New European League?

The CHL won't be continued (http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=749079) it seems. As stated in that thread, there is still interest in a European competition, even among those opposing the latest IIHF plans for the CHL. Now Bild (http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/mehr-sport/eishockey/2010/03/28/sensationsplan/eisbaeren-berlin-adler-mannheim-raus-aus-del.html) (not the most reliable source, though) reports the follwoing:
Beginning in 2012 30 to 35 clubs will form a European league. 18 clubs signed a declaration of intend, among them Berlin and Mannheim, five Swedish clubs, five Finnish clubs, Oslo, Zurich, Prague and Salzburg. Furthermore the top clubs in Cologne, Frankfurt, Hamburg and Duesseldorf will be invited.
According to Bild, Hakan Loob is the initiator and has already spend 3mio€ on the project.
In the summers 2010 and 2011 tournaments with the initial 18 teams will take place.

some more news about it (http://www.handelsblatt.com/magazin/sonstiges/eishockey-international-europaeische-eishockey-top-klubs-planen-neue-liga;2553426)

- first tournament starts august 11th
- two groups, 9 teams each
- both groups top four will meet in a final tournament in Salzburg

- Marcel Kuhl, manager Mannheim:
"European hockey structures are outdated. We have to change something." "Introducing a European league makes sense, because it ensures interesting matches on national and finally on international level"

- Daniel Goldstein, press spokesman Berlin:
"We will participate in the preseason tournaments, and that's all."
(excuse my poor translations)

- (Link (http://hockeyfans.ch/news_portal/news.php?id=26611&month=3&year=10&modus=)) Peter Zahner (ZSC Lions) confirms his teams participation in the preseason tournaments. About the league: "I don't comment rumours. Sure, there were meetings and it may look different in a year."

To be honest, it doesn't sound all that bad. I totally agree with Marcus Kuhl, there have to be some major changes in European hockey. To speak for Germany, the DEL is struggling anyway. So why not play a European championship?

Peter John Lee (manager Berlin) said in an interview (http://www.spox.com/de/sport/eishockey/1003/Artikel/peter-john-lee-eisbaeren-berlin-big-bang-hakan-loob-faerjestads-bk.html) today (after that BILD-article), that there are no plans for the Eisbären to leave the DEL.
He also said that he had never heard of "Big Bang" before and that they didn't sign anything.
But it is true that they are planning a pre-season tournament.

invitational leagues and tournaments are much less popular in Europe than those where you have to qualify for because of the philosophical issues behind those two approaches that revolve around this one question: Why is team A getting picked out for that and why not team B?

I believe the Big Bank league would fail if they are not able to answer this question. The Champions Hockey League was popular among fans because you had to qualify for it through your domestic league.

(Link (http://www.hockeyweb.de/eishockey/artikel.php?a=50767)) The tournament will be organized and financed by the participating clubs. The best clubs will receive prize money.
It is a follow-up to the Nordic Trophy and the Red Bull Salute tournamnet. The linked article also shows the logo of the European Trophy.

Here's a list of all clubs according to Aftonbladet (http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/hockeybladet/internationellt/article6864162.ab):
Sverige:
Frölunda
HV71
Linköping
Färjestad
Djurgården
Malmö

Finland:
Kärpät
Jokerit
TPS Åbo
IFK Helsingfors
Tappara

Norge:
Vålerenga

Österrike:
Salzburg

Tyskland:
Adler Mannheim
Eisbären Berlin

Tjeckien:
Sparta Prag

Schweiz:
Zürich
Bern

Edit:
Here (http://www.eishockeynews.de/nachricht.html?nachricht_id=10866) are the divisions:
Capital Division: Adler Mannheim, Eisbären Berlin, Djurgardens IF Stockholm, Färjestads BK, Linköpings HC (alle Schweden), IFK Helsinki, Jokerit Helsinki (beide Finnland), HC Sparta Prag (Tschechien), Valerenga IF Oslo (Norwegen);
Central Division: SC Bern, ZSC Lions (beide Schweiz), Frölunda Göteborg, HV 71 Jönköping, Malmö Redhawks (alle Schweden), EC Red Bull Salzburg (Österreich), Kärpät Oulu, Tappara Tampere, TPS Turke (alle Finnland).

Salzburg will partake at the finals in any case as it will take place at their arena.


Edit 2:
And here is the website (http://www.europeantrophy.com/).

I salute this initiative ... Europe needs something above the national levels.

But where are the Russian clubs ??

A European championship without Russian club is a sad championship.

Then why are the clubs together with other clubs from the same country ?

All in all great stuff :handclap:

I salute this initiative ... Europe needs something above the national levels.

But where are the Russian clubs ??

A European championship without Russian club is a sad championship.

Then why are the clubs together with other clubs from the same country ?

All in all great stuff :handclap:


So far this is only a preseason tournament. But if they want to turn this into a league the participating clubs need to part from their national league - at least that is the set-up of the league supposed to start in 2012 .

The national league of the russian clubs is the KHL. I can't see any of those clubs breaking away from the KHL.

Leaving out the russian clubs is probably the key to success.

wow, this came from nowhere! pretty interesting to see what you guys think about it, for me it looks like a great concept so far.

also the Salute will get better, great to see how it moved up to one of Europes best hockey tourneys.
the only bad thing for me is that the little chance to see an NHL team in Salzburg again is now about 0%

Seems interesting, I would want stronger teams though to be more fun

nice move by Loob ditched Medvedev like a little b....ch. A pan-European league under Russia's tutelage? would have never happened anyhow.

Having the Final in Salzburg seems weird. Their arena is tiny.

Having the Final in Salzburg seems weird. Their arena is tiny.
Well, the finals are this years Red Bulls Salute. This was an invitation tournament before and as the name suggests one with marketing intentions. Salzburg is seen by some as grown too big for the Austrian league and at this event, the sponsor allows the fans to see their team competing with other top teams. That may explain why it's there. And because hockey fans mostly don't travel as much to away games and their interest is often limited to their team, the size of the arena may be just right when non-Salzburg teams meet.

There have been plans for a new arena in Salzburg for quite some time. I guess it depends on formation of a successful European league or the team joining DEL after all (tried but failed so far).

Well, the finals are this years Red Bulls Salute. This was an invitation tournament before and as the name suggests one with marketing intentions. Salzburg is seen by some as grown too big for the Austrian league and at this event, the sponsor allows the fans to see their team competing with other top teams. That may explain why it's there. And because hockey fans mostly don't travel as much to away games and their interest is often limited to their team, the size of the arena may be just right when non-Salzburg teams meet.

There have been plans for a new arena in Salzburg for quite some time. I guess it depends on formation of a successful European league or the team joining DEL after all (tried but failed so far).

it failed cause of politics...long story. but the truth is that we don`t need a bigger arena here. it`s sold out in the play-offs and when good teams visit and there are pretty much fans there for the "usual" games but it was a shame how empty the arena was at the last Salute when Salzburg didn`t play. the fans here care for the championship, not so much for international top-hockey so I`m wondering too if this tourneys final will be in Sbg the next years too

Mannheim's CEO Daniel Hopp rejected speculations about this tournament replacing national competitions from the year 2012 on.

Source: yesterday's edition of the German hockey magazine "Eishockey News"

Having the Final in Salzburg seems weird. Their arena is tiny.

I know

Peter John-Lee and Ralph Krueger about the tournament and its possible future:
Tournament a 'baby step' for European hockey
European Trophy tournament could galvanize a continent-wide league

COLOGNE, Germany — Raise your hand if you've ever heard of the European Trophy hockey tournament.
Thought so, but you might want to take note of it.
[...]
"Our fans love the German [league] championship and they'd love to see Swedish teams and Swiss teams, and Sweden wants the same thing, so does Switzerland. They do not want to get away from their league," said Lee. "But they want to see other club teams."
[...]
Lee said while there is interest in the NHL, surveys have shown that the loyalty lies in Europe with club teams.
"There is a much higher fanatic hockey base in Europe than there is in North America,'' he said. "Hockey is No. 1 in Canada but there are 33 million people. In the United States, it is way down the list. We have 300 million people."
[...]
"This will build rivalries," said Ralph Krueger, a Canadian who is the former Swiss national team coach. "If these clubs build and grow, who knows what they can become."
[...]
"It is a thing that has to evolve. I think you will see the clubs grow and you will see them playing a bigger role than their federations … there is a lot of potential," said Krueger.

Officials are playing it safe and will gauge interest before making a decision on what their next step will be.

"It is not about NHL expansion," added Lee. "It is about growing the clubs here so that they join the NHL [as part of European expansion if and when it comes] or they form their own league. You can have North America and Europe and they will not play until the end.
"Today we can't think about [a pan-European league] but maybe in a few years we can."

cbc.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2010/05/16/sp-european-trophy.html)

You can call me narrow-minded, but how is a NHL-expansion to Europe supposed to work? Even in several years I can not imagine this. Than I would rather prefer a seperate pan-European league. But I don't see European teams leaving their domestic league in order to play in the NHL.

Peter John-Lee and Ralph Krueger about the tournament and its possible future:

solution: have national divisions instead of leagues, and keep divisional play high, like MLB. make winning a 'pennant' (national title) still relevant, while integrating the leagues together

playoffs would have the best of these national divisions pitted against one another, for a euro championship

Peter John-Lee and Ralph Krueger about the tournament and its possible future:

Hockey is big in Europe and recent surveys have shown that hockey is the No. 2 sport in most countries, behind soccer. According to Lee, Europe, with 300 million people, is basically an untapped market.

Very interesting... I had always thought stuff like Handball or F1 or WRC are like no. 2 or 3 behind European Football.

Hockey is big in Europe and recent surveys have shown that hockey is the No. 2 sport in most countries, behind soccer. According to Lee, Europe, with 300 million people, is basically an untapped market. Very interesting... I had always thought stuff like Handball or F1 or WRC are like no. 2 or 3 behind European Football.
I wonder what survey the author is referring to here. In Germany, team handball, basketball and icehockey are contenders for a distant second spot behind soccer in team sports. It's a matter of what indicators you use to determine their order. More in this thread (http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=774210).
If you are looking for an order of popularity of sports in general, I highly doubt that statement.

As for an NHL involvement, I think it would be done with an gentrified Victoria Cup, contested by the past seasons top NHL and Euro league teams. It wouldn't be called Victoria Cup, though, as that is a IIHF trademark and the fundamental idea of the European Trophy clubs is self administration, it seems. What the Victoria cup has shown is, that such a competition is accepted without much whining and reglementaion needs of balancing the teams. So basically, there wouldn't be any need to think about draft systems and generating equal money as the NHL teams, scheduling games with those in-season and so on - it'd be just a pre-season tournament by teams from otherwise seperated leagues but presented in a more meaningful way.

Very interesting... I had always thought stuff like Handball or F1 or WRC are like no. 2 or 3 behind European Football.

In Germany, the DEL officials like to quote the attendance figures and call hockey Germany's favourite indoor sport. But that doesn't change the fact that a slightly higher attendance compared to Handball doesn't compensate for a relative lack of wide-spread interest in hockey.

I`m all for a pan-european tourney series / league. Especially in Germany, where the DEL has lost touch (or never had it for that matter) with the rest of Europe, the clubs would profit from stronger competition. That can only be good for German hockey.

The biggest problem i see is that you won`t get many German hockey fans to travel back and forth across Europe to support their team in several away games each week. Too expensive and time consuming. That should even be true for playoff games between let`s say a Swedish and Swiss, dare i say German team. I`m sure same goes for pretty much every other European country.

So it will be hard for many teams to fill the stadiums only on home fans. And let`s face it - most DEL clubs are complaining about weak visitor numbers today already, even without these long distances.

In Germany, the DEL officials like to quote the attendance figures and call hockey Germany's favourite indoor sport. But that doesn't change the fact that a slightly higher attendance compared to Handball doesn't compensate for a relative lack of wide-spread interest in hockey.

Right. And imo the lack of German interest in Hockey is a direct consequence of the fact that the DEL prefers to take some "quick" money by showin DEL games only on PayTV over an investment in the future by giving it a public showcase in FreeTV. PayTV might pay more a year, but a strong representation of German hockey in the public would create more interest in the sport over time, bring more stadium visits and kids to play hockey. Hell, i`m not even talking about showing complete live games, a "Sportschau"-like format with extensive Highlight clips would do for starters. It can`t be that hard, can it?

I don`t say thats the only problem there is, there are many, many more bu it`s an important factor for sure.

Let`s hope the good performance in this year`s World Cup really changes something.

I'm against this one. You don't need something over national championships. Like mentioned travel times would be so time consuming that not many would attend these games. Also where's the rivalry? I doubt this thing has a long - if any - future at all.

So better focus on national tournaments.

Ice hockey is the 2nd most popular sport in europe with it being the most popular sport in Switzerland, Latvia, Kazakstan, Czech Republic, Sweden, Finland, Belarus and Russia and I would say its the 2nd most popular sport in Germany, Austria and Slovakia and in other countries it has become quite a popular sport like in Croatia, Slovenia, Norway and Denmark. So overall I would say that Ice Hockey by quite some distance is the 2nd most popular sport in europe:)

Ice hockey is the 2nd most popular sport in europe with it being the most popular sport in Switzerland, Latvia, Kazakstan, Czech Republic, Sweden, Finland, Belarus and Russia and I would say its the 2nd most popular sport in Germany, Austria and Slovakia and in other countries it has become quite a popular sport like in Croatia, Slovenia, Norway and Denmark. So overall I would say that Ice Hockey by quite some distance is the 2nd most popular sport in europe:)

As we discussed above, I think you are wrong with this one. I agree with you regarding most of the other countries.

hockey is not #1 sport in Russia. Not even close to football.

