Swedish U18 WJC Roster Announced [Archive]

Predatore

03-17-2004, 07:09 AM

Very good. He is better than Salmonsson was last year. Quite a lot one could think since Salmonsson did not crack the U18 roster last year (which was a very, very weak one) .. and Bergfors easily made this year's (which is a very deep one). He scored more points that any player on the team this season despite being one year younger.
Points is obviously far from everything but he has performed very well in the U20 league and with the national team.

Kronblom

03-17-2004, 08:44 AM

The local newspaper in Södertälje had a big interview today with Bergfors and Wandell. Wandell was kind of surprised he that he was selected but Bergfors was deadsure on being selected. It seems like this kid has a lot of confidence, not only hockeyskill.

Tampa GM

03-17-2004, 09:10 AM

Dont www.lt.se publish articles online? All I could find was this

"ONSDAG2004-03-17
SSK-juniorer uttagna till VM
SSK:s Tom Wandell och Nicklas Bergfors är uttagna i 18-årslandslagets VM-trupp.

– Det blir en lång säsong, men det är bara kul.

Nu antar jag att jag får ta ledigt från skolan ett bra tag i april, säger Tom."

Fredrik

03-17-2004, 12:54 PM

Riddarn

03-17-2004, 01:02 PM

Good old pessimist-Fredrik ( ;) ) keeps our hopes down and frankly, I think he's right. I won't get my hopes up even though the team looks decent on paper. As long as they dont get relegated and/or humiliated I'm happy with about any result.

Predatore

03-17-2004, 01:09 PM

Some people were talking about medals for Sweden....

http://www.eliteprospects.com/news.php?news=384

Well, last year's medal hopes were pretty much shattered after both Robert Nilsson and Johan Fransson, the top two players on the team missed the tourney.
The fact that the 85's finished 5th last year is remarkable IMO and a great result.

As for the 86's chances I'd say that it can go either way. The top 5-6 teams are very close in terms of team depth and strength. I wouldn't consider the team a challenger for the Gold but hopefully a place in the semifinal.. and everything can happen there.

Kronblom

03-17-2004, 04:13 PM

An Ape called Yoko

03-17-2004, 04:18 PM

Is it the time of the year when everyone is forgetting that Sweden don´t produce good teams anymore? Last years team wasn't considered weak at all back then. Some people were talking about medals for Sweden....

http://www.eliteprospects.com/news.php?news=384

When you consider this team's results this season it is hard to believe they will be a serious contender for the gold. A top five position would be good.

BS. If you have have followed J-20 SuperElit and all the players you would have seen that this team is more talented. You can never know though if they are strong enough to take a medal, but i think there will be a lot of great players from this yeargroup. No question about it. Best since the 80:s.

Fredrik

03-18-2004, 11:53 AM

BS. If you have have followed J-20 SuperElit and all the players you would have seen that this team is more talented. You can never know though if they are strong enough to take a medal, but i think there will be a lot of great players from this yeargroup. No question about it. Best since the 80:s.

More talented than last year's team without Nilsson and Fransson perhaps but is it more talented than Russia or Czech Republic or the US or.. well, I think you get my point!

The fact is that this team have won only one out of ten games this season when they have played teams that will participate in Minsk. So I ask again: is the team really talented when they are losing all the time? You should know that this is a question that needs to be asked.

Let's face it. I want the team to be just as succesful as you but I won't let myself get carried away. If the team had only LOST one game of ten I would also be calling this team talented and dreaming of medals but the reality is different.

Predatore

03-18-2004, 12:56 PM

Not-a-GM

03-18-2004, 02:41 PM

More talented than last year's team without Nilsson and Fransson perhaps but is it more talented than Russia or Czech Republic or the US or.. well, I think you get my point!

The fact is that this team have won only one out of ten games this season when they have played teams that will participate in Minsk. So I ask again: is the team really talented when they are losing all the time? You should know that this is a question that needs to be asked.

Let's face it. I want the team to be just as succesful as you but I won't let myself get carried away. If the team had only LOST one game of ten I would also be calling this team talented and dreaming of medals but the reality is different.

Sweden have beeten USA and Slovakia... they have lost in OT against Russia once and had a good game against the russians in the last tournament.

A lot of games during the season have been really tight, but the swedes always seems to be the team that DON´T score when the game cries for a gamewinner.

