to it.

Stajan on the fourth, and Bell on third? I disagree 100%, Stajan has improved far to much, and has been far too good for us to demote him for Bell, who wasn't at all impressiv, bar his hit on Alfie.

I don't think that they want to pay money made up by Darren Dreger.
All the pieces add up and it makes sense. $4.15 base, with the signing bonus paid out over the first few years of the deal. I think this works in our favour, as we can get the lump sum out of the way and he's more attractive to unload.
The CBA clearly states that all standard player contracts once filed by the teams to the NHL registration office and approved are non-renegotiable..

McCabe's $8 mil signing bonus has specific dates as to when those deferred installment payments are to be made by MLSE.

Since no games are played during the summer, I can't see any reason the NHL would make an exception for MLSE and McCabe here just to help orchestrate a trade sooner.. Waiting until mid September still provides uninterrupted service to the new team for next season.

In fact I can see other GM's objecting to allowing the Leafs getting a CBA special exception here.. Case in point Brian Burke is trying to trade Mattew Schneider presently.. Allowing Leafs to shop McCabe now with bonus paid changes the market for Burke's trading partners and alters the supply and demand for that level of Dman.. Burke is in a better position to trade without the added competition..
I believe a fair share of players will get their contract spread over the entire year, not just the playing year. The way I read the McCabe bonus was that it had to be paid by the end of the summer. That was in the TSN article. It could've been poorly worded, but it came off as a "the money is coming and can come sooner if the Leafs want" concept.

Stajan on the fourth, and Bell on third? I disagree 100%, Stajan has improved far to much, and has been far too good for us to demote him for Bell, who wasn't at all impressiv, bar his hit on Alfie.

I just see the following line at some point in the season sticking:

Hagman Bell Mayers

No one is disputing that MLSE wants McCabe gone. It appears that you're not willing to accept that fact that McCabe is unwanted.

It wouldn't make any sense the other way around.. If McCabe wanted out of Toronto then he wouldn't be refusing to waive his NMC but rather the opposite.. Telling Fletcher to trade him and then vetoing all moves because of his no move clause doesn't make any sense at all. If he wanted out he would waive his NMC so Leafs could accommodate his wishes to leave.

However MLSE wants him out and McCabe says NO and you can't make me because I have NMC .. His agent then responded with "If Toronto no longer wants McCabe then they should buy him out" .That is the only way for McCabe to get the buyout money like Tucker forced.

However had McCabe been bought out then you would have blamed Fletcher because now the Leafs team is taking a CAP hit just like Tucker.. If you think McCabe is in the right, then you have to accept the CAP hit as the result as its the only way to get rid of him and still honour the contract by CBA rules for MLSE.

It's clear to me that MLSE doesn't want McCabe here. All i'm saying is I understand he is not in MLSE's plan, is it worth all this hassel just to get rid of him? That's my point in all of this. Fletch is trying to move something that he can't move, why keep pushing it? McCabe will not hurt the team, the cap hit is not crippling the team from doing other things, his experience is an asset to the younger players, McCabe has been mentioned as a good team guy, and previous captain. With all that being said, they tried to move him, didn;t work, I say leave it alone. At the end of the day, buying out McCabe and pushing him to leave has had np positive impact whatsoever, meanwhile there is this D man by the name of Kubina who can be moved for assets, I wonder why Fletch is taking the hard way rather than just trading Kubina towards building for the future? Keeping McCabe for the duration of his contract will not hurt the team one bit IMO, Kaberele can be traded next summer if the Leafs don;t make the playoffs, and Kubina can be moved now. If Kubina is not traded, and both he and McCabe are on the team or McCabe is bought out, that would be a ridiculous move by Fletch IMO. Who is to say McCabe would not want to be moved over time if, Tucker is gone, maybe Sundin, potentially Kubina this year and Kaberle next year? He just may want to leave anyway, let the chips fall where they may.

It's clear to me that MLSE doesn't want McCabe here. All i'm saying is I understand he is not in MLSE's plan, is it worth all this hassel just to get rid of him? That's my point in all of this. Fletch is trying to move something that he can't move, why keep pushing it? McCabe will not hurt the team, the cap hit is not crippling the team from doing other things, his experience is an asset to the younger players, McCabe has been mentioned as a good team guy, and previous captain. With all that being said, they tried to move him, didn;t work, I say leave it alone. At the end of the day, buying out McCabe and pushing him to leave has had np positive impact whatsoever, meanwhile there is this D man by the name of Kubina who can be moved for assets, I wonder why Fletch is taking the hard way rather than just trading Kubina towards building for the future? Keeping McCabe for the duration of his contract will not hurt the team one bit IMO, Kaberele can be traded next summer if the Leafs don;t make the playoffs, and Kubina can be moved now. If Kubina is not traded, and both he and McCabe are on the team or McCabe is bought out, that would be a ridiculous move by Fletch IMO. Who is to say McCabe would not want to be moved over time if, Tucker is gone, maybe Sundin, potentially Kubina this year and Kaberle next year? He just may want to leave anyway, let the chips fall where they may.

