How much rope does Burke have left?

I think Burke's job is very safe for now, but it could change VERY quickly over the next 8-10 months. I think this next season is make or break for both he and Wilson (and Schenn, ... but I digress).

Key's to keeping his job safe:

1) There MUST be some resolution on Kaberle. Either a trade or extension THIS SUMMER. If there is no Kaberle deal, no extension, and he walks as a UFA then Burke's dropped the ball in a huge way.

2) Leafs MUST finish outside of a top 10 pick next season. Compounding on the potential lack of a top 6 forward due to not moving Kaberle (see #1), this is not out of the realm of possibility. Leafs could finish close to last again, landing Boston another top 5 pick. I love Kessel, but this would be disastrous.

I think even if...
Kabs just walks
the Leafs are in the bottom 3 again
Stalberg becomes ten times the player teeger ever was
and Bozak busts
and Kadri busts
and Gusty turns into the next Raycroft.

Then Burke still won't get fired.

a lot

If he's running low I'm sure he can walk to the nearest Canadian Tire and buy some more.

hopefully enough to hang Wilson if need be.

My biggest concern with Brian Burke is whether their personal friendship will be a detriment if the Leafs continue to flounder beyond Dec 2010 with Wilson as coach.

Correct me if I'm wrong but does he not have a 5 year mandate?

I believe he's a little over a year into it? Just reeeeeee-lllaaaaaaxxxxxxxx.

About tree fiddy

Burke isn't the problem at all and he has a long way to go before he could get canned, i mean Riccardi was along for how long and he only ever made the team worse.

Wilson on the other hand has to get it clicking this season or by the beginning of next.

The fact that you even mention Schenn in that sentence makes you lose all credibility! I mean God help us all if Schenn doesn't turn into nothing short of Jesus Christ as a 21 year old.

Just because of their lack of top 6 forwards doesn't gaurentee them a bottom 10 finish, it could happen but if the D and G play well then those chances are limited, plus theres a pretty big big chance that our young players improve as well. Look I know some of them are 24 and almost past there prime but what are you gonna do.:sarcasm:

He started the job a year and a half ago and already some fans are asking how much longer his tenure is going to be.

:facepalm:

Come on, Leaf Nation, you're better than that.

a lot

Literally came to post this^^^

He's got 2-3 seasons to show progress.

over 9000

I love when people say "we must finish out side a top 10 pick" or even a top 5 in some cases. That makes it seem like finishing between 18 and 24 is OK. Burke and the upper management don't care at all about the other 1st round pick. Brian main job is to get the team into playoffs and will deem that top priority, Not this playing not to loose, Draft pick protection complex people on here have.


As for Brian's security. He's got at least another year and a half or two years till he should feel any heat. People forget what a mess this team was 2 years ago, And look at the players he brought in. Also no one would want touch the job if MLSE fired a guy on year 2.5 of 5 on a 5-year contract, When their CEO said had complete and full autonomy the day he took the job.

I disagree with all of you. If Kabs walks and we finish bottom 3 next year, Burke's job will be in trouble. I'm not saying he will get fired, but it will be discussed and it will be a possibility, setting up a possible firing a year later.

These things take time to percolate.

How many years did JFJ get (3 years?)? Burke deserves at least 1-2 years more then JFJ. Considering we gave Burke a 5 year contract (if my memory serves me correctly) i dont think the pressure will start to really build until we havnt seen any improvement from a botom dweller by year 4. Most people feel the leafs will improve this year....but i dont think that is saying a whole lot considering how bad we were.

Wilson on the other hand has to get it clicking this season or by the beginning of next.

I expected Wilson to bring to the table:


improved penalty killing
defensive system implemented


So far, no sign of either. He can claim it was a personnel problem. Team has been overturned.

I would hope that Wilson is now on the clock going forward with the tools his GM has provided.

Plenty. He's only in his second year and he's still got a coaching change he can make if things go badly. Of course I refer to the rope given by management, not the fans -- many of whom wanted Burke gone long ago already.

He's got extra 50 Mana points

So very much sire.

He is the big boss hogg in this whole game of hockey. He will dominate rear ends in Toronto for years to come. Years. I kind of love that there.

Burke will also be making some huge moves for this organization and it's all good hearted.

Ron Wilson is the one who's on a short leash, keep in mind that regardless of their personal friendship, Brian Burke did not hire him. So he isnt tied to him and could let him go if the team gets off to another slow start.

I disagree with all of you. If Kabs walks and we finish bottom 3 next year, Burke's job will be in trouble. I'm not saying he will get fired, but it will be discussed and it will be a possibility, setting up a possible firing a year later.

These things take time to percolate.

I agree with you. I think Burke should have been put on a very short leash after that gross overpayment to get Kessel. I don't give a rat's a$$ about honour, to pay anything more than what was required as per an offer sheet is purely idiotic. Tallon and Yzerman have done more their respective clubs in a matter of weeks than what Burke has accomplished in a year and a half. Personally, I did not like the hiring of Burke as he is living off his reputaton rather than any true success (forget the Anaheim cup as he was not the architect of that).

What he inherited was not as bad as what he has built. The game has changed significantly post lockout and successful teams are built on youth, speed and thru the draft. Granted, the Phaneuf trade looks good as we landed the biggest name but his play has slide significantly the past few seasons and his turnaround is what will make that deal a success or bust.

The top-6 forwards do not scare me as much as the defense and goaltending which is grossly over-rated by most Leaf fans. Not sure if it is the players, coach, system or a combination of all things but for such a highly vaunted defense, the results should have been better.

Regardless, Wilson will be the scapegoat this season and unless this team over achieves, he'll be amongst the first coaches fired this season. Rightfully so as he has alienated the players, media and fans in typical Ron Wilson fashion.

So very much sire.

He is the big boss hogg in this whole game of hockey. He will dominate rear ends in Toronto for years to come. Years. I kind of love that there.

Burke will also be making some huge moves for this organization and it's all good hearted.

Welcome back!

So very much sire.

He is the big boss hogg in this whole game of hockey. He will dominate rear ends in Toronto for years to come. Years. I kind of love that there.

Burke will also be making some huge moves for this organization and it's all good hearted.

I agree. Leafs need some continuity so the plan does not keep changing every couple of years. JFJ: kept the costs down but lost sight of the goal. Leafs need somebody who can stand up to Peddie et al and do what is right for hockey, not necessarily the pension plan (albiet who would argue that Leafs as winners would be even more valuable than Leafs as losers).

I love the changes Burke has made thus far. I do not want to see him gone.

Ron Wilson is the one who's on a short leash, keep in mind that regardless of their personal friendship, Brian Burke did not hire him. So he isnt tied to him and could let him go if the team gets off to another slow start.

I believe a thorough examination would demonstrate Burke had significant influence on Wilson's hiring. Let's not be naive folks.

dude, Burke isn't going to be fired.

Welcome back!

I felt my IQ rising lately. I'm glad it's about to come back down to earth a bit.

At the very least two more seasons.

I believe a thorough examination would demonstrate Burke had significant influence on Wilson's hiring. Let's not be naive folks.

To be honest, I don't think that Burke is that unethical.

However, I can believe that Leafs hired Wilson because they knew he was a friend of Burke's and that they were going to try to hire Burke. But I do not think they went to Burke and asked him who he'd like as a coach or anything like that.

i think leafs' nation puts all its focus on the gm more than fans of any other team. its odd, but its almost like burke is bigger than the team itself. i think that's exactly how he likes it. most threads and posts talk about burke much more than they talk about the leafs.

anyways, he doesn't want this to take 5 years. he's gunning for the stanley cup next season in 2011-2012. if he doesn't have a stanley cup ring with the leafs two years from today, i think he'll either be fired or he'll quit.

A bottom 5 finish will most certainty guarantee his and Wilsons departure.

I agree with you. I think Burke should have been put on a very short leash after that gross overpayment to get Kessel. I don't give a rat's a$$ about honour, to pay anything more than what was required as per an offer sheet is purely idiotic. Tallon and Yzerman have done more their respective clubs in a matter of weeks than what Burke has accomplished in a year and a half. Personally, I did not like the hiring of Burke as he is living off his reputaton rather than any true success (forget the Anaheim cup as he was not the architect of that).

What he inherited was not as bad as what he has built. The game has changed significantly post lockout and successful teams are built on youth, speed and thru the draft. Granted, the Phaneuf trade looks good as we landed the biggest name but his play has slide significantly the past few seasons and his turnaround is what will make that deal a success or bust.

The top-6 forwards do not scare me as much as the defense and goaltending which is grossly over-rated by most Leaf fans. Not sure if it is the players, coach, system or a combination of all things but for such a highly vaunted defense, the results should have been better.

Regardless, Wilson will be the scapegoat this season and unless this team over achieves, he'll be amongst the first coaches fired this season. Rightfully so as he has alienated the players, media and fans in typical Ron Wilson fashion.

What has Yzerman done that was so great, has he signed 3 of the best goalie prospects not drafted(Gus, Rynnas, Scrivens), did he sign the most sought after College center available(Bozak), did he bring in a potential franchise Dman for nearly nothing(Phaneuf), did he sign another sought after College FA(Hanson), did he sign a high potential big winger Euro UFA(Mueller)? Even if the Leafs did offer sheet Kessel they still wouldn't have their 1st rounder smart ass!

About the Anaheim thing, Burke actually completely revamped the defense and brough in some pretty good forwards when he was there. He was the one that got Neids, Pronger, Beauch, Marchant(sp?), Moen, Phalsson etc.

I have no idea if you've been living in a cave or not, but the Leafs have the 2nd/3rd youngest team in the league and a lot of our young guys are pretty damn fast(Bozak, Kessel, Kulemin, Versteeg, Grabo etc). As for why our D seemed to play horribly last year, do you not remember who our #1 goalie was, well once he was traded our PK vastly improved as well as our goals against and our record overall!

I agree with you. I think Burke should have been put on a very short leash after that gross overpayment to get Kessel. I don't give a rat's a$$ about honour, to pay anything more than what was required as per an offer sheet is purely idiotic. Tallon and Yzerman have done more their respective clubs in a matter of weeks than what Burke has accomplished in a year and a half. Personally, I did not like the hiring of Burke as he is living off his reputaton rather than any true success (forget the Anaheim cup as he was not the architect of that).
So true, Tallon and Yzerman haven't lost a game yet. No one!

It would have been idiotic for Boston to accept the offer sheet compensation and let Kessel go.

Wow, some people.... :rolleyes: Guys and gals Burke will NOT be fired. He's the best GM the Leafs had in a long time!!!

anyways, he doesn't want this to take 5 years. he's gunning for the stanley cup next season in 2011-2012. if he doesn't have a stanley cup ring with the leafs two years from today, i think he'll either be fired or he'll quit.


If Burke is wearing a Leafs' Stanley Cup ring after the 2011-12 season, I will start repenting because there just might be something to that 12/21/12 scuttlebutt. Damn Mayans!

It's going to take a long run of abject failure before Burke is fired. He came to town with too much credibility.

It's only going to take another bad start before the media and fans start leaning on him hard.

Think it's too soon? It would be too soon if he wasn't in such a hurry to create a playoff team. Whether for a young player or not, pretty much every move Burke has made has been about expediting playoff qualification. If fans are impatient, he has no one to blame but himself for raising expectations.

Now, will this team have some success in the upcoming season? Tough to predict but here are some things to consider:

Why should the offense be improved this season? Hagman, Stajan, Stempniak, Blake and Ponikorovsky are out from last season, veterans in are Versteeg and none-too-prolific Armstrong. Any improvement in the team's offense must come from young players who have little to no history of getting the job done at the NHL level.

Why should the goaltending be improved? Anaheim didn't get rid of Giguere because he was still awesome. He has had issues in the past few seasons. He played well for the Leafs after the trade but that was in a stretch of games not unlike last season runs by Aubin and Toskala in other seasons. Gustavsson is a sophomore, he could be better, he could play worse, there's no guarantee.

Will the team's atrocious team defense be improved? This is the area I really believe has a chance to improve substantially. Burke has purged out most of the old for new blood who should be listening to their coach. But will they be any good at team defense? Some of the defensively suspect forwards are gone (Stalberg, Ponikarovsky, Stempniak, Blake) but some still remain (Kessel, Grabovski, Mitchell). Can players like Kulemin, Bozak, Kadri, Armstrong, Versteeg be catalysts for greatly improved team defense?

The team's defense will be theoretically improved but is Burke seriously going to trade Kaberle and ice a team so many offensively challenged defensemen? With Kaberle gone, a huge weight offensively will be on Phaneuf's back.

About tree fiddy

It's that damn Lochness Monster again!

He got us Phaneuf for scraps. That much rope.

He has plenty of time left.

MLSE is a business and they aren't going to pay a guy 3 million a year for nothing if they can help it.

He can keep claiming he is cleaning up the mess even though the roster has turned over and he gave away some more first rounders.

Ron Wilson is the one who should be polishing up his resume if the Leafs don't show some improvement in their young players this year.

He got us Phaneuf for scraps. That much rope.

For scraps and Ian White.

For scraps and Ian White.

Ian White is what a 4-5 at best on a good team?

If Phaneuf comes even close to his old form this will be a steal up there with Gilmour.

I expected Wilson to bring to the table:


improved penalty killing
defensive system implemented


So far, no sign of either. He can claim it was a personnel problem. Team has been overturned.

I would hope that Wilson is now on the clock going forward with the tools his GM has provided.

I was a big fan of Wilson coming in but he has dissapointed me so far. Maybe it was the personnel and I'm willing to wait and see what he does with this group of players before I make a judgment on him either way.

He got us Phaneuf for scraps. That much rope.

Look, I love the Phaneuf trade. But to keep it real, Burke did give up about 60 goals/year to get us Dion. There are still huge holes that must be filled quickly to avoid another horrible season.

Ian White is what a 4-5 at best on a good team?

If Phaneuf comes even close to his old form this will be a steal up there with Gilmour.
phaneuf has a long, long ways to go to get there.

Ian White is what a 4-5 at best on a good team?

If Phaneuf comes even close to his old form this will be a steal up there with Gilmour.

Sure, but Ian White was the only guy I wish we didn't give up. But for Phaneuf, Sjostrom and Aulie. Wow. I think the trade is already a huge steal.

I agree with you. I think Burke should have been put on a very short leash after that gross overpayment to get Kessel. I don't give a rat's a$$ about honour, to pay anything more than what was required as per an offer sheet is purely idiotic. Tallon and Yzerman have done more their respective clubs in a matter of weeks than what Burke has accomplished in a year and a half. Personally, I did not like the hiring of Burke as he is living off his reputaton rather than any true success (forget the Anaheim cup as he was not the architect of that).

What he inherited was not as bad as what he has built. The game has changed significantly post lockout and successful teams are built on youth, speed and thru the draft. Granted, the Phaneuf trade looks good as we landed the biggest name but his play has slide significantly the past few seasons and his turnaround is what will make that deal a success or bust.

The top-6 forwards do not scare me as much as the defense and goaltending which is grossly over-rated by most Leaf fans. Not sure if it is the players, coach, system or a combination of all things but for such a highly vaunted defense, the results should have been better.

Regardless, Wilson will be the scapegoat this season and unless this team over achieves, he'll be amongst the first coaches fired this season. Rightfully so as he has alienated the players, media and fans in typical Ron Wilson fashion.

I pitty the fool who thinks this team isn't better then the team Burke Inherited. GRRRRR

phaneuf has a long, long ways to go to get there.

He just turned 25 and put up 60 points only 2 seasons ago. And 47 points 1 season ago.

Look, I love the Phaneuf trade. But to keep it real, Burke did give up about 60 goals/year to get us Dion. There are still huge holes that must be filled quickly to avoid another horrible season.

This is the thing. Most of those players weren't going to be resigned anyways.

I'm happy to endure a couple of horrible seasons as long as we are building up legitimate prospects and young players so that we end up better.

The problem is every time someone starts a rebuild in Toronto they get 1/2 done before they start bandaiding the lineup with poor signings and trades to get back to the playoffs.

Lets see it through this time. JFJ didn't have the chance because he didn't have a contract to remove the board from meddling.

Burke does.. so I say.. take our time and do it right.

I agree with you. I think Burke should have been put on a very short leash after that gross overpayment to get Kessel. I don't give a rat's a$$ about honour, to pay anything more than what was required as per an offer sheet is purely idiotic. Tallon and Yzerman have done more their respective clubs in a matter of weeks than what Burke has accomplished in a year and a half. Personally, I did not like the hiring of Burke as he is living off his reputaton rather than any true success (forget the Anaheim cup as he was not the architect of that).

