Development Fights

Is it normal that fights take place on the develpment Camps?


can you post some YT's ???


thanks

Greenop in a fight at a Blackhawks prospect camp.

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There have been plenty of others over the years.

Aliu.

FL8FGKCxZJo

Yes, it is normal, these players are at these camps to show coaches what they can do and if fighting is part of why they got to this point in their careers so be it.

I don't really agree with it, but whatever

They're normal. Players are literally fighting for a roster spot and to show the coaches and organization that they'll do anything to make the team. It's not like these guys are fighting established veterans who are definitely making the team. They're fighting others competing for that same roster spot. There's usually no bad blood in these type of fights.

I don't really agree with it, but whatever

Why not?

I saw this brought up in another place that these fights are something new which is a complete falsehood. Anyone ever see the Rocket? They had Richard throw down in his first camp to show how tough he was. I also dont buy the argument that these guys are teammates. Most of these guys have never played together in their lives. In some cases they have plaid against each other.

It's the dumbest idea imaginable for a "development" camp. If I were an anti-fighting critic (which I'm not) this would be the first thing I'd point to as evidence that fighting is an artificial element in the NHL and not necessary to the sport.

If a young player is tough enough to fight, that is established long before he is drafted. You can pretty much type a guy's name into Youtube and know what he does when the gloves come off. There's no need at all for him to demonstrate that during a practice drill like some kind of Gladiator wannabe. Staged fights during camp is just incredibly stupid and dangerous, and done for all the wrong reasons.

I don't really agree with it, but whatever

It's the dumbest idea imaginable for a "development" camp. If I were an anti-fighting critic (which I'm not) this would be the first thing I'd point to as evidence that fighting is an artificial element in the NHL and not necessary to the sport.

If a young player is tough enough to fight, that is established long before he is drafted. You can pretty much type a guy's name into Youtube and know what he does when the gloves come off. There's no need at all for him to demonstrate that during a practice drill like some kind of Gladiator wannabe. Staged fights during camp is just incredibly stupid and dangerous, and done for all the wrong reasons.

I was lucky enough to be in a training camp a few years ago with a minor league team, and you have to realize these guys don't treat this like "practice." They take it just as seriously as any other game, and when they get hit hard, or one of their teammates gets hit hard or a guy is acting up, they're gonna fight same as any other game. The coaches even at that level know the guys are tough, that's why they invite them to camp or sign them, but it doesn't stop them from wanting to try another guy out and see what he's got, and when they get heated they do what they'd do in any other game, they drop the gloves.

You can argue the whole time that it's a little different at the NHL level where the prospects and young guys are more well known in their organizations, but they're still hockey players all the same and if they wanna go, they're gonna go. Some camps have a no fighting rule, others don't, and some just don't have any scraps at all.

The coaches even at that level know the guys are tough, that's why they invite them to camp or sign them, but it doesn't stop them from wanting to try another guy out and see what he's got, and when they get heated they do what they'd do in any other game, they drop the gloves.


What I am talking about is staged fighting. There's something seriously wrong with a player approaching tryouts with the mentality that he's going to go fight someone to impress the coaches. This is what people mean when they compare the NHL to the WWF, and for once I can't argue against them because this is obviously not a natural part of the sport.

What I am talking about is staged fighting. There's something seriously wrong with a player approaching tryouts with the mentality that he's going to go fight someone to impress the coaches. This is what people mean when they compare the NHL to the WWF, and for once I can't argue against them because this is obviously not a natural part of the sport.

The players don't see it that way. Even if they don't need to do it to get noticed they want to anyway because that's their game and they like to do it and they wanna see what the other guy's got. That's just how they look at it. One of the fights in the Cap's camp was because a player was injured from a hit. His teammate went after the guy that hit him. Just because a fight looks "staged" doesn't always mean it is.

I'm just gonna leave it there though because this quickly and easily becomes one of those circular arguments where neither of us convinces the other to come around to their side.