The buyout window is done for the leafs. Having a player who was entering salary arbitration would have made the second window possible.

Why not push the issue. Ownership and management don't want him here. While a buyout at this point doesn't make much sense I can't see McCabe not wanting to waive it after all of this.

The buyout window is done for the leafs. Having a player who was entering salary arbitration would have made the second window possible.

Why not push the issue. Ownership and management don't want him here. While a buyout at this point doesn't make much sense I can't see McCabe not wanting to waive it after all of this.


Why not push the issue?? What good has come from all of this?? You see McCabe cracking?, you think all this negative publicity has been good for Fletch and MLSE, you think McCabe is happy and going to be accomodating to MLSE?? It hasn't worked so far either buy him out or keep him on the team, and buying out a player that will have such a large cap hit for a long time is absolutely ridiculous IMO.The most mind blowing thing about all this, is that some people think McCabe will not help the team by staying? He is a very good D and has alot of great qualities that some of the younger players can learn from. Althouhg I have no proof, I have a hard time seeing how McCabe is such a problem in the dressing room, former captain, assitant captain and several players have talked about what a great leader he is and how important he is to the team. Fletch is pushing the issue, because he said he would, and doesn't want to look stupid in the process. Keep McCabe, let him play and see how it all shakes out. How do you know that if Kaberle being traded, Kubina being traded, Sundin not returning and Tucker being gone, and a possible reduction in McCabe's ice time, he would not want to leave anyway? That is a very real possibility.

I just see the following line at some point in the season sticking:

Hagman Bell Mayers

I have to disagree on this one. A big center would be ideal of course but that slow-footed stiff Bell couldn't keep up with NHL play last season. Both Hagman and Mayers supposedly skate well, they would need a center who can keep up with them. Stajan isn't ideal either but at least he can keep up the tempo and is a willing defensive player. Perhaps Moore makes more sense although he is very limited offensively. Still, I won't be surprised that the Leafs audition Bell for this role with the experiment ending a few games into the season.

Why not push the issue?? What good has come from all of this?? You see McCabe cracking?, you think all this negative publicity has been good for Fletch and MLSE, you think McCabe is happy and going to be accomodating to MLSE?? It hasn't worked so far either buy him out or keep him on the team, and buying out a player that will have such a large cap hit for a long time is absolutely ridiculous IMO.The most mind blowing thing about all this, is that some people think McCabe will not help the team by staying? He is a very good D and has alot of great qualities that some of the younger players can learn from. Althouhg I have no proof, I have a hard time seeing how McCabe is such a problem in the dressing room, former captain, assitant captain and several players have talked about what a great leader he is and how important he is to the team. Fletch is pushing the issue, because he said he would, and doesn't want to look stupid in the process. Keep McCabe, let him play and see how it all shakes out. How do you know that if Kaberle being traded, Kubina being traded, Sundin not returning and Tucker being gone, and a possible reduction in McCabe's ice time, he would not want to leave anyway? That is a very real possibility.

The entire issue has been fueled by the media. The only quote from Fletch and Wilson is they don't want him on next years team. Big deal. When I read an article on anything leafs related I look for the quotes not the interpretation by the writer.

I definitely don't want McCabe or even Kubina taking away prime minutes from our youngsters on defence. It's time Coli gets a PP1 minutes and Stralman as well.

It's time to deal both (Kubina and McCabe) and move into a rebuild phase.

The entire issue has been fueled by the media. The only quote from Fletch and Wilson is they don't want him on next years team. Big deal. When I read an article on anything leafs related I look for the quotes not the interpretation by the writer.

I definitely don't want McCabe or even Kubina taking away prime minutes from our youngsters on defence. It's time Coli gets a PP1 minutes and Stralman as well.

It's time to deal both (Kubina and McCabe) and move into a rebuild phase.

Really, that's a total crock. I suppose you didn't see the anger in Fletch's eyes and disapointment he had when at the deadline he publicly mentioned he tried to trade all the NTC/NMC and they didn't waive them. For you to say Fletch has not gone to the media regarding Fletch either says you are a complete homer, you have a man crush on Fletch, or completely not acknowledge the facts. This is not about Fletch being a bad GM, or making mistakes, but the truth is he did go to the media. I agree both D should be traded for futures, but if Kubina and McCabe are Leafs into training camp and into the season I would like to see the reaction of some people on how Fletch decided to not move Kubina when he had the chance, but decided to push McCabe when he couldn't. As far as taking playing time away from the younger kids, the same could be said about Frogren and Finger, those two UFA's could take time away from the younger players.