And that doesn´t have anything to do with lack of talent. Sweden always plays good in the games, but they just can´t find the IMPORTANT goals.
That´s how it always is and that is something that I might think can have to do with all these sossehockeythinking up to the guys is 14-15 years old.

They don´t get the killerinstinkt everyone else get.

How ever I'm really looking forward to this tournamnt. When we for the first time with this year group will HAVE TO TOP THE TEAMS during the games it can be really good.

Fredrik

03-18-2004, 02:54 PM

Fredrik,
I don't understand how you can say they are not talented by comparing them to other nations. You should compare them to other Swedish age groups (how many are established senior players, how is the team depth etc).Canada for example have always been a better hockey nation than us, especially among juniors.
Heck, Japan may have a very talented team in the WC but Tre Kronor still most likely will outscore them. That doesn't mean the Japanese players aren't talented and not likely to improve etc .. compared to previous Japanese rosters.

Why? Talent must be judged by looking at the entire hockey world. It is not very interesting to note that the 86 team is more talented than the 85 team when both are worse than other nations teams. Why don't you check how many 86 players there are from each nation on the latest report from CSB. Take the top 50 and count the 40 or so among them that are 86 born.

At the end of the day the Swedish prospects are prospects to the NHL. To reach the NHL they WILL be compared to non-Swedes. The Swedish 86 team has clearly been worse than the opposition during the season. There could be good reasons for this but it should be a concern for any Swedish fan.

This year's U18 team would IMO pretty much outplay last year's. In fact if you you look at the U19 roster and the U18 roster in the last international tournaments.. more players from the U18 team were playing senior hockey than from the u19 team.

Like I said, both this year's and last year's team are worse than other countries teams.

Predatore

03-18-2004, 03:15 PM

Predatore

03-18-2004, 03:24 PM

Not-a-GM

03-18-2004, 03:47 PM

Fredrik:

The 86's is a talented year group no matter how they are compared to other contries.

If we should see things your way Nick Bergfors isn´t a huge talent because he is no better then Sid Crosby.

Teams/players can, and are, good/talented even if other teams/players are better.

Fredrik

03-18-2004, 04:24 PM

Fredrik
I see your point but by your logic Sweden will probably never have a talented team since it is not likely that we will ever have a team (on the paper, looking at the CSS rankings as you suggest.. or just in general) that is better than Canada (and probably Russia as well).

This also means that we never in the past have had a talented team?
Compare team Sweden with Forsberg to Canada's roster 93 (the best Swedish U20 team ever IMO and probably in your opinion to)

Canada
Paul Kariya
Martin Lapointe
Alexander Daigle
Adrian Aucoin
Chris Pronger
Chris Gratton
Manny Legace
Jason Smith
Mike Rathje
Dean McAmmond
Jeff Shantz
Rob Niedermayer

Sweden
Niclas Hävelid
Kenny Jönsson
Peter Forsberg
Mats Lindgren
Markus Näslund
Niklas Sundström
Andreas Johansson

Canada is a separate case as there are so many more hockey players there. I prefer to compare us to our neighbours in Europe. I am sure that the Russian team of 1993 was worse than the Swedish on paper too even if Yashin, Kovalev etc. are 1973 born. To find out the standard of the Swedish team compared with Russia, Finland etc. we could use eg. results at International tournaments or Central Scouting rankings. It is not a perfect way but better than just comparing different age groups within the country. If this means, like your numbers suggest, that Sweden is just as good as Finland and Czech republic I have no problems accepting it. But, the 86 team has lost almost all its games and that's no good. If it is not due to a lack of talent I would like to know what it is.

Speaking of Japan, I believe this Swedish team defeated Japan with 20-1, or 21-1 or something :)

I remember this game. It was fun and I was watching.. :joker:

Predatore

03-18-2004, 04:38 PM

But, the 86 team has lost almost all its games and that's no good. If it is not due to a lack of talent I would like to know what it is.

små marginaler? :)
The only thing we can go by is what the coaches/players have reported from the tournament/games. And from everything I have gathered it has been very close in basically all games and any team could how won.
Sounds pretty familiar, eh? :)
I think it is safe to say the Sweden does not have as many talented goal scorers as the other countries. Those players that are more egoistic, that prefer to take the shot instead of delivering the puck.
In tight games those are usually the ones that win games and unfortunately Sweden have never really had many snipers.