What he inherited was not as bad as what he has built. The game has changed significantly post lockout and successful teams are built on youth, speed and thru the draft. Granted, the Phaneuf trade looks good as we landed the biggest name but his play has slide significantly the past few seasons and his turnaround is what will make that deal a success or bust.

The top-6 forwards do not scare me as much as the defense and goaltending which is grossly over-rated by most Leaf fans. Not sure if it is the players, coach, system or a combination of all things but for such a highly vaunted defense, the results should have been better.

Regardless, Wilson will be the scapegoat this season and unless this team over achieves, he'll be amongst the first coaches fired this season. Rightfully so as he has alienated the players, media and fans in typical Ron Wilson fashion.

I always love how a guy can change 75% of his roster (literally) and go from 24th to 1st in a year and a half and yet he is "not the architect of that".

It's not like he traded away his top 5 scorers and built the entire defense (including 3 25+ minute per game d-men) and had only 6 players left from the roster he inherited or anything. :sarcasm: But yeah, Burke had nothing to do with that.

If Sather can last 10 years in New York with his boneheaded signings and trades and Milbury lasted about the same amount of time, Burke, who really has done nothing wrong outside of working on his timelines, not the fans (thank GOD because we would have fired him after about a month), has a LONG rope.

I agree with you. I think Burke should have been put on a very short leash after that gross overpayment to get Kessel. I don't give a rat's a$$ about honour, to pay anything more than what was required as per an offer sheet is purely idiotic. Tallon and Yzerman have done more their respective clubs in a matter of weeks than what Burke has accomplished in a year and a half. Personally, I did not like the hiring of Burke as he is living off his reputaton rather than any true success (forget the Anaheim cup as he was not the architect of that).

What he inherited was not as bad as what he has built. The game has changed significantly post lockout and successful teams are built on youth, speed and thru the draft. Granted, the Phaneuf trade looks good as we landed the biggest name but his play has slide significantly the past few seasons and his turnaround is what will make that deal a success or bust.

The top-6 forwards do not scare me as much as the defense and goaltending which is grossly over-rated by most Leaf fans. Not sure if it is the players, coach, system or a combination of all things but for such a highly vaunted defense, the results should have been better.

Regardless, Wilson will be the scapegoat this season and unless this team over achieves, he'll be amongst the first coaches fired this season. Rightfully so as he has alienated the players, media and fans in typical Ron Wilson fashion.
Burke added all 6 starting Dmen the teams top scorer and 2/3 of their shut down line.
More than 2/3 of the players on the cup winning team in Anaheim weren't playing on the team before Burke took over.
He certainly was the architect of that team.

If Sather can last 10 years in New York with his boneheaded signings and trades and Milbury lasted about the same amount of time, Burke, who really has done nothing wrong outside of working on his timelines, not the fans (thank GOD because we would have fired him after about a month), has a LONG rope.

The fan base wouldn't have fired him, because we cant agree on anything around here.

A Leafs GM could trade Finger for Stamkos and people would still find a way to complain about it.

Burke added all 6 starting Dmen the teams top scorer and 2/3 of their shut down line.
More than 2/3 of the players on the cup winning team in Anaheim weren't playing on the team before Burke took over.
He certainly was the architect of that team.

Yeah, I really don't know why this myth that Burke inherited a Cup-winning team and didn't do much to it persists. I still see people claiming this all the time.

All you have to do is make a list of the players before and after and the truth becomes apparent.

I pitty the fool who thinks this team isn't better then the team Burke Inherited. GRRRRR

You do remember the team's record last season? How many changes has Burke made this summer?

Yeah, I really don't know why this myth that Burke inherited a Cup-winning team and didn't do much to it persists. I still see people claiming this all the time.

All you have to do is make a list of the players before and after and the truth becomes apparent.
Because it gives ammo to the Leaf hatters and sometimes others will pick up on it and quote it without doing any research themselves to see if its true.

Look, I love the Phaneuf trade. But to keep it real, Burke did give up about 60 goals/year to get us Dion. There are still huge holes that must be filled quickly to avoid another horrible season.

Thats true... but I found that alot of those goals were really cause it was there season too shine.. Stajan and Hagman were like playing really good and it would of ended in a nice Contract for a lot of money

I think Burke gets a lot of rope, as others have said in different threads, say what you want about Burke-but he's considered a highly respected and Competent GM through the League. If you go and fire Burke 2 or 3 even three years into his tenure, forget about getting a quality GM for the Leafs in the near future of his standing. Wilson will go long before Burke does.



If Leafs burn this year, Wilson is gone. The next season he would at least 1-2 years to make it work with a new coach IMO.

So at least 3 more years IMO, which would put him into year 4-5 of a (7?) year contract.

Yeah, I really don't know why this myth that Burke inherited a Cup-winning team and didn't do much to it persists. I still see people claiming this all the time.

All you have to do is make a list of the players before and after and the truth becomes apparent.

He inherited the goalies (Giguere, Bryzgalov), the 2 inexpensive young star forwards (Getzlaf and Perry) and several other key forwards (McDonald, Penner, Kunitz and Pahlsson). That amounts to the Conn Smythe winner and the team's 6 of 7 top scoring forwards. No, Burke built the team from scratch.

More than you.

You do remember the team's record last season? How many changes has Burke made this summer?

If you're going to use the Leafs record last year to make a point then you need to take into consideration the team that began the year as well. The poor record was mainly due to the first half of the season. Therefore how many changes have occured since the beginning of last season. THIS IS A COMPLETLELY DIFFERENT TEAM.

You do remember the team's record last season? How many changes has Burke made this summer?

Maybe you should look at ALL the changes he made since he got here(too many to mention) and not just this summer. Then compare the team rosters from when he arrived to this year and if you still feel that this years team is not better then the one he Inherited then I really dont know what to tell you.:shakehead

Burke Rope >>> Wilson Rope

Fletcher's boy better be on the short rope.

He inherited the goalies (Giguere, Bryzgalov), the 2 inexpensive young star forwards (Getzlaf and Perry) and several other key forwards (McDonald, Penner, Kunitz and Pahlsson). That amounts to the Conn Smythe winner and the team's 6 of 7 top scoring forwards. No, Burke built the team from scratch.

Make the lists. Look at them.

He inherited the goalies (Giguere, Bryzgalov), the 2 inexpensive young star forwards (Getzlaf and Perry) and several other key forwards (McDonald, Penner, Kunitz and Pahlsson). That amounts to the Conn Smythe winner and the team's 6 of 7 top scoring forwards. No, Burke built the team from scratch.

Not to mention they were extremely lucky that Pronger became available for cheap.

Make the lists. Look at them.

You do it yourself. That team doesn't win the Cup without most of those 8 players he inherited. That team also doesn't win the Cup without the HofF defensemen he added. But to imply he did more than finish off something that started before he arrived is as delusional as suggesting he did nothing but inherit a championship team.

Make the lists. Look at them.

Burke signed a UFA Niedermayer, but hasn't been able to get a comparable UFA to sign in Toronto.

Pronger's wife took him to Anaheim. ;)

Selanne loves Anaheim.

Giguere was already there.

Burke in Vancouver could not land a goaltender.

Burke signed a UFA Niedermayer, but hasn't been able to get a comparable UFA to sign in Toronto.

Pronger's wife took him to Anaheim. ;)

Selanne loves Anaheim.

Giguere was already there.

Burke in Vancouver could not land a goaltender.

It's probably true that he couldn't land a goaltender but publicly it did seem like he thought Cloutier was the answer when everyone knew he wasn't.

No doubt about it in Anaheim Burke picked the wrong horse in Cloutier. He didn't build the ducks entirely but he did acquire all six of those blueliners so he does deserve credit.


Anyhow if you include the lockout year (which I will since there was still an offseason before and after), JFJ was hired in summer 2003 and fired in early 2008. so we'll say 4 years. Ludicrous to think that Burke could get less time given the fact that JFJ made the team weaker in the short term AND the long term.

If every last thing goes wrong, Burke gets fired at the end of the 4th year. Wilson may be on the hot seat if they miss again this year.

The problem that I see for Burke is if this team still blows by year 4 (for example) he's going to get major heat and fired because he didn't build through the draft. It will be a media frenzy. They will make an example out of Burke and the Leafs: This is what happens when you take YET another shortcut.

If this team sucks by March of this year - Wilson will be let go. No doubt.
------
Burke is more than likely feeling the pressure to trade Kaberle...more than any pressure he's ever felt before.

No doubt about it in Anaheim Burke picked the wrong horse in Cloutier. He didn't build the ducks entirely but he did acquire all six of those blueliners so he does deserve credit.


Anyhow if you include the lockout year (which I will since there was still an offseason before and after), JFJ was hired in summer 2003 and fired in early 2008. so we'll say 4 years. Ludicrous to think that Burke could get less time given the fact that JFJ made the team weaker in the short term AND the long term.

If every last thing goes wrong, Burke gets fired at the end of the 4th year. Wilson may be on the hot seat if they miss again this year.

First of all it was in Vancouver where he "picked the wrong horse" in Cloutier. Burke did a stellar job in Anaheim and brought in the likes of Pronger, Niedermeyer, Beauchimen, May/Parros (instrumental in the playoffs that year), resigned Selanne to a million point six (1.6), shed the team of wanted baggage like Federov, signed Hiller (free wallet),drafted Ryan, hired Carlyle and there's even more to tout about. I was living on the westcoast at the time the Ducks were on the rise.... Burke had a huge influence on building that team. You can go on and on about Perry and Getzlaf but they were 4th liners when Burke took over the team...and nothing to write home about... Additionally - they were supporting cast in the 2007 cup victory but NOT the main pieces... Secondary scoring....was there role. Mcdonald/Selanne line were the main offensive threat... pahlsson/moen/rob niedermeyer shutdown line was instrumental during that run...

Which brings me to my main point and some of you guys forget this but Burke is not JFJ! Thus - Burke is suppose to be the savior here. The expectations on Burke are way way way higher than they were ever on JFJ. Thus, stop comparing the two. Just because JFJ got 4 years has nothing to do with how long or short Burke's tenure will be.


JFJ was a puppet , he took the fall for MLSE's mismanagement of assets. Cliffy messed around too with his finger, stempniak and hagman acquisitions. Thus - it's a huge mess... and even higher expectations. Welcome to the Maple Leafs.

Burke has a history of trading assets before they develop - it bit him in the behind in Vancouver, hope it doesn't do the same to him in Toronto. Only time will tell.

As an outsider, Burke hasn't fired one coach yet, thats usually a sign of a general manager whos job is safe, if you forget he hasn't been with the team very long. I think he has five years of rope left.

You do remember the team's record last season? How many changes has Burke made this summer?

You're arguing that because Burke didn't overhaul this roster over the summer, this team sucks worse than JFJ's team when Burke took over?

Quit trying to move the goalposts.

You can go on and on about Perry and Getzlaf but they were 4th liners when Burke took over the team...and nothing to write home about... Additionally - they were supporting cast in the 2007 cup victory but NOT the main pieces... Secondary scoring....was there role. Mcdonald/Selanne line were the main offensive threat... pahlsson/moen/rob niedermeyer shutdown line was instrumental during that run...

Huh? Getzlaf led the Ducks in playoff scoring the year they won the Cup. Perry tied for 2nd.

I wonder if the people on here complaining that Burke should have a short rope were the same ones complaining that JFJ made a bunch of reactionary, short term, disastrous trades.

Burke's job is completely safe. Beyond safe. Carved in stone. When he gets tired of being GM in a few years, he will become simply President, and he will bring in the GM. He is here as long as he wants to stay, probably until he retires, and he will be the face of the franchise for 20 years. This is a VERY good thing, because it puts a respected and honourable hockey man in charge who also understands the business side of the business.

If the team slumps, or (heaven forbid) regresses, he will still be here, making changes, building the scouting staff, building the coaching staff and building a winning culture. He's the man. He's in charge. He is not being evaluated by a trade, or how well a prospect develops.

This is a good thing, because that's how you build a winner.

I guarantee you the suits at Teachers, who know what strong executive leadership looks like in their many investments, are delighted with the presence and management acumen of Brian Burke.

He's not going anywhere. Period. Rope is not relevent. He holds the rope, it's not around his neck.

You're arguing that because Burke didn't overhaul this roster over the summer, this team sucks worse than JFJ's team when Burke took over?

I'm simply saying that they were the 29th team in the NHL in 2009-10 and he has made very few changes this summer. I'm simply raining on the parade of wholly unjustified optimism.

Quit trying to move the goalposts.
The only goalposts being moved are the ones that determine whether Burke has had even the slightest amount of success with this club to date.

2006-07: 40-31-4-7, 91pts
2007-08: 36-35-7-4, 83pts
2008-09: 34-35-6-7, 81pts
2009-10: 30-38-10-4, 74pts

The club has clearly been on a decline before AND since Burke took over.

I wonder if the people on here complaining that Burke should have a short rope were the same ones complaining that JFJ made a bunch of reactionary, short term, disastrous trades.

Burke's job is completely safe. Beyond safe. Carved in stone. When he gets tired of being GM in a few years, he will become simply President, and he will bring in the GM. He is here as long as he wants to stay, probably until he retires, and he will be the face of the franchise for 20 years. This is a VERY good thing, because it puts a respected and honourable hockey man in charge who also understands the business side of the business.

If the team slumps, or (heaven forbid) regresses, he will still be here, making changes, building the scouting staff, building the coaching staff and building a winning culture. He's the man. He's in charge. He is not being evaluated by a trade, or how well a prospect develops.

This is a good thing, because that's how you build a winner.

I guarantee you the suits at Teachers, who know what strong executive leadership looks like in their many investments, are delighted with the presence and management acumen of Brian Burke.

He's not going anywhere. Period. Rope is not relevent. He holds the rope, it's not around his neck.

Wow. Brian, is that you?

I'm simply saying that they were the 29th team in the NHL in 2009-10 and he has made very few changes this summer. I'm simply raining on the parade of wholly unjustified optimism.


The only goalposts being moved are the ones that determine whether Burke has had even the slightest amount of success with this club to date.

2006-07: 40-31-4-7, 91pts
2007-08: 36-35-7-4, 83pts
2008-09: 34-35-6-7, 81pts
2009-10: 30-38-10-4, 74pts

The club has clearly been on a decline before AND since Burke took over.

You're trying to cut out all of the moves that have been performed since JFJ was fired, so that you can say adding Versteeg and Armstrong doesn't improve the team much past what we had at the end of last year, and then so you can say that since JFJ's teams had better records, they were better. You're trying to cut out the other improvements made to the team since then, including Kessel, Phaneuf, Giguere, moving out Poni, and so on.

You do it yourself.


I'm not the one that needs to -- I've already seen the two lists, which is why I know I'm right about this and you're wrong. The problem you have here is that I've never denied he inherited several players, but you're trying to belittle Burke's contribution which is ridiculous.


That team also doesn't win the Cup without the HofF defensemen he added. But to imply he did more than finish off something that started before he arrived is as delusional as suggesting he did nothing but inherit a championship team.

I like how you tried to give credit for getting HOF defencemen and at the same time still dismiss it as "finishing off" for the purposes of your argument. Nice.

You're trying to cut out all of the moves that have been performed since JFJ was fired, so that you can say adding Versteeg and Armstrong doesn't improve the team much past what we had at the end of last year, and then so you can say that since JFJ's teams had better records, they were better. You're trying to cut out the other improvements made to the team since then, including Kessel, Phaneuf, Giguere, moving out Poni, and so on.

I know this is going to hurt but here's the truth. Hold on tight:

1. Burke overpaid for Kessel.
2. Phaneuf should be a good acquisition, overpaid but the type of defenseman who leads teams to the Stanley Cup
3. Giguere has slipped greatly. Anaheim gave him away for garbage. Giguere's numbers in Anaheim were poor. Hiller's Save% was .920 compared to Giguere's 0.900. Giguere isn't going to be the answer to anything other than the trivia question about the last Conn Smythe winner to play for the Leafs.
4. Fans are soon going to see that Poni is probably a better player than Armstrong. Armstrong has never cracked 20 goals, ain't that tough just dirty and is easily neutralized with one punch to his face.
5. Versteeg is a good little player. Not a star forward, not an elite talent. He isn't terribly far off Nik Hagman.