I have to disagree on this one. A big center would be ideal of course but that slow-footed stiff Bell couldn't keep up with NHL play last season. Both Hagman and Mayers supposedly skate well, they would need a center who can keep up with them. Stajan isn't ideal either but at least he can keep up the tempo and is a willing defensive player. Perhaps Moore makes more sense although he is very limited offensively. Still, I won't be surprised that the Leafs audition Bell for this role with the experiment ending a few games into the season.

Even Antropov (who is currently slated as our #1 center) has trouble keeping up with the NHL level of skating but plays positional hockey very well.

Really, that's a total crock. I suppose you didn't see the anger in Fletch's eyes and disapointment he had when at the deadline he publicly mentioned he tried to trade all the NTC/NMC and they didn't waive them. For you to say Fletch has not gone to the media regarding Fletch either says you are a complete homer, you have a man crush on Fletch, or completely not acknowledge the facts.

Big deal he had anger in his eyes. I'm sure he's the first GM every in the history of the NHL to show any sort of emotion to the media. Again overblown by the media and leafs fans.


This is not about Fletch being a bad GM, or making mistakes, but the truth is he did go to the media. I agree both D should be traded for futures, but if Kubina and McCabe are Leafs into training camp and into the season I would like to see the reaction of some people on how Fletch decided to not move Kubina when he had the chance, but decided to push McCabe when he couldn't. As far as taking playing time away from the younger kids, the same could be said about Frogren and Finger, those two UFA's could take time away from the younger players.

Frogren and Finger are not top pairing defenceman therefore not taking up the key PP minutes I spoke of in my last post.

I would be infuriated with Fletch if Kubina is not dealt by August 15th for any reason. Period. You could also add resigning Sundin to that list as well.

The checking line he spoke of is the reason I think Bell will get the nod on the 3rd line instead of Stajan.

(Hagman Bell Mayers) Fits the mold much more then Stajan in the middle.

I have to disagree on this one. A big center would be ideal of course but that slow-footed stiff Bell couldn't keep up with NHL play last season. Both Hagman and Mayers supposedly skate well, they would need a center who can keep up with them. Stajan isn't ideal either but at least he can keep up the tempo and is a willing defensive player. Perhaps Moore makes more sense although he is very limited offensively. Still, I won't be surprised that the Leafs audition Bell for this role with the experiment ending a few games into the season.

I also think Hagman -- Moore and Mayers will be Leafs designated checking /energy line.

I have them penciled in on my team .. :)

http://messweb.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/line3.jpg

I also think Hagman -- Moore and Mayers will be Leafs designated checking /energy line.

I have them penciled in on my team .. :)

http://messweb.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/l3.jpg

Steen and Stajan will be two thirds of the checking line against the other team's best line, with the third being Devereaux or someone else.

I have to disagree on this one. A big center would be ideal of course but that slow-footed stiff Bell couldn't keep up with NHL play last season. Both Hagman and Mayers supposedly skate well, they would need a center who can keep up with them. Stajan isn't ideal either but at least he can keep up the tempo and is a willing defensive player. Perhaps Moore makes more sense although he is very limited offensively. Still, I won't be surprised that the Leafs audition Bell for this role with the experiment ending a few games into the season.

I also think Hagman -- Moore and Mayers will be Leafs designated checking /energy line.

I have them penciled in on my team .. :)

http://messweb.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/line3.jpg

Moore would be my second choice.

I prefer size down the middle though. Especially on our designated checking line.

As far as Stajan goes I'm not a fan. If he had more of an offensive upside (along with his defensive awareness) he would be the perfect second line player. Unfortunately that's not the case.

Moore would be my second choice.

I prefer size down the middle though. Especially on our designated checking line.

As far as Stajan goes I'm not a fan. If he had more of an offensive upside (along with his defensive awareness) he would be the perfect second line player. Unfortunately that's not the case.
I still think Bell would be a nice complement to those two players. Some scoring, toughness and speed.

I still think Bell would be a nice complement to those two players. Some scoring, toughness and speed.

Bell is barely on this team IMO. The only time he's scored in his career is when he was on a top line, the only reason he was on a top line is because Chicago had no one else, they were hoping he would become their franchise player just because he was drafted high. He can hit but he can't fight, he's the second coming of Chad Kilger with MORE off ice distractions/problems. Hopefully we'll get a 3rd round pick for him at the deadline.

. Hopefully we'll get a 3rd round pick for him at the deadline.

I would be all for it. :handclap:

If Kilger can get a 3rd.....