[QUOTE=frank16;25962094]Ice hockey is the 2nd most popular sport in europe with it being the most popular sport in Switzerland, Latvia, Kazakstan, Czech Republic, Sweden, Finland, Belarus and Russia

well, in switzerland is soccer the most popular sport :cry: 2. ice hockey.
i think, it's really realistic, that hockey is after soccer the most popular sport in europe. ice hockey is in the top 5 of the most europe countries ... which form of sport have the same ranking?

and about this pre-tournament, it's a good idea, but they have to change it after one or two years. they shouldn't have so many swedish and finish teams but rather the same number of each country, or else the tounament should take place in Scandinavia, then the most games would be sold out ;)

Ok so in some of the countries I said it actually isnt the biggest sport but there are quite a few countries where it is actually the number 1 sport. The Nearest competetor to ice hockey for that number 2 spot is basketball which in my opininion is absolutely no where near as big as ice hockey in europe, there isn't one country in europe where it is the number 1 sport

Ok so in some of the countries I said it actually isnt the biggest sport but there are quite a few countries where it is actually the number 1 sport. The Nearest competetor to ice hockey for that number 2 spot is basketball which in my opininion is absolutely no where near as big as ice hockey in europe, there isn't one country in europe where it is the number 1 sport
Let's have a look at the number of organized players.
Here (http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/the-iihf/survey-of-players.html) you can see the IIHF numbers.
Just some of them from countries with (at least some) affinity for hockey:

Finnland: 61,684 (population: 5,250,275)
Sweden: 60,374 (9,059,651)
Slovakia: 8,671 (5,463,046)
Czech Republic: 97,102 (10,211,904)
Russia: 84,720 (140,041,247)
Switzerland : 24,705 (7,604,467)
Germany: 28,967 (82,329,758)

total number of registered hockey players in those countries: 366,223

number of registered team handball players in Germany alone: 847,000

Case closed if you use participants numbers for your comparison.

And just to put this into perspective, that's how many members the DFB (organized soccer in Germany) has about: 6,700,000

Let's have a look at the number of organized players.
Here (http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/the-iihf/survey-of-players.html) you can see the IIHF numbers.
Just some of them from countries with (at least some) affinity for hockey:

Finnland: 61,684 (population: 5,250,275)
Sweden: 60,374 (9,059,651)
Slovakia: 8,671 (5,463,046)
Czech Republic: 97,102 (10,211,904)
Russia: 84,720 (140,041,247)
Switzerland : 24,705 (7,604,467)
Germany: 28,967 (82,329,758)

total number of registered hockey players in those countries: 366,223

number of registered team handball players in Germany alone: 847,000

Case closed if you use participants numbers for your comparison.

And just to put this into perspective, that's how many members the DFB (organized soccer in Germany) has about: 6,700,000


I'm not comparing player wise because Hockey will lose everytime to ever other sport because hockey is alot harder to participate in due to a smaller amount of rinks and it being very expensive to play. Anyway I'm talking popularity as in crowds and media attention e.t.c and I dont think handball is as popular as basketball or hockey in europe

To end this conversation about which is bigger basketball or Ice Hockey i'm just simply going to go through every country in europe(I know bit sad) and say which one is bigger based on crowds and other sources of information(I dont know everyone so a couple will be guesses)

Albania= B
Austria= IH
Belarus= IH
Belgium= B
Bosnia & Herzegovina=B
Bulgaria= IH
Croatia= B
Czech Republic= IH
Denmark= IH
Estonia= Neither
Finland= IH
France= B
Georgia= B
Germany= IH
Greece= B
Hungary= IH
Iceland= Neither
Ireland= IH
Italy= B
Latvia= IH
Lithuania= B
Malta= Neither
Moldova= Neither
Montenegro= B
The Netherlands= IH
Norway= IH
Poland= Neither
Portugal= B
Romania= B
Russia= IH
Serbia= B
Slovakia= IH
Slovenia= Neither
Spain= B
Sweden= IH
Switzerland= IH
Ukraine= IH
United Kingdom= IH

Basketball= 14
Ice Hockey= 18
Neither= 6

Average attendances(top 9):

Ice Hockey:

1.Sweden -Elitserien: 6190
2.Switzerland - National League A: 6181
3.Deutschland - Deutsche Eishockey Liga : 5807
4.Russia - Kontinental Hockey League: 5474
5.Finnland - SM-liiga : 5240
6.Czech Republic - Extraliga: 4951
7.Austria - EBEL: 3301
8.Slovakia - Extraliga: 2364
9.UK - Elite Ice Hockey League: 2252


Basketball:

ACB (Spain): 6387.00
Lega (Italy): 3740
ProA (France): 3503
Bundesliga (Germany): 3469
LEB Gold (Spain): 2944
Superleague (Russia): 2276
Baltic Elite Division: 2238
A1 (Greece): 1228
Adriatic League(Bosnia,Slovenia,Croatia,Serbia): 1179
Finland: 865.67

After looking at all this information I think it is pretty obvious that Ice Hockey IS the 2nd biggest sport in Europe

Some points to consider:

You obviously base your idea of "2nd biggest sport in Europe" on in how many countries it is 1st or 2nd. I don't think that's a good measurement. Also, the indicators aren't clear.

It's great that there is a lot of attention for hockey in Finland and Sweden, but after all, NRW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Rhine-Westphalia) alone has more inhabitants than those countries combined and Germany has more than three times as much inhabitants as the Nordic Countries.

You focus on the average numbers for the top leagues for your comperison and overlook the diversification of clubs and interest in them. For example, there are a few thousand more team handball clubs in Germany than icehockey clubs, so one could expect the crowd to be more widespread; especially since all hockey-, bball- and hball- clubs are a very regional thing. Though the top league basketball and team handball clubs don't reach DEL attendance numbers, they come closer to fill their (mosty smaller) arenas.

As for the media in Germany: There is only one icehockey periodical, while there are a few for basketball and team handball. Icehockey is only on pay-tv (which is way less popular than in other countries), while bball and hball are on free-tv.

And what about rugby and cricket in France and UK? And other non-team-sports?

My comparisons were just basketball vs Ice Hockey and not other sports because those are the only 2 sports in my mind which are competing for that 2nd spot. Rugby is very popular in France and England, cricket is popular in england but is non-existent in France. You can't really include other sports like tennis and golf in this discussion because they are international sports. Ice Hockey is the 2nd most popular sport in europe and I have proved it, if you believe that their is another sport bigger than Ice Hockey (except football) prove it to me

[...]basketball vs Ice Hockey [...] are the only 2 sports in my mind which are competing for that 2nd spot.
Then it might be time for you to broaden your mind.
You can't really include other sports like tennis and golf in this discussion because they are international sports.
What?
Ice Hockey is the 2nd most popular sport in europe and I have proved it, if you believe that their is another sport bigger than Ice Hockey (except football) prove it to me
Where is the proof you talk of? That list you compiled of your subjective appraisal?

There are quite a few indicators one could use to compare the popularity of sports. You brought in the top level leagues average attendances and I already wrote my criticism about them.
Another point may be tv audience. I don't claim to know much about the situation in other countries, but I can give you some figures from Germany - as stated above a not so small portion of Europes population lives here.

The most watched sport broadcasts (http://sportfive.de/index.php?id=540&L=1) in Germany (average) in 2009.
From that list and without soccer broadcasts (total rank/sport/average viewers in million):

2 boxing 11,18
3 boxing 10,86
4 boxing 10,34
--------------------------- total population Chech Republic, Sweden
11 team handball 8,40
12 team handball 8,32
--------------------------- total population Switzerland
24 boxing 7,32
26 high jump 7,21
27 Formula One 7,16
32 running 6,92
34 running 6,83
36 team handball 6,64
38 ski jump 6,44
39 running 6,43
41 ski jump 6,38
42 Formula One 6,34
43 Formula One 6,33
46 Formula One 6,27

... (sure a few others)
...
------------------------------ total population Finland, Slovakia

This year WHC opener was watched by 1,15 mil. - a number, which was seen as extraordinary. With Germanys progress, the media created a hype which I have never seen before for icehockey around here that drew more and more non hockey fans to the tv, finalizing with 2,49 mil. in the semifinals match against Russia. So, the WHC was on free tv, there were media buzz and rarely seen before national team success and that is the number it reached.

This got pretty much OT - I guess there are already other threads to further discuss this.

The biggest T.V show in the UK and probably in the history of the UK averages 10million viewers so alot of people must watch t.v in germany. Look I cant comment about Germany because I don't live there and you do so you obviously know more about it than me, all I know is that the DEL has a lot higher average attendance than any other indoor league in Germany. I have alot of friends around europe and all I hear is about how big ice hockey is there and that is how I have made up my mind, I have also looked at the attendances and it is a fact that Ice Hockey as a whole has the best attendances on average for an indoor sport in europe. I also know people involved in sport around europe, some in football, rugby, golf, basketball and Ice Hockey and after discussing with them their sports and just general discussions it has become clear to me that Ice Hockey is the 2nd biggest sport in europe. That is my opinion and you are completely entitled to yours

Ok so in some of the countries I said it actually isnt the biggest sport but there are quite a few countries where it is actually the number 1 sport.
There are actually very few countries. In fact it's doubtful there is even one, outside Finland.

there isn't one country in europe where it is the number 1 sport
Lithuania.

Your reasoning is flawed anyway. Just because ice hockey is number one in three countries and basketball is not, it does not follow that ice hockey is a bigger sport, especially considering how insignificant those 3 countries are. I mean basketball might not be the number one sport in Spain but I'm pretty sure the number of bball fans in Spain dwarfs the number of hockey fans in Finland and Latvia and Belarus combined.


Average attendances(top 9):
Ice Hockey:
7.Austria - EBEL: 3301
8.Slovakia - Extraliga: 2364
9.UK - Elite Ice Hockey League: 2252

So ice hockey is not as popular in Slovakia as it is in Austria, and only marginally bigger than in the UK? :laugh:

Some points to consider:

You obviously base your idea of "2nd biggest sport in Europe" on in how many countries it is 1st or 2nd. I don't think that's a good measurement. Also, the indicators aren't clear.
It is a terrible measurement. In most of the "IH countries", IH is only marginally bigger than BB, which still gets decent crowds and media attention.

Certainly the reverse is not true. In half of Europe there's hardly any hockey being played at all.

Just look at the attendance figures: Finland, a hockey country if there ever was one, still ranks 10th in Europe in terms of attendance for its basketball league. Conversely, how many fans in Greece would turn up for an ice hockey game?



And what about rugby and cricket in France and UK?
As big as they are in these countries, they're non existent anywhere else.

Look guys I think Ice Hockey is the second biggest sport in europe and so many people who I talk to agree with me, in my mind basketball is definatly not as popular as ice hockey. This is my opinion and as I said before you are all entitled to yours. If you are going to try and say that a sport is bigger than Ice Hockey in europe(except football) then prove it:):)

This seems to be a lost cause, since you seem to value opinions higher than facts and reasoning.

Here are some more numbers for tv broadcasts.
The IIHF celebrated estimated 650 mil. worldwide viewers for this years icehockey Word Championship (beforehand! Cumulated figures of the actual numbers were not given, indicating those were lower than they expected). This is for 56 matches.
This years team handball European Championship was cumulated watched by over one billion (http://www.sportpresseportal.de/news/540) viewers - fewer than the last one, which reached 1,2 billion. That is for 47 matches.

This seems to be a lost cause, since you seem to value opinions higher than facts and reasoning.

Here are some more numbers for tv broadcasts.
The IIHF celebrated estimated 650 mil. worldwide viewers for this years icehockey Word Championship (beforehand! Cumulated figures of the actual numbers were not given, indicating those were lower than they expected). This is for 56 matches.
This years team handball European Championship was cumulated watched by over one billion (http://www.sportpresseportal.de/news/540) viewers - fewer than the last one, which reached 1,2 billion. That is for 47 matches.

My opinions are based on facts. These viewing figures are not relevant to this conversation because I just looked and those viewing figures for the Handball are from around the world, as it says in the article "Overall, the tournament was broadcast in 85 territories –particularly in Europe, the Middle East and Asia", so these viewing figures are completely irrelevant. I bet you also that the Ice Hockey was broadcasted in alot less countries and also Ice Hockey isnt a good t.v sport so to be honest I wouldn't pay to much attention to the viewing figures of something:)

Think about this:

assumption 1:
Germany has a population of ~82 millions lets assume 60 millions of those would qualify "luge" as their favorite sport. In all the rest of Europe only another 2 millions would rate "luge" as their no. 1 sport.

assumption 2:
Only 1 million of Germany's population names ice hockey their no. 1 sport. In a dozen of other European countries ice hockey at least the countries second biggest sport or even number one. Yet the total of all those fans naming ice hockey their favorite sport would not exceed 40 millions....

conclusion? Would that make luge a bigger sport than ice hockey in Europe only because the one country with the biggest population draws so many fans?