I'm simply saying that they were the 29th team in the NHL in 2009-10 and he has made very few changes this summer. I'm simply raining on the parade of wholly unjustified optimism.
This is a bit of a sketchy comment. Bozak, DP, Sjostrom, Army, Versteeg, Giggy, Hanson, Brown, Gunnar, Lebda are all gearing up for their first full-seasons. That's 10 new players. Not exactly "very few changes" and it also assumes Kaberle will be back, Caputi will be in the minors and no other roster players will be signed

I wonder if the people on here complaining that Burke should have a short rope were the same ones complaining that JFJ made a bunch of reactionary, short term, disastrous trades.

Burke's job is completely safe. Beyond safe. Carved in stone. When he gets tired of being GM in a few years, he will become simply President, and he will bring in the GM. He is here as long as he wants to stay, probably until he retires, and he will be the face of the franchise for 20 years. This is a VERY good thing, because it puts a respected and honourable hockey man in charge who also understands the business side of the business.

If the team slumps, or (heaven forbid) regresses, he will still be here, making changes, building the scouting staff, building the coaching staff and building a winning culture. He's the man. He's in charge. He is not being evaluated by a trade, or how well a prospect develops.

This is a good thing, because that's how you build a winner.

I guarantee you the suits at Teachers, who know what strong executive leadership looks like in their many investments, are delighted with the presence and management acumen of Brian Burke.

He's not going anywhere. Period. Rope is not relevent. He holds the rope, it's not around his neck.

While that is very possible, I think once he is done being a GM, he will take Bettman's job

This is a bit of a sketchy comment. Bozak (8), DP (12), Sjostrom (3), Army (15), Versteeg (24), Giggy, Hanson (2), Brown (6), Gunnar (3), Lebda (1) are all gearing up for their first full-seasons. That's 10 new players. Not exactly "very few changes" and it also assumes Kaberle will be back, Caputi will be in the minors and no other roster players will be signed

I'd much rather be completely surprised than be foolish enough to believe that the above collection is so much better than Ponikarovsky (21), Blake (16), Stempniak (27), Mayers (3), Stajan (19), Primeau (3), Hagman (25), Exelby (1), Toskala and Wallin (2), Total Goals:117. Your new arrivals, total goals: 74 .

Perhaps in a few seasons some of the Leafs' youth (that's what I'm hoping for) will shine past the mediocrity of the Ferguson regime but many of those names mentioned are neither terribly new nor special, just space fillers.

Burke got a 6 year contract for a reason. he is safe. Wilson I can't say the same.

The problem you have here is that I've never denied he inherited several players, but you're trying to belittle Burke's contribution which is ridiculous.

It's up to you to do your wonderful list to your point. Don't make a point and refuse to back it up.

Anyways, I like to make one thing very clear. Maybe you're having trouble understanding me through the haze of Burke man-love, so I'll say it explicitly: Burke contributed to Anaheim's Stanley Cup. His contribution was about 40-50%. If you think that's belittling his contribution than I guess in turn you're belittling Murray's contribution.

If he's running low I'm sure he can walk to the nearest Canadian Tire and buy some more.

Is the Canadian Tire in Calgary? :sarcasm:

While that is very possible, I think once he is done being a GM, he will take Bettman's job

That could happen too. I suspect it depends on which one pays better.

But I think Burke will stay with the Leafs instead of going to Head Office because he likes to have a rooting interest.

If their record after january is any indication i think Burkie will be just fine

Burkie has about 15 Million worth of Rope left on his Contract, all Monies must be Paid in Full no Matter were the Finish.

It's up to you to do your wonderful list to your point. Don't make a point and refuse to back it up.

Anyways, I like to make one thing very clear. Maybe you're having trouble understanding me through the haze of Burke man-love, so I'll say it explicitly: Burke contributed to Anaheim's Stanley Cup. His contribution was about 40-50%. If you think that's belittling his contribution than I guess in turn you're belittling Murray's contribution.

Where are you coming up with that number though?

Half the players you say he inherited (Penner, Kunitz, MacDonald,...) were scrubs before Burke took over. Even Getzlaf and Perry had done nothing, and who knows, maybe they wouldn't have developed the same way if Burke wasn't there.

The entire defence was overhauled, and what about the players Burke got rid of to have capspace (Fedorov, Prospal, Sykora, Rucchin)?

The way Burke's work in Anaheim get dimished you would think that he took over the Pens with the 5 top-5 pick players. And the way Murray gets all this credit you would think he was a 1980's Glen Sather in Anaheim.

A lot of GM's start with something when they take over a team. The only one I can think that was mainly response for almost everything on the roster was Lou.

I know this is going to hurt but here's the truth. Hold on tight:

1. Burke overpaid for Kessel.
2. Phaneuf should be a good acquisition, overpaid but the type of defenseman who leads teams to the Stanley Cup
3. Giguere has slipped greatly. Anaheim gave him away for garbage. Giguere's numbers in Anaheim were poor. Hiller's Save% was .920 compared to Giguere's 0.900. Giguere isn't going to be the answer to anything other than the trivia question about the last Conn Smythe winner to play for the Leafs.
4. Fans are soon going to see that Poni is probably a better player than Armstrong. Armstrong has never cracked 20 goals, ain't that tough just dirty and is easily neutralized with one punch to his face.
5. Versteeg is a good little player. Not a star forward, not an elite talent. He isn't terribly far off Nik Hagman.

Armstrong scored 22 in 08-09, Just shows that you don't even know what you're talking about.

I think even if...
Kabs just walks
the Leafs are in the bottom 3 again
Stalberg becomes ten times the player teeger ever was
and Bozak busts
and Kadri busts
and Gusty turns into the next Raycroft.

Then Burke still won't get fired.

Exactly, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Burke and Wilson should be allowed to finish their contracts. If we terminate either of them before their deal ends, people will say we didn't give him a chance we didn't wait. So we have to swim or sink with Burke, even though we are gasping for breath right now.

It's up to you to do your wonderful list to your point. Don't make a point and refuse to back it up.

Anyways, I like to make one thing very clear. Maybe you're having trouble understanding me through the haze of Burke man-love, so I'll say it explicitly: Burke contributed to Anaheim's Stanley Cup. His contribution was about 40-50%. If you think that's belittling his contribution than I guess in turn you're belittling Murray's contribution.

What? There were 6 players from the roster he inherited on the championship team. He traded his top 5 scorers, assembled the entire D and added 3 Hall of Famers.

He inherited the goalies (Giguere, Bryzgalov), the 2 inexpensive young star forwards (Getzlaf and Perry) and several other key forwards (McDonald, Penner, Kunitz and Pahlsson). That amounts to the Conn Smythe winner and the team's 6 of 7 top scoring forwards. No, Burke built the team from scratch.

It's so easy it's a wonder the 24th place Murray didn't do it himself. Guess he just wanted out of a job!

:shakehead

He just turned 25 and put up 60 points only 2 seasons ago. And 47 points 1 season ago.
exactly. he hasn't been very good the last couple of years. he has a long way to go if he's going to return to the form we want to see. he's just living off his name on this board. hopefully he didn't peak at 21 - 22 years old.

It's up to you to do your wonderful list to your point. Don't make a point and refuse to back it up.


Nope, I'm not doing your work for you. You're the one claiming Burke merely "finished off" what Murray built based on incomplete information. I'm still waiting for you to consider the players Burke brought in or got rid of, instead of focusing on the ones he started with. So far you haven't done that. What about the brilliant Fedorov trade, for instance?


Anyways, I like to make one thing very clear. Maybe you're having trouble understanding me through the haze of Burke man-love, so I'll say it explicitly: Burke contributed to Anaheim's Stanley Cup. His contribution was about 40-50%. If you think that's belittling his contribution than I guess in turn you're belittling Murray's contribution.

I'm having no trouble whatsoever understanding you.

You're just wrong, that's all.

I wonder if the people on here complaining that Burke should have a short rope were the same ones complaining that JFJ made a bunch of reactionary, short term, disastrous trades.

Burke's job is completely safe. Beyond safe. Carved in stone. When he gets tired of being GM in a few years, he will become simply President, and he will bring in the GM. He is here as long as he wants to stay, probably until he retires, and he will be the face of the franchise for 20 years. This is a VERY good thing, because it puts a respected and honourable hockey man in charge who also understands the business side of the business.

If the team slumps, or (heaven forbid) regresses, he will still be here, making changes, building the scouting staff, building the coaching staff and building a winning culture. He's the man. He's in charge. He is not being evaluated by a trade, or how well a prospect develops.

This is a good thing, because that's how you build a winner.

I guarantee you the suits at Teachers, who know what strong executive leadership looks like in their many investments, are delighted with the presence and management acumen of Brian Burke.

He's not going anywhere. Period. Rope is not relevent. He holds the rope, it's not around his neck.Regresses??? He has got the Leafs to the 29th place....regressing shouldn't be a problem.....he is not near as safe as you think...

exactly. he hasn't been very good the last couple of years.


He had one bad season. Last year.


he has a long way to go if he's going to return to the form we want to see. he's just living off his name on this board. hopefully he didn't peak at 21 - 22 years old.

Yeah, we see that kind of thing all the time. Tons of defencemen score 50 points multiple times and are Norris finalists before they're 25, then simply drop off the map.

Burkie has about 15 Million worth of Rope left on his Contract, all Monies must be Paid in Full no Matter were the Finish.

*yawn*

[QUOTE=Volcanologist;27051692]He had one bad season. Last year.
no, he dropped off quite a bit in 08-09. wasn't really close to the player he was the year before that.

hopefully he'll get back to the norris candidate he once was, but he has a long way to go. he hasn't been close to that lately.

I'd much rather be completely surprised than be foolish enough to believe that the above collection is so much better than Ponikarovsky (21), Blake (16), Stempniak (27), Mayers (3), Stajan (19), Primeau (3), Hagman (25), Exelby (1), Toskala and Wallin (2), Total Goals:117. Your new arrivals, total goals: 74 .

Perhaps in a few seasons some of the Leafs' youth (that's what I'm hoping for) will shine past the mediocrity of the Ferguson regime but many of those names mentioned are neither terribly new nor special, just space fillers.
So now your point is they won't be good enough offensively, not that there hasn't been enough change to the team. Two different points, no? Seems like you were caught on a bad argument so now you've changed it.

As for the team, the GAA dropped severely once these changes happened. It's not just about goals, it's what you allow. We're a weaker offensive team, although Kessel with a summer of training and a healthy season should also improve the totals. As a young team, I expect growth from some of our key players. It's a legit concern that we won't score enough, claiming that there wasn't enough turnover is a different beast altogether.

Armstrong scored 22 in 08-09, Just shows that you don't even know what you're talking about.

Wooooo. I was wrong. He cracked 20 goals once. Don't be such a baby. Other fans are allowed to have less blind enthusiasm than you. Colby Armstrong ain't very tough, he's just dirty and sneaky. And when a tougher player gets in his face, he backs down. I've seen it. You'll see it next season. There are reasons why he was expendable in Pittsburgh and Atlanta.

no, he dropped off quite a bit in 08-09. wasn't really close to the player he was the year before that.

hopefully he'll get back to the norris candidate he once was, but he has a long way to go. he hasn't been close to that lately.

If 47 points is dropping off quite a bit, we have ourselves one hell of a defenceman.

If you're right and Phaneuf is simply an average player the rest of his career for some reason, then yes, the trade is a disaster. Even you must feel the chances of that are remote, though.

"Watershed year" Burke knows it and said it. If we don't make the playoffs Burke will have to fire Wilson! In T.O that would probably give Burkie another 2 years of trying with a new coach. If it fails from there he's gone with 1 year left on his contract...

So now your point is they won't be good enough offensively, not that there hasn't been enough change to the team. Two different points, no? Seems like you were caught on a bad argument so now you've changed it.

As for the team, the GAA dropped severely once these changes happened. It's not just about goals, it's what you allow. We're a weaker offensive team, although Kessel with a summer of training and a healthy season should also improve the totals. As a young team, I expect growth from some of our key players. It's a legit concern that we won't score enough, claiming that there wasn't enough turnover is a different beast altogether.

That there weren't enough changes was never my point. It's very simple. The team was still a bad hockey team at the end of the 2009-10 season and few changes have been made this summer to suggest that the team should miraculously turn around this fall. I know this is tough to hear. I didn't like it when I concluded it.

I'm having no trouble whatsoever understanding you.

You're just wrong, that's all.

Fortunately I read enough posts on this site in the past months to know that your agreement with opinion is hardly a necessity.

Burke will have more than just one more year, even if the team is mediocre again.

It's so easy it's a wonder the 24th place Murray didn't do it himself. Guess he just wanted out of a job!

:shakehead

Wait. I thought Burke was doing a good job? And that the team's 29th place finish shouldn't reflect on the future potential of the team?

Wow, some people.... :rolleyes: Guys and gals Burke will NOT be fired. He's the best GM the Leafs had in a long time!!!

Burke is probably the worst. I could not believe when he traded 2 1st rounders and a 2nd for a player who skates fast and has a good shot but is not a superstar. I was saying to all my friends the Leafs will still miss the playoffs last year (did not think they would finsish as low as they did, that took a level of pathetic play even I did not think they would acheive). Wake up Leaf fans, management have doomed us to mediocrity for the foreseeable future and Boston fans are going to be rubbing it in our faces.

Richard Peddie held a PC and announced to Leaf Nation Fans, stating that after Burke spoke to the board about his plan "We expect to make the playoffs this season".

We shall see what happens should that not happen.

Wilson will be the first to go and unlikely to survive 3 straight non playoff seasons after last seasons debacle. Burke's Leafs better show strong improvement on last season results if he himself fails to deliver on MLSE expectations.

"Sense of entitlement" now extends beyond the players for accountability of the results.

Burke has done more for this franchise in his time here than anyone in a long time. He has 5+ years to set his plan in motion, so stock up on the tissues haters.

Richard Peddie held a PC and announced to Leaf Nation Fans, stating that after Burke spoke to the board about his plan "We expect to make the playoffs this season".
.

Richard Peddie publicly speaking about the Leafs? I guess MLSE is getting concerned about Burke.

I think Burke's job is very safe for now, but it could change VERY quickly over the next 8-10 months. I think this next season is make or break for both he and Wilson (and Schenn, ... but I digress).

Key's to keeping his job safe:

1) There MUST be some resolution on Kaberle. Either a trade or extension THIS SUMMER. If there is no Kaberle deal, no extension, and he walks as a UFA then Burke's dropped the ball in a huge way.

2) Leafs MUST finish outside of a top 10 pick next season. Compounding on the potential lack of a top 6 forward due to not moving Kaberle (see #1), this is not out of the realm of possibility. Leafs could finish close to last again, landing Boston another top 5 pick. I love Kessel, but this would be disastrous.


So Luke Schenn's make or break season comes when he's 20?

:facepalm:

Fortunately I read enough posts on this site in the past months to know that your agreement with opinion is hardly a necessity.

Hey man, go look it up for yourself. No sense sulking because you're wrong.

So Luke Schenn's make or break season comes when he's 20?

:facepalm:

I'm not saying we should give up on the kid. But ...

This is a watershed year for Schenn as well. If he does poorly, there is no softmore slump excuse. His stock will drop like a rock and people will start asking whether he was worth a 7th and a 2nd rounder.

Burke is probably the worst.

The rest of your post wasn't worth reading after that start.

I got tired of waiting for someone to post the two separate rosters (pre-Burke and the winning team) so I did the research myself. It may not be completely correct as the timeline from when the lockout occured and Burke was hired may have a few changes that he was not responsible for. If someone wants to correct me, all the power to them.


Stanley Cup Winning Roster
Ilya Bryzgalov
Jean-Sebastien Giguere

Richard Jackman
Sean O'Donnell
Francois Beauchemin
Chris Pronger
Scott Niedermayer
Joe DiPenta
Aaron Rome
Kent Huskins

Teemu Selanne
Corey Perry
Chris Kunitz
Ryan Getzlaf
George Parros
Dustin Penner
Drew Miller
Andy McDonald
Todd Marchant
Brad May
Samuel Pahlsson
Travis Moen
Ryan Shannon
Rob Niedermayer
Shawn Thornton

Roster prior to Brian Burke

Jean-Sebastien Giguere
Martin Gerber
Ilya Bryzgalov

Niclas Havelid
Martin Skoula
Sandis Ozolinsh
Vitaly Vishnevski
Ruslan Salei
Keith Carney
Chris Armstrong
Mark Popovic

Sergei Fedorov
Vinny Prospal
Petr Sykora
Steve Rucchin
Joffrey Lupul
Andy McDonald
Rob Niedermayer
Samuel Pahlsson
Jason Krog
Stanislav Chistov
Petr Schastlivy
Chris Kunitz
Mike Leclerc
Lance Ward
Cam Severson
Garrett Burnett
Michael Holmqvist
Tony Martensson
Alexei Smirnov
Dan Bylsma
Casey Hankinson

I also got tired of waiting for someone to show the differences between the Leafs first half season prior to the Phaneuf and Giguire trades which essentially shipped out a major portion of the Leafs problems.