Bell is barely on this team IMO. The only time he's scored in his career is when he was on a top line, the only reason he was on a top line is because Chicago had no one else, they were hoping he would become their franchise player just because he was drafted high. He can hit but he can't fight, he's the second coming of Chad Kilger with MORE off ice distractions/problems. Hopefully we'll get a 3rd round pick for him at the deadline.
He's similar to Kilger, but a much better center and a better fighter. He isn't an amazing fighter, but he's a good fit for a checking line. He won't need to score a ton, but he can put the puck in the net at times. That line won't be counted on for scoring anyways.

Cliffo does some splainin about some of his moves(Finger,Tucker,Grabovski) a few youngins and the direction of the Leafs.He's high on Willy and Hayes.Its a few weeks old but interesting.
Bottom left corner.


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/

It's clear to me that MLSE doesn't want McCabe here. All i'm saying is I understand he is not in MLSE's plan, is it worth all this hassel just to get rid of him? That's my point in all of this. Fletch is trying to move something that he can't move, why keep pushing it? McCabe will not hurt the team, the cap hit is not crippling the team from doing other things, his experience is an asset to the younger players, McCabe has been mentioned as a good team guy, and previous captain. With all that being said, they tried to move him, didn;t work, I say leave it alone. At the end of the day, buying out McCabe and pushing him to leave has had np positive impact whatsoever, meanwhile there is this D man by the name of Kubina who can be moved for assets, I wonder why Fletch is taking the hard way rather than just trading Kubina towards building for the future? Keeping McCabe for the duration of his contract will not hurt the team one bit IMO, Kaberele can be traded next summer if the Leafs don;t make the playoffs, and Kubina can be moved now. If Kubina is not traded, and both he and McCabe are on the team or McCabe is bought out, that would be a ridiculous move by Fletch IMO. Who is to say McCabe would not want to be moved over time if, Tucker is gone, maybe Sundin, potentially Kubina this year and Kaberle next year? He just may want to leave anyway, let the chips fall where they may.

The situation does seem extreme, sort of like giving away your car for free or pushing it off the cliff so you can buy another one in a better colour.

The situation does seem extreme, sort of like giving away your car for free or pushing it off the cliff so you can buy another one in a better colour.

It's like owning an old Hummer. In theory it's worth money and it still runs but you know better than to burn that much expensive gas and no one wants to buy it off of you. You're better off with it sitting dormant in your driveway. You're even better off if some idiot stole the vehicle and drove it off a cliff.

The situation does seem extreme, sort of like giving away your car for free or pushing it off the cliff so you can buy another one in a better colour.

Depends on the colour Stephen. :sarcasm:

I think it's more a case of the Leafs leaving the car unlocked and the keys in the ignition in the hopes that someone tries to take it and it starts when that attempt is made.

They are not buying him out for a year or two yet if they ever do, just too much money right now.

It's like owning an old Hummer. In theory it's worth money and it still runs but you know better than to burn that much expensive gas and no one wants to buy it off of you. You're better off with it sitting dormant in your driveway. You're even better off if some idiot stole the vehicle and drove it off a cliff.

Kind of like buying a Prius and pushing the Hummer over a cliff to save $5k in gas money.

Kind of like buying a Prius and pushing the Hummer over a cliff to save $5k in gas money.

Since the high mileage Hummer isn't a particularly good vehicle any longer and no one wants it other than for scrap, it sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution. Sometimes you just have to take a hit for bad decisions made a few years ago.

My apologies to Hummer drivers. Oh, nevermind, you're a f'ing idiot if you bought one of those vehicles without a ton of disposal income.

Why not push the issue?? What good has come from all of this?? You see McCabe cracking?, you think all this negative publicity has been good for Fletch and MLSE, you think McCabe is happy and going to be accomodating to MLSE?? I

Fletcher has recently gone on record that he is fairly sure this issue will resolve itself in training camp.

Why not take him at his word and wait until then?

Fletcher has recently gone on record that he is fairly sure this issue will resolve itself in training camp.

Why not take him at his word and wait until then?

Much easier to hammer him until then.

Much easier to hammer him until then.

You'd think people wanted JFJ back in charge. It's bizarre.

You'd think people wanted JFJ back in charge. It's bizarre.

:biglaugh: Thank god he's out of here.

I still have trouble understanding what exactly it is some people were expecting Fletcher to do?

Keep Sundin
Keep Tucker
Keep McCabe
Keep Wellwood
Don't move Pony or Antropov
Don't move up the draft for a player we will all love.
Don't trade any of the extra draft picks acquired at the deadline.
Etc, Etc, Etc.

Might as well have kept Fergy around in that's the case. Everyone knew these changes were coming and A LOT MORE are on their way throughout the season.

Why not sit back, enjoy the losing this season, and reap the benefits of our losses come Draft 2009 and more then likely Draft 2010. :D

:biglaugh: Thank god he's out of here.