You could argue in absolute numbers and yes - luge would be bigger - but frankly it would still just be a German sport and for sure not Europe's number one even if it was by absolute numbers.

conclusion? Would that make luge a bigger sport than ice hockey in Europe only because the one country with the biggest population draws so many fans?
As implied in my posts, I do think that absolute numbers should have weight in this discussion. A Englishman is as much European as a Slovak.

Besides, I haven't checked it, but I don't think a Danish hockey match was followed by more than the 2 mil. Danes, that watched the handball semifinal against Germany last year. That's 10 mil. Europeans watching it in those two countries alone. It's not like handball was an Germany exclusive sport, though it's surely most popular here, while being totally insignificant in some other and less popular in the rest of European countries.

The question of popularity in this case is a quite complex one. You can't single out one sole indicator and base your measurement on it (be it attendance, tv figures, number of participants, media attention, sales of club merchandise or whatever) imo.

Whole text is OT but...

I would say that basketball is 2nd popular sport in Europe as it's played in the whole continent as hockey really doesnt exist in big european countries like France, Spain and Italy. It really doesnt help that hockey is played professionally at high level in only 5-10 countries. Like said before in many countries were ice hockey is big, also basketball is considered as a "major" sport, like here in Finland.
And as basketball eurochamps were expanded to 24 teams, we now stand a great chance to qualify which surely would make bball even more popular here.

Videos from Finnish bball finals this year: :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfF4gw8QUvA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SERaYQk2jO8&feature=related

Whole text is OT but...

I would say that basketball is 2nd popular sport in Europe as it's played in the whole continent as hockey really doesnt exist in big european countries like France, Spain and Italy. It really doesnt help that hockey is played professionally at high level in only 5-10 countries. Like said before in many countries were ice hockey is big, also basketball is considered as a "major" sport, like here in Finland.
And as basketball eurochamps were expanded to 24 teams, we now stand a great chance to qualify which surely would make bball even more popular here.

Videos from Finnish bball finals this year: :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfF4gw8QUvA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SERaYQk2jO8&feature=related

How can you say hockey doesn't exist in france and Italy. Italy has 2 good standard leagues and the average attendance in their league is probably better than the average attendance for the basketball league in Finland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5F9KPOaUr4&feature=related

In France the sport is a good standard as well and the playoff finals there have sold out three times in a row in a 15,000 seater arena. The average attendance in their league is twice as big as the basketball league in Finland. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHKBrdQ6IeM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MRrrknRgjM&feature=related

Look in my opinion Ice Hockey is the 2nd biggest sport in europe. The only countries where Ice Hockey really isn't played is the Iberian Peninsula, Serbia and Montenegro, Bosnia, Albania and Greece and thats it. That is only 6 countries:)

The only countries where Ice Hockey really isn't played is the Iberian Peninsula, Serbia and Montenegro, Bosnia, Albania and Greece and thats it. That is only 6 countries:)
That's 6 more than basketball then. Funny most of them are basketball hotbeds.

FYI, Serbia and Montenegro does not exist as a country any more. Also Serbia is better than Belgium, Bulgaria, Ireland (not to mention Turkey, which you have conveniently left out above) and only a couple of points adrift of Romania in the IIHF rankings.

That's 6 more than basketball then. Funny most of them are basketball hotbeds.

FYI, Serbia and Montenegro does not exist as a country any more. Also Serbia is better than Belgium, Bulgaria, Ireland (not to mention Turkey, which you have conveniently left out above) and only a couple of points adrift of Romania in the IIHF rankings.

Yeah sorry I left out Turkey as I didn't want to start off a debate. Anyway I bet ice hockey in Serbia and Turkey is no smaller than basketball in the UK

Turkey is not really a european country, but then again, I disagree with jekoh on other spheres too.

To make the statistics more accurate, why are you considering useless countries, in a useless argument on this number 2 spot of europe sport.

The pan european league will obviously involve clubs in established hockey cities or ones with realistic potential. There are certain places where people adore hockey where hockey is not popular for example Nottingham. The clubs participating will already be solid clubs from good hockey places, and hockey is therefore going to get more popular. Overall I think having a larger league with better and more high level competition/budget is a positive thing and will increase hockey in europe.

Imo there is no point to these crappy low level domestic leagues like Austria or France. Even leagues like DEL are not at all impressive. Germany has no real interest in hockey or talent because half of all the rosters including germay-2 are North Americans.

I think the best way to do things is like the champions league football. Where there are solid international franchises going head to head. Right now maybe clubs from Italy and DEL are boring to watch but over time it could be like Bayern-Inter, and would cause great interest.

This idea is btw a rip off from the Russians, and thats what Medvedev has been trying to implement with the KHL

Guys, Frank16 just clearly has no idea. It's one thing to discuss with a couple of friends what's popular in Europe, its another thing to actually know what is popular and what isn't through first hand experience.

There is almost no question that basketball is far more popular in Europe in general than ice hockey. There really isn't a comparison to be made. That's not to say that ice hockey doesn't have a following, but to make such an assertion is just plain wrong.

Frank16 can stay deluded if he wants though.

yunost - Thing, the reason why Bayern-Inter is so prestigious is because domestic leagues are strong in soccer. If Serie A and Bundesliga didn't have a history, the CL would be nothing. The reason soccer is so popular is because its a fabric of European culture. You can't just mix teams from different countries together and expect it to be a success.

Guys, Frank16 just clearly has no idea. It's one thing to discuss with a couple of friends what's popular in Europe, its another thing to actually know what is popular and what isn't through first hand experience.

There is almost no question that basketball is far more popular in Europe in general than ice hockey. There really isn't a comparison to be made. That's not to say that ice hockey doesn't have a following, but to make such an assertion is just plain wrong.

Frank16 can stay deluded if he wants though.

yunost - Thing, the reason why Bayern-Inter is so prestigious is because domestic leagues are strong in soccer. If Serie A and Bundesliga didn't have a history, the CL would be nothing. The reason soccer is so popular is because its a fabric of European culture. You can't just mix teams from different countries together and expect it to be a success.

Look guys I used to think basketball was bigger in Europe than Ice Hockey until a couple of years ago when I was told it wasn't by my dad. For the past 2-3 years my dad has been on the london 2012 olympic committee for GB handball. For those of you who don't know handball isn't played at all in Britain and about 90% of people don't actually know what handball is, anyway we(GB) have been trying to build a team by training people and sending them to camps in europe and other places. We are still very poor but seeing as we started from scratch I think we are doing well. Anyway my dad is involved in other sports in the UK so that is why they asked him to be involved in the Handball. When my Dad accepted he had no idea what the popularity was of handball so he asked, what the committee did was supply him with document that showed the popularity of all sports in every country, continent and the world, They also sent him to the European championships in 2008 ( I think it was in Norway?). Anyway on the document my dad recieved, in europe the team sports were ranked by popularity, these are the top 5 in order. Football, Ice Hockey, Basketball, Handball, Rugby. Do not ask me how they rank these because I have absolutely no idea but I guess they probably have some type of points system based on media coverage, attendance e.t.c. Call me deluded of whatever you want but I get my opinion on this subject from a source that actually knowsthe facts, you might think I'm lying about this but I swear to God I am not. If anyone on here knows anyone from anything to do with the olympics ask them about this and I am sure you willl get the same answer I got, Ice Hockey is the 2nd most popular sport in Europe

[...]on the document my dad recieved, in europe the team sports were ranked by popularity, these are the top 5 in order. Football, Ice Hockey, Basketball, Handball, Rugby. Do not ask me how they rank these because I have absolutely no idea but I guess they probably have some type of points system based on media coverage, attendance e.t.c. Call me deluded of whatever you want but I get my opinion on this subject from a source that actually knowsthe facts, [...]
Even if you knew what exactly they measured, I'd ask, how they statistically weighted the indicators (if more than one were used at all). Two completely neutral researchers could come to very different results in consequence of different weighted (and reasoned why they did so) indicators:
Is the attendance more important than tv audience? If so, by what factor? Should the number of participants thrown into the calculation? Of all countries combined or maybe proportinable to each countries population? Should only the top level leagues be focused on? What about amateur level? What about the number of clubs and their localization? How should media attention be measured if at all? Total number of hours of respective broadcasts and articles in each country? And should eachs media landsscape in some way be factored in (number of tv channels, circulation of newspapers and magazines etc.)?
We won't see a paper immune to criticism regarding this subject.

Could a mod put this discussion in an own or other thread? It got pretty much OT from the topic of a European league and the European Trophy.

--------------
* Addressing the need for an annual World Club Championship (Victoria Cup) between the Stanley Cup champion and the European champion
* Champions Hockey League – an opportunity for a re-launchKalervo Kummola (Finnish hockey fed boss, high ranking IIHF official) has been trying to get this re-started, he said during the Worlds that it might return next season as an 8 team final tournament but looks like that might have to wait until 2011-2012 season.
post 45 of this thread (http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=26156419#post26156419)

Yeah sorry I left out Turkey as I didn't want to start off a debate. Anyway I bet ice hockey in Serbia and Turkey is no smaller than basketball in the UK
Considering Turkey has only around 600 registered players, i think it's safe to say UK bball is much bigger. Newcastle Eagles Team Northumbria Basketball Club alone has twice as many members according to http://www.englandbasketball.co.uk/findAclub/

Ice hockey might be more popular if comparing just attendances of the leagues and media coverage in certain countries, but overall basketball is much more bigger here in europe. That's why there is euroleague, eurocup, eurochallenge. And ice hockey fails to make even a one european league cause there isnt sponsors, media doesnt care, etc. It's just natural that sports which are easy to play, dont need much money..... are more popular. Btw how are things in Britain between those two?

Ice hockey might be more popular if comparing just attendances of the leagues and media coverage in certain countries, but overall basketball is much more bigger here in europe. That's why there is euroleague, eurocup, eurochallenge. And ice hockey fails to make even a one european league cause there isnt sponsors, media doesnt care, etc. It's just natural that sports which are easy to play, dont need much money..... are more popular. Btw how are things in Britain between those two?

Both of the sports are small in the UK but Ice Hockey is alot bigger than basketball. Ice Hockey in the UK is really on the up at the moment as a whole. The top league which is called the Elite League has really improved in every aspect of the game. There are 2 new teams joining the league, Crowds are up, standard has improved and we are entering our 3rd year of t.v coverage and generally the league is as stable as it has ever been. The league below which is called the EPL has also improved, they are attracting better talent and the average attendance in the league is about 1,000 which I think is very good for the second division. On the other hand there is basketball which is as popular in the UK as netball is in afghanistan, the standard isn't good and the average crowd in the top league is about 600 which is worse than the second division of Ice Hockey. There is some good news though for basketball in the UK which is I have heard that they might show some of their games on t.v next year, but anyway Ice Hockey is just alot bigger than basketball overall:)

Nice to hear ice hockey doing well there. hope you guys all the best :) I remember reading about one finnish ball player whos playing back there in Worthington and he also said that bball is quite a big bigger thing in Finland than in GB.

This just in:

According to Swedish hockey news site Hockeysverige.se, the latest news regarding a European league is that it can start up by the season 2012/13 and consist of 40 teams in four geographic divisions as follows: 10 teams from Sweden, 10 teams from Finland, 10 teams from Germany and 10 teams from "other" countries, mainly eastern and central Europe.

60% of the games will be played within the own division, 20% against the closest division and the remaining 20% against "other" teams. The site stated Sweden as an example, playing 60% of the games against other Swedish teams, 20% against Finnish teams and 20% of the games against the remaining teams. The regular season will consist of "around" 65 games, and the winner of each geographic division will face off against the top two KHL teams to determine a European champion.

Here's the original article, nicely translated from Swedish into English courtesy of Google... ;)

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hockeysverige.se%2Fnews_show_sa-blir-utbrytarligan.html%3Fid%3D10075786&sl=sv&tl=en

yunost - Thing, the reason why Bayern-Inter is so prestigious is because domestic leagues are strong in soccer. If Serie A and Bundesliga didn't have a history, the CL would be nothing. The reason soccer is so popular is because its a fabric of European culture. You can't just mix teams from different countries together and expect it to be a success.

True, but my point is that CL is more popular than domestic.
Although I agree that the dynamics of culture and other important facts could not be compared, I think one that could is the competition itself.

For example I would like to know how the best clubs of Sweden would do against that of Finland, or Czech.
CL is interesting because its the best clubs of the domestic leagues. Obviously nobody cares about the lower level italy-austria soccer clubs either.
Thats why I think everyone in europe is excited for NHL games such as the season starters, and Victoria cup. NHL is the best league. Its like a full arena in Lithuania for a KHL game.

This just in:

According to Swedish hockey news site Hockeysverige.se, the latest news regarding a European league is that it can start up by the season 2012/13 and consist of 40 teams in four geographic divisions as follows: 10 teams from Sweden, 10 teams from Finland, 10 teams from Germany and 10 teams from "other" countries, mainly eastern and central Europe.

60% of the games will be played within the own division, 20% against the closest division and the remaining 20% against "other" teams. The site stated Sweden as an example, playing 60% of the games against other Swedish teams, 20% against Finnish teams and 20% of the games against the remaining teams. The regular season will consist of "around" 65 games, and the winner of each geographic division will face off against the top two KHL teams to determine a European champion.

