Kesler vs. Richards vs. Toews

There is an up to date poll with Richards vs. Kesler which Richards won by fair and now a Kesler vs. Toews poll, so I figured I'd make this.

Who out of these 3 is the best player ?

I personally value playoff performers higher, in order Toews, Richards, Kesler.

Good poll.

1.Toevs
2.Richards
3.Kesler

Richards is one of the most complete players in the NHL, the guy has everything. Although, Toews is definitely not far off. Kesler is an easy third pick here IMO.

It's a tossup between Toews and Richards. Kesler is clearly inferior to both.

I don't see Toews as being any better than Richards. Sure he got the Conn last year, but did he deserve it?

I don't see how kesler is the easy third choice or is that much inferior to any of those players. Especially when he is outproducing both of them again, better defensively, better at faceoffs, and is faster.

As for the poll I can't decide, you can't go wrong with either three.

Richards, Toews, Kesler

I don't see how kesler is the easy third choice or is that much inferior to any of those players. Especially when he is outproducing both of them again, better defensively, better at faceoffs, and is faster.

As for the poll I can't decide, you can't go wrong with either three.

Again? :laugh:

I don't see how kesler is the easy third choice or is that much inferior to any of those players. Especially when he is outproducing both of them again, better defensively, better at faceoffs, and is faster.

As for the poll I can't decide, you can't go wrong with either three.

playoffs.

Again? :laugh:

Uh, he outproduced both of them last year.

Kesler has played better than both this year with linemates that can't even finish open nets some times. He carriers our offense most nights on a team with the Sedins on it and is the best player in front of the net on the powerplay we have had since Bertuzzi's prime over in Vancouver. Last year it would have gone Toews then Richards, but not by that much and then Kesler, but I feel Kesler has outproduced and outplayed them this year. If he had a proper top 6 fowards with some hands around the net he would likely have quite a few more assists and a few more goals. He is also on pace for over 40 goals this year.

Uh, he outproduced both of them last year.


My point was after todays game Richards has more points than Kesler and is playing with inferior linemates, JVR and Andreas Nodl. Kesler's career year still is on par with a sub par year from Richards (I consider below PPG a sub par year for Richards).

Kesler has played better than both this year with linemates that can't even finish open nets some times. He carriers our offense most nights on a team with the Sedins on it and is the best player in front of the net on the powerplay we have had since Bertuzzi's prime over in Vancouver. Last year it would have gone Toews then Richards, but not by that much and then Kesler, but I feel Kesler has outproduced and outplayed them this year. If he had a proper top 6 fowards with some hands around the net he would likely have quite a few more assists and a few more goals. He is also on pace for over 40 goals this year.


Sorry but Richards plays with an AHLer in Nodl and JVR who according to most on this site isn't even worth a 1st round pick.

My point was after todays game Richards has more points than Kesler and is playing with inferior linemates, JVR and Andreas Nodl. Kesler's career year still is on par with a sub par year from Richards (I consider below PPG a sub par year for Richards).

Are you kidding me, inferior linemates? Not this **** again. JVR is better than any one of kesler's linemates. Right now kesler (currently has a hand/thumb injury) is playing with a decent rookie and a third liner: hansen, samuelsson, etc. Raymond right now is struggling and doesn't mesh with kesler it seems so he doesn't play with him.

Judging from the stats sheet it says jvr's goal was assisted by giroux and richards. I don't know if giroux is richard's linemate for now but you ( a flyers fan) should know more about that.

Didn't know that richards now has more points, it looks like a good race between both of those players but I don't think they really care about it all that much.

Are you kidding me, inferior linemates? Not this **** again. JVR is better than any one of kesler's linemates. Right now kesler (currently has a hand/thumb injury) is playing with a decent rookie and a third liner: hansen, samuelsson, etc. Raymond right now is struggling and doesn't mesh with kesler it seems so he doesn't play with him.

Judging from the stats sheet it says jvr's goal was assisted by giroux and richards. I don't know if giroux is richard's linemate for now but you ( a flyers fan) should know more about that.

Didn't know that richards now has more points, it looks like a good race between both of those players but I don't think they really care about it all that much.