I still have trouble understanding what exactly it is some people were expecting Fletcher to do?



Might as well have kept Fergy around in that's the case. Everyone knew these changes were coming and A LOT MORE are on their way throughout the season.

Why not sit back, enjoy the losing this season, and reap the benefits of our losses come Draft 2009 and more then likely Draft 2010. :D

I think it's quite simple. Most of us were expecting a return for something. Since the deadline Fletcher has been unable to move anyone off the roster for anything. We could have just kept Fergie to do what Fletch has done so far. It seems like it's just as disorganized as ever in leafs land.

I think it's quite simple. Most of us were expecting a return for something. Since the deadline Fletcher has been unable to move anyone off the roster for anything. We could have just kept Fergie to do what Fletch has done so far. It seems like it's just as disorganized as ever in leafs land.


I hate to break this to you, but the Leafs were (and are) not precisely loaded with talent and attractive trade assets. And if not for the no-trade players' stance, we would be further ahead on the rebuild than we are, don't forget that. He's realized the team was crap(unlike Maurice and Ferguson, who thought they were good), and that the current Leaf core is not championship-calibre. Therefore you need to identify and acquire a new core of players. That is step 1, which is where we are at the moment. It's going to take time to fix this -- we're in the very bottom of the barrel right now along with the likes of the Isles and Panthers.

I hate to break this to you, but the Leafs were (and are) not precisely loaded with talent and attractive trade assets. And if not for the no-trade players' stance, we would be further ahead on the rebuild than we are, don't forget that.

He's realized the team was crap(unlike Maurice and Ferguson, who thought they were good), and that the current Leaf core is not championship-calibre.

Therefore you need to identify and acquire a new core of players.

That is step 1, which is where we are at the moment.

It's going to take time to fix this -- we're in the very bottom of the barrel right now along with the likes of the Isles and Panthers.

If he was moving the team forward it would be one thing, but he hasn't improved the team any.

He has only exchanged players. And as far as homeruns? I don't think he's hit one out of the infield.

And name one of the players he's brought in who has been on a winner?

Finger? No.
Hagman? No.
Mayers? No.
Hollweg? No.
Grabovski? No.
Joseph? No.

How many Cups has his new coach won?

As for JFj vs Fletcher? One has been in the business longer than one has been alive. Anyone who didn't know JFj was going to have growing pains was just plain naive. I don't grade someone with 40 years experience the same as someone

JFj - July 7, 1967
CF - August 16, 1935

JFj was a rookie, and rookies are going to make mistakes. I realize Leaf fans are not patient with rookies, but I can live with the mistakes.

I hate to break this to you, but the Leafs were (and are) not precisely loaded with talent and attractive trade assets. And if not for the no-trade players' stance, we would be further ahead on the rebuild than we are, don't forget that. He's realized the team was crap(unlike Maurice and Ferguson, who thought they were good), and that the current Leaf core is not championship-calibre. Therefore you need to identify and acquire a new core of players. That is step 1, which is where we are at the moment. It's going to take time to fix this -- we're in the very bottom of the barrel right now along with the likes of the Isles and Panthers.

I realize he had huge obstacles to overcome. I'm not naive in any. I wasn't in any way expecting he would have built us a cup winner for this coming season. I'm saying nothing he has done merrits all the cheers some guys are giving him. I'm simply saying receiving something for someone we've given up would be nice. I wasn't expecting a first rounder for Welly but something would have been nice. He has overpaid in every trade IMO and has bought out two guys and released another. He overpaid for another dman and moved none of the excisting ones. I understand the summer isn't over and there could still be moves made. I'm simply not gonna cheer him on for what he may do later in the summer or during the season. I'm grading him on what he's done so far. Since the deadline I view him as a failure.

If he was moving the team forward it would be one thing, but he hasn't improved the team any.

He has only exchanged players. And as far as homeruns? I don't think he's hit one out of the infield.

And name one of the players he's brought in who has been on a winner?

Finger? No.
Hagman? No.
Mayers? No.
Hollweg? No.
Grabovski? No.
Joseph? No.

How many Cups has his new coach won?

As for JFj vs Fletcher? One has been in the business longer than one has been alive. Anyone who didn't know JFj was going to have growing pains was just plain naive. I don't grade someone with 40 years experience the same as someone

JFj - July 7, 1967
CF - August 16, 1935

JFj was a rookie, and rookies are going to make mistakes. I realize Leaf fans are not patient with rookies, but I can live with the mistakes.

His goal was to bring in experienced cup winners? Maybe a coach that fit that bill would have been good. I thought the players he wanted to bring in were suppose to be fast, gritty, and young.

I have full confidence and I want him at the next draft day because he will definately do a good job.

