MLD #9 Round One - Humboldt Indians versus Vancouver Giants

Transplanted Caper
09-02-2008, 04:41 PM
HUMBOLDT INDIANS
GM: God Bless Canada
Coach: Tom Johnson
Assistant Coach: Ernie "Punch" McLean
Captain: Don Sweeney
Alternate Captain: John Wensink
Alternate Captain: Rick Green
Alternate Captain: Syl Apps Jr.


FORWARDS
Dennis Hextall-Billy Taylor-Zigmund Palffy
Marc Tardif-Dave Gagner-Lorne Carr
Dave Reid-Syl Apps Jr.-Rejean Houle
John Wensink-Mike Richards-"Cowboy" Bill Flett
Herb Carnegie

DEFENCEMEN
Dave Manson-Jay Bouwmeester
Darryl Sydor-John Van Boxmeer
Rick Green-Don Sweeney
Harold Snepsts

GOALTENDERS
Kirk McLean
Marty Turco

Vancouver Giants
Coach: Brian Kilrea
Assistant Coach: Dwight McMillan
Assistant Coach: Phil Esposito
Captain: Frantisek Tikal
Alternate Captain: Boris Mayorov
Alternate Captain: Cliff Ronning

Boris Mayorov (A) - Andre Lacroix - Pavol Demitra
Yevgeny Mayorov - Cliff Ronning (A) - Ulf Dahlen
Nick Libett - Thomas Gradin - Al MacAdam
Morris Lukowich - Laurie Boschman - Doug Brown


Goldie Prodgers - Frantisek Tikal (C)
Doug Young - Joe Jerwa
Lee Fogolin Jr. - Leo Reise Sr.
Dana Murzyn

Roland "Rollie" Melanson
"King" Richard Brodeur

PP1: Demitra - Lacroix - Dahlen - Prodgers - Jerwa
PP2: Y. Mayorov - Gradin - B. Mayorov - Tikal - Fogolin Jr.

PK1: Libett - Boschman - Prodgers - Tikal
PK2: Lukowich - Ronning - Jerwa - Reise Sr.

vancityluongo
09-02-2008, 05:57 PM
GBC? Again!?! lol. I think this is the 3rd or 4th time we've met up, and I've only been in these since ATD7.

Transplanted Caper
09-02-2008, 06:36 PM
GBC? Again!?! lol. I think this is the 3rd or 4th time we've met up, and I've only been in these since ATD7.

I noticed that when I put the votes together. Pretty wild. Anyways, this looks to be a really interesting series from my perspective.

God Bless Canada
09-02-2008, 08:18 PM
I'm getting tired of playing VCL, too.

I think there are some really favourable match-ups for us. Edge in coaching. Edge behind the bench. Edge with role players and defensive guys.

We're going to try to get the Richards line out there against the Lacroix line. We really like a Wensink-Demitra match-up. Especially in playoff time with the ultra-soft, brittle Demitra, who has a history of fading, badly, in the playoffs.

And we'll get the Apps line out there against the Ronning line. Match up spped and smarts with speed and smarts.

We'll want our shut-down pairing of Green-Sweeney - the best in the draft - out there against one of the top two lines as much as possible. The Bouwmeester-Manson tandem will also be leaned on due to their mobility and combination of defensive awareness (Jay-Bouw) and toughness (Manson).

I like Gradin's skill and playoff record. But is Gradin good enough defensively to play against a player like Billy Taylor? And can he stand up to the physical pressure of Dave Gagner?

I like Boschman as a good fourth line grinder, but as a guy who can log minutes against Taylor and shut him down, I think he's lacking. This team could have really used someone like a Bobby Bassen, who was an exceptional defensive centre.

Dana Murzyn could be a real liability. If he's out there at 5-on-5 against guys like Taylor, Palffy, Carr and Tardif, he could be in a lot of trouble due to his speed issues. He had very good hockey sense and anticipation, which enabled him to stay in the NHL for so long. But his mobility will be a real issue.

I like the head coach and Winnipeg's assistant coach. A lot. Probably my two favourite coaches in the draft. But in a tandem? Not as much. And has Espo ever been a coach? Great leader, but I don't think he has any coaching experience. Edge to Humboldt there.

I like Melanson as a solid, high-character, experienced back-up. No. 1? Not a chance. Better off as a back-up. Our two goalies are both better than what the Giants have to offer.