Here's the original article, nicely translated from Swedish into English courtesy of Google... ;)

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hockeysverige.se%2Fnews_show_sa-blir-utbrytarligan.html%3Fid%3D10075786&sl=sv&tl=en


WTF are 25% of the league German!?!? DEL sucks and NLA would school it anyday

WTF are 25% of the league German!?!? DEL sucks and NLA would school it anyday
According to this article (http://hockey.expressen.se/elitserien/1.2016586/nya-europakartan-for-svenska-hockeylag), German, Swiss and Austrian teams will be in one division.
http://www.expressen.se/polopoly_fs/1.2016600!defaultImage/2948831170.jpg
from the expressen.se article linked above

According to this article (http://hockey.expressen.se/elitserien/1.2016586/nya-europakartan-for-svenska-hockeylag), German, Swiss and Austrian teams will be in one division.
http://www.expressen.se/polopoly_fs/1.2016600!defaultImage/2948831170.jpg
from the expressen.se article linked above

Very interesting, BUT:

1) Is this going to be REAL league or just some equivalent of soccer Champions league? Will those teams still play their national leagues along with this or will play only European league?

2) What mean those 4 czech teams in eastern division? I expect CZE should have there at least 6 teams and it's still not enough when Sweden and Finland are supposed to have 10 teams.

1) Seems like plan for a real league - would be tough for the teams to still play in their national leagues with more than 60 matches there alone, I guess.

2) Those teams were named in a presentation at Luleå. More teams are invited. I'm sure there are plans for more czech teams in that division.

Teams will have to decide about it by january 2011.
Per-Anders Örtendahl is chairman of the group behind this.

1) Seems like plan for a real league - would be tough for the teams to still play in their national leagues with more than 60 matches there alone, I guess.

2) Those teams were named in a presentation at Luleå. More teams are invited. I'm sure there are plans for more czech teams in that division.

Teams will have to decide about it by january 2011.
Per-Anders Örtendahl is chairman of the group behind this.

Ok, thanks. I think it definitely should be real league. Otherwise it would die soon as hockey champions league did. And I really hope they review those invited teams.:shakehead

Why it's so hard to do things right in hockey?

Okay, this league sounds better than KHL with 70 teams, but... Just copy the Champions League from soccer. A good Champions Hockey League would be way better than massive 50 team European league.

As a Finn im concerned what this will do SM-liiga (our hockey league). It will be nothing when the big teams leave.

Okay, this league sounds better than KHL with 70 teams, but... Just copy the Champions League from soccer. A good Champions Hockey League would be way better than massive 50 team European league.

As a Finn im concerned what this will do SM-liiga (our hockey league). It will be nothing when the big teams leave.

This is really the best option and I really this will come true some day.

This is starting to be tradition. Last summer swewde's told us that new European league is starting up very soon. And now same again...

Well i'm wondering why there is so little teams in Switzerland? There are many good teams. In Finland there are Jokerit, HIFK, and Kärpät for sure. Jokerit owner Hjallis Harkimo just said that Jokerit will play in European league if it starts some day. And Kärpät General Manager Juha Junno has said the same. And HIFK follows Jokerit because these two teams you cannot play different leagues. Tappara and TPs are also rumoured. Yea maybe. TPS has still economical issues which consider's their glory years 89-01. It's getting better but they need more money quickly if they want to play this league. Tappara has a VERY rich owner behind. He's not using money atm but mayb he would interest this? Okay here is 5/10 teams of Finland.

Let's think about last 5 teams. There is still left 9-10 potential teams.

Blues, Espoo:
Blues is struggling with Jokerit and HIFK. They have to fight fans and sponsor money with those two monsters.
HPK, Hämeenlinna

Ilves, Tampere:
Ilves is Tappara's rival number one and same to opposite. So where Tappara plays there should be Ilves.

JYP, Jyväskylä:
Good organisation. They have come to top of the SM-liiga. They have to be with EURO league.

KalPa, Kuopio:
Same story with JYP

Lukko, Rauma:
Money, money, money. Money talks ******** walks. Lukko has money so they might be in EURO league too.

Pelicans, Lahti:
No thanks too much economical problems.
SaiPa, Lappeenranta:
Too tiny.

Ässät, Pori:
Maybe the only choice to tenth team.

(Sport, Vaasa):
They might have very very tiny chances to be with but I don't believe this.

Btw. why not to give one or two spots to Denmark and Norway in swedish and finnish divisions:naughty:

At least in the Finnish and Swedish divisions the implementation of a promotion/relegation system should be possible, imo. Those divisions could be seen as their respective countries new top tier league.

In the D-A-CH division, I think they may aim for another Austrian team in Vienna Capitals (already were interested in previous plans) and German big city clubs: Kölner Haie, their rival Düsseldorfer EG, Hamburg (Anschutz) and Frankfurt even though some of theses are not in best shape financially.

I'm cautiously optimistic about this.

I've almost lost all interest in SEL and if it weren't for all the great prospects in the league I probably wouldn't follow it at all.

If they could make it work and if it would develop into a serious, prestigious league, then it could spark my interest in european hockey again and that would be great, although for some reason I really doubt that they can pull it off.

Why it's so hard to do things right in hockey?

Okay, this league sounds better than KHL with 70 teams, but... Just copy the Champions League from soccer. A good Champions Hockey League would be way better than massive 50 team European league.

As a Finn im concerned what this will do SM-liiga (our hockey league). It will be nothing when the big teams leave.

You are thinking the wrong way! The point of divisions and 60% of interdivisional matches is that the division will Replace the league. There are 10-15 teams in both Sweden and Finland.
If 10 are in the division and play 60% of the matches together, its just like the SM-Liiga or SEL.
The Markets would stay the same and the fans could have the same rivalries and with home teams as before.
There will just be an addition of interesting matches from other strong clubs(40%).

My thought is that the domestic first leagues will become feeder leagues and/or development development farm teams.

You are thinking the wrong way! The point of divisions and 60% of interdivisional matches is that the division will Replace the league. There are 10-15 teams in both Sweden and Finland.
If 10 are in the division and play 60% of the matches together, its just like the SM-Liiga or SEL.
The Markets would stay the same and the fans could have the same rivalries and with home teams as before.
There will just be an addition of interesting matches from other strong clubs(40%).

My thought is that the domestic first leagues will become feeder leagues and/or development development farm teams.

This. National leagues as top leagues will die sooner or later. Some form of international top league in Europe is just unavoidable.

According to this article (http://hockey.expressen.se/elitserien/1.2016586/nya-europakartan-for-svenska-hockeylag), German, Swiss and Austrian teams will be in one division.
http://www.expressen.se/polopoly_fs/1.2016600!defaultImage/2948831170.jpg
from the expressen.se article linked above

For Slovakia the teams to definitely join the league would be Slovan Bratislava and HC Košice. They´re the only two teams who are weatlhy enough and could already now compete against at least some of the clubs that will be included. Also they are (Košice) or will be (Slovan) the only teams with an arena that belongs into such a league.

Not sure whether there would be any more teams from Slovakia or rather more Czech teams or for example one team from Hungary (it would have to work kind of like Riga/Minsk etc. do in the KHL and the Hungarians already have such a team in th Austrian league in Alba Volán, they probably wouldn´t be able to compete at this level for now though). Maybe if Dukla Trenčín can get it together until the league would possibly start, Pavol Demitra is rumoured to take charge there after he is finished in the NHL, so maybe he can change things to better as Dukla has been struggling in the past two seasons. Other than that the only possible situation would most probably be merging two clubs into one- for example Zvolen and Banská Bystrica- but that seems quite impossible, they hate each other etc.


EDIT: Btw, why no Danish or Norwegian team in either of the Swedish/Finnish division when you already have an Austrian one in the "German"?

For Slovakia the teams to definitely join the league would be Slovan Bratislava and HC Košice. They´re the only two teams who are weatlhy enough and could already now compete against at least some of the clubs that will be included. Also they are (Košice) or will be (Slovan) the only teams with an arena that belongs into such a league.

Not sure whether there would be any more teams from Slovakia or rather more Czech teams or for example one team from Hungary (it would have to work kind of like Riga/Minsk etc. do in the KHL and the Hungarians already have such a team in th Austrian league in Alba Volán, they probably wouldn´t be able to compete at this level for now though). Maybe if Dukla Trenčín can get it together until the league would possibly start, Pavol Demitra is rumoured to take charge there after he is finished in the NHL, so maybe he can change things to better as Dukla has been struggling in the past two seasons. Other than that the only possible situation would most probably be merging two clubs into one- for example Zvolen and Banská Bystrica- but that seems quite impossible, they hate each other etc.


EDIT: Btw, why no Danish or Norwegian team in either of the Swedish/Finnish division when you already have an Austrian one in the "German"?

If you consider that proportion of czechoslovakian league used to be 9/3, so I think that proportion 6/4 or 7/3 here would be nice improvement for Slovaks:)

Attendance for these teams from hockeyarenas.net (http://hockeyarenas.net/index.php3?page=0100&tmID=178&strSearch=hifk)
team/ last seasons average attendance/ best average attendance recorded at that site/ arena capacity

D-A-CH division (I doubt a lot of Austrians and Swiss would like it to be called German)
1. Adler Mannheim/ 11.094/ 12.688/ 13.600
2. Eisbären Berlin / .14.060/ 14.060/ 14.200
3. Red Bull Salzburg/ 2.634/ 2.757/ 3.600 (new arena was planned)
4. SC Bern/ ...........16.005 / 16.203/ 17.131
5. ZSC Lions/ ..........7.941/ 9.233/ 10.700
6. Vienna Capitals/... 4.036/ 4.049/ 7.000
7. Kölner Haie/ .......10.076/ 13.400/ 18.500
8. Düsseldorfer EG/ ..5.707/ 11.160/ 13.400
9. Hamburg/........... 6.993/ 12.055/ 12.759
10.Frankfurt/.......... 5.894/ 6.806/ 6.946 (new arena was planned)

Swedish division
1. Frölunda/ ..11.399/ 11.682/ 12.044
2. HV71/ ........6.939/ 7.010/ 7.038
3. Linköping/ ...6.899/ 7.703/ 8.500
4. Färjestad/ ..6.784/ 7.956/ 8.646
5. Djurgården/ 7.034/ 9.571/ 14.119
6. Malmö/ .......5.592/ 5.916/ 13.500
7. Luleå/ .........5.332/ 5.332/ 6.000
8.
9.
10.

Finnish division:
1. Kärpät/ .....5.691/ 6.310/ 6.614
2. Jokerit/ .....8.295/ 10.421/ 13.665
3. Turku/ ......6.057/ 8.183/ 11.820
4. HIFK/ ........6.306/ 7.007/ 8.120
5. Tampere/ ...5.523/ 6.430/ 7.800
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

East division
1. Sparta Prag ..6.525/ 7.774/ 14.475
2. Liberec/ ........5.527/ 6.009/ 7.500
3. Slavia Prag ...5.430/ 8.076/ 18.000
4. Zlín/ ............4.744/ 6.911/ 7.000
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Why it's so hard to do things right in hockey?

Okay, this league sounds better than KHL with 70 teams, but... Just copy the Champions League from soccer. A good Champions Hockey League would be way better than massive 50 team European league.


Agree (even if KHL bashing wasn't needed)

This is a great idea! Finally something that they've really thought through and not just some mish mash proposal. This could actually work.

I hope it comes together, but this sort of thing seems to pop-up every year.

Loving it!

I wonder which teams will be in the swedish division amonst the 3 spots that are left. MODO (they got an invite). So two spots left if they say yes.

Skellefteå, AIK, Brynäs, Timrå, Södertälje (or maybe even Leksand).

Hmms, personally I think it will be AIK and Brynäs of those teams but I don't like that Skellefteå and Timrå will miss out since they are quite good and seems to have better organisation than AIK and Brynäs. Södertälje doesn't stand a chance IMO.

Malmö is interested.
To be part of it, clubs have pay 6 mil. SEK (about 620.000€ or 750.000$ atm).
Aftonbladet talks about 32 teams and lists Vålerenga IF from Norway as one of them.
(Link (http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/hockey/sverige/allsvenskan/article7267795.ab))

Btw, is there some political reason that the google translation tool translates "The Hockey League" from that Swedish article to "NHL" in German? They are taking every chance spreading their dominance in hockey, don't they? ;)

I think it would be better to create a champions league competition rather than have this huge league and to be honest I think this league will never happen but if it did do you think it would be good if the league had some teams from the non-conventional countries like Great Britain, Italy and France. For example Nottingham Panthers currently average 4,700 fans but If the standard of the Elite League increased to say the standard of the DEL I can gurantee that average attendance would go from 4,700 to 7,000. Most of you guys probably wont like the idea of having the non-coventional hockey nations in the league but I would be interested to hear what you guys would think if they were asked to join

I hope and think this will be reality maybe not in 2012 but certainly in 2013 :handclap:

I'm pissed of for the SM-Liiga management because they have done shi**y job for years and have digged their own crave and this would be a perfect slap to their face. And what ever happens to SM-Liiga after this new league...I don't care...buy maybe a coffin.

As a member of Luleå Hockey I was there at the annual meeting when the board presented the suggestion to us and asked the meeting to take a stance.

I voted 'Aye' to the proposal together with the rest of the attending members. We want to to face the best clubs and attract the "best" players. Staying in the remnants of Elitserien after ten clubs joins the new league and a larger market would be to commit suicide and state that we don't believe that we can compete on this level. Another big part for a lot of people to vote yes was the fact the KHL wasn't involved (except for the Champions series at the end of the season).