In Fletcher's recent interview he said that you can't buy a winner, and you need to have young players on smaler contracts to be good. You need to draft well.

I'm simply not gonna cheer him on for what he may do later in the summer or during the season. I'm grading him on what he's done so far. Since the deadline I view him as a failure.

I want to cheer for Cliff.

I don't like White, but I don't boo him if he scores.

Unless they do all the work, someone usually doesn't get high praise for a 2nd. assist. Cliff is collecting 2nd. assists right now. The jury will be out on the Schenn deal for a while yet.

I think you are right or perhaps a little hard on him since the deadline, but if he was being graded it would be a marginal pass in my books. But even a strong pass isn't good enough. Unless your kid struggles in a subject you don't get all wobbly in the knees when they come home with a 'C'. If they usually fail that subject, you give them special praise for a pass.

Is Cliff a remedial GM today, that he gets praise for Hollweg, Hagman, Finger and buy-outs?

I still have trouble understanding what exactly it is some people were expecting Fletcher to do?

All I wanted him to do was get a better coach, the "changing the face of the team" and "the home run" he voluntarily promised.

his 2nd go around, average at best. good, not great. mixed decisions. from what I can remember...

- his deadline was not great. he was stuck trying to move players he really couldn't so all his assets were not to be moved. part of his job was to try and convince them I suppose. I dunno, I guess I just wish he found another 1st round pick out of the Muskoka 5 is all. He should have, and the draft has passed us by now.
- he didn't rush to re-sign Mats. I'll give him that. He's still not a Leaf, which means the direction is forward thinking.
- he got rid of smallish floaters and replaces them with hard workers. e.g. out Welly, Tucks, in Hagman, Mayers, Finger.
- I like the acquisition of Grabovski. The Leafs were lacking young skilled forwards and he plucked a player only out of the NHL due to a logjam on a solid team like the Habs.
- He has been careless with the dealing of picks. Careless. Unless he recoups them. Here we should be stockpiling for 3 years minimum and we are moving them out. Ridiculous.
- The Schenn pick is another example. I really like the pick, but looking how it panned out that 2nd pick plus Filatov would look a lot better long term. Another moment were Leaf management has valued size and strength over pure high end skill.
- The coach. He's good. Tough to make a judgement right now. How can you. He makes every team he coaches better. I don't hate or love the move. I am confused that the coach was replaced before the GM. The GM, the 'real GM', whenever we decides to appoint him should have picked his own coach. Instead we fire Maurice and keep Cliff who picked his coach, the one the new GM will have to deal with. I am sure it is only a matter of time before Wilson is a lame duck while the Leafs rebuild/lose and the new GM finds out he doesn't like him. I blame upper management here, not Cliff.

Truthfully it's Leaf management's own fault Fletch is still here. What was a perfectly acceptable 'interim' move has wrongfully turned into another full season in charge. The past season was a debacle. The direction was headed nowhere fast. What was needed was quick action to get the rebuild underway. Brian Burke is not even the best GM available imo. Waiting around another season I just don't like that move. Conduct interviews and higher the most qualified individual and let him start putting his stamp on the club right away instead of taking over a team half made over by another GM (which is what is happening now). Another short sighted move by an organization famous for making them.

He didn't promise a "home run".

I think it's quite simple. Most of us were expecting a return for something. Since the deadline Fletcher has been unable to move anyone off the roster for anything. We could have just kept Fergie to do what Fletch has done so far. It seems like it's just as disorganized as ever in leafs land.

Fergy had allegiances with almost all of players on last seasons roster. He would have just looked for the quick fix UFA in the summer and added more to the roster in hopes of making a run once again.

Let me be honest here, I'm not running out before the season starts to buy a Hagman, Mayers, Hollweg, Finger, Frogren, or Grabovski jersey. I'm probably most excited about getting rid of the players who have been here for an eternity and are well past their due date.

By the 09/10 season almost every player from the 07/08 team will be removed from this team. I for one am very excited about that possibility. I'm tired of watching the rerun hockey we've seen over the last three seasons under Quinn and Maurice. It's time for a change and changes are being made.

His goal was to bring in experienced cup winners? Maybe a coach that fit that bill would have been good. I thought the players he wanted to bring in were suppose to be fast, gritty, and young.

I have full confidence and I want him at the next draft day because he will definately do a good job.

In Fletcher's recent interview he said that you can't buy a winner, and you need to have young players on smaler contracts to be good. You need to draft well.

We don't have any evidence to this point to suggest he has drafted well in this centrury, but we remain hopeful.

Truthfully it's Leaf management's own fault Fletch is still here. What was a perfectly acceptable 'interim' move has wrongfully turned into another full season in charge.