I wish we had more Kahnberg's, Näslund's...

Robertsson 4-ever

03-19-2004, 03:27 AM

I wish we had more Kahnberg's, Näslund's...

Hopefully Bergfors will be...

Not-a-GM

03-19-2004, 04:02 AM

Canada is a separate case as there are so many more hockey players there. I prefer to compare us to our neighbours in Europe. I am sure that the Russian team of 1993 was worse than the Swedish on paper too even if Yashin, Kovalev etc. are 1973 born. To find out the standard of the Swedish team compared with Russia, Finland etc. we could use eg. results at International tournaments or Central Scouting rankings. It is not a perfect way but better than just comparing different age groups within the country. If this means, like your numbers suggest, that Sweden is just as good as Finland and Czech republic I have no problems accepting it. But, the 86 team has lost almost all its games and that's no good. If it is not due to a lack of talent I would like to know what it is.

I remember this game. It was fun and I was watching.. :joker:

How the heck can you say that Canada is a separate case and that Sweden should compare with RUSSIA?!

How unfair isn´t that? Even if I don´t have any numbers on it Russia without any doubt have more hockeyplayers then Sweden.

Sweden is just as good as the czechs and the finns. Sweden is always the more playing team then CZE and FIN during the season, but they have a hard time getting the goals.
If hockey was about everything but scoring Sweden would cruch both Finland and Czech Republic. Hopefully it will show in scoring in Minsk.

Then again... is Bergfors not talanted since Crosby is better?

Riddarn

03-19-2004, 07:36 AM

Not-a-GM

03-19-2004, 12:30 PM

I think the number of licenced ice hockey players is pretty much the same in Sweden, Czech republic and Russia. But since both the Czechs and the Russians have elite schools for almost all of their hockey players, so you can't compare Sweden to those countries either.

I think CZE has 10% more players and Russia 20%, and that together with the elite schools with no sossehockeythinking get goalscorers of high class in every year group.

Riddarn

03-19-2004, 01:01 PM

I think CZE has 10% more players and Russia 20%, and that together with the elite schools with no sossehockeythinking get goalscorers of high class in every year group.

10, 20 percent more, doesn't really matter. The numbers are still roughly comparable, as is Finland. And I agree that it might get more goal scorers, but having kids picked out as early as that and train that hard... I'm not sure that's the way to go. What about having fun?

Sudden

03-19-2004, 03:45 PM

I wish we had more Kahnberg's, Näslund's...[/QUOTE]

There is one Näslund, Fredrik. He has the potential to be a new Markus Näslund or more like Mats Sundin whith same talent, size and righthand shot.
:handclap:

Fredrik

03-19-2004, 04:55 PM

How the heck can you say that Canada is a separate case and that Sweden should compare with RUSSIA?!

How unfair isn´t that? Even if I don´t have any numbers on it Russia without any doubt have more hockeyplayers then Sweden.

I read in Eishockeyalmanach '99 that Sweden had 63,000 registered players back in 97/98 while Russia had 27,000 Czech Republic 53,000 Finland 51,000 Slovakia 12,000 and Canada 519,000.

Sweden had 274 indoor rinks and Russia, Czech Republic and Finland together had 283!

Sweden is just as good as the czechs and the finns.

Apparently not the 86 team as they lose.

Sweden is always the more playing team then CZE and FIN during the season, but they have a hard time getting the goals.
If hockey was about everything but scoring Sweden would cruch both Finland and Czech Republic. Hopefully it will show in scoring in Minsk.

Well, scoring is quite important isn't it?

Then again... is Bergfors not talanted since Crosby is better?

Where did I say something like that? Quite frankly, that was stupid.

I know some people here were upset because of my pessimism but I am right and you are wrong. Let's face it. The Under-18s have been played 36 times and Sweden have won a medal 27 times( 10 gold, 8 silver, 9 bronze). This means that a bronze medal is BELOW average.

If you compare different age groups to each other wouldn't it fair to say that for a Swedish team to be considered good it must win a medal with this history?

It is only the last five years or so that first the US and then Canada have been around so it has become a little more difficult but on the other hand we could lower our expectations and say that if the team SHOULD win a medal they could be good.