Record prior to trades

Win Loss OTL
17 28 11


Record after trades

Win Loss OTL
13 10 3

Quite a difference if you ask me. Doubt this will change the opinion of those who refuse to see any promise in the coming season.

I'm simply saying that they were the 29th team in the NHL in 2009-10 and he has made very few changes this summer. I'm simply raining on the parade of wholly unjustified

That there weren't enough changes was never my point. It's very simple. The team was still a bad hockey team at the end of the 2009-10 season and few changes have been made this summer to suggest that the team should miraculously turn around this fall. I know this is tough to hear. I didn't like it when I concluded it.
It clearly was your point. I have it quoted above again for you. In your rant you missed on this point.

I think Wilson has one, Burke has two.

What has Yzerman done that was so great, has he signed 3 of the best goalie prospects not drafted(Gus, Rynnas, Scrivens), did he sign the most sought after College center available(Bozak), did he bring in a potential franchise Dman for nearly nothing(Phaneuf), did he sign another sought after College FA(Hanson), did he sign a high potential big winger Euro UFA(Mueller)? Even if the Leafs did offer sheet Kessel they still wouldn't have their 1st rounder smart ass!

About the Anaheim thing, Burke actually completely revamped the defense and brough in some pretty good forwards when he was there. He was the one that got Neids, Pronger, Beauch, Marchant(sp?), Moen, Phalsson etc.

I have no idea if you've been living in a cave or not, but the Leafs have the 2nd/3rd youngest team in the league and a lot of our young guys are pretty damn fast(Bozak, Kessel, Kulemin, Versteeg, Grabo etc). As for why our D seemed to play horribly last year, do you not remember who our #1 goalie was, well once he was traded our PK vastly improved as well as our goals against and our record overall!
That is partially true. Indeed Burke did bring in Pronger, Scott Niedermayer, Beauchemin and he truly upgraded that defence, he fired Babcock and brought in Randy Carlyle and traded for Moen from Chicago. Pahlsson was already there when Burke arrived...

In my mind Burke is the guy you hire when you're looking to polish off an already well built team. He loves (and isn't afraid) to make the big move and has a certain confidence (arrogance??) that allows his team believe in themselves.

I think most Vancouver fans will tell you that as a result of these same traits he is not equipped to build a team from the ground up. Patience is key when doing that and I just don't think Burke is built that way. Rash moves always seem to have a way of coming back and biting you in the ***.

We will see.

Wait. I thought Burke was doing a good job? And that the team's 29th place finish shouldn't reflect on the future potential of the team?


Interesting that just like in Anaheim, he's overhauled about 75% of the roster in a year and a half. But when they start to do well you'll assuredly inform us it was all Fletcher.

about a gram

That is partially true. Indeed Burke did bring in Pronger, Scott Niedermayer, Beauchemin and he truly upgraded that defence, he fired Babcock and brought in Randy Carlyle and traded for Moen from Chicago. Pahlsson was already there when Burke arrived...

In my mind Burke is the guy you hire when you're looking to polish off an already well built team. He loves (and isn't afraid) to make the big move and has a certain confidence (arrogance??) that allows his team believe in themselves.

I think most Vancouver fans will tell you that as a result of these same traits he is not equipped to build a team from the ground up. Patience is key when doing that and I just don't think Burke is built that way. Rash moves always seem to have a way of coming back and biting you in the ***.

We will see.

Doesn't make a lot of sense as everywhere he's gone (yes including Vancouver) he's taken a turd and turned it into a nugget (gold at that) in quick order.

If 47 points is dropping off quite a bit, we have ourselves one hell of a defenceman.
well it was a drop off, especially if you consider more than offensive stats. he wasn't the same player.

If you're right and Phaneuf is simply an average player the rest of his career for some reason, then yes, the trade is a disaster. Even you must feel the chances of that are remote, though.
its been a couple of years since he was a norris candidate and one of the best, most feared defencemen in the nhl. i don't know what the chances are he gets back to that form.

lets say you're right and he's had just one less-than-stellar season. why did he have a bad season? even after a massive change of scenery. he just wasn't into it? a season-long nagging injury perhaps? why does a guy as good as phaneuf go through an entire season (or two) being sub-par?

if we know the reason, that will help us figure the odds of a return to being one of the very best.

The rest of your post wasn't worth reading after that start.

I got tired of waiting for someone to post the two separate rosters (pre-Burke and the winning team) so I did the research myself. It may not be completely correct as the timeline from when the lockout occured and Burke was hired may have a few changes that he was not responsible for. If someone wants to correct me, all the power to them.


Stanley Cup Winning Roster
Ilya Bryzgalov
Jean-Sebastien Giguere

Richard Jackman
Sean O'Donnell
Francois Beauchemin
Chris Pronger
Scott Niedermayer
Joe DiPenta
Aaron Rome
Kent Huskins

Teemu Selanne
Corey Perry
Chris Kunitz
Ryan Getzlaf
George Parros
Dustin Penner
Drew Miller
Andy McDonald
Todd Marchant
Brad May
Samuel Pahlsson
Travis Moen
Ryan Shannon
Rob Niedermayer
Shawn Thornton

Roster prior to Brian Burke

Jean-Sebastien Giguere
Martin Gerber
Ilya Bryzgalov

Niclas Havelid
Martin Skoula
Sandis Ozolinsh
Vitaly Vishnevski
Ruslan Salei
Keith Carney
Chris Armstrong
Mark Popovic

Sergei Fedorov
Vinny Prospal
Petr Sykora
Steve Rucchin
Joffrey Lupul
Andy McDonald
Rob Niedermayer
Samuel Pahlsson
Jason Krog
Stanislav Chistov
Petr Schastlivy
Chris Kunitz
Mike Leclerc
Lance Ward
Cam Severson
Garrett Burnett
Michael Holmqvist
Tony Martensson
Alexei Smirnov
Dan Bylsma
Casey Hankinson

I also got tired of waiting for someone to show the differences between the Leafs first half season prior to the Phaneuf and Giguire trades which essentially shipped out a major portion of the Leafs problems.

Record prior to trades

Win Loss OTL
17 28 11


Record after trades

Win Loss OTL
13 10 3

Quite a difference if you ask me. Doubt this will change the opinion of those who refuse to see any promise in the coming season.
After just a quick glance you are missing at least Perry, Getzlaf and Penner from the pre-Burke days.

I'm not saying we should give up on the kid. But ...

This is a watershed year for Schenn as well. If he does poorly, there is no softmore slump excuse. His stock will drop like a rock and people will start asking whether he was worth a 7th and a 2nd rounder.

I can't believe I have seen this word twice in one day from 2 different people. The first time I assumed it was a pun. It's "sophmore".

well it was a drop off, especially if you consider more than offensive stats. he wasn't the same player.


its been a couple of years since he was a norris candidate and one of the best, most feared defencemen in the nhl. i don't know what the chances are he gets back to that form.

lets say you're right and he's had just one less-than-stellar season. why did he have a bad season? even after a massive change of scenery. he just wasn't into it? a season-long nagging injury perhaps? why does a guy as good as phaneuf go through an entire season (or two) being sub-par?

if we know the reason, that will help us figure the odds of a return to being one of the very best.

Remember Chara going from looking as though he didn't belong in the league to Norris calibre? It happens.

After just a quick glance you are missing at least Perry, Getzlaf and Penner from the pre-Burke days.
No, he's not. Perry and Getzlaf were in the system, but they were never on the NHL roster. Burke had them play a quarter season or so in the AHL then promoted them up after clearing some roster spots.

I'd much rather be completely surprised than be foolish enough to believe that the above collection is so much better than Ponikarovsky (21), Blake (16), Stempniak (27), Mayers (3), Stajan (19), Primeau (3), Hagman (25), Exelby (1), Toskala and Wallin (2), Total Goals:117. Your new arrivals, total goals: 74 .

Perhaps in a few seasons some of the Leafs' youth (that's what I'm hoping for) will shine past the mediocrity of the Ferguson regime but many of those names mentioned are neither terribly new nor special, just space fillers.



OMG.. are you seriously making that arguement? Starters Bozak played 37 games and will be more of a playmaker then a goal scorer and will Likely eclipse anything Stajan has ever done in only his 2nd year.

Versteeg is better then Hagman defensively while similar offensively

Sjostrom while never being known for offense is a PK specialist and light years better then Mayers or Primeau which by the way was our biggest problem was GA not GF

Giggy>>>>>>Toskala not even close even with his declined numbers and he is good for Gus

Armstrong will be a great addition with his two way game even if he doesn't score 25 goals he makes the team tougher to play against

Don't forget Stemp had what? 15 goals when he left not the 27 that you mention nor did he ever score that many in a leaf jersey and was a turnover machine.

Blake?...lol enough said

Brown scored as many goals as Mayers and Primeau

Poni...I actually really liked. consistant but decent return with Caputi

Not to Mention your comparing 8 forwards 1 D and a goalie to 6 forward 3 d and a goalie. By your numbers there is 44 goals less on the new guys in. project Bozak over an entire season and add two more forward for a fair comparison(since it's GF you are comparing) along with whatever Kadri can do and IMO the goals for is going to be near the same while the entire team is better deffensively, younger and a whole lot harder to play against.

To argue that this team is not better then what was here when Burke took over is absurd. Not only are they much improved already but being young, much more room to improve together as a young group then then older soft vets that have gone.

What should completely surprise you is if this team does NOT perform better then last year.

Richard Peddie publicly speaking about the Leafs? I guess MLSE is getting concerned about Burke.

To me, the statement was much more in the vain of him agreeing with Burke about management's expectations for the season and not the "make the playoffs or else" statement that Mess lilkes to spin it as.

After just a quick glance you are missing at least Perry, Getzlaf and Penner from the pre-Burke days.

None of these were on the roster pre-Burke. They were all brought up under Burke's tenure.

No, he's not. Perry and Getzlaf were in the system, but they were never on the NHL roster. Burke had them play a quarter season or so in the AHL then promoted them up after clearing some roster spots.
So I guess kudos to Burke for promoting first line players to the NHL.

Burke is probably the worst. I could not believe when he traded 2 1st rounders and a 2nd for a player who skates fast and has a good shot but is not a superstar. I was saying to all my friends the Leafs will still miss the playoffs last year (did not think they would finsish as low as they did, that took a level of pathetic play even I did not think they would acheive). Wake up Leaf fans, management have doomed us to mediocrity for the foreseeable future and Boston fans are going to be rubbing it in our faces.

Well your the best at your job. No hope at all?

I think Wilson has one, Burke has two.
So, altogether they have three ropes?
Richard Peddie held a PC and announced to Leaf Nation Fans, stating that after Burke spoke to the board about his plan "We expect to make the playoffs this season"
No he didn't
So I guess kudos to Burke for promoting first line players to the NHL.
Ya, pretty smart move by Burke IMO
I can't believe I have seen this word twice in one day from 2 different people. The first time I assumed it was a pun. It's "sophmore".
Could have fooled me. I thought he was trying to spell "softcore". Not sure I'd label Schenn's game as that though.
Quite a difference if you ask me. Doubt this will change the opinion of those who refuse to see any promise in the coming season.
I appreciate your effort but there's no room for facts in this thread.

So I guess kudos to Burke for promoting first line players to the NHL.
Some would say it's common sense, others will say it was a good idea to start them there then insulate them in a strong team atmosphere. Depends on how important you believe proper development is.

Many people forget that the Ducks were a bad team until Burke started dealing Sykora, Fedorov, etc.. in his first year. That turned their season, possibly their franchise around.

the whole rope

I appreciate your effort but there's no room for facts in this thread.

I've noticed that. Opinion holds more importance than fact.

If their record after january is any indication i think Burkie will be just fine

You're obviously right, but it's a IF. ;)

Some would say it's common sense, others will say it was a good idea to start them there then insulate them in a strong team atmosphere. Depends on how important you believe proper development is.

Many people forget that the Ducks were a bad team until Burke started dealing Sykora, Fedorov, etc.. in his first year. That turned their season, possibly their franchise around.

That's the thing. How many GMs have the nads to walk in and trade their top 5 forwards? He didn't remotely just add some final pieces. He basically kicked out his top 2 lines and entire defense corps, in 1 bloody year, no less.

I'm not saying we should give up on the kid. But ...

This is a watershed year for Schenn as well. If he does poorly, there is no softmore slump excuse. His stock will drop like a rock and people will start asking whether he was worth a 7th and a 2nd rounder.

I can't believe I have seen this word twice in one day from 2 different people. The first time I assumed it was a pun. It's "sophmore".

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Try "sophomore".

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Try "sophomore".


Right you are...I should go to bed (my eyes are half closed to begin with).

its been a couple of years since he was a norris candidate and one of the best, most feared defencemen in the nhl. i don't know what the chances are he gets back to that form.

lets say you're right and he's had just one less-than-stellar season. why did he have a bad season? even after a massive change of scenery. he just wasn't into it? a season-long nagging injury perhaps? why does a guy as good as phaneuf go through an entire season (or two) being sub-par?

if we know the reason, that will help us figure the odds of a return to being one of the very best.

I really don't know why, but I'm not prepared to get upset about it quite yet as you appear to be. He's 25 years old. Phaneuf has shown so much more good than bad so far that I'm more than prepared to cut him some slack. You don't see this kind of talent too often.

If he sucks this year, then obviously things will change. I don't think that will happen based on what I've seen from this player.

I think even if...
Kabs just walks
the Leafs are in the bottom 3 again
Stalberg becomes ten times the player teeger ever was
and Bozak busts
and Kadri busts
and Gusty turns into the next Raycroft.

Then Burke still won't get fired.

This. Burke will not get fired. he is untouchable as is Wilson. As long as Burke is there protecting Wilson, he will not get fired.

This being said, Burke will land a real top 6 forward before the season starts. Patients guys ... :handclap:

Right you are...I should go to bed (my eyes are half closed to begin with).

No biggie. It happens to the best (and worst) of us.

I think Burke's job is very safe for now, but it could change VERY quickly over the next 8-10 months. I think this next season is make or break for both he and Wilson (and Schenn, ... but I digress).

Key's to keeping his job safe:

1) There MUST be some resolution on Kaberle. Either a trade or extension THIS SUMMER. If there is no Kaberle deal, no extension, and he walks as a UFA then Burke's dropped the ball in a huge way.

2) Leafs MUST finish outside of a top 10 pick next season. Compounding on the potential lack of a top 6 forward due to not moving Kaberle (see #1), this is not out of the realm of possibility. Leafs could finish close to last again, landing Boston another top 5 pick. I love Kessel, but this would be disastrous.

burke has enough rope left to strangle all the idiots who dont understand what hes trying to do

No he didn't


“I didn’t mind it at all,” Peddie said. “I’m not in the dressing room. I don’t know about blue-and-white disease.”

The channel was quickly changed, and Peddie made clear that the Leafs expect to make the playoffs next season.

“Brian said last year he felt we were capable of doing it, but this season? We expect it,” Peddie said. “The tearing down is done. Now we’re building up with youth and adding some players in free agency this summer.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/a-new-captain-to-burnish-the-maple-leaf-brand/article1604189/


How do you interpret that direct quote by Peddie?

I took it a face value when he said "We expect it" ..

Burke has done more for this franchise in his time here than anyone in a long time. He has 5+ years to set his plan in motion, so stock up on the tissues haters.

Thank you!!! I look at where this team was before Burke got here and how it looks now and I am very pleased with what Burke was able to do in such a short time.

over 9000

lol this deserves respect :p

How do you interpret that direct quote by Peddie?

I took it a face value when he said "We expect it" ..

i interpret that as peddie needing some media attention

How do you interpret that direct quote by Peddie?

I took it a face value when he said "We expect it" ..
You'd have to be pretty dumb to believe Peddie when he says anything. It's like believing when Burke says things.