It's a pretty close series up front and on the blue-line, but the Indians have difference-maker edges in net and behind the bench.

vancityluongo
09-02-2008, 10:42 PM
Don't have time so I'll say two things:

-First off, good luck. Although we've met up many times, I look forward to discussing this matchup with you.

-Second, a quick point, Espo was a coach. NY Rangers, late 90's.

Edit: 80's not 90's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_Coaches_of_the_New_York_Rangers

God Bless Canada
09-03-2008, 12:20 AM
Don't have time so I'll say two things:

-First off, good luck. Although we've met up many times, I look forward to discussing this matchup with you.

-Second, a quick point, Espo was a coach. NY Rangers, late 90's.

Edit: 80's not 90's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_Coaches_of_the_New_York_Rangers
The less said about Espo's stints as Rangers coach, the better. They were disastrous. Two playoff wins in 12 games. No series wins. Don't remember much about the 87 playoffs. But in 89, they were a mess. Espo took over the team late in the season, and they were swept by Pittsburgh in a 2008 Senators-esque performance.

vancityluongo
09-03-2008, 07:01 PM
I'm getting tired of playing VCL, too.

I think there are some really favourable match-ups for us. Edge in coaching. Edge behind the bench. Edge with role players and defensive guys.

We're going to try to get the Richards line out there against the Lacroix line. We really like a Wensink-Demitra match-up. Especially in playoff time with the ultra-soft, brittle Demitra, who has a history of fading, badly, in the playoffs.

And we'll get the Apps line out there against the Ronning line. Match up spped and smarts with speed and smarts.

We'll want our shut-down pairing of Green-Sweeney - the best in the draft - out there against one of the top two lines as much as possible. The Bouwmeester-Manson tandem will also be leaned on due to their mobility and combination of defensive awareness (Jay-Bouw) and toughness (Manson).

I like Gradin's skill and playoff record. But is Gradin good enough defensively to play against a player like Billy Taylor? And can he stand up to the physical pressure of Dave Gagner?

I like Boschman as a good fourth line grinder, but as a guy who can log minutes against Taylor and shut him down, I think he's lacking. This team could have really used someone like a Bobby Bassen, who was an exceptional defensive centre.

Dana Murzyn could be a real liability. If he's out there at 5-on-5 against guys like Taylor, Palffy, Carr and Tardif, he could be in a lot of trouble due to his speed issues. He had very good hockey sense and anticipation, which enabled him to stay in the NHL for so long. But his mobility will be a real issue.

I like the head coach and Winnipeg's assistant coach. A lot. Probably my two favourite coaches in the draft. But in a tandem? Not as much. And has Espo ever been a coach? Great leader, but I don't think he has any coaching experience. Edge to Humboldt there.

I like Melanson as a solid, high-character, experienced back-up. No. 1? Not a chance. Better off as a back-up. Our two goalies are both better than what the Giants have to offer.

It's a pretty close series up front and on the blue-line, but the Indians have difference-maker edges in net and behind the bench.

All right, time to address these points.

I'll give you edge in net, I love McLean, and while I'm confident in my duo, I'll admit I like yours better. Arguing otherwise is a waste of time, although, I do think you don't give my guys enough credit. I'll get into that a bit later.

Richards against Lacroix? Go for it. Wensink may cause Demitra some problems, but I'm more then confident that a tandem of Mayorov and Lacroix can undress the rest of your line.

I have two options in terms of matching up lines defensively. I was hoping to face a more defensive team so I could use Gradin as a third scoring line, but with that out of the question I think I'm gonna switch Gradin and Ronning around. Didn't watch much of Ronning, but from what I've heard from my dad and others is that he was a smart two-way guy. Combined with the smart defensive game of Nick Libett, who IMO is one of the better defensive wingers in this draft, and Al MacAdam, I think that's a decent two-way line, with a ton of smarts. They'll match up against the Taylor line, if we get our way (although if my hunch is correct, we don't have home ice...)

The second line will now be Mayorov-Gradin-Dahlen, a nice blend of physicality and scoring.

As for Dana Murzyn, he's my 7th defensemen. And my top-6 is so strong, that he shouldn't need to see much time. And even if he does, it'll be sparingly. Don't really see what you're getting at there.