I agree that there are talented players on the team like Hedman or Bergfors but I'm not convinced that the team is any good. Unless the team ends up third or higher I will stick to my opinion especially as we are in the easier group in Minsk.

Robertsson 4-ever

03-19-2004, 05:10 PM

Interesting discussion.

You can talk about how talented teams are, or how talentet players are. You can compare teams and different ages, but when it's coming to the end, it's about playing hockey, and to win, you just don't need talent. You need luck. You need chemistry.

Teams with less talented players can win a tournament as long as they play as a team and has the luck that is necessary. Sweden should have won vs Belarus in the olympics 2002 but didn't. Lack of talent? Definetly not. Did they play as a team? No, they didn't IMO. In WJC this winter the margins wasn't on Swedens side though they played pretty well of what I understand.

The best with hockey is that anything can happen. We can win. We can finish last.
And it doesn't even have to do with the talent of the team. That's my opinion.

Predatore

03-19-2004, 06:01 PM

R4-ever,
Well said :)

Not-a-GM

03-20-2004, 09:04 AM

Fredrik: Yeah, russia only have 27,000 players. Of course :-)

Fredrik

03-20-2004, 12:43 PM

Fredrik: Yeah, russia only have 27,000 players. Of course :-)

So why don't you tell us how many they really have?

After that you can describe the system of youth hockey in Russia.

Lastly, describe the league pyramid in Russia so that we really understand what an expert of Russian hockey you are.

Not-a-GM

03-20-2004, 01:37 PM

So why don't you tell us how many they really have?

After that you can describe the system of youth hockey in Russia.

Lastly, describe the league pyramid in Russia so that we really understand what an expert of Russian hockey you are.

What are you trying to prove? That since you know how the league pyramid is in Russia you are right about the number of players Russia have?

I can´t say that I really care about their leauge pyramid. I know what I need to now about their top league, that's enough for me.
I haven´t even stated me as an expert on russian hockey, but still I seem to know that they have a couple of more players than 27,000.
But it's not much more then 27,000, only 50,000 more, so you were pretty close.

An Ape called Yoko

03-20-2004, 01:55 PM

Fredrik

03-20-2004, 02:45 PM

And that was the end of your arguments. If you ever had any...

Read your private message and come back to me.

Not-a-GM

03-20-2004, 03:31 PM

Fredrik:

By the way isn´t it because Sweden is less talented they don´t win medals in U18-WC as they did in U18-EC.
The other teams have been better. Finland hardly took medals before. Now they take a lot of them.

Russia does always take medals and now when USA and Canada is in the tournament it's obviously harder to get to the medals.

To that you can put that Slovakia didn´t exist when Sweden took most of their medals and that Switzerland since 10 years back can deliver some good year groups.

Since Slovakia, Sweden, Finland, Russia, Czech Republic, USA and Canada can take medals every year, more or less, it's no hard tp calculate that four good teams will be without medal every year.

It's not hard for oracles like us here to see why Sweden has a harder time getting medals. But for you it seems pretty easy. Just say Sweden sucks and has no prospects, end of story.

Predatore

03-20-2004, 03:42 PM

Registered players
1) Canada: 574 125
2) USA: 485 017
3) Russia: 77 202
4) Czech Rep: 72 075
5) Sweden: 65 561
6) Finland: 52 597
7) Switzerland: 25 989
8) Germany: 25 934

Registered seniors
1) Czech Rep: 36 962
2) USA: 76 948
3) Canada: 24 956
4) Russia: 24 794
5) Sweden: 18 251
6) Japan: 16 585
7) Finland: 12 946
8) Switzerland: 9 878

Registered juniors
1) Canada: 489 022
2) USA: 365 777
3) Russia: 52 171
4) Sweden: 45 168
5) Finland: 39 651
6) Czech Rep: 34 101
7) Germany: 16 499
8) Switzerland: 15 338

An Ape called Yoko

03-20-2004, 03:46 PM

Read your private message and come back to me.

I have. This is what I have to say:
1. I will turn 24 this year.
2. I don´t care about previous medals. You can´t compare then with now. Hockey has grown consideribly. More countries, more players.
3. I´m thinking you have no arguments since you are basing it on only results. Im basing my opinion on talentdepth. No matter how this team preforms i U-18 WC. There WILL be a lot of SEL players and even some NHL:ers to come from this crop born 86.