Burke has over stocked us in the d zone so hopefully he can move some body's quick for a top 6 forward so leafs nation can beleaf in him if not back to BEING BURKE HATERS

Colangelos been here for a bit, and Burke inherited a much worser team than what he got

I think Burke's job is very safe for now, but it could change VERY quickly over the next 8-10 months. I think this next season is make or break for both he and Wilson (and Schenn, ... but I digress).

Key's to keeping his job safe:

1) There MUST be some resolution on Kaberle. Either a trade or extension THIS SUMMER. If there is no Kaberle deal, no extension, and he walks as a UFA then Burke's dropped the ball in a huge way.

2) Leafs MUST finish outside of a top 10 pick next season. Compounding on the potential lack of a top 6 forward due to not moving Kaberle (see #1), this is not out of the realm of possibility. Leafs could finish close to last again, landing Boston another top 5 pick. I love Kessel, but this would be disastrous.

Why is it always about people losing their jobs?

People need to wake the **** up and realize that with or without a full rebuild BURKE needs at least 2 or 3 years to ice a team that is truly competitive?

Who here actually thinks that Burke or Wilson can go from a team that iced a top 6 of Stajan, Hagman, Poni, Blake, Stempniak, Kessel and put out a league worst SAV%, PP, PK to a contender in one off-season?

WAKE THE **** UP!

Burke would LOVE to make the playoffs, but it aint gonna happen!

Maybe the Leafs come close this year, but its a long shot.

There is no way Burke can change the culture in the locker room, fix the defense, fix the goaltending, ice a top 6 worth talking about, and build UP an almost empty prospect cupboard in ONE AND A HALF SEASONS???

I AM A PROUD MEMBER OF LEAF NATION, BUT SERIOUSLY SNAP OUT OF IT.

GEEZ!!

So, altogether they have three ropes?

Hahahaha, I found this extremely amusing. Well played.

So very much sire.

He is the big boss hogg in this whole game of hockey. He will dominate rear ends in Toronto for years to come. Years. I kind of love that there.

Burke will also be making some huge moves for this organization and it's all good hearted.

It is GREAT to see you back.

Burke has miles of "rope" left.

The guy was brought in on a long-term, financially lucrative contract. They wouldn't fire him any time soon, even if he was doing a bad job. I think Ron Wilson will be fired years before they would ever consider firing Burke.

Whatever your personal opinion of Burke, the guy is widely viewed in the hockey world as being an exceptional general manager with an impeccable pedigree, and a consummate professional. The fact that he made one high-profile trade with the potential to backfire on him, isn't going to change that fact - it was a calculated risk, and one that seemed more reasonable at the time. Did anyone expect the team to actually be WORSE than the season before, despite ostensibly adding upgraded pieces to our lineup (Kessel, Beauch, Komisarek)?

I think some of you guys think way too "small potatoes" in your assessment of Burke, and how MLSE will view him. One potentially poor trade isn't going to sink him, even if the Leafs are a bottomfeeder again this season. While Burke has been characteristically blunt and outspoken in his desire to be an above-average team in the short term, it is also clear that he is putting a longer term framework in place. He has meticulously upgraded our scouting; scoured every potential outlet for prospects on a scale never before seen for this team, in an effort to restock our "cupboard" with players that have real NHL potential; and remained steadfast in his intent to only acquire NHL players that are in their mid-20's, in creating the "core" of this current Leafs team.

Burke will have at least four full years before MLSE put any real pressure on him to deliver some of the fruits from his labour. And in my opinion, that's exactly how it should be.

Many Leafs fans seem to fall into one of two categories - either they completely delude themselves into thinking the team is good every single season; or they are complete reactionaries, and expect (or demand) major organizational upheaval when results are not attained on an incredibly protracted schedule, or when the general manager makes a retrospectively poor move they disagree with.

I've seen many Leafs fans who seriously think Burke should be fired on the stregth of the Kessel trade alone - before Seguin has laced up for a single game, and before Boston has used all of the draft picks we gave them.

Even if we end up handing Boston another lottery pick next summer, it won't amount to much more than a Toronto sports media feeding frenzy for a few months, and possibly the firing of the coach (if he hasn't been fired by then already). Burke will make some more moves, optimism will start to run high again, and all will be forgotten except for a vocal minority making threads like these. It'll be a cycle.

Oh, and this is my first post here, haha. Look forward to talking amongst a few of you chaps who seem to be grounded and smart in your assessments of this team and it's direction.

- Scott

Correct me if I'm wrong but does he not have a 5 year mandate?

I believe he's a little over a year into it? Just reeeeeee-lllaaaaaaxxxxxxxx.

WHat you said....:handclap:

How do you interpret that direct quote by Peddie?

I took it a face value when he said "We expect it" ..
I believe his issue was with your "Peddie held a PC to announce...." comment. Unless you believe the PC was for Peddie to say this, then Burke saw there was extra time so he announced Phaneuf as captain and threw some of the new jerseys on for the hell of it.

Remember Chara going from looking as though he didn't belong in the league to Norris calibre? It happens.
absolutely. there are late bloomers. guys who "get it" after a few years in the league and seemingly become star players overnight.

is the opposite true as well? are there players who peak in their early 20s and look headed for superstardom, only to crash back to earth and be fairly average players?

He's 25 years old. Phaneuf has shown so much more good than bad so far that I'm more than prepared to cut him some slack. You don't see this kind of talent too often.

If he sucks this year, then obviously things will change. I don't think that will happen based on what I've seen from this player.
if he sucks again this year, why would that change your opinion? he'd still only be 26 and still would have shown much more good than bad.

it'd be two sub-par seasons instead of just one, in your opinion. what would be the big difference? he's still young. still talented.

the big white elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about, or is knowledgeable enough to talk about, is the question of why he was so sub-par this season?

i can see a guy having a a bad game or a bad week. even a bad stretch of 20 games or so. but an entire season? even after a huge change of scenery and a clean slate with a new team? how does that happen?

Hey man, go look it up for yourself. No sense sulking because you're wrong.

I listed 8 major players on the Anaheim Ducks who were inherited by Brian Burke from the previous regime. You've done nothing other than tell me to make a list to prove your point.

30 of the 58 playoff goals during the Anaheim Cup run were scored by players inherited by Burke.

8 of the 16 game winning goals were scored by players inherited by Burke.

16 of the 16 playoff wins were by a goalie inherited by Burke.

Wilson is long gone before Burke is in trouble.

There is no way Burke can change the culture in the locker room, fix the defense, fix the goaltending, ice a top 6 worth talking about, and build UP an almost empty prospect cupboard in ONE AND A HALF SEASONS???

Only took a portion of your post to shorten mine but I don't believe I'm taking anything out of context, although feel free to correct me if I do.

First off, let me say I hate to go in this direction and I know full well that the board hates to hear it, however I'm going to take it there anyways.

The way I see it is that Burke himself believed that he could do all those things in a short period of time to make the team into not necessarily a contender but at the very least a playoff team. The proof is in the pudding or in this case the Kessel trade. He would not have traded for Phil Kessel in my opinion if he thought that he couldn't turn this team around in short order.

Wilson is long gone before Burke is in trouble.

No doubt. I'm actually of the opinion that if this team has a start similar to last year or goes on a lengthy losing streak, Wilson's job will be in serious jeopardy.

I think Burke's also on a relatively short leash. This team finishes in the bottom 3rd of the league again next year and I think MLSE starts re-evaluating Brian Burke as General Manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs in my opinion.

Wait. I thought Burke was doing a good job? And that the team's 29th place finish shouldn't reflect on the future potential of the team?

Burke turned the Canucks around from the disaster Keenan years, and he turned the Ducks around from there basement dwelling as well. He will do the same with the Leafs.

With all the personnel and culture change that Burke has instilled in the blue and white - and it's still not enough for you. Burke is far from being completed, and it just seems that you are too impatient for the process to unfold.

Some of the trades he's pulled off for us in the CAP era are unreal. Many gms wouldn't have the balls to do what Burke has done.

I hear the Blackhawks are trendy right now... you're too to big on Versteeg I've read... you can go watch his mediocre downgrade Viktor Stalberg play in Chicago... if that doesn't work for you.. perhaps Washington ... they're getting pretty trendy as well... thoughts? :shakehead

I listed 8 major players on the Anaheim Ducks who were inherited by Brian Burke from the previous regime. You've done nothing other than tell me to make a list to prove your point.

30 of the 58 playoff goals during the Anaheim Cup run were scored by players inherited by Burke.

8 of the 16 game winning goals were scored by players inherited by Burke.

16 of the 16 playoff wins were by a goalie inherited by Burke.

Those 8 players you listed were never good enough on there own to even make the playoffs with, in a 5 year span. I lived out west..I was there for that cup run in 2007...

Scotty Niedermeyer .... his leadership...guidence... Chris Pronger as his linemate...struck fear in the eyes of everyone. That duo was more effective then Ray Borque/Rob Blake in Colorado's stanley cup victory.... Those were Burke aquistions. He also padded the blue line with Francois Beauchimen. These three names alone on the blue line restored Giggy's dominance. Don't think Giggy was such a hero without these three Burke aquisitions.

Secondly - Burke gave up two first round picks for Pronger... you don't see Duck fans crying like you are crying over the Kessel trade.. cuz they eventually won the cup... just like we will once Burke's plan is complete.

Burke brought in the Ducks coach Randy Carlyle. Another very very important piece to that cup win. Carlyle's system transformed the Ducks into a champion.

Burke also brought in: Penner, Marchant, Parros-May-Moen .. those 3 players alone made it capable for kids like Getzlaf , Perry , Selanne and McDonald to shine on. Before there was any toughness on the Ducks Getz and Perry were 4th liners... scratches at best.

Don't go on talking smack on Burke how he was handed a cup ready team when they were garbage when he took over. Federov was there blinding hope... and they weren't close to a playoff squad when Burke took over that team. Oleg Teverdovsky was there best dman... Your post is laughable at best.

The way I see it is that Burke himself believed that he could do all those things in a short period of time to make the team into not necessarily a contender but at the very least a playoff team. The proof is in the pudding or in this case the Kessel trade. He would not have traded for Phil Kessel in my opinion if he thought that he couldn't turn this team around in short order.



No doubt. I'm actually of the opinion that if this team has a start similar to last year or goes on a lengthy losing streak, Wilson's job will be in serious jeopardy.

I think Burke's also on a relatively short leash. This team finishes in the bottom 3rd of the league again next year and I think MLSE starts re-evaluating Brian Burke as General Manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs in my opinion.

I agree that Burke thought he could turn it around. He's said as much himself. And when the lumps didn't respond, oozing their blue-and-white disease all over the new kids, he shipped them out of town.

That's why he's not on a short leash. He's not afraid to be in charge. He's not afraid to make tough decisions. The Board loves him, trusts him, and sees him as more than just the GM.

Like it or not, he's here to stay. There is no leash.

How do you interpret that direct quote by Peddie?

I took it a face value when he said "We expect it" ..

But it's in the same sense that Burke expects to make the playoffs or Wilson expects to make the playoffs or the players expect to make the playoffs. Peddie is using "we" to refer to the whole big Leafs family as indicated by the first part of the quote "Brian said last year he felt we were capable of it...".

So my interpretation of Peddie's quote has always been something like "The goal of the whole Leafs organization is to make the playoffs. This year, everyone expects to meet that goal."

Whereas, it always seems to me that Mess is trying to portray this statement more as "The board of directors and I expect Burke to get this team to the playoffs. Or else."

Back on topic, Burke shortened a very long rope by adopting the make-the-playoffs-sooner-than-later philosophy. The truth is that even those who are staunchly defending even the smallest perceived slight against Burke carry relatively high expectations for the upcoming season. By "relatively high expectations" I mean it appears that at the very least fans are expecting this team to contend for playoff qualification. Those expectations are patently unfair and unrealistic considering the team we watched last season and the holes that still exist in the lineup. It's perfectly conceivable that this team will finish in the bottom 5 again. If that happens, I suspect that after the coach is scapegoated mid-season, there will only be one person to look to for the blame giving Burke another year to have the team on the upswing.

Of course, all of this could be forgotten if the team does turn around this fall. But that's completely obvious I'd think. Just think, the definition of a perceived successful season are truly modest for Burke for the upcoming season: playoff contention. Let's not forget that Ferguson managed that pretty much every year he was in charge.

Back on topic, Burke shortened a very long rope by adopting the make-the-playoffs-sooner-than-later philosophy. The truth is that even those who are staunchly defending even the smallest perceived slight against Burke carry relatively high expectations for the upcoming season. By "relatively high expectations" I mean it appears that at the very least fans are expecting this team to contend for playoff qualification. Those expectations are patently unfair and unrealistic considering the team we watched last season and the holes that still exist in the lineup. It's perfectly conceivable that this team will finish in the bottom 5 again. If that happens, I suspect that after the coach is scapegoated mid-season, there will only be one person to look to for the blame giving Burke another year to have the team on the upswing.

Of course, all of this could be forgotten if the team does turn around this fall. But that's completely obvious I'd think. Just think, the definition of a perceived successful season are truly modest for Burke for the upcoming season: playoff contention. Let's not forget that Ferguson managed that pretty much every year he was in charge.

Exactly. Fans and the media are fickle. It could turn on a dime. If things go really bad...another bottom 5 finish and Kabs walks as an UFA...it will snowball from there. Fair or not, people forget this is Toronto.

I'm not sure if this thread was made because you just wanted to say something or if you really believe this crap.

Reality, Burke is one of the Top GM's in the league and is well suited for our market. He has a 5 year deal and his mandate is not to build an instant play off team but rather a perenial contender, which means building a young core that can compete every year. This will not happen over night and the members of Leaf Nation who have 0 patience will have to come to terms with that.

He's not going to be fired for years. He's not doing a bad job. And the assumption he is dropping the ball on Kaberle because you havent had a Trade to talk about all summer is just silly.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and niether will a good Leaf team. Sometimes I'm amazed fans of other teams don't call us A.D.D. Nation (attention def disorder).

Brian Burke does not do his job for your instant gratification. He is cleaning up the messes of two previous GM's and aquiring the assets he needs to build on. Whine in year 4 if he still hasnt convinced you of his direction, but I see great strides which I know will require time to show fruit.

This next year will be pivotal. If they are tumbling Wilson will be the scapegoat.
If they finish bottom 2 again I could see Burke's job being in jeopardy and it should be. His choice to do a fast track rebuild should not result in bottom two finishes. The whole point of fast track was to avoid paying the price to do it right and even the sackless MLSE overdogs know that.

But they won't finish bottom two uness they trade for VT and Raycroft again. Another season of being well out of the playoffs will put BB on the bubble and Wilson will definitely be gone. Then next year, barring no bottom finish, they will starting moving out the underachevers that Burke brought in to give the new coach "his team". If the club doesn't make the playoffs in 11-12 BB will be out the door.

Rope left = 2 seasons

This next year will be pivotal. If they are tumbling Wilson will be the scapegoat.
If they finish bottom 2 again I could see Burke's job being in jeopardy and it should be. His choice to do a fast track rebuild should not result in bottom two finishes. The whole point of fast track was to avoid paying the price to do it right and even the sackless MLSE overdogs know that.

But they won't finish bottom two uness they trade for VT and Raycroft again. Another season of being well out of the playoffs will put BB on the bubble and Wilson will definitely be gone. Then next year, barring no bottom finish, they will starting moving out the underachevers that Burke brought in to give the new coach "his team". If the club doesn't make the playoffs in 11-12 BB will be out the door.

Rope left = 2 seasons

There is no rope.

The seats are full, the Marlies are improved, the scouting staff is improved, the coaching staff is improved (think system wide, not just wilson) he's build a specific Leaf culture.

He is now the face of the franchise, respected across the league, and respected by the BOD. He is the President of the team.

Bearing in mind that he has completely revamped the team, moved all all but 1 veteran, made the team younger and made the team much more competitive and fun to watch, let's just assume for a second that this 'rebuild' doesn't work.

He'll do it again.

Let's say that doesn't work.

He, as President, may bring in another person to be GM.

There is no rope.

Of course, all of this is assuming all the obvious positive things that he's brought to the organization suddenly 'fail.' Even in the face of the evidence that it is succeeding.

But again, there is no rope.

But it's in the same sense that Burke expects to make the playoffs or Wilson expects to make the playoffs or the players expect to make the playoffs. Peddie is using "we" to refer to the whole big Leafs family as indicated by the first part of the quote "Brian said last year he felt we were capable of it...".