Speaking of my top-6, here's a PM from Evil Speaker, on Joe Jerwa:

Jerwa was one of the few defensemen that I had pegged as a potential #1. It's amazing that you already have 3 them. Jerwa wasn;t only a hard checking defender, he also put up great offensive numbers while playing on awful teams. In the 1930's Jerwa placed in the top ten in points by defensemen five times in seven seasons 2nd 4th 6th 6th 8th So he is one of the best all-around defensemen in the draft.

Prodgers is described as a hard hitting yet clean, and extremely fast skating guy. From what I've read about him, I honestly think he should've been voted as my team's MVP.

Rounding out my top-3, Frantisek Tikal (RIP) was called a "force with the Czechoslovak National team from 1957 to 1965". Tikal was selected as the best defensemen of the world championships, twice.

Overall, I believe I have a decent advantage on defense.



As for coaching, oh boy is this interesting.

I had one thing in mind when drafting my second assistant; they likelyhood of facing you GBC. I knew however, regardless of what team I faced, you would likely comment on the matchup, and how I lacked that fun loving assistant. The moment you commented on Dwight and Kilrea being bad cops, one thing came to my mind. I needed a good cop. A really good cop. Someone like Seth Rogen off of Superbad. :D

The first name that came to mind was Jeremy Roenick. But, no, he has never coached, as far as I know. Then I thought of Patrick Roy. Yeah he's coached. But he's a hothead. Nah. Then I thought of Espo. My favourite old player ever. His autobiography book is amazing, and possibly one of my favourite books. One quick search on google, and he was a coach in the NHL. Boom. I could've easily gone with another good cop coach, maybe even a legendary one like Alpo Suhonen. Famous, famous, famous European coach. But drafting Espo felt right. It's the MLD, it's all good.

And while the more indepth I get into Espo's coaching record, he's there to lighten up the dressing room, share a story or two when there's a stressful situation with the coaches. Yeah, I didn't need it, I may have been better off with another forward or something, but whatever.

As for goaltending, I give McLean the edge over both my guys. But I'm not a huge Turco fan. This isn't the regular season anymore. Turco has been awful over the course of his career in the postseason, although his last two have made up for that somewhat (stupid Canucks players shooting right into him). Still like I said, I give you the edge there.

Overall, IMO I agree that forwards are a wash, I like my defense and coaching better, while I give you the (slight ;)) advantage in net.

seventieslord
09-04-2008, 01:25 AM
VCL is making a good case so far. For the regular season I liked Humboldt's squad better, but I am really going to have to dig deeper on this one. Does one lineup have a lot of playoff chokers or moment seizers? That could do it for me, at this point.

God Bless Canada
09-04-2008, 05:59 PM
All right, time to address these points.

I'll give you edge in net, I love McLean, and while I'm confident in my duo, I'll admit I like yours better. Arguing otherwise is a waste of time, although, I do think you don't give my guys enough credit. I'll get into that a bit later.

Richards against Lacroix? Go for it. Wensink may cause Demitra some problems, but I'm more then confident that a tandem of Mayorov and Lacroix can undress the rest of your line.

I have two options in terms of matching up lines defensively. I was hoping to face a more defensive team so I could use Gradin as a third scoring line, but with that out of the question I think I'm gonna switch Gradin and Ronning around. Didn't watch much of Ronning, but from what I've heard from my dad and others is that he was a smart two-way guy. Combined with the smart defensive game of Nick Libett, who IMO is one of the better defensive wingers in this draft, and Al MacAdam, I think that's a decent two-way line, with a ton of smarts. They'll match up against the Taylor line, if we get our way (although if my hunch is correct, we don't have home ice...)

The second line will now be Mayorov-Gradin-Dahlen, a nice blend of physicality and scoring.

As for Dana Murzyn, he's my 7th defensemen. And my top-6 is so strong, that he shouldn't need to see much time. And even if he does, it'll be sparingly. Don't really see what you're getting at there.

Speaking of my top-6, here's a PM from Evil Speaker, on Joe Jerwa:



Prodgers is described as a hard hitting yet clean, and extremely fast skating guy. From what I've read about him, I honestly think he should've been voted as my team's MVP.

Rounding out my top-3, Frantisek Tikal (RIP) was called a "force with the Czechoslovak National team from 1957 to 1965". Tikal was selected as the best defensemen of the world championships, twice.