Yes it was an in-between shift though. Giroux plays on a line with Carter and Zherdev. Richards plays with Nodl and JVR.

Toews
Richards
Kesler

Are you kidding me, inferior linemates? Not this **** again. JVR is better than any one of kesler's linemates. Right now kesler (currently has a hand/thumb injury) is playing with a decent rookie and a third liner: hansen, samuelsson, etc. Raymond right now is struggling and doesn't mesh with kesler it seems so he doesn't play with him.

Judging from the stats sheet it says jvr's goal was assisted by giroux and richards. I don't know if giroux is richard's linemate for now but you ( a flyers fan) should know more about that.

Didn't know that richards now has more points, it looks like a good race between both of those players but I don't think they really care about it all that much.Str On Ice Line Combination Points %Total Points
PP KESLER,RYAN - SEDIN,DANIEL - SEDIN,HENRIK 17 38.64%
EV HANSEN,JANNIK - KESLER,RYAN - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 5 11.36%
EV KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 4 9.09%
EV KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL 4 9.09%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - TORRES,RAFFI 2 4.55%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 2 4.55%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - SEDIN,DANIEL - SEDIN,HENRIK 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - SHIROKOV,SERGEI 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - MALHOTRA,MANNY - SEDIN,DANIEL - SEDIN,HENRIK 1 2.27%
EV BURROWS,ALEXANDRE - KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON 1 2.27%
EV HANSEN,JANNIK - KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON 1 2.27%
PP KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - TORRES,RAFFI 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - TAMBELLINI,JEFF - TORRES,RAFFI 1 2.27%
EV HANSEN,JANNIK - KESLER,RYAN - TORRES,RAFFI 1 2.27%
EV GLASS,TANNER - KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 1 2.27%

Str On Ice Line Combination Points %Total Points
SH GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE 5 11.11%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 5 11.11%
PP BRIERE,DANIEL - CARTER,JEFF - RICHARDS,MIKE 4 8.89%
PP GIROUX,CLAUDE - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 4 8.89%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE - ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI 4 8.89%
EV BRIERE,DANIEL - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 2 4.44%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - POWE,DARROLL - RICHARDS,MIKE 2 4.44%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE - ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI 2 4.44%
PP BRIERE,DANIEL - CARTER,JEFF - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV CARCILLO,DANIEL - RICHARDS,MIKE - WELLWOOD,ERIC 1 2.22%
EV RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - NODL,ANDREAS - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - HARTNELL,SCOTT - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
PP BRIERE,DANIEL - CARTER,JEFF - GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV POWE,DARROLL - RICHARDS,MIKE - ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI 1 2.22%
EV HARTNELL,SCOTT - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV BRIERE,DANIEL - GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
PP CARTER,JEFF - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
PP GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE - WELLWOOD,ERIC 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%

:tvhappy:

^^ Wtf is your point? That kesler has more points on the pp than he has on even strength? Of course he would, he wouldn't produce all that much with craptacular linemates (on ES) that don't have any finishing ability. Too bad though with raymond and samuelsson seem to being regressing. Relying on stats sheets doesn't really help your argument all that much.

Kesler's the main reason why the canuck's PP is on the top of the league, although the sedins do help in that regard. Fyi kesler lead the team on PP goals without playing with the sedins and on the second PP unit last year.

What I find is funny is how many secondary assists richards is garnering. Although he's having a great season which is good to see though.

JVR is not an improvement over Raymond/Samuelsson. Both were 25 goal scorers last season and JVR struggled early in the season and Richards carried him on his back. Good to see him improving.

Kesler has more proven ES linemates while Richards has to look after two rookies and Zherdev.

JVR is not an improvement over Raymond/Samuelsson. Both were 25 goal scorers last season and JVR struggled early in the season and Richards carried him on his back. Good to see him improving.

Kesler has more proven ES linemates while Richards has to look after two rookies and Zherdev.

Yes kesler has more proven linemates but it doesn't the change the fact that they have been struggling offensively for the majority of the season. A big reason raymond and samuelsson efficiently scored 25+ was because they were put on kesler's line (you know the line where he makes his linemates better).