It will be a fun journey towards a new league and hopefully it will become a reality.

As a member of Luleå Hockey I was there at the annual meeting when the board presented the suggestion to us and asked the meeting to take a stance.

I voted 'Aye' to the proposal together with the rest of the attending members. We want to to face the best clubs and attract the "best" players. Staying in the remnants of Elitserien after ten clubs joins the new league and a larger market would be to commit suicide and state that we don't believe that we can compete on this level. Another big part for a lot of people to vote yes was the fact the KHL wasn't involved (except for the Champions series at the end of the season).

It will be a fun journey towards a new league and hopefully it will become a reality.

Its funny you liberal west europeans should say that when the KHL invented, and started the idea.
Before being kicked out, the KHL sponsored the study that the Swedes were conducting. And the KHL president put alot of pressure on the IIHF president to push for this idea.

Its funny you liberal west europeans should say that when the KHL invented, and started the idea.
Before being kicked out, the KHL sponsored the study that the Swedes were conducting. And the KHL president put alot of pressure on the IIHF president to push for this idea.
It was never Loob & Co's intention to build a league that would be dependent on russian interests. I'm glad that they decided to make sure the russians got the hell out of this project in order to actually build something that might last.

Sweden is also the country that has the organisation, knowledge and trust in the hockey world to actually make a league like this happen. Russia lacks at least the third and the other two are doubtful at best. The only thing they got is money.

It was never Loob & Co's intention to build a league that would be dependent on russian interests. I'm glad that they decided to make sure the russians got the hell out of this project in order to actually build something that might last.

Sweden is also the country that has the organisation, knowledge and trust in the hockey world to actually make a league like this happen. Russia lacks at least the third and the other two are doubtful at best. The only thing they got is money.

I wasnt saying that this league should be dependable on KHL, I was responding to the 'not part of it' comment. When again Russia invented the idea.

as for the rest of your post I think its outright ridiculous! A project that might last!?!? Yes, I support this project and I hope it does, but I guarantee that the KHL is here to stay, and will always be an older and better league.

Your last paragraph gets even worse!!! The KHL is VERY well organised and getting better.
The other ones I guess are just trying to be insulting; are you trying to say that Russia has no trust or knowledge!?

Russia in the past has DOMINATED world hockey, and after the collapse of the soviet union were able to rebuild and come back to currently ranking #1 in the world. No knowledge? Even during its bad years, the RSL was better than the SEL.
A very high amount of world class players are Russians developed in Russia's system, with some NHL captains as Russians. Last years NHL MVP selection were ALL Russians.

The only reason more Swedes get drafted is because everyone knows that Swedes are quick to leave their homeland once they have a chance. And they know that pathetic SEL cant compete. Russians on the other hand dont get drafted as much unless they explicitly make a promise to stay, and their home clubs will fight for them. Thats a respectable thing if you look at it objectively.
Thats actually part of why I want this europe league; so weak leagues can become competitive.

Its funny that these unorganized and unknowledgeable Russians compared to Swedes made a league that left the SEL in the dust. And just before you even try to argue that, keep in mind that russia has 21 KHL teams in the past season, compared to the SEL with 12. If SEL attempted to create 21 top tier teams it just would not work, and they would be the crappiest teams like DEL.
And no, its not because Russia has a bigger population, the amount of registered hockey players is comparable, see IIHF stats.

As for the money that they have, well, its your problem Swedes, Swedish corporations, or Swedish governance dont support their own hockey program like Russians do.
The point is that Russia is not just rich and throws money and automatically becomes better. If Saudi Arabians tried to create a league with all their money it would still suck(at least for the first couple of decades)

I dont mean to make this some off topic rant post, but when people say things like Russia has no knowledge or trust in hockey, something has to be said.

I dont mean to make this some off topic rant post, but when people say things like Russia has no knowledge or trust in hockey, something has to be said.

Of course Russians have knowledge and trust in hockey. But I agree with that they probably don't have trust in some new intenational european project, just because they have KHL. And it's natural, why would they want to seriously participate in something like this along with building strong KHL? I think this structure without russian clubs which is discussed now is ok for everybody.

Well well, so that's what happens if I don't visit the board for a couple of days :yo:

My first idea: I love it! In former discussions over the past months I was always cautious about plans for a trans-national league in Europe, but I somehow reached a point where I can see a big opportunity for European hockey here. And I guess I really have had enough of this whole DEL desaster every summer.

I can't really contribute to the discussion about the Swedish teams right now, but I like what Rjinswand put together for the D-A-CH-division.

Hockey is no1 sports in 4 countries: Finland,latvia,Belarus and Switzerland

IF Leksand interested (http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/hockey/sverige/allsvenskan/article7281541.ab)

team/ last seasons average attendance/ best average attendance recorded at that site/ arena capacity

Swedish division
1. Frölunda/ ..11.399/ 11.682/ 12.044
2. HV71/ .........6.939/..7.010/...7.038
3. Linköping/ ....6.899/ .7.703/ ..8.500
4. Färjestad/ ....6.784/ .7.956/ ..8.646
5. Djurgården/ ..7.034/ .9.571/ 14.119
6. Malmö/ ........5.592/ .5.916/ 13.500
7. Luleå/ ..........5.332/ 5.332/ ..6.000
8. MoDo/...........6.405/ 7.056/ ..7.600
9. IF Leksand/....4.785/ 6.098/ ..7.650
10. AIK, Brynäs, Timrå?

Hockey is no1 sports in 4 countries: Finland,latvia,Belarus and Switzerland

For Switzerland, football would be no1.

Finnish hockey federation boss Kalervo Kummola said that teams and players from any "rogue league" would be banned from all IIHF competitions.

Sounds like someone is not too happy about the plan for the new league.

Sounds like someone is not too happy about the plan for the new league.

Of course all clubs of national leagues, which won't be invited will be against it.

What i'm reading to jatkoaika.com (it's finnish ice-hocky forum) there seems to be three kind of opinions.

1. 5-8 teams in Finland there and league should be closed.

2. 10-12 teams in Finland and promotions and relegatiuons should be available.

3. Let's continue with SM-liiga but with 12 teams.

Me personally thinks that 2. opinion is best. 10 teams from Finland and promotions and relegations with finnish second tier league (Mestis or SM-liiga or whatever it's name would be).

What i'm reading to jatkoaika.com (it's finnish ice-hocky forum) there seems to be three kind of opinions.

1. 5-8 teams in Finland there and league should be closed.

2. 10-12 teams in Finland and promotions and relegatiuons should be available.

3. Let's continue with SM-liiga but with 12 teams.

Me personally thinks that 2. opinion is best. 10 teams from Finland and promotions and relegations with finnish second tier league (Mestis or SM-liiga or whatever it's name would be).

Ok, then we want also 10 teams.

...
2. 10-12 teams in Finland and promotions and relegatiuons should be available.
...
Me personally thinks that 2. opinion is best. 10 teams from Finland and promotions and relegations with finnish second tier league (Mestis or SM-liiga or whatever it's name would be).

That way, there would be less problems with the national hockey associations and IIHF and it surely would be easier receiving acceptance of a larger part of hockey fans.
The divisions could become the new respective top tiers. In the D-A-CH division it would be more problematic to find a fitting format, but it seems doable.

Edit:
Thanks for the pointer to jatkoaika.com forum - the euro league thread there is very interesting. Is there a comparable Swedish, Slovak or Czech forum?

Finnish hockey federation boss Kalervo Kummola said that teams and players from any "rogue league" would be banned from all IIHF competitions.

But that kind of statements would only backfire against the national team as that'd mean they'd have to pick a core of the players from whatever league is left when a majority of the teams from the top league leaves for the new European league, so in Finland's case they'd have to pick players mostly from the Mestis league. I doubt that'd improve the quality of the national team...

40 teams seems like a lot

And what would be the financial requirements for the teams joining? If they want any chance on competing with the NHL and the KHL the teams budgets would have to rise considerably.

40 teams seems like a lot

And what would be the financial requirements for the teams joining? If they want any chance on competing with the NHL and the KHL the teams budgets would have to rise considerably.
Depends on whether they can gain more from sponsors, which may be interested due to wider exposure, and tv broadcasts. I don't see there much of a chance at least in Germany to be honest. One option may be Europsport - their european reach might be interesting to attract sponsors (it's free tv in Germany).

Short- and medium-term effects on budgets:

- Former DEL teams have to pay 200K less for an organisations share (DEL: about 800K€, new league: about 600K€).

- cost of travel will increase.

- More match day income could be generated on average, as matches with less attractive former national league members are replaced with European teams, which at least at first have the attraction of being something new to see. Part of the fans would stay home, though, protesting anything new.

- In the participating countries combined, there will be less top tier teams. Most players want to play for the best teams. The very best will still go to NHL/KHL, but after them, there are fewer options for the rest to play top level, so the clubs gain more weight in salary negotiations - or more players will go to AHL.

I don't think much would change at first. It all depends on attracting better sponsorship deals.

But that kind of statements would only backfire against the national team as that'd mean they'd have to pick a core of the players from whatever league is left when a majority of the teams from the top league leaves for the new European league, so in Finland's case they'd have to pick players mostly from the Mestis league. I doubt that'd improve the quality of the national team...

Kummola wasn't referring to only Finnish players, he means other countries as well. He wasn't commenting just as the head of the Finnish hockey federation but also as an IIHF official.

Finnish hockey federation boss Kalervo Kummola said that teams and players from any "rogue league" would be banned from all IIHF competitions.
http://tubulamarok.free.fr/starwars/sw6.2004-palpatine.gif




That just sounds that Kummola is worried and has to say something like that... if the teams want to do it...they'll do it.

Ok, then we want also 10 teams.

I'm sure this league will evolve over the years if it survives/want to survive.
I'm pretty sure that that reason for the loopsided divisions have to do more with existing TV agreements than anything else.
THe original plans for this league was hatched by some major clubs in Sweden and Finland. Eventually the KHL got intrested and wanted to know if an expansion would be of mutual gain/interest. I believe the investigation indicated that the KHL and the new "scandinavian division" wouldn't stand much to gain from such expansion, whereas a Western European league would generate an insteresting prospect for all stake holders.

The heavy load of Swedish teams, for now, is most likely due to the fact that the SEL's TV deal expires in 2012, so the teams interested in the league can move on without problems. I'm not sure how or what the contracts look like for the teams from Switzerland, Germany, Slovakia, Czech Rep., etc., but over time, I think this league better trim down the number of teams from the smaller countries (SWE & FIN) and balance the league with teams from other "hockey" nations as well as pionering teams from bigger TV markets, not necessarily considered traditional markets.

Last Tuesday's paper KalPa GM sami Kapanen said that KalPa will participate in European hockey league if there is many teams from Finland. Guess he means that Jyp will also participate the league. But he said that KalPa didn't want be with action with hurts national hockey federations.

He said that the best alternative is champions league like Football.

Now there is anout 6-8 teams coming to the league in Finland.

Jokerit
HIFK
Kärpät
TPS (if economical situation is good enough)
Tappara
JYP
KalPa
Lukko (they watching how things are going on. If Ässät participate's Lukko will be there too.)

Team|Nation|Population|Metropolitan |Capacity|Average Attendance
SC Bern|SUI|130000|600000|17131|16005
Eisbären Berlin|GER|3400000|4000000+|14200|14060
Frölunda Indians, Göteborg|SWE|500000|900000|12044|11399
Adler Mannheim|GER|310000|2400000|13600|11094
Kölner Haie|GER|1000000|2900000|18500|10076
Jokerit, Helsinki|FIN|585000|1300000|13506|8295
Zürich Lions|SUI|365000|1100000+|10700|7941
HC Brno|CZE|405000|700000|7200|7158
Djurgården, Stockholm|SWE|830000|2000000|(13850)|7034
Hamburg Freezers|GER|1800000|3000000+|12947|6993
HC Geneve-Servette|SUI|190000|1200000|6700|6691
HC Sparta Praha|CZE|1250000|1900000|(17360)|6525
Frankfurt Lions|GER|670000|2300000+|6946|5894
Metro Stars, Düsseldorf|GER|585000|3100000|13400|5707
Malmö Redhawks|SWE|290000|600000|13700|5592
HC Vítkovice, Ostrava|CZE|335000|1100000|9821|5123
Hannover Scorpions|GER|520000|1100000|10767|5074
Ice Tigers, Nürnberg|GER|500000|1600000|8400|4063
Vienna Capitals|AUT|1680000|2200000|4500|4036
Slovan Bratislava|SVK|430000|600000|10000|3057


Some possible expansion teams later on:
Stuttgart
Munich
Budapest
Copenhagen
Oslo
Zagreb

I like the list, just a few comments on some of the German teams:

The Frankfurt Lions just got kicked out of the DEL. They should have enough trouble keeping their business running in the minor leagues for the next couple of years.

Hannover and Nürnberg had severe financial trouble over the last years. Could be difficult to get them to join.

And Stuttgart didn't have a team playing better than 3rd tier league in (I think) forever. This market is totally undeveloped, so an expansion would have to be considered very carefully.