I was lucky enough to be in a training camp a few years ago with a minor league team, and you have to realize these guys don't treat this like "practice." They take it just as seriously as any other game, and when they get hit hard, or one of their teammates gets hit hard or a guy is acting up, they're gonna fight same as any other game. The coaches even at that level know the guys are tough, that's why they invite them to camp or sign them, but it doesn't stop them from wanting to try another guy out and see what he's got, and when they get heated they do what they'd do in any other game, they drop the gloves.

You can argue the whole time that it's a little different at the NHL level where the prospects and young guys are more well known in their organizations, but they're still hockey players all the same and if they wanna go, they're gonna go. Some camps have a no fighting rule, others don't, and some just don't have any scraps at all.

Great post and welcone to the site. It is great to get a players view of this. I dont think your arguement will make much headway with some. There is a strong anti fighting sentiment here for some reason.

Our first attempt at having a section of the site dedicated to the fights was even shut down because most threads no matter what the topic was usually degenerated into a pro or anti fighting debate that has been done a million times.

The players don't see it that way. Even if they don't need to do it to get noticed they want to anyway because that's their game and they like to do it and they wanna see what the other guy's got. That's just how they look at it. One of the fights in the Cap's camp was because a player was injured from a hit. His teammate went after the guy that hit him. Just because a fight looks "staged" doesn't always mean it is.

I'm just gonna leave it there though because this quickly and easily becomes one of those circular arguments where neither of us convinces the other to come around to their side.See what I mean Bro, there is a strong anti fighting sentiment here that isnt going to hear your arguement no matter how you put it. They dont even care that you have been in a camp and know how it is. They dont want to even listen to another viewpoint.:shakehead

Im pretty sure the Blues banned fighting at their camps, and if they didnt, I dont ever remember a fight at any of their camps in years past. I think itd be stupid to not ban them, because of both the chance for injury, and the risk of liability of some prospect breaking his hand at your camp. There was always some pushing and shoving, but an actual dropping of the gloves never happened.

Im pretty sure the Blues banned fighting at their camps, and if they didnt, I dont ever remember a fight at any of their camps in years past. I think itd be stupid to not ban them, because of both the chance for injury, and the risk of liability of some prospect breaking his hand at your camp. There was always some pushing and shoving, but an actual dropping of the gloves never happened.

You're right, they ban them. It screws with the actual fighters, but it's smart all around.

What I am talking about is staged fighting. There's something seriously wrong with a player approaching tryouts with the mentality that he's going to go fight someone to impress the coaches. This is what people mean when they compare the NHL to the WWF, and for once I can't argue against them because this is obviously not a natural part of the sport.

What about guys who are drafted as fighters/enforcers? How else do they showcase how they can do in their roles? I think there is nothing wrong with a "staged fight" between 2 enforcers.

I also don't mind fights that happen in the heat of the moment while playing hockey. Like the Aliu fight posted above. That type of stuff happens in games at every junior/pro level so why is it a problem if it happens in a development camp where prospects are play hockey?

What I don't like are "fights" like the Beach/Ohlund fight. I don't think it's coincidence that if that happened in an NHL game (lunatic going after much smaller non fighter) we'd all be up in arms about it too.

Bottom line, let the kids play hockey, and fights happen in hockey.

At the tournie's yes, but it doesn't seem to be that normal during intra-squad stuff.

What about guys who are drafted as fighters/enforcers? How else do they showcase how they can do in their roles? I think there is nothing wrong with a "staged fight" between 2 enforcers.

I just think that's a ridiculous way to run a camp. You know before you draft the enforcer what he can do in his role... that's why you drafted an enforcer in the first place! You don't need to see him pound somebody, but you DO need to know what he can do while on a regular shift. If that guy is out there cracking his knuckles on a teammate's skull when it doesn't even matter, I want him as far away from my team as possible.

I also don't mind fights that happen in the heat of the moment while playing hockey.

I don't mind that either, but that's a once-in-a-blue-moon event between teammates. On the rare chance that it happens, sure, let 'em go. But it certainly isn't something that should happen multiple times in one camp.

IMO, a guy that can't get through a development camp without getting in a fight is probably not ready to be a professional player. It's a sign of immaturity on his part and a sign of some really poor leadership from the coaching staff if they encourage it.