I'd take JVR over either in a heartbeat tbh.

Str On Ice Line Combination Points %Total Points
PP KESLER,RYAN - SEDIN,DANIEL - SEDIN,HENRIK 17 38.64%
EV HANSEN,JANNIK - KESLER,RYAN - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 5 11.36%
EV KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 4 9.09%
EV KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL 4 9.09%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - TORRES,RAFFI 2 4.55%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 2 4.55%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - SEDIN,DANIEL - SEDIN,HENRIK 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - SHIROKOV,SERGEI 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - MALHOTRA,MANNY - SEDIN,DANIEL - SEDIN,HENRIK 1 2.27%
EV BURROWS,ALEXANDRE - KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON 1 2.27%
EV HANSEN,JANNIK - KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON 1 2.27%
PP KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - TORRES,RAFFI 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - TAMBELLINI,JEFF - TORRES,RAFFI 1 2.27%
EV HANSEN,JANNIK - KESLER,RYAN - TORRES,RAFFI 1 2.27%
EV GLASS,TANNER - KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 1 2.27%

Str On Ice Line Combination Points %Total Points
SH GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE 5 11.11%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 5 11.11%
PP BRIERE,DANIEL - CARTER,JEFF - RICHARDS,MIKE 4 8.89%
PP GIROUX,CLAUDE - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 4 8.89%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE - ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI 4 8.89%
EV BRIERE,DANIEL - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 2 4.44%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - POWE,DARROLL - RICHARDS,MIKE 2 4.44%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE - ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI 2 4.44%
PP BRIERE,DANIEL - CARTER,JEFF - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV CARCILLO,DANIEL - RICHARDS,MIKE - WELLWOOD,ERIC 1 2.22%
EV RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - NODL,ANDREAS - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - HARTNELL,SCOTT - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
PP BRIERE,DANIEL - CARTER,JEFF - GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV POWE,DARROLL - RICHARDS,MIKE - ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI 1 2.22%
EV HARTNELL,SCOTT - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV BRIERE,DANIEL - GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
PP CARTER,JEFF - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
PP GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE - WELLWOOD,ERIC 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%

:tvhappy:

go actually add up the entire list you just posted,add up all the mentions of Giroux in the Richards list you just posted and all the mentions of the Sedins in the Kesler list you just posted

total 19 of Kesler's points the Sedins were on the ice,total 18 of Richard's points Giroux was on the ice

wow what a massive difference

^^ Wtf is your point? That kesler has more points on the pp than he has on even strength? Of course he would, he wouldn't produce all that much with craptacular linemates (on ES) that don't have any finishing ability. Too bad though with raymond and samuelsson seem to being regressing. Relying on stats sheets doesn't really help your argument all that much.

Kesler's the main reason why the canuck's PP is on the top of the league, although the sedins do help in that regard. Fyi kesler lead the team on PP goals without playing with the sedins and on the second PP unit last year.

What I find is funny is how many secondary assists richards is garnering. Although he's having a great season which is good to see though.


What I find funny is how you keep ragging on Richards like he is some bum. How about Kesler actually has a PPG year and then he can be put in Richards' regards.

I personally value playoff performers higher, in order Toews, Richards, Kesler.

Good poll.

Kesler has never been to playoffs and never will, sheesh get it right.

He is not to be compared with anyone as he is inferior. I think a Kesler versus Horcoff poll is more like it. Right?

1. Richards 2. Kesler 3. Toews (intangibles are overrated)

It's a tossup between Toews and Richards. Kesler is clearly inferior to both.

lolwut:laugh:

go actually add up the entire list you just posted,add up all the mentions of Giroux in the Richards list you just posted and all the mentions of the Sedins in the Kesler list you just posted

total 19 of Kesler's points the Sedins were on the ice,total 18 of Richard's points Giroux was on the ice

wow what a massive difference

Sedins Vs. Giroux, i wonder which would be better at offense.... hmmm

Why is kesler in this poll?

Richards
Toews






Kesler

Don't Toews me bro!

why aren't toews line mates mentioned? he plays with the best ones

Why is kesler Toews in this poll?