I think only Berlin, Mannheim, Düsseldorf, Köln and Hamburg have a market that can be considered big enough (today, I'm not talking about future potential, which would have to be developed involving major investment of ressources in the other regions). Whereas the first four teams are basically no-brainers, I consider Hamburg a good hockey market, which the Freezers couldn't serve over the last couple of years due to their own failure and mismanagement.

---

If that kind of league will some day come true I really hope that Jokerit don't take part of league. I'm not interest in to watch all of the years other countries hockey teams.

Team|Nation|Population|Metropolitan |Capacity|Average Attendance
SC Bern|SUI|130000|600000|17131|16005
Eisbären Berlin|GER|3400000|4000000+|14200|14060
Frölunda Indians, Göteborg|SWE|500000|900000|12044|11399
Adler Mannheim|GER|310000|2400000|13600|11094
Kölner Haie|GER|1000000|2900000|18500|10076
Jokerit, Helsinki|FIN|585000|1300000|13506|8295
Zürich Lions|SUI|365000|1100000+|10700|7941
HC Brno|CZE|405000|700000|7200|7158
Djurgården, Stockholm|SWE|830000|2000000|(13850)|7034
Hamburg Freezers|GER|1800000|3000000+|12947|6993
HC Geneve-Servette|SUI|190000|1200000|6700|6691
HC Sparta Praha|CZE|1250000|1900000|(17360)|6525
Frankfurt Lions|GER|670000|2300000+|6946|5894
Metro Stars, Düsseldorf|GER|585000|3100000|13400|5707
Malmö Redhawks|SWE|290000|600000|13700|5592
HC Vítkovice, Ostrava|CZE|335000|1100000|9821|5123
Hannover Scorpions|GER|520000|1100000|10767|5074
Ice Tigers, Nürnberg|GER|500000|1600000|8400|4063
Vienna Capitals|AUT|1680000|2200000|4500|4036
Slovan Bratislava|SVK|430000|600000|10000|3057


Some possible expansion teams later on:
Stuttgart
Munich
Budapest
Copenhagen
Oslo
Zagreb


We are playing EBEL now and there are almost no empty seats at our home games. Can't even imagine what would happend if we , one day in near/far future, join that league. We would probably moved to Arena Zagreb (15.000 seats) or by that time our rich president Gojanović would built new hall only for Medvescak.

Today, Uwe Krupp, Peter John Lee (GM Eisbären Berlin), Petar Briza (GM Sparta Prague), Pierre Pagé (Headcoach EC Red Bull) and Bo Lennartson (European Trophy tournament director) are discussing the topic "Eishockey: Die Zukunft selbst gestalten (http://www.servustv.com/cs/Satellite/Article/Sport-und-Talk-aus-dem-Hangar-7-011259289429610)" ("Icehockey: Shaping the future ourselves").
It will be shown on the Austrian channel servus.tv and streamed on their website (http://www.servustv.com/cs/Satellite/Home-ServusTV.at/001259088496182).
I'll write a short summary if anything new comes out of this.

Sport und Talk aus Hangar 7, Servus TV, 21:05 CET

Edit: Some points

- The European Trophy in its preseason form will be a test. If it creates media interest, fan enthusiasm and buisness opportunities, it will be expanded.
- A continental competition, competed for alongside national championships is wished for.
- All involved parties should work on a schedule for it and acceptable dates for national team matches.
- Lee: Why WHC every year? Total number of matches for each club shouldn`t surpass their current number; somewhat introduced a model like already presented for the presumed European League: Most matches within the league, rest against others.
- It is seen as a way of keeping talents in Europe in some years, building relationships among clubs and making their brands known across the borders.

- IIHF will talk directly to the clubs (first time ever if I got that right - Communication was always this way: IIHF <-> national federations <-> clubs) next week.
- The clubs see ET as a proof of their commitment to hockey as well as of their power and competences
- Why not growing IIHF Continental Cup?
Pagé: Playing against the best teams and players on a reguar basis.
There seems to be skepticism towards IIHFs ability of organizing after CHL.

- a concept for a league is discussed.
- Briza: Other czech GMs are very interested in joining ET.
- Briza: EBEL is a good model, but it will be a long way with a lot of discussions.

At least one match will be broadcasted on German TV.
21 August, 14:00 CET, Sport1 (Free TV): Eisbären Berlin - Djurgarden Stockholm.

Can't wait for this! Its not quite the Champions League but its still nice to see international competition!

Yes it should be very interesting, european hockey needs a champion league type tournament to create interest.

Games are playing right now.

Current scores:

Helsinki - Eisbären Berlin 3-2 [Finished]
Jokerit - Adler Mannheim 1-1 [Before third period]
Vålerenga - Sparta Prague 1-4 [3 mins left]
TPS Turku - ZSC Lions 5-4 [[Finished]
Linköpings HC - Färjestads BK 0-2 [3 mins into second period]
Malmö Redhawks - Frölunda Indians 0-2 [7 mins into third period]

We are playing EBEL now and there are almost no empty seats at our home games. Can't even imagine what would happend if we , one day in near/far future, join that league. We would probably moved to Arena Zagreb (15.000 seats) or by that time our rich president Gojanović would built new hall only for Medvescak.

Yes, but what about your level of play and the hockey situation in your country? Participating in such league would mean that the team has to be -much- stronger, and I doubt you can find Croates to do so, since you have a hard enough time doing that in EBEL. The roster would have to be full of Canadians or others, and it would probably take 2 decades until a whole new generation of strong Croatian hockey players can be very competitive. Depending on the hockey schools...

Yes, but what about your level of play and the hockey situation in your country? Participating in such league would mean that the team has to be -much- stronger, and I doubt you can find Croates to do so, since you have a hard enough time doing that in EBEL. The roster would have to be full of Canadians or others, and it would probably take 2 decades until a whole new generation of strong Croatian hockey players can be very competitive. Depending on the hockey schools...


Trust me, there are plenty of Croats that are on AHL/NHL contract, such as Phil and Victor Oreskovich, Nick Drazenovic, Zach Miskovic, Mark Katic, Nathan Perković ;)

And there are few of them in DEL league as well (Martinovic Sasa and Mike Radja).


But, of course, it is a long shot when we are talking about Medvescak in that league (that even doesn't exist in the moment)

:)

Trust me, there are plenty of Croats that are on AHL/NHL contract, such as Phil and Victor Oreskovich, Nick Drazenovic, Zach Miskovic, Mark Katic, Nathan Perković ;)
And there are few of them in DEL league as well (Martinovic Sasa and Mike Radja).

Don't want to get picky, but while the players you mention are obviously of Croatian descent, their birthplaces lie elsewhere: Nick Drazenovic, Prince George/British Columbia. Phil Oreskovic, Toronto/Ontario. Victor Oreskovich, Whitby/Ontario. Mark Katic, Porcupine/Ontario. Nathan Perkovich, Canton/Michigan. Zach Miskovic, River Forest/Illinois. Mike Radja, Yorkville/Illinois. Sasa Martinovic, Füssen/Germany. Unless these guys are Croatian citizens, they are not more Croats then Canada's own Joe Sakic. That said, I can certainly imagine Canadians and Americans of Croatian ancestry looking to sign with Medvescak, just like Italo-Canadians (Orlando, Di Muzio and many others) with Italian clubs.

Don't want to get picky, but while the players you mention are obviously of Croatian descent, their birthplaces lie elsewhere: Nick Drazenovic, Prince George/British Columbia. Phil Oreskovic, Toronto/Ontario. Victor Oreskovich, Whitby/Ontario. Mark Katic, Porcupine/Ontario. Nathan Perkovich, Canton/Michigan. Zach Miskovic, River Forest/Illinois. Mike Radja, Yorkville/Illinois. Sasa Martinovic, Füssen/Germany. Unless these guys are Croatian citizens, they are not more Croats then Canada's own Joe Sakic. That said, I can certainly imagine Canadians and Americans of Croatian ancestry looking to sign with Medvescak, just like Italo-Canadians (Orlando, Di Muzio and many others) with Italian clubs.

I know, but trust me, every Croat outside Croatia has very strong connection with his "original" country, because their parents or grandparents left Croatia because they had to due to political regime (communism) or poorness (no good ground for food in some places in Croatia, like Lika region ) :)

Any new rumours regarding this topic?

Attendance figures of the ET don't look so good in most cities.

Any new rumours regarding this topic?

He [tournament director Bo Lennartsson]also notes that there is a lot of interest from a lot of clubs in central Europe to take part in the European Trophy in years to come and opens the door to let other teams in. ”We have had 18 teams from seven different countries playing against each other this year and it has worked out very well, but we know there is a lot of clubs who want to have a place in the tournament and when the Salute is over we will sit down to see how we can develope the format of the European Trophy to make it possible for more teams to join.”

and about the attendances:
He is especially impressed with the games hosted by the two German teams, Eisbären Berlin and Adler Mannheim. ”They played the games in their big arenas and got huge crowds to come watch, turning the games into great big hockeyparties.” Lennartsson continues. ”Perhaps that is where we must go with all the games in the future, to try stage them in the biggest arenas.”

http://europeantrophy.com/news.php?news=43

About the last point: Many matches were not played in the respective home stadia. Those small arenas were most of the time still not sold out. Could be disinterest in ET, or icehockey matches at this time of the year in general, or the fans simply did not want to go to other places for watching their home teams. And playing those games in the big arenas does not mean, those automatically draw big crowds: Have a look at the numbers (http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=27340120&postcount=29) at Turkuhalli or Malmö Arena for example.

My opinion the attendance is due large because its simply pre-season, people are all out on holiday before schools go back, its still beautiful outside, better things to do. If you look at tournaments from all around Europe, attendance isnt impressive, even for domestic tournaments were all the clubs are from the same league.

We saw some very great hockey in the ET in my opinion, some bad matches of course, but I would be over the top happy if this become a regular league. Some really hard fought matches, just the standings from the Capital Division make me excited that this could become a regular season. I believe that once they set it up, everything is for real, attendance wont be hurt at all.

Oliver Pilloni, manager KAC (Klagenfurt, Austria):
I Think the league is a very good idea and it makes sense. But we don't know by now what participation at European Trophy would cost. Kleine Zeitung (http://www.kleinezeitung.at/sport/eishockey/99ers/2463376/european-trophy-geht-ins-finale.story)

The club plans to bulid a new 8k+ arena soon. Last years average attendance: 5127 (http://hockeyarenas.net/index.php3?page=4000&arID=152&strSearch=klagenfurt&tmID=131).

Attendance figures of the ET don't look so good in most cities.

Well in Finland only TPS and Kärpät were playing games in there home arena. Tappara, HIFK and Jokerit play there games in other cities so that's why tehere were so less attendance.

Overall, SC Berns leadership is pleased with the ET, but there are points to consider for its future:

Ich würde das Turnier in die Saison reinziehen
I'd schedule the tournament for being played during the season. (Marc Lüthi, SCB-CEO)

Normalerweise ist die Vorbereitung für uns ein Nullsummen-Spiel. Auch im Falle des Turniersiegs hätte für uns aber ein hohes Minus resultiert.
Usually, pre-season is a zero-sum game for us. Even in case of winning the tournament it'd have resulted in a high minus. (Sven Leuenberger, Sportchef)

SC Bern still wants to claim their CHL prize money from IIHF - 100.000€ + lawyers' fees.

Berner Zeitung (http://www.bernerzeitung.ch/sport/hockey/Von-Geld-und-Geist/story/18460987)

Intereting interview with Bo Lennartsson:

Berner Zeitung (http://www.bernerzeitung.ch/sport/hockey/Die-Klubs-geben-die-Richtung-vor/story/18501344)

google translation (english) (http://translate.google.de/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bernerzeitung.ch%2Fsp ort%2Fhockey%2FDie-Klubs-geben-die-Richtung-vor%2Fstory%2F18501344&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8)

You put the IIHF under pressure [with ET]
Of course, and the IIHF is interested in our tournament. I konw that there was a delegation in Austria, which has observed what we're doing exactly. There were no talks with the IIHF representatives. We could surely show that clubs can do something good for the development of European ich hockey, too - not just the IIHF.

Some more points:

- For marketing purposes, next years games will be played in bigger arenas. It was planned, that each team plays in ad-clean jerseys - not every club did so, due to their conrtacts, but they will try it for next year, as they look for a main sponsor for all participating teams. There are interested companies.

- A European league is unrealistic, but this was a good start for developing European hockey. It will stay a pre-season tournament, because it is difficult to schedule its games during season due to some leagues regulations.

- There is a good chance to see more Czech and Swiss teams next year.

- Schedule needs revision.

--------------------------------------

Und BILD erfuhr: Gemeinsam mit schwedischen Kollegen und dem internationalen Verband bastelt Lee jetzt an einer neuen Champions League.

Lee: „Ja, unser Ziel ist eine europäische Liga neben den Meisterschaftsspielen in den jeweiligen Ländern. Dabei wollen wir nicht nur die Meister als Starter, sondern drei bis vier Teams pro Land.“

Together with Swedish colleagues and the international federation Lee [Eisbären Berlin] is working on a new Champions League.