Overall, I believe I have a decent advantage on defense.



As for coaching, oh boy is this interesting.

I had one thing in mind when drafting my second assistant; they likelyhood of facing you GBC. I knew however, regardless of what team I faced, you would likely comment on the matchup, and how I lacked that fun loving assistant. The moment you commented on Dwight and Kilrea being bad cops, one thing came to my mind. I needed a good cop. A really good cop. Someone like Seth Rogen off of Superbad. :D

The first name that came to mind was Jeremy Roenick. But, no, he has never coached, as far as I know. Then I thought of Patrick Roy. Yeah he's coached. But he's a hothead. Nah. Then I thought of Espo. My favourite old player ever. His autobiography book is amazing, and possibly one of my favourite books. One quick search on google, and he was a coach in the NHL. Boom. I could've easily gone with another good cop coach, maybe even a legendary one like Alpo Suhonen. Famous, famous, famous European coach. But drafting Espo felt right. It's the MLD, it's all good.

And while the more indepth I get into Espo's coaching record, he's there to lighten up the dressing room, share a story or two when there's a stressful situation with the coaches. Yeah, I didn't need it, I may have been better off with another forward or something, but whatever.

As for goaltending, I give McLean the edge over both my guys. But I'm not a huge Turco fan. This isn't the regular season anymore. Turco has been awful over the course of his career in the postseason, although his last two have made up for that somewhat (stupid Canucks players shooting right into him). Still like I said, I give you the edge there.

Overall, IMO I agree that forwards are a wash, I like my defense and coaching better, while I give you the (slight ;)) advantage in net.

It's a very big advantage for Humboldt in net. Melanson is not good enough to be a No. 1 goalie in an MLD. He will not be able to handle our array of offensive players. Turco has proven himself with his last two playoff performances.

One thing not mentioned with our significant edge in net is that McLean and Turco are the two best playmaking goaltenders in the draft. Their playmaking abilities give us the ability to break down systems, capitalize on the transition game, and break out quickly on the power play.

If VCL tries to carry the puck in, it will play into our defensive depth with Green, Sweeney, Bouwmeester and Manson. If he tries a dump and chase game, McLean will quickly advance the puck to the forwards on the counterattack.

VCL really underestimates Tom Johnson. Johnson might be the second-best coach available in the draft, behind only Rudy Pilous. He was an excellent player's coach, but he brought a strong strategical mind, too. He'll be complimented by the no-nonsense strategist and entertaining Punch McLean.

I enjoyed Espo's book. It's a good book to sit on the patio and read while chomping a cigar and drinking a beer. But you have to know what you're getting into. There's a lot of half-truths and no-truths in that book. As a coach, he was terrible. It's one thing to have the good cop, but the good cop has to be a good coach. Espo was not. He was a terrible coach. You needed a good players coach to offset Kilrea and McMillan. You got a players coach, but Espo was far from a good one. Worst coach ever drafted in the MLD or ATD.

Our edge behind the bench is even greater than our edge in goal.

Cliff Ronning was nont a defensive presence. He's one-dimensional offence. I watched him play a lot of hockey, and while he was a solid offensive guy, he's a non-factor defensively. I love Ronning, but defensively, against any of my centres, we'll have a big edge in match-ups.

I think you made an error in judgement taking both Ronning and Gradin. Both are good enough to play a second line scoring role. But that's the only role they're capable of playing in this. One of them should be on the bench.

Did you see the job that Richards did on Ovechkin in last year's playoffs? He was terrific. If you don't think he's good enough for a fourth line role in the MLD, you didn't watch last year's playoffs. At 23, he's already one of the top two-way players in the game.

Demitra is probably the best match-up we could have asked for with John Wensink. You hit Demitra, he disappears. Wensink will hit Demitra. A lot. And you won't get anything from him.

Your defence is strong. Joe Jerwa was a find. Your personnel is stronger, but personnel is only part of the battle. How will they play as a collective unit? At the end of the day, that's what matters. And we know our defence will play great as a collective unit.

But is your team defence strong? Not with Lacroix, Ronning, Gradin, Demitra and company. Your defencemen will be facing a lot of odd-man situations. Against skilled guys. And they won't be able to stop every rush. And your goaltending definitely won't be able to stop us.

vancityluongo
09-04-2008, 07:10 PM
It's a very big advantage for Humboldt in net. Melanson is not good enough to be a No. 1 goalie in an MLD. He will not be able to handle our array of offensive players. Turco has proven himself with his last two playoff performances.