Fredrik

03-20-2004, 04:13 PM

I have. This is what I have to say:
1. I will turn 24 this year.

Start behaving like an adult then. I don't share your opinion about this team. Is that such a big deal? ALL realistic hockey people in Sweden agree we have a problem with our junior program. You know it too so why are you so upset when I say I don't think the team is as good as you think?

2. I don´t care about previous medals. You can´t compare then with now. Hockey has grown consideribly. More countries, more players.

I thought the way to know if a team is good is to compare it to previous age groups. ;)
This team is clearly worse. I'm not sure you know it but Sweden plays the same teams almost all the time. The very teams we played 10 years ago...

I don't know why I would need to repeat it but here goes:

Sweden have finished first or second in half of the tournaments. I already said that because of Canada and US we could lower our expectations a bit and say that a team should win a medal to be considered good. Like I said, bronze is BELOW average.

3. I´m thinking you have no arguments since you are basing it on only results. Im basing my opinion on talentdepth. No matter how this team preforms i U-18 WC. There WILL be a lot of SEL players and even some NHL:ers to come from this crop born 86.

You are basing your opinion on wishful thinking. That's the difference between you and me. How many SEL players?

Predatore

03-20-2004, 04:19 PM

Perhaps some of you may find this interesting.

Down low you'll find the Swedish NHLers/AHLers that have come from the WJC-teams since 1994.
I'm not trying to prove anything really but IMO it is obvious that Sweden has produced great players even the years when we have finished 5th, 6th etc..
No need to be too fixed about the final standings (although it is definitely positive, and encouraging if we win medals.. but in the end it all comes down to produce talented hockey player.. as the wise Robertsson-4ever stated before ;) )

1994, Silver
Anders Eriksson
Kenny Jönsson
Mattias Timander
Dick Tärnström
Mattias Öhlund
Mats Lindgren
Fredrik Modin
Niklas Sundström

1995, Bronze
Anders Eriksson
Daniel Tjärnqvist
Dick Tärnström
Mattias Öhlund
Per-Johan Axelsson
Niklas Sundström

1996, Silver
Mattias Öhlund
Kim Johnsson
Daniel Tjärnqvist
Nils Ekman
Marcus Nilsson
Samuel Påhlsson

1997, 8th place (okay, not much for team depth here :D )
Johan Holmqvist
Josef Boumedienne
Kristian Huselius
Marcus Nilson

1998, 6th place
Johan Holmqvist
Josef Boumedienne
Pierre Hedin
Henrik Tallinder
Michael Holmqvist
Kristian Huselius
Marcus Nilson
Henrik Sedin
Daniel Sedin

1999, 4th place
Christian Bäckman
Henrik Tallinder
Christian Berglund
Daniel Sedin
Henrik Sedin
Mathias Tjärnqvist
Mattias Weinhandl
Jimmie Ölvestad

2000, 5th place
Christian Bäckman
Niklas Kronwall
Christian Berglund
Tony Mårtensson
Henrik Sedin
Daniel Sedin
Rickard Wallin
Henrik Zetterberg
Jimmie Ölvestad

An Ape called Yoko

03-20-2004, 04:37 PM

Jeezh. Why so sensitive?

We don´t have to go through this again. Its not a big deal, the only one making it a big deal is you. Im aware of the problems we have in juniorhockey. But I still think the 86:s are a talented bunch of players. Why? Because im basing my opinion on my own scouting.
And the most important thing to me is depth. And we have a really nice depth here, with lots of players with potential. Some players haven´t been selected to play U-18 WC. If there´s a good depth, its most likely that we will see some great players in future. How Sweden do in U-18 WC is secondary to me. Its not a validation that we suck if we preform bad. Some players take time into developing into great players. Take a look at Kahnberg for example, Alfredsson etc etc. What matters to me is that we are producing talents. And in my opinion we are really starting to that again.

I can´t say how many will be SEL-players, but pretty many.

Robertsson 4-ever

03-21-2004, 04:36 AM

3. I´m thinking you have no arguments since you are basing it on only results. Im basing my opinion on talentdepth. No matter how this team preforms i U-18 WC. There WILL be a lot of SEL players and even some NHL:ers to come from this crop born 86.