So my interpretation of Peddie's quote has always been something like "The goal of the whole Leafs organization is to make the playoffs. This year, everyone expects to meet that goal."

Whereas, it always seems to me that Mess is trying to portray this statement more as "The board of directors and I expect Burke to get this team to the playoffs. Or else."

The Leafs have missed the playoffs 5 consecutive years, with Florida the only other NHL team to not make the Playoffs post lockout new CBA. People can't honestly believe that MLSE BOG is pleased with these results considering they maximize their financial advantage by spending to the Cap ceiling each season, which many Teams do not.

So how many more years do you think MLSE BOG is going to let this continue and how many more years must Fans wait to see a Leaf playoff game again.?

Former GM JFJ recorded seasons of 90 and 91 points, just missing the playoffs by a few points, and finishing 9th in the East and he was fired and the team dismantled for that unacceptable performance.

Burke and Wilson have delivered seasons of 81 and 74 points finishing 7th and 2nd last so far overall in the Standings. So your suggesting that MLSE BOG would be content if Burke/Wilson could achieve this year what got Ferguson fired by coming close to a playoff spot? :help:

A green horn GM in Ferguson making $800k, who's performance >> measured verses a veteran GM Burke making $3-4 mil per season must be having some Board members wondering what they've gained by firing Ferguson at this point, as they were closer to a playoff spot before they hired Burke?. :dunno: :huh:

2005 - JFJ - 90 points - 9th in East (TB 8th - 92 points), missed playoffs
2006 - JFJ - 91 points - 9th in East (NYI 8th - 92, points), missed playoffs
2007 - JFJ/Fletcher - 83 points - 13th in East, missed playoffs
2008 - Fletcher/Burke - 81 points - 13th in East, missed playoffs
2009 - Burke - 74 points - 15th in East, missed playoffs and ended in Draft lottery.

2010 - Burke - ??? points - ??? in East, playoffs Yes or No? - Fill in the blanks !!!

The Leafs have missed the playoff 5 consecutive years, with Florida the only other NHL team to not make the Playoffs post lockout new CBA. People can't honestly believe that MLSE BOG is pleased with these results considering they maximize their financial advantage by spending to the Cap ceiling each season, which many Teams do not.

So how many more years do you think MLSE BOG is going to let this continue and how many more years must Fans wait to see a Leaf playoff game again.?

Former GM JFJ recorded seasons of 90 and 91 points, just missing the playoffs by a few points, and finishing 9th in the East and he was fired and the team dismantled for that unacceptable performance.

Burke and Wilson have delivered seasons of 81 and 74 points finishing 7th and 2nd last so far overall in the Standings. So your suggesting that MLSE BOG would be content if Burke/Wilson could achieve this year what got Ferguson fired by coming close to a playoff spot? :help:

A green horn GM in Ferguson making $800k, who's performance >> measured verses a veteran GM Burke making $3-4 mil per season must be having some Board members wondering what they've gained by firing Ferguson at this point, as they were closer to a playoff spot before then hired Burke?. :dunno: :huh:

2005 - JFJ - 90 points - 9th in East (TB 8th - 92 points), missed playoffs
2006 - JFJ - 91 points - 9th in East (NYI 8th - 92, points), missed playoffs
2007 - JFJ/Fletcher - 83 points - 13th in East, missed playoffs
2008 - Fletcher/Burke - 81 points - 13th in East, missed playoffs
2009 - Burke - 74 points - 15th in East, missed playoffs and ended in Draft lottery.
2010 - Burke - ??? points - ??? in East, playoffs Yes or No?

The board allowed Burke to strip the team down and start all over again so they know what the situation is. It's amazing how many people don't understand how much the aging and eventual loss of Sundin set the club back and until that gets corrected by either having a similar player or doing it by committee if that player can't be obtained then we won't get back to the top of the league.

There is no rope.

The seats are full, the Marlies are improved, the scouting staff is improved, the coaching staff is improved (think system wide, not just wilson) he's build a specific Leaf culture.

He is now the face of the franchise, respected across the league, and respected by the BOD. He is the President of the team.

Bearing in mind that he has completely revamped the team, moved all all but 1 veteran, made the team younger and made the team much more competitive and fun to watch, let's just assume for a second that this 'rebuild' doesn't work.

He'll do it again.

Let's say that doesn't work.

He, as President, may bring in another person to be GM.

There is no rope.

Of course, all of this is assuming all the obvious positive things that he's brought to the organization suddenly 'fail.' Even in the face of the evidence that it is succeeding.

But again, there is no rope.

The obvious positive things you refer to don't change the fact the club was 29th. There is no "succeeding" with 29th place, only potential. Another brutal year where the players perform at the low end of their projected ability will wipe out the post deadline improvement and the season will be viewed as a failure.

He was respected and relatively successful in Vancouver and still got fired. He has a personaility cult on this site but I don't think that carries much weight with MLSE. They have had other respected hockey men working for them before BB.
He has personalized the organization, but that hasn't translated to results yet. He has put himself in a position where he won't be afforded the patience of a ground up rebuild. They have given him authority, no doubt based on assurances of certain results, and those results are probably expected to start this year.

I don't believe he will be given the chance to start all over if this version of the Leafs fails, because the next step would logically be rebuilding with high picks instead of FAs. They don't need him for that. There are cheaper options. I think his credibility is tied to the success of this retool and he will sink or swim with it, although I don't believe that a failure to make the playoffs in 2010-11 would necessarily be the last straw. 94 points would have missed the playoffs in the Western conference and that is 6 more points than the Flyers had.

In the past ownership has shown more interest in profits than in winning. If they are satisfied with the seats being full and the Marlies making a buck then I agree he probably has a bit more shelf life. He creates interest even when the club isn't producing and people are way more interested in what he has to say than ever with poor ole JFJ. He makes people care about what is happening with the club, whether the on ice product warrants it or not. Eventually that act gets old though, and he will be judged on the actual results.

I would say if he kicked himself upstairs and hired a new GM it was because he was at the end of his rope as a GM, and it would be to avoid firing. I'm not predicting his failure, because while I don't agree with some of his choices, he's chosen a new direction for the club and he is pushing hard, and making some strong moves. I just don't think he is any safer than any other GM.

I agree with you. I think Burke should have been put on a very short leash after that gross overpayment to get Kessel. I don't give a rat's a$$ about honour, to pay anything more than what was required as per an offer sheet is purely idiotic. Tallon and Yzerman have done more their respective clubs in a matter of weeks than what Burke has accomplished in a year and a half. Personally, I did not like the hiring of Burke as he is living off his reputaton rather than any true success (forget the Anaheim cup as he was not the architect of that).


slow your roll big dog


-- WHAT IS THE COMPENSATION REQUIRED FOR SIGNING A RFA TO AN OFFER SHEET?
For 2008-09, the compensation due for signing a RFA to an Offer Sheet is:

Amount


Compensation Due

$863,156 or less None

$863,156 - $1,307,812 3rd round pick

$1,307,812 - $2,615,625 2nd round pick

$2,615,623 - $3,923,437 1st and 3rd round pick

$3,923,437 - $5,231,249 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick

$5,231,249 - $6,539,062 Two 1st's, one 2nd, one 3rd round pick

$6,539,062 or more four 1st round picks

The amount is determined by taking the total compensation due in the Offer Sheet, and dividing by the number of years specified in the Offer Sheet, or five (5) - whichever is less.


so according to your theory of offer sheet payment we underpaid seeing what Kessel makes now.

Wilson is long gone before Burke is in trouble.

Yup. Wilson will be gone if the Leafs bomb again. Burke is much safer.

if he sucks again this year, why would that change your opinion? he'd still only be 26 and still would have shown much more good than bad.

it'd be two sub-par seasons instead of just one, in your opinion. what would be the big difference? he's still young. still talented.


Because that would establish a pattern of decline, where there is none right now.


the big white elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about, or is knowledgeable enough to talk about, is the question of why he was so sub-par this season?

i can see a guy having a a bad game or a bad week. even a bad stretch of 20 games or so. but an entire season? even after a huge change of scenery and a clean slate with a new team? how does that happen?

I don't agree nobody wants to talk about it. Let's talk about it.

Now, what are you asking here? How can a player have a bad season?

Is that a serious question??

The Leafs have missed the playoffs 5 consecutive years, with Florida the only other NHL team to not make the Playoffs post lockout new CBA. People can't honestly believe that MLSE BOG is pleased with these results considering they maximize their financial advantage by spending to the Cap ceiling each season, which many Teams do not.

So how many more years do you think MLSE BOG is going to let this continue and how many more years must Fans wait to see a Leaf playoff game again.?

Former GM JFJ recorded seasons of 90 and 91 points, just missing the playoffs by a few points, and finishing 9th in the East and he was fired and the team dismantled for that unacceptable performance.

Burke and Wilson have delivered seasons of 81 and 74 points finishing 7th and 2nd last so far overall in the Standings. So your suggesting that MLSE BOG would be content if Burke/Wilson could achieve this year what got Ferguson fired by coming close to a playoff spot? :help:

A green horn GM in Ferguson making $800k, who's performance >> measured verses a veteran GM Burke making $3-4 mil per season must be having some Board members wondering what they've gained by firing Ferguson at this point, as they were closer to a playoff spot before they hired Burke?. :dunno: :huh:

2005 - JFJ - 90 points - 9th in East (TB 8th - 92 points), missed playoffs
2006 - JFJ - 91 points - 9th in East (NYI 8th - 92, points), missed playoffs
2007 - JFJ/Fletcher - 83 points - 13th in East, missed playoffs
2008 - Fletcher/Burke - 81 points - 13th in East, missed playoffs
2009 - Burke - 74 points - 15th in East, missed playoffs and ended in Draft lottery.

2010 - Burke - ??? points - ??? in East, playoffs Yes or No? - Fill in the blanks !!!

Wow, just Wow! Your hate of Burke is really annoying and pathetic. JFJ started off with a decent veteran team and completely ruined it in his tenure here. JFJ traded one of our better goalie prospects for a goalie that he hoped would have a bounce back season, when that failed he then traded our 1st, 2nd+(?) for a back-up goaltender that only looked good because he had a solid team in front of him, he also gave NTC's to McCabe, Kubina, Kaberle, Tucker, and Sundin thus hindering our ability to trade them for anything when their play was obviously starting to decline(Sundin was the only one that should of had the NTC). JFJ was fired, then we brought in Cliff Fletcher(again), who didn't fair to much better then JFJ. He gave Finger a lucradive contract, which to this day is still hurting our club, signed Mayers(the only good thing was that he got shipped out for DP), traded Coliacovo and Steen for Stempniak. With that trade he pulled a JFJ, he traded 2 of our young guys for the hope that a player could bounce back from poor play(obviously a failure). He then trade McCabe for Van Ryn, was pretty good because we got rid of salary, but at the same time was traded for a guy that was/is injury prone and so we basically got nothing for McCabe. Plus he also tried to force Sundin to waive his no trade which in turn probably made this an undisirable place to return to so he decided to take the summer off and ultimitely signed in Vancouver. If it wasn't for Cliff I beleive that Sundin would have came back for 1 more year.

Now, when BB finally got the chance to take over he was left with a garbage dump left by past GM's. His first half year he couldn't really do much because of some NTC's, but in the summer and this past year he changed it very quickly. He got rid of Kubina's NTC, I am a little diapointed that he didn't get at least a little more, but some of those peices turned into the Leafs regaining a pick for the Kessel trade. He went on to sign Komi and Beauch, who did have a disapointing 1st season, but I expect improvements this season. Like I stated earlier he also got a top young player in Kessel, during this season he pretty much got rid of the rest of the players that were brought in by previouse GM's. He traded Stemp for picks, traded Stajan, Mayers, White, and Hagman for Phaneuf, Aulie and Sjostrom, he got rid of Blake and Toskala for a solid veteran goalie in JSG who has also been helping Gus, he signed top College free agent Tyler Bozak and beat out 24/25 other teams for him, signed another high rated guy in Hanson, signed top goalie prospects Gus, Rynnas, and Scrivens, traded Poni for a good prospect in Caputi, signed another good Euro in Marcel Mueller and he is changing the culture of this team. Both years that he was here and the team played poorly were not because of him, the team that did poorly was the work of past GM's!

The thing that BB is doing differently than past GM's is that he's not trading potntial for older players that he's hoping will bounce back, he's trading his older players for younger ones that have shown that they can perform and still have potential to grow. No one better bring up the Stalberg Versteeg trade because they are the exact same ****ing age and to this point Versteeg has proven a lot more and still has room to grow! Paradis and Dido are 3rd/4th line prospects, Dido has a blown knee and it will take nothing more than a miracle for him to be a legit top line player especially on Chicago, while Paradis will just be a 3rd/4th line grinder, we drafted a similar player in Ross who IMO will be better.

I listed 8 major players on the Anaheim Ducks who were inherited by Brian Burke from the previous regime. You've done nothing other than tell me to make a list to prove your point.

30 of the 58 playoff goals during the Anaheim Cup run were scored by players inherited by Burke.

8 of the 16 game winning goals were scored by players inherited by Burke.

16 of the 16 playoff wins were by a goalie inherited by Burke.

The two rosters have now been listed by another poster. Look for yourself. Burke inherited some assets but he is responsible for turning that team into a champion through a series of great moves. It's quite obvious it was a lot more than "finishing off" Murray's work.

However, this is off topic. We can continue this in some other thread if you wish.

People saying that Burke will be in Toronto forever really don't seem to know much about TML history. Just look at Fletcher. He comes in, tears the team up, barely misses the playoffs in 92 after bringing Gilmour in, then goes to two straight Western finals. Did anyone think that he'd be canned just four years later? After missing the playoffs just a single year, in 1997?

If the Leafs finish out of the playoffs again this year, huge pressure will come down on Burke. You're already seeing it now, with comments like Peddie's about making the playoffs this season, all the crazy hype over Phaneuf being made captain after a couple of dozen games in Toronto, etc. Results have to start being seen on the ice this season.

And it's fair. Judge the Burke regime on his moves alone right now. What have you got? He made a huge mistake last year in goal, taking a gamble on Toskala. Fail. He dumped big money into the D, and both the Komisarek and Beauchemin signings were total bombs. Fail. He threw two firsts at Boston for Kessel assuming that the picks wouldn't be very high, yet the 2010 one wound up second overall. Fail. He's beaten the bushes for undrafted college and Euros, and has come up empty so far with just promise shown by Bozak and Monster, with the latter also coming with a heart condition. Kinda fail, but we'll see how this plays out. He's been mouthing about getting a great return for Kaberle for over a year now, and doesn't seem to realize that nobody is going to pay his asking price. Fail.

And so on. Yeah, it's early days yet. But Burke doesn't really have anything point to as a pure success yet. He's got irons in the fire that could really work out -- namely Bozak, Monster, and Phaneuf -- but that's it, and there are HUGE question marks with each of them. Basically, Burke's taken a lot of risks so far, most notably in trading away those firsts so the Leafs couldn't build through the draft. If these gambles don't start panning out, it's pretty obvious the MLSE is going to begin wondering if they've got the right guy.

The thing that BB is doing differently than past GM's is that he's not trading potntial for older players that he's hoping will bounce back, he's trading his older players for younger ones that have shown that they can perform and still have potential to grow. No one better bring up the Stalberg Versteeg trade because they are the exact same ****ing age and to this point Versteeg has proven a lot more and still has room to grow! Paradis and Dido are 3rd/4th line prospects, Dido has a blown knee and it will take nothing more than a miracle for him to be a legit top line player especially on Chicago, while Paradis will just be a 3rd/4th line grinder, we drafted a similar player in Ross who IMO will be better.

Is Burke really that different? JFJ didn't trade for older guys, either. Leaf moves for older players were mainly made in the 90s and early 200s, when the team was trying to pick up the last couple of pieces and win a Cup. Fletcher and Quinn made those. JFJ's Toskala and Raycroft deals involved players still in their prime. Raycroft was just 26 and a couple of years away from winning the Calder. Toskala was 30, but seen as a late bloomer/top starting goalie in waiting. Yeah, terrible moves in retrospect. But how do you know you won't be saying the exact same things about Phaneuf and Versteeg in four or five years?

Jury's still out on Burke's moves. They have promise right now, but that's because you really don't know how they're going to pan out yet. I actually really like Burke. But some of this fanboy stuff is a little too much. Nobody knows how his moves are going to work out right now.