The past season was a debacle. The direction was headed nowhere fast. What was needed was quick action to get the rebuild underway.

Brian Burke is not even the best GM available imo. Waiting around another season I just don't like that move. Conduct interviews and higher the most qualified individual and let him start putting his stamp on the club right away instead of taking over a team half made over by another GM (which is what is happening now).

Another short sighted move by an organization famous for making them.

Considering Bowman just signed on with the Hawks, I don't even have to speculate that Bowman was willing to leave the Wings for another team.

This strongly points in the direction that interference from MLSE is alive and well today, and that Cliff is just mouthing the words.

I realize he had huge obstacles to overcome. I'm not naive in any. I wasn't in any way expecting he would have built us a cup winner for this coming season. I'm saying nothing he has done merrits all the cheers some guys are giving him. I'm simply saying receiving something for someone we've given up would be nice. I wasn't expecting a first rounder for Welly but something would have been nice. He has overpaid in every trade IMO and has bought out two guys and released another. He overpaid for another dman and moved none of the excisting ones. I understand the summer isn't over and there could still be moves made. I'm simply not gonna cheer him on for what he may do later in the summer or during the season. I'm grading him on what he's done so far. Since the deadline I view him as a failure.

I agree. Moving Tucker was questionable. I don't like Tucker and I think his contract was crap, but they paid money for him to not be here, and I don't see how the organization has progressed with him gone for nothing in return. Maybe they get worse in the standings, and that will yield a higher pick, but it doesn't put as further ahead.

Wellwood and Raycroft are both dismal failures, but they're still young. Why not sit on them for the next season? Wellwood wasn't going to make much money anyway.

Getting rid of McCabe: ultra aggressive in the media, no results. Doesn't actually get us anything for the future.

Sundin's rights to Montreal: made absolutely no sense. We should have gotten something back for actually letting them talk to Sundin, not get compensation if they sign him. Stupid stupid.

Grabovski was an overpayment. A case of buying high.

Hagman and Finger, expensive long term deals to guys who might not deserve it. Just kind of sounds like a JFJ move to be honest.

Schenn pick for 3 picks, big gambit, for the sake of optimism I'll say we're breaking even.

Frogren was a decent flyer, but even that was fraught with controversy.

If he was moving the team forward it would be one thing, but he hasn't improved the team any.

He has only exchanged players.


What?

He got rid of the worst players on the team last year -- Tucker, Belak, Kilger, and Raycroft. He tried to trade some of the restricting contracts, but he wasn't the guy who anointed them with the clauses.


And name one of the players he's brought in who has been on a winner?

Finger? No.
Hagman? No.
Mayers? No.
Hollweg? No.
Grabovski? No.
Joseph? No.


Come on ULF, we already agreed these guys are filler. You need some veterans on the team, they have to at least ice some lines until we have a new core. I don't like the Wellwood/Grabovski maneuver, and have said so. But even that may turn out in our favour, I am not privy to how Wellwood behaved with team officials.


How many Cups has his new coach won?


Let's worry about that when we have a roster worth mentioning in the same sentence as the Cup. Wilson can coach defence and we haven't had a coach who can do that since Pat Burns.


As for JFj vs Fletcher? One has been in the business longer than one has been alive. Anyone who didn't know JFj was going to have growing pains was just plain naive. I don't grade someone with 40 years experience the same as someone

JFj - July 7, 1967
CF - August 16, 1935

JFj was a rookie, and rookies are going to make mistakes. I realize Leaf fans are not patient with rookies, but I can live with the mistakes.

Mistakes are one thing, total bungling incompetence quite another.
I would be shocked if Junior is ever a GM again. He's not cut out for it, especially in a market like this. I notice nobody has rushed to give him a job so far, which is a prediction some around here made.

that's a lot of picks to give up and a lot capsapce to commit (longterm) for "filler".

We don't have any evidence to this point to suggest he has drafted well in this centrury, but we remain hopeful.

Schenn, Hayes, Stefanovich, Flaake. Back when the league had no salary cap, he would effectively build teams through free agent signings etc. (Draft Schmaft)

Now he has acknowledged that teams need to be built through the draft. He has been with us for one draft during the salary cap era. He has done a great job.


He traded up to get the player that he thought would help the franchise the most.
He drafted Hayes, who plays like JVR, could be a boom or a bust.
He drafted Stefanovich, who passed through to the 4th round, and is a highly skilled player.

Are you dissapointed with the job he did? I wasn't, I can't wait for the next one, assuming he is still running the show untill after the draft.

Schenn, Hayes, Stefanovich, Flaake. Back when the league had no salary cap, he would effectively build teams through free agent signings etc. (Draft Schmaft)

Now he has acknowledged that teams need to be built through the draft. He has been with us for one draft during the salary cap era. He has done a great job.