And thats what is important. Any team can fail, but the players are still talented.

Robertsson 4-ever

03-21-2004, 04:40 AM

Not-a-GM

03-21-2004, 12:27 PM

Just a little question. Anyone know what happened with the players born 1977. I only know one player who have reached the NHL, Samuel Påhlsson, was so little good players this year? Every other yeargroup have had a bunch of NHL players, but not that year. Strange.

The 77-guys understood that after their flop in WJC-97 that they wheren´t going to be anything.
"We can´t be talented when we didn´t got any medals. Ask Fredrik the Brynäser" and then they stopped develope.

Fredrik

03-21-2004, 01:54 PM

The 77-guys understood that after their flop in WJC-97 that they wheren´t going to be anything.
"We can´t be talented when we didn´t got any medals. Ask Fredrik the Brynäser" and then they stopped develope.

Try to come up with a better argument instead. I have never said anything like that and you know it. You deliberatly spin what I have written. :shakehead

Why is the 86 team talented as you seem to think?

How do you determine who is a talented player? I haven't seen any arguments for it from anyone. Just silly comments about the team being talented with good depth. Well, tell me how you know this. :dunno:

EDIT: removed personal attack, keep it clean.

Not-a-GM

03-21-2004, 04:29 PM

Try to come up with a better argument instead. I have never said anything like that and you know it. You deliberatly spin what I have written. :shakehead

Why is the 86 team talented as you seem to think?

How do you determine who is a talented player? I haven't seen any arguments for it from anyone. Just silly comments about the team being talented with good depth. Well, tell me how you know this. :dunno:

If you see a player you know if he is talented or not. If you have 22 players with talent, problably you can say that a team is talented.

Fredrik

03-21-2004, 05:22 PM

If you see a player you know if he is talented or not. If you have 22 players with talent, problably you can say that a team is talented.

You just don't get it, do you? What it is that makes a player talented? What's the difference between the talented players and the rest? It is not okay to say that players or a team are talented when you don't have any arguments to support your statement with.

I have suggested two ways of determining if a team is talented. One was to check the team's results. I have been told that results are not so important which I will remember the next time we win something. :shakehead

The other way I wrote was to check what the NHL-scouts say.

Do you have any other way of knowing if a team is talented?

BTW,

the 77 team wasn't talented as their bad result at the Under18 championships proved where they ended up only third. This wasn't underperforming as their highest drafted player was Henrik Rehnberg at no. 96. Per-Anton Lundström was drafted at no. 62 the year after.

Riddarn

03-21-2004, 06:20 PM

Kind of interesting though, what is talent? Is Niklas Anger more talented than Jonathan Hedström? Or is it the other way around, and why?

czechhockeyfan

03-25-2004, 01:26 AM

Further Fredrik..

You suggested taking a look at the CSS rankings so I did.
Here are the players listed by country among the top 60 prospects

RUSSIA: 20
CZECH REPUBLIC: 13
SWEDEN: 12
FINLAND: 7
SLOVAKIA 3

(these are listed by league, I'm pretty sure some Slovakian players are playing their hockey in the Czech league so Sweden could very well be no.2 on the list)

EDIT:
--------
Taking only the ones born 1986 we get the following result
Russia 18
Czech Rep 10
Sweden 9
Finland 6
Slovakia 2

(I did not list Swiss, German players) :rolly:

No one Slovakian prospect playing in Czech contest among top 60.
In addition three Czechs(two 86 born) and two Slovakian among top prospects in North America.

It´s interesting. I saw Swedish 85 team last team at the tourney in Prague and they looked very well(won the tournament) . This year I saw Swedish 86 team at World Cup in August and I was not impressed.
Oscar Hedman should have made great improvement since the the tourney otherwise he is the most overrated prospect.

An Ape called Yoko

03-25-2004, 02:28 AM

No one Slovakian prospect playing in Czech contest among top 60.
In addition three Czechs(two 86 born) and two Slovakian among top prospects in North America.

It´s interesting. I saw Swedish 85 team last team at the tourney in Prague and they looked very well(won the tournament) . This year I saw Swedish 86 team at World Cup in August and I was not impressed.
Oscar Hedman should have made great improvement since the the tourney otherwise he is the most overrated prospect.

Well, thats exactly whats happened during the season. He has taken a major step.