Lee: "Yes, we aim for an European League beside the national championships of the respective countries. We don't want only the champions to participate, but three or four teams per country.
Bild (http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/mehr-sport/eishockey/2010/09/06/eisbaeren-berlin/european-trophy-wahnsinn-sieg-im-finale.html)

------------------------------------

Recap of the discussions over the last few days:
http://www.hockeyfans.ch/background/100905.htm

-------------------------------------

Recap by IIHF:
http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/news/news-singleview/article/saluting-european-club-hockey.html?tx_ttnews[backPid]=955&cHash=6f77583eee

“The German league is important for us and right now I can’t imagine leaving it for a pan-European league,” said Eisbären GM Peter John Lee. “But you never know what happens in, let’s say, 15 years. The losses we have incurred now are an investment to develop something and the clubs who decided to invest something are those who were present.”

Modo said today that they want in on the league, I just hope that our low population won't stand in the way. We have one of the best arenas in Sweden at least, so that should help I hope.

Many Swedish teams will get their butt whooped because we play too much defense, exception HV71, that is why they win (the other clubs don't seem to understand that). I also think there should be a limit for foreign players. I don't want to see 6 or more North American players who were just one small step of making it to the NHL. Max 3 non Euro League players + 4 players max from the Euro League countries (max 7 non national players per team). Some German teams seem to have way too many Canadians.

Problem with having a Euro League is that many people wouldn't be interested in seeing Djurgården vs Mannheim or Kärpät vs Prague. A solution would be having national divisions, however I think that this may have a weird affect on the non division games because the national styles are different, the outcome of the games could be very random.

Anyhow, if this becomes true I beg that AIK will be a part of it because Stockholm needs more derbies, coming from a Djurgården fan.

i hope at least one club from slovakia would participate next year

Representatives of about 30 clubs will disuss the ET on October 21.
Expressen.se (http://hockey.expressen.se/elitserien/1.2129382/i-hemligt-mote-om-den-nya-ligan)

Too many playoffs, keep the Elitserien or merge it with the SM-Liiga. The majority don't want to see Linköping vs Salzburg or Köln. I am not even sure if people would want to see Frölunda vs HIFK... :S

Since the CHL (junior) has been so succesful for Canadian and American development they should do somthing similar in europe the great thing is a big city is not needed so there is plenty of space for players

I’m all for this idea. The local rivalry will not be lost since all the best teams from every country will be in the new league and they will play 60 % of the games against each other. In Swedens case, to replace some of the lesser exciting SEL teams with European top teams as an extra flavour, how could that be bad?

SEL are the strongest league and will loose both fans and quality with a European League.
It's the strongest league after KHL when it comes to quality, economy, arenas and highest average

IIHF to re-launch CHL and tries to get rid of legal claims for compensation.

[...] The planned re-launch will include 16 teams divided in four groups, with fourteen clubs (national champion + regular season winner) coming from the seven top-ranked European countries; Czech Republic, Finland, Germany, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden and Switzerland.

Team 15 and 16 will be the 2011 Continental Cup winner and the defending 2009 Champions Hockey League winner (ZSC Lions Zurich) respectively.

The format foresees a total of 62 games, including a preliminary-group double round-robin, and home-and-away quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals. The opening day is September 7, 2011, with the finals scheduled for January 18 and 25, 2012.

The IIHF will provide financing and personnel resources for the implementation of the Champions Hockey League, thus committing to an excess of CHF 1.5 million per year to cover the expenses for league administration and game and league operation.

Furthermore, the IIHF will provide settlement compensation for the cancelled 2009-2010 Champions Hockey League season. (To the clubs which were due to participate in the 2009-2010 CHL).

Note: The payment of the settlement fee is pending confirmation of participation in the Champions Hockey League re-launch project. The implementation of the settlement program implies withdrawal of any legal claims towards the IIHF. [...]
http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/news/news-singleview/article/ready-for-chl-re-launch.html?tx_ttnews[backPid]=955&cHash=6fed5f4aa5

Edit: This article (http://www.20min.ch/sport/eishockey/story/Schweizer-Klubs-werden-ausgeschlossen-26310632) quotes Fasel and Lüthi (SC Bern):
- there is no prize money
- no tv and marketing contracts are signed at the moment
- if SCB don`t abandon their lawsuit (Lüthi says they won't do so), no Swiss team will be allowed to compete in the CHL

Hockey Europe state they are interested in a CHL re-launch, but they demand these things:
- 32 participating teams instead of 16
- At least one spot for an EBEL team
- legal claims (past CHL prize money etc) are not waived for participation
- There must be financial guarantees, so that at least cost of travel and other cost due to paticipation can be compensated
- it has to be discussed, how much influence clubs and leagues have on the CHL, who owns it and how TV and marketing proceeds are split

http://www.eishockeynews.de/nachricht.html?nachricht_id=13857 (German)

SEL are the strongest league and will loose both fans and quality with a European League.
It's the strongest league after KHL when it comes to quality, economy, arenas and highest average

Sorry but i disagree partly with you. (partly = the majority)

quality wise ... the top teams are equivalent to our top teams, for the bottom of the league ... i agree that it is to your advantage.

but then : In Switzerland we have as many average fans and average spectators than in most other european places. Econcomics are rather positive as well. I do not know the other leagues ... (finland for ex) but the swiss is very decent.

Sorry but i disagree partly with you. (partly = the majority)

quality wise ... the top teams are equivalent to our top teams, for the bottom of the league ... i agree that it is to your advantage.


If a fan places some of the European top league ahead of another he's probably just biased. You could throw some of the top teams from NLA, SM-Liiga, Elitserien and even DEL together, compare them and notice that there is not much difference between them - atleast not on paper. Frölunda, HIFK, Lions, Eisbären, Färjestad, Kärpät, Jokerit etc.very equal talent. On the other hand if we take the european club teams competitions into account the SEL is by far the worst league of these four (NLA, SM-Liiga, DEL, SEL).

EDIT. And you could probably throw Cze Extraliga into the mix aswell...

EDIT. And you could probably throw Cze Extraliga into the mix aswell...

Probably should, since they were ahead of Sweden, Switzerland, and Germany in the IIHF's domestic league rankings for 2009-10. (http://www.iihf.com/en/home-of-hockey/news/news-singleview/browse/3/article/russian-league-tops-first-chl-ranking-1.html)

The 32-team Champions' League is an admirable goal, but I'm not sure European hockey is ready for that just yet. That requires the bigger leagues to compete against the second tier of first division leagues, which could result in little more than a series of massive blowouts. I definitely see the rationale behind it, though, and even have a calendar model for how the leagues can be scheduled around it.

If a fan places some of the European top league ahead of another he's probably just biased. You could throw some of the top teams from NLA, SM-Liiga, Elitserien and even DEL together, compare them and notice that there is not much difference between them - atleast not on paper. Frölunda, HIFK, Lions, Eisbären, Färjestad, Kärpät, Jokerit etc.very equal talent. On the other hand if we take the european club teams competitions into account the SEL is by far the worst league of these four (NLA, SM-Liiga, DEL, SEL).

EDIT. And you could probably throw Cze Extraliga into the mix aswell...

Pretty sure it's not like that. SEL team was in finals of last big competition.

Pretty sure it's not like that. SEL team was in finals of last big competition.

Pre-season exhibition tournament don't - ofcourse - count.

The only problem I have with the IIHF ranking is that Slovakia should probably be behind NLA and DEL, it's also pretty questionable to place Cze Extraliga ahead of all three of SEL, NLA and DEL.

1. KHL
2. SM-Liiga
3. SEL/NLA
5. DEL/Cze Extraliga
7. SVK Extraliga

Perhaps something like this, if we factor in the previous success in the past european club competitions (again not counting the ET which was a practise tournament)..?

When ranking like that, take into account that for swedish teams ET isn't really such a serious tournament (probably isn't for other countries aswell, I don't know.) hence the low attandence numbers.
The teams included in the ET isn't always the best either (for instance, Malmö plays in Allsvenskan.. )


If it's a closed league, I'm against it.
A lot of teams with large fanbases will suffer enormously if not included.
Ofc I'm particulary against it as my team is currently in the lead in SEL and have a fairly good shot at winning the gold, but we have almost no shot at joining the league because others have already bought themselves in.

I for one would be very interested in this kind of league, my favourite team is Djurgårdens IF and ive followed them closely for over 12 years (less as of late). However i think attendances in sweden would go up with competition being harder.

As for ppl saying people wont want to travel accros europe for games i think its bs, even in the US where most NHL teams are situated (and where hockey is probably 4th in team sport popularity after MLB, NFL and the NBA) ppl do travel to road games and the arenas are filled almost all the time. I mean im sure atleast a couple of ppl from Atlanta would travel to vancouver to se their team play. The Airline companies would probably find out a game to capitalize on this with cheap flights from stockholm to prague or vice versa if DIF would face off vs Sparta Prague. And since 60% of the games would still be played vs other swedish teams or maybe in Oslo/helsinki wich is very close still, away games wouldnt be to awkward.

I would definatly visit more home games if we were in a more competitive league and i had the chance to se my team play a big team from Czech rep/slovakia.

Then we come to the hockey ecquivalent to UEFA champions league it has been done allrdy with massive failure since the tournaments have had litte significance. Even in football (soccer) the UEFA champions league has been reformatted a few times (group stages/qualifying rounds) and early stages of the tournament have been under consideration aswell since they dont draw alot attention at all and in the group stages there has always been a "bad" team in the groups of the group stages with very unfair matchups.

With a pan european league with the same league structure as the NHL/KHL with shared profits etc eventually teams would get more even after time (hopefully) and the league would become competitive. At the start the swedish/swiss/czech/finnish teams would probably have some advantage wich would hopefully even out as the league evolves, but im sure ppl in Salzburg wouldnt mind seing their team face off against one of the swedish/finnish teams on a somewhat regular basis.

The KHL got off to a rough start but i think (im not following the KHL more then check the scores in the newspaper so correct me if im wrong) the league is getting more and more stable and attendance is going up.

The biggest issue with this pan european league as i can see is the different taxes in the different countries (and tax laws). This combines with salary cap would mean that highest earners in different divisions wouldnt be getting as much money (lets face it, athletes are often greedy, some exceptions ofc) and this would lead to the best players prefering divisions where they earn the most, i.e keep more money from taxes.


wall of text but atleast i got my two cents out there :)

When ranking like that, take into account that for swedish teams ET isn't really such a serious tournament (probably isn't for other countries aswell, I don't know.) hence the low attandence numbers.
The teams included in the ET isn't always the best either (for instance, Malmö plays in Allsvenskan.. )


If it's a closed league, I'm against it.
A lot of teams with large fanbases will suffer enormously if not included.
Ofc I'm particulary against it as my team is currently in the lead in SEL and have a fairly good shot at winning the gold, but we have almost no shot at joining the league because others have already bought themselves in.

im guessing you are talking about SAIK (skellefteå), and if this would happen i sure hope SAIK is a team that follows, very enjoyable to watch.

Too many playoffs, keep the Elitserien or merge it with the SM-Liiga. The majority don't want to see Linköping vs Salzburg or Köln. I am not even sure if people would want to see Frölunda vs HIFK... :S

That's a sign of shortsighted thinking imo. At the present a Linköping - Salzburg matchup wouldn't be that interesting to many people, sure. But if those two teams contained guys like Ovechkin, Zetterberg, Stamkos and Chara? Different story. The whole thing is that a united European league could provide salaries (and unlike the KHL: living standards and administrative competence) that could compete with the NHL, and thus it could attract players on a whole different level.

That's a sign of shortsighted thinking imo. At the present a Linköping - Salzburg matchup wouldn't be that interesting to many people, sure. But if those two teams contained guys like Ovechkin, Zetterberg, Stamkos and Chara? Different story. The whole thing is that a united European league could provide salaries...that could compete with the NHL, and thus it could attract players on a whole different level.

I understand the reasoning, but if it was that 'easy', a united European league would already exist. Remember the European Hockey League? Failed. Champions Hockey League? Failed. It's a nice idea, but does it really work? Big question mark. Competing with the NHL in terms of salary? Even bigger question mark. Teams like the Canadiens, the Maple Leafs, the Flyers, the Rangers, the Red Wings etc. draw attandances of 18 000 - 22 000 for no less than 41 home games. In Canada, hockey has hardly any competition for sponsor money. But Europe? As long as Great Britain, France, Spain, Italy and Germany (in total 315 Mio inhabitants) keep preferring Football, hockey will have a difficult stand. Sweden, Finland, the Czech Republic and Switzerland combine for a mere 33 Mio inhabitants - that's not enough to compete with football.

I'm against this one. You don't need something over national championships. Like mentioned travel times would be so time consuming that not many would attend these games. Also where's the rivalry? I doubt this thing has a long - if any - future at all.

So better focus on national tournaments.


Travel in europe would be easier than Vancouver-Tampa for example

They will probably be better rivalries than Phoenix-Washington for example

Also, I think there may be a point with being the best in Germany, or striving to dominate (western)Europe

I doubt that an european league will ever happen. for sure, it would be interesting but who gonna watch it?
club Tournaments like CHL have a low attendance. (except from the quarterfinal to the finals)
for example sc bern
during the swiss league, they never have under 14'000 visitors
during the chl, the highest attendance was around 7'200
that's a lot of important money to lose.
an other thing is the "travel metality". the most countries in europe are small. a trip over 4 hours is very long for us.
the only revality i see are: czech - slovakia, sweden-finnland, german speaking teams: germany, austria, switzerland (from the german speaking part)
momentarly, an european league will damage more the interest in hockey than make it better. :shakehead:

I understand the reasoning, but if it was that 'easy', a united European league would already exist. Remember the European Hockey League? Failed. Champions Hockey League? Failed. It's a nice idea, but does it really work? Big question mark. Competing with the NHL in terms of salary? Even bigger question mark. Teams like the Canadiens, the Maple Leafs, the Flyers, the Rangers, the Red Wings etc. draw attandances of 18 000 - 22 000 for no less than 41 home games. In Canada, hockey has hardly any competition for sponsor money. But Europe? As long as Great Britain, France, Spain, Italy and Germany (in total 315 Mio inhabitants) keep preferring Football, hockey will have a difficult stand. Sweden, Finland, the Czech Republic and Switzerland combine for a mere 33 Mio inhabitants - that's not enough to compete with football.