One thing not mentioned with our significant edge in net is that McLean and Turco are the two best playmaking goaltenders in the draft. Their playmaking abilities give us the ability to break down systems, capitalize on the transition game, and break out quickly on the power play.

If VCL tries to carry the puck in, it will play into our defensive depth with Green, Sweeney, Bouwmeester and Manson. If he tries a dump and chase game, McLean will quickly advance the puck to the forwards on the counterattack.

VCL really underestimates Tom Johnson. Johnson might be the second-best coach available in the draft, behind only Rudy Pilous. He was an excellent player's coach, but he brought a strong strategical mind, too. He'll be complimented by the no-nonsense strategist and entertaining Punch McLean.

I enjoyed Espo's book. It's a good book to sit on the patio and read while chomping a cigar and drinking a beer. But you have to know what you're getting into. There's a lot of half-truths and no-truths in that book. As a coach, he was terrible. It's one thing to have the good cop, but the good cop has to be a good coach. Espo was not. He was a terrible coach. You needed a good players coach to offset Kilrea and McMillan. You got a players coach, but Espo was far from a good one. Worst coach ever drafted in the MLD or ATD.

Our edge behind the bench is even greater than our edge in goal.

Cliff Ronning was nont a defensive presence. He's one-dimensional offence. I watched him play a lot of hockey, and while he was a solid offensive guy, he's a non-factor defensively. I love Ronning, but defensively, against any of my centres, we'll have a big edge in match-ups.

I think you made an error in judgement taking both Ronning and Gradin. Both are good enough to play a second line scoring role. But that's the only role they're capable of playing in this. One of them should be on the bench.

Did you see the job that Richards did on Ovechkin in last year's playoffs? He was terrific. If you don't think he's good enough for a fourth line role in the MLD, you didn't watch last year's playoffs. At 23, he's already one of the top two-way players in the game.

Demitra is probably the best match-up we could have asked for with John Wensink. You hit Demitra, he disappears. Wensink will hit Demitra. A lot. And you won't get anything from him.

Your defence is strong. Joe Jerwa was a find. Your personnel is stronger, but personnel is only part of the battle. How will they play as a collective unit? At the end of the day, that's what matters. And we know our defence will play great as a collective unit.

But is your team defence strong? Not with Lacroix, Ronning, Gradin, Demitra and company. Your defencemen will be facing a lot of odd-man situations. Against skilled guys. And they won't be able to stop every rush. And your goaltending definitely won't be able to stop us.

Although I'm sick of playing you, I'm not going to grow tired of debating with you anytime soon GBC. :)

Now, for the counter attack.

If it's really that big of a deal, then I don't even need to use Melanson as my full time starter. I see you haven't brought up Brodeur, who, although I absolutely hate to bring this up as an argument, is your classic MLD starter. I have no problems starting him, regardless of whether or not I drafted Melanson earlier. Like I said, I give you the goaltending advantage, but you're really exaggerating a lot of things IMO.

For example, Turco and McLean, while both solid puckhandlers, are not going to be obliterating my defense. Those long bombs that Turco was using to penetrate the defense of I believe San Jose may work once or twice, but definitely not after that. Same thing with McLean, I never got to watch him all that much, at least in his prime, but I really don't think he'll be a puckhandling magician for you. Your goalies may help your transition on the PP, but other then that, it isn't that big of a benefit. The way you're trying to make it sound as if a dump and chase game won't work; while McLean may intercept the puck a few times, and will probably take away at least a few scoring opportunities, IMO, you're overestimating McLean if you think any sort of dump and chase game will no longer work.

Also to defend my goaltending, I really don't see why Melanson is such a weak starter as your claiming he is. He had a couple of atrocious seasons with above 4.00 GAA, although in that era, it isn't nearly as bad as it sounds. In his prime though, he had a couple of stellar seasons, along with those 3 cups. And while he wasn't the starter for those three cups, neither of your goalies have one cup between both of them. The best either has done is make the finals once - of course, Kirk in '94. As you very well know though GBC, Brodeur also made it to the finals - '82.