People saying that Burke will be in Toronto forever really don't seem to know much about TML history. Just look at Fletcher. He comes in, tears the team up, barely misses the playoffs in 92 after bringing Gilmour in, then goes to two straight Western finals. Did anyone think that he'd be canned just four years later? After missing the playoffs just a single year, in 1997?

If the Leafs finish out of the playoffs again this year, huge pressure will come down on Burke. You're already seeing it now, with comments like Peddie's about making the playoffs this season, all the crazy hype over Phaneuf being made captain after a couple of dozen games in Toronto, etc. Results have to start being seen on the ice this season.

And it's fair. Judge the Burke regime on his moves alone right now. What have you got? He made a huge mistake last year in goal, taking a gamble on Toskala. Fail. He dumped big money into the D, and both the Komisarek and Beauchemin signings were total bombs. Fail. He threw two firsts at Boston for Kessel assuming that the picks wouldn't be very high, yet the 2010 one wound up second overall. Fail. He's beaten the bushes for undrafted college and Euros, and has come up empty so far with just promise shown by Bozak and Monster, with the latter also coming with a heart condition. Kinda fail, but we'll see how this plays out. He's been mouthing about getting a great return for Kaberle for over a year now, and doesn't seem to realize that nobody is going to pay his asking price. Fail.

And so on. Yeah, it's early days yet. But Burke doesn't really have anything point to as a pure success yet. He's got irons in the fire that could really work out -- namely Bozak, Monster, and Phaneuf -- but that's it, and there are HUGE question marks with each of them. Basically, Burke's taken a lot of risks so far, most notably in trading away those firsts so the Leafs couldn't build through the draft. If these gambles don't start panning out, it's pretty obvious the MLSE is going to begin wondering if they've got the right guy.

The difference is that the Leafs went through ownership changes when Fletcher was here the first time. I don't see that happening now, but I guess anything can happen.

Look at the Raptors. Colangelo has underperformed for longer than Burke has even been here. Plus the Raptors don't have the luxury of being a crap team like the Leafs do.

Judging Burke's moves, how come the positives are still wait and see while the negatives are already determined as failures?

The obvious positive things you refer to don't change the fact the club was 29th. There is no "succeeding" with 29th place, only potential. Another brutal year where the players perform at the low end of their projected ability will wipe out the post deadline improvement and the season will be viewed as a failure.

He was respected and relatively successful in Vancouver and still got fired. He has a personality cult on this site but I don't thing that carries much weight with MLSE. They have had other respected hockey men working for them before BB.
He has personalized the organization, but that hasn't translated to results yet. He has put himself in a position where he won't be afforded the patience of a ground up rebuild. They gave given him authority, no doubt based on assurances of certain results, and those results probably are expected to start this year.

I don't believe he will be given the chance to start all over if this version of the Leafs fails, because the next step would logically be rebuilding with high picks instead of FAs. They don't need him for that. I think his credibility is tied to the success of this retool and he will sink or swim with it, although I don't believe that a failure to make the playoffs in 2010-11 would necessarily be the last straw. 94 points wouldn't have missed the playoffs in the Western conference and that is 6 more points than the Flyers had.

In the past ownership has shown more interest in profits than in winning. If they are satisfied with the seats being full and the Marlies making a buck then I agree he probably has a bit more shelf life. He creates interest even when the club isn't producing and people are way more interested in what he has to say than poor ole JFJ. He makes people care about what is happening with the club, whether the on ice product warrants it or not. Eventually that act gets old though, and he will be judged on the actual results.

I would say if he kicked himself upstairs and hired a new GM it was because he was at the end of his rope as a GM, and it would be to avoid firing. I'm not predicting his failure, because while I don't agree with some of his choices, he's chosen a direction for the club and he is pushing hard. I just don't think he is any safer than any other GM.

Excellent post .. :handclap:

Fans should take a minute, take a step back from their praising of Burke and view this situation through the eyes of MLSE BOG (Ownership) for a moment.

Peddie and Tannenbaum and company call the Leafs "the Flagship Franchise of the NHL", Burke refers to it as "We're Big Blue Dammit" when he references it.. Those statements ring true as the Leafs have the highest ticket prices in the NHL, and generate the highest revenue for the NHL and are a financial powerhouse. What also rings true in those words is a "sense of entitlement" ;), domination financially in the Industry, even elitism and an air of arrogance in their tone, in a belief they're the among the Best and when it comes to $$$ they would be correct.

MLSE BOG believe and feel they're to the NHL, what Bill Gates is to the Computer World !!!.

These guys are proud Businessman and Investors that pride themselves on being the Leaders not the followers, and the head and not the tail.. Now look at what that has gotten them when it comes to the results of their prized once proud Sports Team .. Only 1 of 2 teams to miss the playoffs all 5 consecutive years, all their financial clout despite spending freely and flexing their financial muscle to its limits unable to buy any real NHL success in the NHL Standings..

They hire a Super Boss Burke and experienced Coach to right their Ship, to deliver them to the playoffs again and back to the Top of the NHL standings where they feel they belong. What do they get instead an embarrassing 29th overall finish in the Standings and have become the laughing stock of the NHL, and the butt of endless jokes for their failure in the media, among the Hockey World.

This does not sit well, as it shouldn't.. They have backed Burke to the limit they can financially, given him Autonomy to do as he pleases without involvement or interference on their parts.. Therefore they EXPECT not only a playoff spot but results from their high priced All-Star Management team they have in place to produce.. Its been said many times "Hockey (Sports) is a results oriented Business", and to this point post lockout Cap World Leafs have been among the weakest teams overall in performance on the ice which doesn't match the gate receipts. Trading for Phaneuf and Kessel is not what earns a GM praise from Ownership, its how those players perform on the ice to help the team succeed is what matters most.. A point fans seem to be overlooking when viewing Burke's performance to date. IMO..

This upcoming season is pivotal and the cross-hairs are squarely on Burke and Wilson to produce, as the "sense of entitlement", extends well beyond the players now as the entire roster virtually swapped out and replaced and hand picked by Burke now.

There is no endless patience level from Ownership towards Management and/or rope for Burke to right this Ship slowly, but rather an accelerated expectation to climb back to respectability, as that is what a retooling/renovating plan is all about. Burke needs players to help him "WIN NOW" not tomorrow and he knows it better than most seem to. This is year 3 of the Burke's 5 year plan and its make or break as far as MLSE is concerned.

The perspective of the situation is in the eye of the beholder.

The Leafs have missed the playoffs 5 consecutive years, with Florida the only other NHL team to not make the Playoffs post lockout new CBA. People can't honestly believe that MLSE BOG is pleased with these results considering they maximize their financial advantage by spending to the Cap ceiling each season, which many Teams do not.

So how many more years do you think MLSE BOG is going to let this continue and how many more years must Fans wait to see a Leaf playoff game again.?

Former GM JFJ recorded seasons of 90 and 91 points, just missing the playoffs by a few points, and finishing 9th in the East and he was fired and the team dismantled for that unacceptable performance.

Burke and Wilson have delivered seasons of 81 and 74 points finishing 7th and 2nd last so far overall in the Standings. So your suggesting that MLSE BOG would be content if Burke/Wilson could achieve this year what got Ferguson fired by coming close to a playoff spot? :help:

A green horn GM in Ferguson making $800k, who's performance >> measured verses a veteran GM Burke making $3-4 mil per season must be having some Board members wondering what they've gained by firing Ferguson at this point, as they were closer to a playoff spot before they hired Burke?. :dunno: :huh:

2005 - JFJ - 90 points - 9th in East (TB 8th - 92 points), missed playoffs
2006 - JFJ - 91 points - 9th in East (NYI 8th - 92, points), missed playoffs
2007 - JFJ/Fletcher - 83 points - 13th in East, missed playoffs
2008 - Fletcher/Burke - 81 points - 13th in East, missed playoffs
2009 - Burke - 74 points - 15th in East, missed playoffs and ended in Draft lottery.

2010 - Burke - ??? points - ??? in East, playoffs Yes or No? - Fill in the blanks !!!

You and others keep referring to this "5 years" without a playoff appearance, yet Burke has only been in charge for 2 of those playoff misses, 1 of which he took the team over in mid-season. Those 3 other years should have absolutely no bearing on Burkes time frame to produce a competitive team other than he had to rip the team apart and start over. You can argue all you want that we the fans have waited 5 years for the playoffs, or 43 years for a Stanley Cup but it has nothing to do with Burkes tenure so far, even if we miss the playoffs again this coming season.
Lets just say for the heck of it, we do miss the playoffs again and MLSE cans Burke, they will be setting an extremely bad precedent for any incoming GM. Nobody worth hiring will want to work under the conditions of, "hey you've got 3 years to win or you're gone."

Like him or not, Burke is going to be here awhile.


He has personalized the organization, but that hasn't translated to results yet.

Seriously? Completely dismantle the team and you want results after 2 years? Find me another organization in any sport that has been able to completely change the roster (and I mean completely) and then become successful in 2 years?

Because that would establish a pattern of decline, where there is none right now.
i don't think there's a big difference between one or two sub-par seasons as far as establishing a "pattern" of decline. he'll still be young and still super-talented if he has another bad season (which would in reality be his third straight sub-par) this upcoming year.

I don't agree nobody wants to talk about it. Let's talk about it.

Now, what are you asking here? How can a player have a bad season?

Is that a serious question??
well maybe people want to talk about it, but nobody is.

i'm asking specifically about phaneuf. why did he have a bad season? a "slump" that lasted an entire 80 games? even a switch of teams and a fresh start didn't help him. how is that possible with such a talent?

why has it been two years since he's been considered for the norris trophy and considered one of the elite (top 5-10) d-men in the league?

But that's completely obvious I'd think. Just think, the definition of a perceived successful season are truly modest for Burke for the upcoming season: playoff contention. Let's not forget that Ferguson managed that pretty much every year he was in charge.

He did? Funny, considering he was GM from 2004 to 2008, and the only year the Leafs made the playoffs under him was the first year he was here, when Quinn was still coaching. We still had Ed Belfour then, too; fact is, Ferguson is the main reason our goaltending has sucked for the last 5 years or so.

This is year 3 of the Burke's 5 year plan and its make or break as far as MLSE is concerned.

Actually, I'd argue that it's only year 2 because he did not join the organization until almost halfway through the 2008-09 NHL year. For 2008-09, he was not here for the Draft or the Free Agency period so his ability to seriously influence the team that year was minimal.

2009-10 was his first full year as Leafs GM and 2010-11 will be his second.

You and others keep referring to this "5 years" without a playoff appearance, yet Burke has only been in charge for 2 of those playoff misses, 1 of which he took the team over in mid-season. Those 3 other years should have absolutely no bearing on Burkes time frame to produce a competitive team other than he had to rip the team apart and start over. You can argue all you want that we the fans have waited 5 years for the playoffs, or 43 years for a Stanley Cup but it has nothing to do with Burkes tenure so far, even if we miss the playoffs again this coming season.
this is the kind of logic i find odd. burke is thought of somehow being bigger than the team itself.

fact is, he does carry the burden of this team having missed the playoffs 5 straight years. he also carries the heavier burden of 43 years without a stanley cup.

Actually, I'd argue that it's only year 2 because he did not join the organization until almost halfway through the 2008-09 NHL year. For 2008-09, he was not here for the Draft or the Free Agency period so his ability to seriously influence the team that year was minimal.

2009-10 was his first full year as Leafs GM and 2010-11 will be his second.
Agreed. Still has a few more years at the very least to see his vision through.

People saying that Burke will be in Toronto forever really don't seem to know much about TML history. Just look at Fletcher. He comes in, tears the team up, barely misses the playoffs in 92 after bringing Gilmour in, then goes to two straight Western finals. Did anyone think that he'd be canned just four years later? After missing the playoffs just a single year, in 1997?

Fletcher was fired the first time because Stavro NEVER liked him as GM and was waiting for an excuse. Stavro agreed to give him a few years to "grow on him", then the Leafs had a number of successful seasons, but Stavro never wanted Fletcher to be GM in the first place, so he canned him first chance he got without looking like a complete moron. Thus, that is a completely different situation.

i don't think there's a big difference between one or two sub-par seasons as far as establishing a "pattern" of decline. he'll still be young and still super-talented if he has another bad season (which would in reality be his third straight sub-par) this upcoming year.


you don't? You're the one who suggested that there was a real problem with Phaneuf based on one off year in terms of production, and that this meant he had "a long way to go" to recover. how does an additional year of subpar play not affect that??


well maybe people want to talk about it, but nobody is.

i'm asking specifically about phaneuf. why did he have a bad season? a "slump" that lasted an entire 80 games? even a switch of teams and a fresh start didn't help him. how is that possible with such a talent?

why has it been two years since he's been considered for the norris trophy and considered one of the elite (top 5-10) d-men in the league?

Well, what are the possibilities? Let's talk about it. This thread may not be the place, but...

-his performance before last season was a complete fluke
-he's been "figured out" by the league and will never approach those totals again for the rest of his career
-injury
-off-ice or lockerroom conflict that affected him mentally

I'm not sure which of those it is, or if it's any of them. You seem to be totally amazed that a good player had a bad year, as if this has never happened before. So which do you think it is, if it's not one of those?

He did? Funny, considering he was GM from 2004 to 2008, and the only year the Leafs made the playoffs under him was the first year he was here, when Quinn was still coaching. We still had Ed Belfour then, too; fact is, Ferguson is the main reason our goaltending has sucked for the last 5 years or so.

2003-04 Made the playoffs.
2004-05 Lockout
2005-06 Missed playoffs by 2 points.
2006-07 Missed playoffs by 1 point.
2007-08 Missed playoffs by 11 points.

So, ElectricTicker was right in that except for the final year in which he was fired, the JFJ Leafs were in playoff contention each year.

Leafs ownership is so bad, they have no idea how to run a hockey team.

The JFJ comparisons are laughable. He was appointed by committee, in over his head, and never in charge. As a result, he mortgaged the team's future in every transaction in a hopeless attempt to extend his tenure.

Actually, I'd argue that it's only year 2 because he did not join the organization until almost halfway through the 2008-09 NHL year. For 2008-09, he was not here for the Draft or the Free Agency period so his ability to seriously influence the team that year was minimal.

2009-10 was his first full year as Leafs GM and 2010-11 will be his second.

The regular season starts early October and Burke was hired late November 2008 which is 1& 1/2 months into a 6+ month season.

Burke has had 2 trade deadlines (Antropov, Moore in 2009 & Phaneuf. Giguere in 2010) and 2 entry drafts (Kadri in 2009 & Brad Ross in 2010) and 2 UFA seasons (Komisarek, Beauchemin, Gustavsson, Bozak in 2009 and Versteeg, Armstrong etc in 2010) now to reshape the team.

Its mathematically impossible to have 2 of each of those events, above which are the times the biggest changes happen to the roster and only count as 1 year on the job.

That means he entering year 3 of his 5 year plan and also his contract this season.

The board allowed Burke to strip the team down and start all over again so they know what the situation is. It's amazing how many people don't understand how much the aging and eventual loss of Sundin set the club back and until that gets corrected by either having a similar player or doing it by committee if that player can't be obtained then we won't get back to the top of the league.

Since when is trading Kubina for Exelby and signing UFA Komisarek, trade future draft picks for Kessel, and Stajan, Hagman ,White for Phaneuf, Sjostrom and Blake/Toskala for Giguere etc considered stripping it down.. Renovating/Retooling in not considered stripping it down but rather making changes on the fly.

In all cases the Leafs exchanged roster players but when you bring in established NHL players or trade picks for Kessel you're not stripping it down, but rather building it back up with different players.

In those transactions above Leafs brought in over 24 million in player salaries which is approaching 1/2 your teams salary.

The regular season starts early October and Burke was hired late November 2008 which is 1& 1/2 months into a 6+ month season.

Burke has had 2 trade deadlines (Antropov, Moore in 2009 & Phaneuf. Giguere in 2010) and 2 entry drafts (Kadri in 2009 & Brad Ross in 2010) and 2 UFA seasons (Komisarek, Beauchemin, Gustavsson, Bozak in 2009 and Versteeg, Armstrong etc in 2010) now to reshape the team.

Its mathematically impossible to have 2 of each of those events, above which are the times the biggest changes happen to the roster and only count as 1 year on the job.

That means he entering year 3 of his 5 year plan and also his contract this season.

Mathematically impossible would be 730 = 602. He's over 4 months removed from completing his second season.