He traded up to get the player that he thought would help the franchise the most.
He drafted Hayes, who plays like JVR, could be a boom or a bust.
He drafted Stefanovich, who passed through to the 4th round, and is a highly skilled player.

Are you dissapointed with the job he did? I wasn't, I can't wait for the next one, assuming he is still running the show untill after the draft.

Mostly it was still JFJ's draft because Fletcher didn't mess with the amateur scouting in any way whatsoever, gave them extensions actually.

This strongly points in the direction that interference from MLSE is alive and well today, and that Cliff is just mouthing the words.

I agree. Moving Tucker was questionable. I don't like Tucker and I think his contract was crap, but they paid money for him to not be here, and I don't see how the organization has progressed with him gone for nothing in return. Maybe they get worse in the standings, and that will yield a higher pick, but it doesn't put as further ahead.



Mistakes are one thing, total bungling incompetence quite another.
I would be shocked if Junior is ever a GM again. He's not cut out for it, especially in a market like this. I notice nobody has rushed to give him a job so far, which is a prediction some around here made.

that's a lot of picks to give up and a lot capsapce to commit (longterm) for "filler".

No doubt some of Fletch's moves are gambles BUT the bigger question is:

Could Wilson implement the system he wants to with all of those players still around?

I think we'll have to wait until the season starts to see how this plays out.

Since the buyout window is closed and the McCabe camp unsuccessful in its attempt to to force one, then we have to look deeper to find the reason why.

I believe the motivation lies in the "NO INTEREST" claim in McCabe as Fletcher says, and we know McCabe's contract is likely a factor creating the problem in this. If McCabe drops his NMC stance in a time when no one is willing to acquire him, then that reflects poorly on him, even to the point of bordering on embarrassing.

Until that $2 mil summer deferred bonus that is owed payable on Sept 15th to McCabe is paid by MLSE, I believe its in McCabe's best interest to remain in this stalemate position protected personally by the NMC defense shield. Unwilling to move via NMC excuse, is a better position for McCabe then exposing himself to the possibility that no one wants him at his current price.

Unless some team comes calling with a decent offer and location that McCabe would accept, which Fletcher then brings to the McCabe camp and asks him to waive his NMC, there is no reason for this current situation to change. The reason I used the words "decent offer" is that every man has pride, and what will be viewed as McCabe's market value will be the return received in trade... So being traded for a bag or pucks or 7th round pick or future considerations all reflect negatively on McCabe personally.

After Sept 15th, 2008 McCabe becomes a 3 year $4.125 mil real money expense and the $5.75 mil cap hit an added bonus to teams like NYI and ATL looking to reach the Cap floor. This is when I expect to see movement and Cliff being able to resolve this situation with McCabe's assistance.

The Isles currently have a payroll of 42 million. Even if no player makes his bonuses (I believe they have possible bonuses of 3 - 4 million), and there are no injuries, no further acquisitions, and no callups from the AHL, they're already above the floor. I expect though that their final cap hit will be in the 45 million range.

Right now, I think the Isles are right at both ownership's internal payroll as well as slightly above the cap minimum. So, any future trades will have to be payroll neutral. For example, if the McCabe to the Isles stuff that you guys have focused on so extensively were to be realized, you'd pretty much have to take Sutton's contract in return.

Atlanta is also pretty close. I think their current cap, excluding bonuses and AHL callups is about $38 million. One more depth signing before camp, or callup of any player on a two-way, and the're in as well.

The only team that is in real trouble with regard to the cap floor (that I know of) is LA.

Here are the numbers:

http://www.nhlnumbers.com/compare.php?season=0809

At least for this year, there is no team other than the Kings that "needs" a big contract.

Incidently, as far as I know, the CBA does not contain specific penalties for missing the floor. So, I'm not sure teams will be all that worried about that issue.

Somebody ought to e-mail a copy of some of your posts regarding McCabe's contract to Darren Dreger. Honestly, I've never seen such a systematic and compelling analysis of a complex contract anywhere in print. I've said this before - but some of your posts on the topic are mind-bendingly impressive.

Mostly it was still JFJ's draft because Fletcher didn't mess with the amateur scouting in any way whatsoever, gave them extensions actually.

:dunno: He could have ditched them. He chose to kept them, and he was the head of management during draft.

leafs will have to suffer, for a bit, if they truely want to rebuild,

time will tell if they go that way for real

What?

He got rid of the worst players on the team last year -- Tucker, Belak, Kilger, and Raycroft. He tried to trade some of the restricting contracts, but he wasn't the guy who anointed them with the clauses.


Tucker stinks but he wasn't our worst. He was roughly on par with Ponikarovsky and Stajan for production, and way better than Mark Bell, who ideally should have been waived or bought out.