I may very well be underestimating your coaching. Truthfully, I have no idea about either of them. All I know is you've been pimping them both. :D

As for my coaching, I realize Espo is probably the worst coach ever selected in these drafts. But he isn't my head coach. He isn't my main assistant. He plays an extremely minor role on my team. Espo could be gone for this playoff series, and I don't think it'd effect much. The book may have a lot of BS, but you can't deny he's a fun old guy. I've seen him many times on TV, he's an entertaining guy.

Regardless, if needed, we can pretend that I never drafted him. It doesn't mess up my coaching completely though. Fact is, Kilrea and Dwight or both extremely good coaches. It's hard to be a badass bad cop coach. Most good guys can't pull it off. But I find it hard to imagine these guys are so coldhearted that players start tuning them out or something. I feel more confident actually that my players don't start slacking and floating in the middle of a playoff game than I would with two friendly players coaches.

As for Gradin and Ronning, I wanted my 2nd and 3rd lines to have two-way centers, capable of offensive numbers, while also giving me the comfort of not having to worry about mental lapses in judgment. They may not be the best players "defensively", but neither Gradin nor Ronning are lacking in the hockey sense department. My judgment may have been off by drafting them both (FWIW, I had actually had Gagner in mind from the start as my 2nd line C, but decided to go with Ronning for whatever reason, I don't think there's much difference between the two) however, I still don't see why I have to bench one of them? Many teams roll three offensive lines. Just because I'm not matching your offensive lines with my "designated defensive lines" I don't think you'll be scoring at free will or anything. Heck, I may be mistaken, but IIRC, you're one of the biggest advocates of having balanced forward lines with physical two-way players.

As for Richards, he did do a good job shutting down Ovechkin. However, Ovechkin had little for a supporting cast. Lacroix is a similar player to Ovechkin, in both are amazingly gifted offensively, Ovechkin even perhaps moreso. Still, IIRC, Richards had help from Hatcher, Timonen, and Coburn, all big defensemen, who were good in that series. You have a couple physical guys, but if you team them all up on a particular player, you'll be in trouble. Richards for the most part was extremely physical with Ovechkin, and he didn't have much support from anyone else on his team. Semin, Fedorov, Mike Green...no one from what I remember did anything. It was AO vs. the big bad Philadelphia Flyers led by Mike Richards.

I'm tired of typing, and I can't think, I'm going to go lurk around the Canucks boards for a bit, I'll be back to talk about your forwards in a bit. :)

vancityluongo
09-04-2008, 07:56 PM
I'm not going to add too much, without reading your responses but...

You criticize me for having no "true shutdown" center. Where is the shutdown center on your roster GBC? You yourself said Apps was similar to Ronning. Gagner, while physical, isn't much better then Ronning either. Billy Taylor? No idea about his defensive play, but you can match your top line against my top line if you'd like, I'm fine with that, as I like my secondary scoring better.

As for the defensive center that I do see on your roster, Mike Richards, it can be argued that he's a MLD calibre player after his last playoffs, but I'll use the exact argument you used against Boschman; he won't be able to handle the ice time needed to constantly and consistently matchup against my top line. And while I don't agree with that assessment on Boschman, I feel a lot more comfortable with him than I would with Richards. No slight against Richards, who is going to be Philly's next captain, (sadly, he could've been a Canuck) and is one of my favourite players in the league, but he's only been in the league for a couple years, and broke out this year.

One thing I've noticed, that's a small (in size) top-6 compared to your previous teams. Mine isn't any bigger though, so that point is moot, just an observation.

I'll add more when you respond to this and my previous post.

God Bless Canada
09-04-2008, 08:09 PM
I'm not going to add too much, without reading your responses but...

You criticize me for having no "true shutdown" center. Where is the shutdown center on your roster GBC? You yourself said Apps was similar to Ronning. Gagner, while physical, isn't much better then Ronning either. Billy Taylor? No idea about his defensive play, but you can match your top line against my top line if you'd like, I'm fine with that, as I like my secondary scoring better.

As for the defensive center that I do see on your roster, Mike Richards, it can be argued that he's a MLD calibre player after his last playoffs, but I'll use the exact argument you used against Boschman; he won't be able to handle the ice time needed to constantly and consistently matchup against my top line. And while I don't agree with that assessment on Boschman, I feel a lot more comfortable with him than I would with Richards. No slight against Richards, who is going to be Philly's next captain, (sadly, he could've been a Canuck) and is one of my favourite players in the league, but he's only been in the league for a couple years, and broke out this year.