Mathematically impossible would be 730 = 602. He's over 4 months removed from completing his second season.

NHL regular seasons run October - April each year and then the playoffs.

Burke was on the job Nov-April in 2008-09 and Oct - April 2009-10.

Can't squeeze just over one month short of two full NHL seasons into just 1 season.

You're talking Calendar years Nov 2008 - Nov 2010 = 2 full years but at the end of that 2010-11 hockey season Burke will be completing his 3rd regular season as Leafs GM.

Burke is taking his kids to Disneyland and going fishing right now because its the offseason so those missing Calendar months are of little significance to evaluating his GM performance. :)

A GM's performance evaluation is based on the Team in the NHL standings and what its desired goal was, and not if he caught a 6 lbs bass while on holidays. ;)

NHL regular seasons run October - April each year and then the playoffs.

Burke was on the job Nov-April in 2008-09 and Oct - April 2009-10.

Can't squeeze just over one month short of two full NHL seasons into just 1 season.

You're talking Calendar years Nov 2008 - Nov 2010 = 2 full years but at the end of that 2010-11 hockey season Burke will be completing his 3rd regular season as Leafs GM.

Burke is taking his kids to Disneyland and going fishing right now because its the offseason so those missing Calendar months are of little significance to evaluating his GM performance. :)

A GM's performance evaluation is based on the Team in the NHL standings and what its desired goal was, and not if he caught a 6 lbs bass while on holidays. ;)

Pre-season starts in September. The draft is in June and FA starts in July and runs through the entire summer, but I guess those don't count as doing ones job as a GM.

Just Enough To Hang Him'self With.

I'm not saying we should give up on the kid. But ...

This is a watershed year for Schenn as well. If he does poorly, there is no softmore slump excuse. His stock will drop like a rock and people will start asking whether he was worth a 7th and a 2nd rounder.

I really wish people would stop saying we traded the 7th pick AND a 2nd rounder for Schenn. We traded a 2nd rounder to move up to get him. HUGE DIFFERENCE

I really wish people would stop saying we traded the 7th pick AND a 2nd rounder for Schenn. We traded a 2nd rounder to move up to get him. HUGE DIFFERENCE

So conveniently leave out the fact that we actually used our first round pick to acquire him? lol.

He cost the organization our 1st round pick (7th overall) and 2nd round pick. Period. Fact. Any way you slice it , or spin it, this is what happened.

Pre-season starts in September. The draft is in June and FA starts in July and runs through the entire summer, but I guess those don't count as doing ones job as a GM.

He's been around for 2 entry drafts, and 2 FA seasons. I think it's fair to say he's entering his 3rd year.

Leafs ownership is so bad, they have no idea how to run a hockey team.

They aren't running the team. If you mean they have no idea how to hire a good GM, you may be correct.

He's been around for 2 entry drafts, and 2 FA seasons. I think it's fair to say he's entering his 3rd year.

Actually this year marks his 2nd entry draft and 2nd FA season and it will be his 2nd preseason but I honestly don't care. Second or third year, it's still too early to be considering firing him.

Pre-season starts in September. The draft is in June and FA starts in July and runs through the entire summer, but I guess those don't count as doing ones job as a GM.

Actually this year marks his 2nd entry draft and 2nd FA season and it will be his 2nd preseason but I honestly don't care. Second or third year, it's still too early to be considering firing him.

I would say that Burke is currently making preparations for his 3rd season.

Too early to consider firing now, however the results of the upcoming season ahead is what we're discussing in terms of measuring his performance to date and how much rope he might have after that point if things don't go well.

I would say that Burke is currently making preparations for his 3rd season.

Too early to consider firing now, however the results of the upcoming season ahead is what we're discussing in terms of measuring his performance to date and how much rope he might have after that point if things don't go well.

And I would say that he has been for a total 20 months and is getting ready for his second full season.

Given that in his first season, he pretty much only had the trade deadlline as a chance to do something, it's hard to count it for much.

you don't? You're the one who suggested that there was a real problem with Phaneuf based on one off year in terms of production, and that this meant he had "a long way to go" to recover. how does an additional year of subpar play not affect that??
if there's a pattern, i think its equally as established after 80 games as it is after 160. if he needs to make big changes, they're just as apparent after one season as they are after two. a second bad season isn't going to reveal anything more.

Well, what are the possibilities? Let's talk about it. This thread may not be the place, but...

-his performance before last season was a complete fluke
-he's been "figured out" by the league and will never approach those totals again for the rest of his career
-injury
-off-ice or lockerroom conflict that affected him mentally

I'm not sure which of those it is, or if it's any of them. You seem to be totally amazed that a good player had a bad year, as if this has never happened before. So which do you think it is, if it's not one of those?
well, he didn't suddenly lose his talent, so its either one of two things....

nagging injury, or the few inches between his ears. if the injury, lets hope he gets over it. if its mental, who knows what's causing it and if or when he'll ever get back to the right frame of mind.

all we know is that he's not the defenceman he should be, or that we want him to be. when people talk about the "steal" that this trade apparently was, they're thinking about the norris candidate, not the phaneuf of the past two years (or one year, if you prefer). he has a long ways to go to get back to the form we want and need.

(...) Secondly - Burke gave up two first round picks for Pronger... you don't see Duck fans crying like you are crying over the Kessel trade.. cuz they eventually won the cup... just like we will once Burke's plan is complete. (...)

(1) Pronger vs Kessel = BIG difference.

(2) These choices turned out to be 30th and 22nd, rather than 2nd and maybe another top 5.

(...)
Seriously? Completely dismantle the team and you want results after 2 years? Find me another organization in any sport that has been able to completely change the roster (and I mean completely) and then become successful in 2 years?

Montreal, last year.

I really wish people would stop saying we traded the 7th pick AND a 2nd rounder for Schenn. We traded a 2nd rounder to move up to get him. HUGE DIFFERENCE

They gave up an early 2nd rounder to move up 2 spots. HUGE DIFFERENCE on the HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Or, from a different angle, they gave up a 7th AND 37th pick to get a 5th pick...

Montreal, last year.

I have a feeling you'll see how "successful" that "rebuild" was this year.

I have a feeling you'll see how "successful" that "rebuild" was this year.

I might have misunderstood the question... or it might have been badly phrased.

Did they dismantle their roster? Yes.

Were they successful in 2 years (or in this case 1 year)? Yes.

Jealousy will get you nowhere.

Didn't see and still doesn't see anything about long-term success in the original question. And let's see what this year brings before you get any "feeling". :laugh::laugh::laugh:

I might have misunderstood the question... or it might have been badly phrased.

Did they dismantle their roster? Yes.

Were they successful in 2 years (or in this case 1 year)? Yes.

Jealousy will get you nowhere.

Didn't see and still doesn't see anything about long-term success in the original question. And let's see what this year brings before you get any "feeling". :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Firstly, they didn't remotely "dismantle" the way Burke has. Secondly, their "success" last year alone is highly debateable (unless you felt Edmonton was a "successful" team when they recently made the Cup final - word of advice, don't look at their following year)?

I don't need this year to begin (barring some special moves) to assure you Montreal will be in the same spot they've been in for all but 1 of the past 16 years: struggling to the bitter end to squeeze into 8th.

Mediocrity does not make me jealous. The Habs are mired in it. I'd rather be terrible or excellent.

I'd rather be terrible or excellent.

Well, only if you get rewarded for being terrible.

And I would say that he has been for a total 20 months and is getting ready for his second full season.

Given that in his first season, he pretty much only had the trade deadlline as a chance to do something, it's hard to count it for much.

Pretty sure Ownership and Fans count the season as a non playoff year. ;)

Burke inherited the Team in November and I don't think anyone is place full value or criticism on Burke in that partial year.. There was a expected transitional and honeymoon phase as there is with all new Execs.

Last year was Burke's first full season and he believed with the additions of Komisarek, Kessel, Beauchemin, Gustavsson, Bozak etc that he had improved on the team he inherited and it could challenge for a playoff spot. It didn't work that way as the team declined in the Standings. What that caused in an even greater recovery this year needed.. Had the Leafs actually improved last year then the jump to the playoffs this year much less of a hurdle to expect.

This upcoming season with even more changes trade deadline Phaneuf, Giggy until now Versteeg, Armstrong major improvements are now expected by Ownership and likely Burke and Wilson.. It will be Wilson 3rd full and Burke's 2nd full plus 1 partial.. I highly doubt Wilson would survive 3 straight non playoff years.. Burke likely still has that out if things go wrong to change coaches and see what happens.. JFJ only got 2 1/2 seasons and one coaching change before he was fired. Burke's record will be similar at the end of this upcoming year with a miss.

No matter how you slice it if Leafs fail to make the playoffs in 2010-11 then they will have missed all 6 post lockout years in a Cap World.. I have to wonder if any one at MLSE is finally going to notice retooling/renovating is not working and all the money in the World doesn't buy you success.. They finally decide its time to try something different as we head into the 2nd CBA post lockout. As mentioned earlier by someone its uncertain if it will be Burke the Architect of the next rebuild if his doesn't bear fruit.

Firstly, they didn't remotely "dismantle" the way Burke has. Secondly, their "success" last year alone is highly debateable (unless you felt Edmonton was a "successful" team when they recently made the Cup final - word of advice, don't look at their following year)?

Letting go of their 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th scorers is not remotely dismantling?

As to Edmonton, they probably have to thank Pronger The Traitor (or his wife) for their fate...

Pretty sure Ownership and Fans count the season as a non playoff year. ;)

Yes, but the intelligent ones don't count it against Burke.

I highly doubt Wilson would survive 3 straight non playoff years.. Burke likely still has that out if things go wrong to change coaches and see what happens.. JFJ only got 2 1/2 seasons and one coaching change before he was fired. Burke's record will be similar at the end of this upcoming year with a miss.

I somewhat agree on Wilson. I think he might survive if the Leafs are still in playoff contention in the final days of the season.

As for you comparing how long JFJ to how long Burke got, are you serious?

First of all, if I recall correctly, JFJ was in the second last year of a contract so they would be looking at three options: fire him, extend him, or let him finish out the last year as a lame duck. A lame duck GM is never a good idea so they were looking at firing him or extending him and decided to fire him. Burke is not at a similar point in his deal.

Second, Burke had a completely different task. JFJ was only expected to keep the machine running and add a few new parts now and then. On the other hand, Burke had to finish up the job of dismantlling the machine that Peddie and Fletcher had clumsily started the season before -- not to mention dismantling some of Fletcher tried to add (although I'll give him credit for drafting Schenn) -- and then build up his own team.

Finally Burke is simply a more experienced and acclaimed GM. And such GMs are usually given a greater chance to get the job done compared to a rookie like JFJ.

Letting go of their 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th scorers is not remotely dismantling?

I still think that Montreal was dismantled to a lesser degree than what Burke has done in Toronto.

Since Burke has been here, he has traded away Antropov, Ponikarovsky, Stajan, Blake, Hagman, Moore, Kubina, White, and Toskala which were significant parts of the team when he arrived.

And there's Stralman, Mayers, and Pogge too but they were lesser pieces.

Well, only if you get rewarded for being terrible.

It has nothing to do with reward, it has everything to do with expectation and knowing where one stands.

With every playoff win, 90% of Hab fans convinced themselves they have a good team. They found a way to overlook that in reality, they are very mediocre. Most of them will be in for a rude awakening when reality sets in next year. 2nd worst offense in the league at even strength. Only 24 non-OT wins. No Halak. Those things will not remain unmasked for long.

As a fan, I'd rather not be lead into a false sense of place.

Letting go of their 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th scorers is not remotely dismantling?

As to Edmonton, they probably have to thank Pronger The Traitor (or his wife) for their fate...

There are 6 players left from when Burke took over:

2 D LUKE SCHENN
4 D JEFF FINGER
15 D TOMAS KABERLE
39 C JOHN MITCHELL
41 L NIKOLAI KULEMIN
84 C MIKHAIL GRABOVSKI

One is an 8th d-man or AHLer, another is 4th line C and a 3rd is quite possibly gone within the month.

As to Edmonton, they got there the same way Montreal did: a goaltender.

It has nothing to do with reward, it has everything to do with expectation and knowing where one stands.

With every playoff win, 90% of Hab fans convinced themselves they have a good team. They found a way to overlook that in reality, they are very mediocre. Most of them will be in for a rude awakening when reality sets in next year. 2nd worst offense in the league at even strength. Only 24 non-OT wins. No Halak. Those things will not remain unmasked for long.

As a fan, I'd rather not be lead into a false sense of place.

Actually, I suspect a large number of Montreal fans knew they were getting lucky in the playoffs and playing above their heads. But often that's more fun than knowing that your team is great and watching them walk all over everyone.

And remember, hockey is also entertainment. And I bet a whole lot of Hab fans were very entertained. Do you realy think they'd want to trade in that playoff run for one that was more suited to the actual quality of the club?

No matter how you slice it if Leafs fail to make the playoffs in 2010-11 then they will have missed all 6 post lockout years in a Cap World.. I have to wonder if any one at MLSE is finally going to notice retooling/renovating is not working and all the money in the World doesn't buy you success.. They finally decide its time to try something different as we head into the 2nd CBA post lockout. As mentioned earlier by someone its uncertain if it will be Burke the Architect of the next rebuild if his doesn't bear fruit.

You're right, it will be 6 years without the playoffs and MLSE will stretch that out even longer if they decide to go a new route because any new GM coming in is going to tear down what Burke has done so far and do things his way. If it's a traditional rebuild I'd say tack another 3 years onto that 6.

All things being equal, I'm not convinced the playoffs are a sure thing this year, but I do believe the team will be contending for a playoff spot and that will keep Burke's job safe.

So conveniently leave out the fact that we actually used our first round pick to acquire him? lol.

He cost the organization our 1st round pick (7th overall) and 2nd round pick. Period. Fact. Any way you slice it , or spin it, this is what happened.

Terrible logic is terrible


in that case luke schenn cost us
a 2nd round pick
a 7th overall
and the 5th overall :O

Actually, I suspect a large number of Montreal fans knew they were getting lucky in the playoffs and playing above their heads. But often that's more fun than knowing that your team is great and watching them walk all over everyone.

And remember, hockey is also entertainment. And I bet a whole lot of Hab fans were very entertained. Do you realy think they'd want to trade in that playoff run for one that was more suited to the actual quality of the club?

I bet if you go to their forum you'll find otherwise. Especially if you mention you're a Leaf fan. You'll promptly be told you know nothing about hockey because your team is not "successful".

I think the smart ones would want a legit run. I know no team seeded lower than 4 has ever won the Cup. Is it possible? Presumably. I know I'd rather be top 4 than perennial 8-9.

My logic is fine.


in that case luke schenn cost us
a 2nd round pick
a 7th overall
OR the 5th overall :O

Fixed. Now your logic is correct, and that was the price for Schenn.

My logic is fine.



Fixed. Now your logic is correct, and that was the price for Schenn.

Actually, didn't we trade a 2nd, 3rd, and the 7th overall for the fifth overall?

LOL, at first glance, I read "How much dope does Burke have left?" :laugh:

EDIT: I do think he has quite a bit of rope left. He has built a new team, and bought in his guys. Teh team is looking petty good, and it seems like he knows what he's doing.

I'm gonna have to think they will give at least 2 years, meaning the end of the 2011-2012 season.

Actually, didn't we trade a 2nd, 3rd, and the 7th overall for the fifth overall?

Yikes, you could be right :scared::banana:

I think Burke's job is very safe for now, but it could change VERY quickly over the next 8-10 months. I think this next season is make or break for both he and Wilson (and Schenn, ... but I digress).

Key's to keeping his job safe:

1) There MUST be some resolution on Kaberle. Either a trade or extension THIS SUMMER. If there is no Kaberle deal, no extension, and he walks as a UFA then Burke's dropped the ball in a huge way.

2) Leafs MUST finish outside of a top 10 pick next season. Compounding on the potential lack of a top 6 forward due to not moving Kaberle (see #1), this is not out of the realm of possibility. Leafs could finish close to last again, landing Boston another top 5 pick. I love Kessel, but this would be disastrous.


Kaberle made it crystal clear HE WANTS TO STAY HERE IN TORONTO !:yo:

But if burkie gets a really good deal he'll trade him , many rumors about sign and trades have been tossed around.

Actually, didn't we trade a 2nd, 3rd, and the 7th overall for the fifth overall?

that is still worth luke schenn .