I know the Oilers are going with a young team but this is ridiculous.

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The way this kid sheds the mitts is gold.

What I am talking about is staged fighting. There's something seriously wrong with a player approaching tryouts with the mentality that he's going to go fight someone to impress the coaches. This is what people mean when they compare the NHL to the WWF, and for once I can't argue against them because this is obviously not a natural part of the sport.

Thats the way my cousin approached his tryouts for Juniors. Got in 2 fights in a period, during the intermission they gave him a contract.

Thats the way my cousin approached his tryouts for Juniors. Got in 2 fights in a period, during the intermission they gave him a contract.

We're talking about an NHL camp here. Again, no offense to your cousin but if he showed up to an NHL camp with that mentality I would say he wasn't ready to be a pro.

Im pretty sure the Blues banned fighting at their camps, and if they didnt, I dont ever remember a fight at any of their camps in years past. I think itd be stupid to not ban them, because of both the chance for injury, and the risk of liability of some prospect breaking his hand at your camp. There was always some pushing and shoving, but an actual dropping of the gloves never happened.

It depends on the coach, Andy Murray didnt want the boys fighting and we will have to see about Davis Payne, I hope he allows it. Murray is the only coach that I can remember banning them for the Blues.

The first time they had the main camp at the main rink Quenville was the coach and there were a lot of fights. Reed Low and JeremY Yablonski had the best one of the camp.

When Brian Sutter was coach and the camps were at Brentwood Ice Rink you would lose count on the fights.

I dont know how far back you go but the only coach since Sutter for sure that banned the fighting was Murray

Thats the way my cousin approached his tryouts for Juniors. Got in 2 fights in a period, during the intermission they gave him a contract.

That is how Junior hockey works, anyone that knows about major junior tryouts knows this but you are going to have a rough time convincing the anti fighting crowd around these parts of that no matter how many facts you throw at them.

Best of luck to your cousin as he tries to work his way up the ladder.

We're talking about an NHL camp here. Again, no offense to your cousin but if he showed up to an NHL camp with that mentality I would say he wasn't ready to be a pro.

If his cousin plays a rugged game and from the description that he gave we can presume that he does, if he gets invited to a pro camp he better play with a rugged mentality and fight or he will have no shot at winning a job. If that is what gets you there you dont quit doing it.

The Blue Jackets and Maple Leafs have also told players not to fight during camps.

If his cousin plays a rugged game and from the description that he gave we can presume that he does, if he gets invited to a pro camp he better play with a rugged mentality and fight or he will have no shot at winning a job. If that is what gets you there you dont quit doing it.

He's either good enough to make the NHL, or he is not. Dropping the gloves with some guy during a scrimmage isn't going to change a smart GM's mind about his value to the team.

He's either good enough to make the NHL, or he is not. Dropping the gloves with some guy during a scrimmage isn't going to change a smart GM's mind about his value to the team.If fighting is part of the kid's game you dont think fights in a camp can change a GM's opinion of the kid? that is part of the reason he brought the kid in, you are delusional if you dont think fights effect how GM's look at players who have that role as part of their game.

If fighting is part of the kid's game you dont think fights in a camp can change a GM's opinion of the kid? that is part of the reason he brought the kid in, you are delusional if you dont think fights effect how GM's look at players who have that role as part of their game.

If fighting is a part of his game, that's established before he ever shows up to camp. There is literally nothing to prove in that department by fighting teammates in front of the coaches. It shows nothing new about his game, and subtracts from his ability to show off his hockey skill (not to mention the risk of completely unnecessary injury).

And bear in mind that I said a "smart GM".

We're talking about an NHL camp here. Again, no offense to your cousin but if he showed up to an NHL camp with that mentality I would say he wasn't ready to be a pro.

Lucic got into 3 or 4 fights in his first camp from what I remember... I dont think he made the team for his offensive brilliance. If he doesnt do that.. i doubt he makes the team out of camp.

If fighting is a part of his game, that's established before he ever shows up to camp. There is literally nothing to prove in that department by fighting teammates in front of the coaches. It shows nothing new about his game, and subtracts from his ability to show off his hockey skill (not to mention the risk of completely unnecessary injury).