One thing I've noticed, that's a small (in size) top-6 compared to your previous teams. Mine isn't any bigger though, so that point is moot, just an observation.

I'll add more when you respond to this and my previous post.
Where did I say Apps was similar to Ronning? Apps was better offensively and defensively than Ronning. I noted that there is speed and smarts similarities, but not overall talent or style of play similarities. There is no comparison. Apps is a good two-way centre for this thing who can play against a top centre. In our case, we'll use him against Ronning. Or Gradin. We'll save Richards for Lacroix, so that Wensink can add to Demitra's reputation as an underperformer.

I watched Richards. I watched Boschman. No contest. Richards was a cut above Boschman defensively. (Keep in mind I've had Boschman in three MLDs). Boschman is good defensively and double-tough. Richards is excellent defensively (if the current Selke standards remain, Richards will win a couple Selkes) and very tough. And he's smarter than Boschman.

You're right when you say that we aren't as big or as tough as we usually are. But this is the MLD. You aren't going to find many power forwards. And the small, sleek forwards like Palffy, Taylor and Carr are more likely to succeed here than in the ATD. There isn't the calibre of defencemen in this thing like there is in the ATD. Palffy wouldn't be much of a factor in the ATD. But in the MLD, he's the most dangerous goal-scorer in the draft.

vancityluongo
09-04-2008, 11:30 PM
Where did I say Apps was similar to Ronning? Apps was better offensively and defensively than Ronning. I noted that there is speed and smarts similarities, but not overall talent or style of play similarities. There is no comparison. Apps is a good two-way centre for this thing who can play against a top centre. In our case, we'll use him against Ronning. Or Gradin. We'll save Richards for Lacroix, so that Wensink can add to Demitra's reputation as an underperformer.

I watched Richards. I watched Boschman. No contest. Richards was a cut above Boschman defensively. (Keep in mind I've had Boschman in three MLDs). Boschman is good defensively and double-tough. Richards is excellent defensively (if the current Selke standards remain, Richards will win a couple Selkes) and very tough. And he's smarter than Boschman.

You're right when you say that we aren't as big or as tough as we usually are. But this is the MLD. You aren't going to find many power forwards. And the small, sleek forwards like Palffy, Taylor and Carr are more likely to succeed here than in the ATD. There isn't the calibre of defencemen in this thing like there is in the ATD. Palffy wouldn't be much of a factor in the ATD. But in the MLD, he's the most dangerous goal-scorer in the draft.

My mistake on Apps, I found tons of info on his dad while doing a Google search, unfortunately, that doesn't help much.

Richards very likely will win a couple Selkes. I've bolded the key word here. He hasn't done so yet. And until he does, your point isn't valid, as far as I'm concerned. :)

God Bless Canada
09-04-2008, 11:44 PM
Just a quick note on Melanson's playoff record: while he did win three rings, those were all as a back-up. He played a total of 11 games. He had six decisions, which means he probably only started half of those games. Six starts? That was a first round series victory for McLean against Winnipeg in 1993.

A 4-9 record. 23 games total. An .839 save percentage in his final three appearances. And a career 4.42 GAA in the playoffs. It's a limited sampling, but 23 games is a better sampling for a goaltender than a forward or a defenceman.

He's a good-guy back-up in the MLD. As a No. 1, he's a total liability.

seventieslord
09-05-2008, 03:57 PM
Regarding Esposito... everything GBC is saying appears to be true. But I wouldn't hold the selection of Espo against the team. I can see why VCL selected him. You can claim his positive effect to be negligible, but I don't see how he can have a negative effect.

vancityluongo
09-06-2008, 02:42 PM
Regarding Esposito... everything GBC is saying appears to be true. But I wouldn't hold the selection of Espo against the team. I can see why VCL selected him. You can claim his positive effect to be negligible, but I don't see how he can have a negative effect.

GBC did a great job arguing that...he had me convinced that the move made no sense! It may be a bit late now, but I remember why I picked Espo...and I've got quotes to back it up.

Phil didn't want to talk about his hockey accomplishments nearly as much as about the fun he had putting on the skates and the equipment and playing the game. Being a player meant belonging to the team, hanging out with the guys, chasing the girls, heading for the bar.