A European league needs to be more sponsor driven than attendance driven, when it comes to economy. And to get that done you need UK, France, Italy and Germany (forget about Spain) in the league with a minimum of one team each.

On top of that you do of course need the more established hockey countries in, even if they do not contribute very much to the economy of the league (33 million habitants as mentioned). One should also count in some other minor countries as Austria, the Baltic countries, Slovakia (Slovenia and Poland, the latter not small could also be considered).

I for one would love an European league, with better quality when it comes to the players. I hardly follow the SEL very much these days as I don't find it interesting enough.

im guessing you are talking about SAIK (skellefteå), and if this would happen i sure hope SAIK is a team that follows, very enjoyable to watch.
(Late reply)
I took Skellefteå as an example because it's close to my heart but it could be any other club.
If you close the league, peoples interest in watching SEL,Allsvenskan and such would diminish. The fans of the teams in the lower leagues would not start to cheer for a different team in the new league either because they used to have them as rivals. The whole thing just ends up decreasing peoples interest in hockey.

I doubt that an european league will ever happen. for sure, it would be interesting but who gonna watch it?
club Tournaments like CHL have a low attendance. (except from the quarterfinal to the finals)
for example sc bern
during the swiss league, they never have under 14'000 visitors
during the chl, the highest attendance was around 7'200
that's a lot of important money to lose.
an other thing is the "travel metality". the most countries in europe are small. a trip over 4 hours is very long for us.
the only revality i see are: czech - slovakia, sweden-finnland, german speaking teams: germany, austria, switzerland (from the german speaking part)
momentarly, an european league will damage more the interest in hockey than make it better. :shakehead:
Are you so sure? My favourite FEL teams longest trip is like 6 hour (they usually dont use charater flights, they go with buss). Imagine if Roki (Rovaniemi) raised to SM-Liiga and played a road game against IFK Helsinki, the trip would be something like 830km. That could happen as rovaniemi is big city enough to be in SM-Liiga. They actually do those trips in their current league, wich is finnish second league mestis.

The trips wouldnt be a problem as they arent problem now. They would go with planes allways and thats about it.

I really love the idea of pan-european league and I always smile when I read European fans whining about trips of 4 hours that are tiring.... when I imagine "Amur" in the KHL flying 14 hours or so to play LEV Poprad.

I dot think there'd be any difficulty to place a team in London, as an example. I believe lots of Canadians and other people (including Latvians) who love hockey live there... If you promote the hell out of it, people will come... in the first season of Dinamo "Minsk", in their old arena and with people sceptical about the KHL, there were attendance on average at 2500 or so.... now they're regularly selling out their 15 000 arena... Just because they started to advertize, made going to a hockey game a very pleasant experience... and the team plays well this year.

Why not in Paris? Buy some Franco-Canadians, give out fans vine for free :D, buy some guys like in "Vityaz" to entertain them with fights... Maybe the same KHLs Milan could be an option....

The problem with other top European leagues is that they seem more and more to become like not only NHL but also KHL feeders... every year to guys from the leagues leave to either NHL or KHL to earn more money and play better hockey and, until other European leagues are small and Russia has gas and oil, nothing will change... NHL takes the cream and KHL all good that's left...

I look at top 7 Elitserien scorers of last year... and none of them play in the league anymore... Ritchie, the only Canadian, is in the NLA, other six NHL/KHL.... Looks to me like the GMs in those two leagues just look at the top scorer list of Elitserien after the season and say... which one we'll pick?

In contrast, only Jagr left KHL.... guy who'll be 40 next year... and RIP Vasichek and Demitra. But Thornberg and Petruzalek/Vrana were added to the usual bunch.

I really love the idea of pan-european league and I always smile when I read European fans whining about trips of 4 hours that are tiring.... when I imagine "Amur" in the KHL flying 14 hours or so to play LEV Poprad.

I would correct you.. Amur does not fly direct to Poprad, they play game in Moscow or so before moving to Slovakia. Generally you are right, of course

I really love the idea of pan-european league and I always smile when I read European fans whining about trips of 4 hours that are tiring.... when I imagine "Amur" in the KHL flying 14 hours or so to play LEV Poprad.

I dot think there'd be any difficulty to place a team in London, as an example. I believe lots of Canadians and other people (including Latvians) who love hockey live there... If you promote the hell out of it, people will come... in the first season of Dinamo "Minsk", in their old arena and with people sceptical about the KHL, there were attendance on average at 2500 or so.... now they're regularly selling out their 15 000 arena... Just because they started to advertize, made going to a hockey game a very pleasant experience... and the team plays well this year.

Why not in Paris? Buy some Franco-Canadians, give out fans vine for free :D, buy some guys like in "Vityaz" to entertain them with fights... Maybe the same KHLs Milan could be an option....

The problem with other top European leagues is that they seem more and more to become like not only NHL but also KHL feeders... every year to guys from the leagues leave to either NHL or KHL to earn more money and play better hockey and, until other European leagues are small and Russia has gas and oil, nothing will change... NHL takes the cream and KHL all good that's left...

I look at top 7 Elitserien scorers of last year... and none of them play in the league anymore... Ritchie, the only Canadian, is in the NLA, other six NHL/KHL.... Looks to me like the GMs in those two leagues just look at the top scorer list of Elitserien after the season and say... which one we'll pick?

In contrast, only Jagr left KHL.... guy who'll be 40 next year... and RIP Vasichek and Demitra. But Thornberg and Petruzalek/Vrana were added to the usual bunch.

Hockey in London will not work at this time or at that particular level. The fan base isn't really there. Comparing it to Minsk seems strange, since Belarus has much better hockey support and has a President who is heavily investing in it, plus Belarus has very close links with Russia politically, socially and economically, meaning it was a natural choice for the KHL.

No large scale fan base for hockey exists in London. Relying on Canadians and tourists isn't really a successful business model. The registered number of players in London is tiny and in a City so diverse in culture and things to do, Hockey isn't exactly a priority. If hockey is struggling in Moscow to an extent, then imagine hockey in a bigger, more vibrant, richer environment with no history of the sport. It doesn't make any sense.

You build hockey from the grass roots up. I don't see the sport being popular in the UK in the forseeable future, but if it is to be popular, you don't do it from the Top-down. You build roots, facilities and the passion before the big show.

I don't think i wish to see a Pan-European league. It can only serve to kill the game in Europe IMO. By creating such a league, you invariably create a small "elite". Any team left outside the elite and the league becomes somewhat pointless. Domestic leagues outside of the "Elite European league" becomed watered down, uninteresting and the clubs have nothing to strive for ; they begin to stop developing talent and building a hockey community in the area. It can only serve to kill hockey domestically for those who aren't involved in the Elite league. Creating this mega league doesn't develop ice hockey in Europe, it only serves to undermine it.

The KHL should IMO focus on it's sphere of influence. Consolidate hockey in Russia (MHL etc, create better balance of teams) whilst having strong relations with former Soviet Satellite states enabling them to build their programmes up. Latvia, Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan can strongly profit from the KHL if investment is done correctly and management decides to actually manage. Perhaps Poland, Croatia etc can also in the future have a stronger relation with the KHL. But i don't see the need for the KHL to expand into Sweden, Finland or non hockey markets like the UK. It doesn't make sense for the KHL who should concentrate on solidfying their own vested interests and it won't work in these markets for a multitude of reasons.

I agree with J17 I'm against it. SEL is already based about developing and rivalry so I don't think we would benefit from it.

Outside of the NHL we are already are very good league so no need risking that for another elite of the elite league with all the disadvantages it would bring.

I agree with J17 I'm against it. SEL is already based about developing and rivalry so I don't think we would benefit from it.

Outside of the NHL we are already are very good league so no need risking that for another elite of the elite league with all the disadvantages it would bring.

How about SM-Elitserien (finnish-swedish league)? Could be interesting.

How about SM-Elitserien (finnish-swedish league)? Could be interesting.

For sure. There would be somewhat rivalries between the Swedish and Finnish teams by default.

For sure. There would be somewhat rivalries between the Swedish and Finnish teams by default.

Think so too thats something more realistic, could lead to some great rivalries.

How about SM-Elitserien (finnish-swedish league)? Could be interesting.

It would be a good start at least. Teams would need to fly, but that isn't uncommon, at least not for for Swedish teams.

http://www.internationalhockey.net/teamlogos/finland/finland_map.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Elitserien_Ishockey_Karta.jpg
(Södertälje out, Växjö in)


8 teams from each country could make a good league. Then one could treat the 8 teams from each country as conferences in order to make the travelling less frequent with one team from each country in the finals. I do not think it is necessary to mimic the divisions, but that could be done too, with 4 teams in each.

8 teams from each country could make a good league. Then one could treat the 8 teams from each country as conferences in order to make the travelling less frequent with one team from each country in the finals. I do not think it is necessary to mimic the divisions, but that could be done too, with 4 teams in each.

Even though Malmö isn't that good right now, there's NO WAY there would be hockey league in Europe with Swedish teams where they aren't included.

The market is big (even though MFF rules the city) and they have Swedens best in-door-arena.

If such league would happen, I'd like to have more than 8 teams for each country. Probably 10-12.

These Finnish teams would probably be part of the said league:
HIFK
Jokerit
Kärpät
Ilves
Tappara
TPS
Pelicans
Kalpa
Ässät
JYP
Lukko
HPK

I'd be thrilled if there was a Swedish-Finnish league some day.

Sadly, it'll never happen.

This is about as likely as finland giving sweden 12 points in eurovision song contest

I read somewhere that Espoo Blues could be sell to some russians.. any info? is it possible?

This is about as likely as finland giving sweden 12 points in eurovision song contest

:huh: I thought that it happens almost every year.

:huh: I thought that it happens almost every year.

I think usually Sweden gets 6 points from Finland (or whatever the first one they announce is), but the joke is that Sweden usually send artists that provide some claim to the rumors in Finland about how their western neighbours consist only of gay males. :sarcasm:

I'd really like a cross-european league (with a team in London for example, etc), but I'm not too thrilled about a swedish-finnish league. Wouldn't mind it if it happened though.

I think usually Sweden gets 6 points from Finland (or whatever the first one they announce is), but the joke is that Sweden usually send artists that provide some claim to the rumors in Finland about how their western neighbours consist only of handsome males. :sarcasm:

fixed

I'd really like a cross-european league (with a team in London for example, etc), but I'm not too thrilled about a swedish-finnish league. Wouldn't mind it if it happened though.

This strikes me as very odd, care to elaborate?

I think all country leagues should still be the same, but introduce something like the UEFA in futbal.

The winners of the top 6 countries
1. Russia
2. Switzerland
3. Germany
4. Finland
5. Sweden
6. Czech Republic

While the last 2 would be winners of the smaller leagues that play sort of wild card games. Kind of like the qualifying playoff rounds to get to the group stages in UEFA. Example: Norway, Denmark, Italy, Austria, etc.

7. Winner of Western Europe stage
8. Winner of Eastern Europe stage

Then have random drawings and play single game elimination playoffs. I would do this after every season.

I think all country leagues should still be the same, but introduce something like the UEFA in futbal.

The winners of the top 6 countries
1. Russia
2. Switzerland
3. Germany
4. Finland
5. Sweden
6. Czech Republic

While the last 2 would be winners of the smaller leagues that play sort of wild card games. Kind of like the qualifying playoff rounds to get to the group stages in UEFA. Example: Norway, Denmark, Italy, Austria, etc.

7. Winner of Western Europe stage
8. Winner of Eastern Europe stage

Then have random drawings and play single game elimination playoffs. I would do this after every season.

Hell, even rugby has two Euro competitions. Surely hockey can figure out how to have at least one.

Hell, even rugby has two Euro competitions. Surely hockey can figure out how to have at least one.

They did have something like the group stage, but due to the economy disaster of 2-3 years ago they had to cancel it.

I think all country leagues should still be the same, but introduce something like the UEFA in futbal.

The winners of the top 6 countries
1. Russia
2. Switzerland
3. Germany
4. Finland
5. Sweden
6. Czech Republic

While the last 2 would be winners of the smaller leagues that play sort of wild card games. Kind of like the qualifying playoff rounds to get to the group stages in UEFA. Example: Norway, Denmark, Italy, Austria, etc.

7. Winner of Western Europe stage
8. Winner of Eastern Europe stage

Then have random drawings and play single game elimination playoffs. I would do this after every season.

Wasen't there something similare, but noone cared and it was shut down after 1 or 2 years?

Edit: just read your second post.

Hockey can't be compared to other sports in that regard. SEL is about rivalries and seeing young homegrown talents developing into top guys so I really don't know what point a european league would have and to be honest wouldn't interest me at all.

Something like some cross games against SIM teams are a different story and way easier to accomplish.