And bear in mind that I said a "smart GM".

Teammates? hardly any of these guys have ever been on the same ice.

Lucic got into 3 or 4 fights in his first camp from what I remember... I dont think he made the team for his offensive brilliance. If he doesnt do that.. i doubt he makes the team out of camp.

Lucic was a 2nd rounder who was a ppg with 150 PIM in junior. You think they didn't know he could fight and play?

He made the team because he's an extremely effective power forward with a mean streak, not because the coaches suddenly realized he could play in the NHL after he beat up a few teammates.

If fighting is a part of his game, that's established before he ever shows up to camp. There is literally nothing to prove in that department by fighting teammates in front of the coaches. It shows nothing new about his game, and subtracts from his ability to show off his hockey skill (not to mention the risk of completely unnecessary injury).

And bear in mind that I said a "smart GM".All due respect you just dont get it. When you are brought in to a camp you play the way you have played to get invited to the camp. A player isnt going to change that and a "smart GM" as you keep saying knows why he brings a player into camp and doesnt expect him to change the way he plays.

Teammates? hardly any of these guys have ever been on the same ice.He doesnt get it, and nothing is going to change his mind. I am done going in circles with this guy. I guess the fact that Lucic could fight had no bearing on the Bruins drafting him.:shakehead

He's either good enough to make the NHL, or he is not. Dropping the gloves with some guy during a scrimmage isn't going to change a smart GM's mind about his value to the team.

Unless they need an Enforcer..

I know some people don't like fighting in hockey, but it's part of the game..

No smart GM is going to put together a team compiled of no one who can fight.. Star players have liberities taken on them when the opposing cheap shot artist is assured he won't be held responsible physically for his actions.

All due respect you just dont get it. When you are brought in to a camp you play the way you have played to get invited to the camp. A player isnt going to change that and a "smart GM" as you keep saying knows why he brings a player into camp and doesnt expect him to change the way he plays.

I'm sorry, that's just not a sufficient reason for players to stage fights during camp. I get the purpose of fighting, which is generally to settle a score or to protect a teammate. But in a development camp, where all you have are scrimmages and conditioning drills, there is absolutely no purpose behind it. They may as well be wearing spandex tights.

Two guys go hard into a corner and get in a scrum, fine. Two guys skate around looking for a partner, I'm sorry but GTFO and find a beer league.

I guess the fact that Lucic could fight had no bearing on the Bruins drafting him.:shakehead

AGAIN. The Bruins knew Lucic could fight before they drafted him. Do you seriously think they were unaware of that until they saw him fight in camp, and then they decided he was good enough to make them team? Come on.

Unless they need an Enforcer..

I know some people don't like fighting in hockey, but it's part of the game..

No smart GM is going to put together a team compiled of no one who can fight..

Don't let this c-carp character paint me as an opponent of fighting. I have no problem at all with it. I do have a problem with shenanigans like this during conditioning camp, especially when it ends up being a disaster like in the Hawks camp this year. That stuff just pours fuel on the anti-fighting fire because it's clearly a fight without a valid purpose.

No smart GM is going to put together a team compiled of no one who can fight.. Star players have liberities taken on them when the opposing cheap shot artist is assured he won't be held responsible physically for his actions.

Detroit has done pretty darn well the last couple of years despite Downey, D-Mac and May hardly playing at all during the play-offs.

Not that I mind fighting the least, it's a part of the game. Just not as big part of the game as it used to be. You're usually fine without a real enforcer in the NHL today.

He's either good enough to make the NHL, or he is not. Dropping the gloves with some guy during a scrimmage isn't going to change a smart GM's mind about his value to the team.

You are seriously reaching now.

Not everyone who is drafted to fill a role ends up doing making the team in that role.

It's time to give up.

You are seriously reaching now.

Not everyone who is drafted to fill a role ends up doing making the team in that role.

It's time to give up.

I'm not reaching at all if a minimum of 3 NHL coaching staffs agree with me. Or are you going to call Ron Wilson and Andy Murray, and tell them to "give up" on their crazy ideas?