Phil is a natural storyteller. Little is sacred to him, and if the joke is on him, so much the better.

"As long as you're having fun, what else could a guy possibly want?"

This is why I drafted the guy. I needed a players coach, a guy to lighten things up in the room. Sure, he might've been a dreadful coach when it was his job to give the big motivating speech when his team was down a goal. Maybe he was terrible tactician. But for the role I drafted him for, I think he's fine.

Phil Esposito will take away some of the gloomy always working type attitude that'll likely be forced upon by Kilrea and McMillan. Basically, IMO, like seventies said, it can't be argued that Espo brings down my coaching, but I think I made a decent case that he could help it, and I still like my guys more than Humboldt's.

God Bless Canada
09-06-2008, 04:39 PM
GBC did a great job arguing that...he had me convinced that the move made no sense! It may be a bit late now, but I remember why I picked Espo...and I've got quotes to back it up.







This is why I drafted the guy. I needed a players coach, a guy to lighten things up in the room. Sure, he might've been a dreadful coach when it was his job to give the big motivating speech when his team was down a goal. Maybe he was terrible tactician. But for the role I drafted him for, I think he's fine.

Phil Esposito will take away some of the gloomy always working type attitude that'll likely be forced upon by Kilrea and McMillan. Basically, IMO, like seventies said, it can't be argued that Espo brings down my coaching, but I think I made a decent case that he could help it, and I still like my guys more than Humboldt's.
There are much better options out there for players' coaches than Espo. If you wanted one, go with Marc Crawford. Anyone would have been better than Espo. Okay, almost anyone. Espo is at the level of "Pom Pom" Mario Tremblay and Tony Granato for coaching ineptitude.

Espo's presence is a negative. You need good coaches at this level. Espo is not a good coach. Great leader. But there's a difference between being a great leader and a good coach at this level.

And your personel isn't at our level. We have better forwards, better coaching and (much) better goaltending, and while your defence might be better, our team defence is better.

vancityluongo
09-06-2008, 06:19 PM
There are much better options out there for players' coaches than Espo. If you wanted one, go with Marc Crawford. Anyone would have been better than Espo. Okay, almost anyone. Espo is at the level of "Pom Pom" Mario Tremblay and Tony Granato for coaching ineptitude.

Espo's presence is a negative. You need good coaches at this level. Espo is not a good coach. Great leader. But there's a difference between being a great leader and a good coach at this level.

And your personel isn't at our level. We have better forwards, better coaching and (much) better goaltending, and while your defence might be better, our team defence is better.

Espo is not a good head coach. In the role I've placed him in, he's decent. Not great. Marc Crawford is absolutely useless, and would've caused a massive disruption, since he'd be my last pick, and I didn't pick his husband Dan Cloutier. :D

As for player personal, that's debatable. I've made my arguments, you've made yours. Voting is due today, we'll see who our fellow GM's agree with. I'm going out for a while, I don't think I'll have time for some arguments before voting closes, so may the best team win. :handclap:

Transplanted Caper
09-08-2008, 08:25 PM
Apologies guys, to make a long story short, I'm working for a market research firm that's waist deep in the federal election and I'm right in the middle of it. I don't have the time to do write-ups during the week, so I'm just going to post results rather than call on others to do write-ups at this point, not because a good job wouldn't be done, but the GM's deserve to know whether they won or not.



The Humboldt Indians win a hard fought, close series in 7 Games

3-Stars

1. Billy Taylor
2. Kirk MacLean
3. Frantisek Tikal

vancityluongo
09-08-2008, 09:24 PM
Boo!

Seriously though, thanks for the good series GBC (again! :D) and congrats. I thought I might've had you this time, but I guess not. Next time, watch out! :)

seventieslord
09-09-2008, 01:23 AM
This series was the most fun to read, easily. Way to go, fellas!

God Bless Canada
09-09-2008, 05:49 PM
Thanks for a good series, kid. A little closer than I would have liked (or thought). It gets harder and harder every time. I really hope I don't have to face you again for a while - one day, you're going to win a lot of these things. And I don't want to be the one that "unleashes the monster" by being the first team you beat.

Evil Speaker
09-09-2008, 08:21 PM
Boo!
I thought I might've had you this time, but I guess not.

Well you should have. Your Giants had the best defense in the draft by healthy amount, that alone should've been enough to get you past the first round.