It's really very straightforward -- a planned fight during conditioning camp has no value for the coaches. It's like the talent-show contestants who keep singing after they've already been rejected. They heard it worked for someone once, now every two-bit hack thinks it's a strategy.

It depends on the coach, Andy Murray didnt want the boys fighting and we will have to see about Davis Payne, I hope he allows it. Murray is the only coach that I can remember banning them for the Blues.

The first time they had the main camp at the main rink Quenville was the coach and there were a lot of fights. Reed Low and JeremY Yablonski had the best one of the camp.

When Brian Sutter was coach and the camps were at Brentwood Ice Rink you would lose count on the fights.

I dont know how far back you go but the only coach since Sutter for sure that banned the fighting was Murray

Development camps, not actual training camp. Payne ran the development camp last year, and there was no fighting.

I'm sorry, that's just not a sufficient reason for players to stage fights during camp. I get the purpose of fighting, which is generally to settle a score or to protect a teammate. But in a development camp, where all you have are scrimmages and conditioning drills, there is absolutely no purpose behind it. They may as well be wearing spandex tights.

Two guys go hard into a corner and get in a scrum, fine. Two guys skate around looking for a partner, I'm sorry but GTFO and find a beer league.



AGAIN. The Bruins knew Lucic could fight before they drafted him. Do you seriously think they were unaware of that until they saw him fight in camp, and then they decided he was good enough to make them team? Come on.



Don't let this c-carp character paint me as an opponent of fighting. I have no problem at all with it. I do have a problem with shenanigans like this during conditioning camp, especially when it ends up being a disaster like in the Hawks camp this year. That stuff just pours fuel on the anti-fighting fire because it's clearly a fight without a valid purpose.

You arre the one making yourself sound like an anti fighting person with your posts. Getting into a Twist about two people throwing down in a development camp.

You arre the one making yourself sound like an anti fighting person with your posts.

You mean the parts where I repeatedly say I am not an opponent of fighting?

Yeah, that makes me sound like a hardcore pacifist :shakehead

Aliu.

FL8FGKCxZJo

more like:

mcneely.

kid was giving up 30+ and 4 inches and landed probably the 2 best shots of the fight.

rick rypien in the making lol!

Development camps, not actual training camp. Payne ran the development camp last year, and there was no fighting.


That could have been because of Murray, we dont have development camps right now so who knows what Payne would have allowed. I hope he allows fights in the main camp.

You mean the parts where I repeatedly say I am not an opponent of fighting?

Yeah, that makes me sound like a hardcore pacifist :shakehead

You say you like the fights and then repededly blast development camp fights, that sends a mixed message. You say you like the fights I have to take you at your word. it just doesnt come across that way in this thread. Several other posters have implied as much.

You say you like the fights and then repededly blast development camp fights, that sends a mixed message. You say you like the fights I have to take you at your word. it just doesnt come across that way in this thread. Several other posters have implied as much.

No it doesn't. Fighting in hockey is great in it's place. Dropping them off the faceoff in a game of shinny in a summer conditioning camp that is usually intended to get prospects together to get an idea of what direction to steer them with their off-season, and to get them acclimatized to the environment so that they're not as tight when actual training camp comes around is pretty different than standing up for your teammate after an opponent goes after his knees, or dropping the gloves to get your team going at an important moment in the game.

No it doesn't. Fighting in hockey is great in it's place. Dropping them off the faceoff in a game of shinny in a summer conditioning camp that is usually intended to get prospects together to get an idea of what direction to steer them with their off-season, and to get them acclimatized to the environment so that they're not as tight when actual training camp comes around is pretty different than standing up for your teammate after an opponent goes after his knees, or dropping the gloves to get your team going at an important moment in the game.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Fighting during a development camp is nothing but a cheap and selfish stunt by inferior players who need the attention. It has nothing at all to do with the legitimate purpose of fighting in the sport, which is for protection oneself and one's teammates.

No it doesn't. Fighting in hockey is great in it's place. Dropping them off the faceoff in a game of shinny in a summer conditioning camp that is usually intended to get prospects together to get an idea of what direction to steer them with their off-season, and to get them acclimatized to the environment so that they're not as tight when actual training camp comes around is pretty different than standing up for your teammate after an opponent goes after his knees, or dropping the gloves to get your team going at an important moment in the game.


I respectfully disagree with you and Tar heel on this. If fightng is allowed in any kind of camp,coaches and management are saying to their players who play a physical game to do what they do. If they didnt want them fighting they would impose that stupid anti fighting rule that some coaches choose to do.

Aliu.

FL8FGKCxZJo

Lil man's got balls. Sick fight.

maybe it shouldnt be normal..

another interesting question is 'are they ever initiations?'




maybe its all just a little old fashioned and unhealthy

I couldn't have said it better myself. Fighting during a development camp is nothing but a cheap and selfish stunt by inferior players who need the attention. It has nothing at all to do with the legitimate purpose of fighting in the sport, which is for protection oneself and one's teammates.

can you really 'develop' a culture of fighting without completely delegitimizing it?

can you really 'develop' a culture of fighting without completely delegitimizing it?

That's a good question.

People who want to keep fighting in the game generally agree that its legitimate purpose is self-protection, especially to balance out a cheapshot in a way that the on-ice officials are incapable of doing on their own. Basically it boils down to deterrence and retribution, similar to the capital punishment debate.

It's also generally accepted that such fights are spontaneous or semi-spontaneous in nature... not staged, and not done for reasons of self-promotion.

When a team starts to develop a fighting culture, like the Flyers did in the '70s, it's a legit question whether that's a legitimate part of the sport of hockey. You had guys like Bobby Clarke running around knocking your best player's teeth out on purpose, and then if he had enough strength fight about it Dave Schultz would step in and pummel him all over again. Is that really part of the sport? Good question, I'm leaning toward "no" but willing to hear out an argument. At least it was a game-related strategy.

But I feel pretty certain that having goons stage fights during a conditioning camp is NOT hockey. Nothing about it remotely relates to winning a game, settling a score or protecting your players. It's just indefensible for coaches to sit back during a conditioning camp and watch a bunch of teenagers wailing on each other because they think they might get paid at the end, and not have anything to say about it.

What I am talking about is staged fighting. There's something seriously wrong with a player approaching tryouts with the mentality that he's going to go fight someone to impress the coaches. This is what people mean when they compare the NHL to the WWF, and for once I can't argue against them because this is obviously not a natural part of the sport.

Greenop certainly wasn't invited to training camp for his hockey skills.

Greenop certainly wasn't invited to training camp for his hockey skills.

Training camp is a month away.

I was talking a couple of years ago, when he was Blackhawk property.

I love this story.

http://wchablog.blogspot.com/2007/09/greene-avenges-bina.html

I love this story.

http://wchablog.blogspot.com/2007/09/greene-avenges-bina.html


Great article and thanks for posting, some of these meatheads here will still ***** and moan though because the story involves a development camp fight.:cry: They wont be happy until the NHL eliminates fighting and adopts women's hockey rules. the league will have to build bigger rinks then I guess because the tree huggers will flock to the rinks in droves.

Wait for the Prospect tourney in Traverse City and the other few that go on in the NHL. This is when the prospects really show whose tough and are always willing to fight. I wish they would broadcast traverse city again

Great article and thanks for posting, some of these meatheads here will still ***** and moan though because the story involves a development camp fight.:cry: They wont be happy until the NHL eliminates fighting and adopts women's hockey rules. the league will have to build bigger rinks then I guess because the tree huggers will flock to the rinks in droves.

What are you even talking about?

What are you even talking about?
Go up to fytinsioux post and click on the link. there is a great article about a fight in a devolopment camp that the Edmonton Oilers had. The rest of that post was just directed at the anti fightng element that exists here in great numbers.

Wait for the Prospect tourney in Traverse City and the other few that go on in the NHL. This is when the prospects really show whose tough and are always willing to fight. I wish they would broadcast traverse city again

I wish the would televise that tourney again as well. Although there would probably be 300 post threads about how those fights were meaningless and just wasted everyones time at that tourney.