Richards
Toews Kesler






Kesler Toews

fixed

What I find funny is how you keep ragging on Richards like he is some bum. How about Kesler actually has a PPG year and then he can be put in Richards' regards.

Well he is a bum. :sarcasm:

Apparently just notifying that richards has had that many secondary assists and playing with better linemates means I am "ragging" on him? The whole premise of my argument is that it's sort of ridiculous to deem kesler as the third easy choice/inferior when he has accumulated more points for the past two seasons. No to to mention he has a 40+ goal pace and the other facts I brought up in this thread before.

If you don't see kesler in the same regards as richards you wouldn't make a poll about them unless you like lopsided polls (which doesn't the same case here if you see it objectively).

Why is kesler in this poll?

Richards
Toews






Kesler


Oh look an oilers fan questioning of why is a similar two player (who happens to be a canuck) pitted against comparable two players? Not only that but he puts him all the way down... Suprising!

______

I am out because I am getting tired of these repetitive arguments. C'est la vie.

Why is kesler in this poll?

Richards
Toews






Kesler


:sarcasm: ?

Well he is a bum. :sarcasm:

Apparently just notifying that richards has had that many secondary assists and playing with better linemates means I am "ragging" on him? The whole premise of my argument is that it's sort of ridiculous to deem kesler as the third easy choice/inferior when he has accumulated more points for the past two seasons. No to to mention he has a 40+ goal pace and the other facts I brought up in this thread before.

If you don't see kesler in the same regards as richards you wouldn't make a poll about them unless you like lopsided polls (which doesn't the same case here if you see it objectively).

No trust me I do, I see this poll as

Richards
Kesler


Toews

Toews

go actually add up the entire list you just posted,add up all the mentions of Giroux in the Richards list you just posted and all the mentions of the Sedins in the Kesler list you just posted

total 19 of Kesler's points the Sedins were on the ice,total 18 of Richard's points Giroux was on the ice

wow what a massive difference

5 of those 18 points are SHORTHANDED! 17 of those 19 points from Kesler are on the PP.

Kesler gets nearly 40% of his points on the PP with the Sedins. Richards gets more points SHORTHANDED with Giroux or EV with Nodl & JVR (11% each) than he does in ANY OTHER COMBINATION.

Yes, that is a massive difference.

go actually add up the entire list you just posted,add up all the mentions of Giroux in the Richards list you just posted and all the mentions of the Sedins in the Kesler list you just posted

total 19 of Kesler's points the Sedins were on the ice,total 18 of Richard's points Giroux was on the ice

wow what a massive difference

So is your argument that Giroux=Sedins?

Richards
Kesler
Toews

Toews
Richards
Kesler

Str On Ice Line Combination Points %Total Points
PP KESLER,RYAN - SEDIN,DANIEL - SEDIN,HENRIK 17 38.64%
EV HANSEN,JANNIK - KESLER,RYAN - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 5 11.36%
EV KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 4 9.09%
EV KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL 4 9.09%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - TORRES,RAFFI 2 4.55%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 2 4.55%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - SEDIN,DANIEL - SEDIN,HENRIK 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - SHIROKOV,SERGEI 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - MALHOTRA,MANNY - SEDIN,DANIEL - SEDIN,HENRIK 1 2.27%
EV BURROWS,ALEXANDRE - KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON 1 2.27%
EV HANSEN,JANNIK - KESLER,RYAN - RAYMOND,MASON 1 2.27%
PP KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL - TORRES,RAFFI 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - TAMBELLINI,JEFF - TORRES,RAFFI 1 2.27%
EV HANSEN,JANNIK - KESLER,RYAN - TORRES,RAFFI 1 2.27%
EV GLASS,TANNER - KESLER,RYAN - SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL 1 2.27%
EV KESLER,RYAN - TAMBELLINI,JEFF 1 2.27%

Str On Ice Line Combination Points %Total Points
SH GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE 5 11.11%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 5 11.11%
PP BRIERE,DANIEL - CARTER,JEFF - RICHARDS,MIKE 4 8.89%
PP GIROUX,CLAUDE - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 4 8.89%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE - ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI 4 8.89%
EV BRIERE,DANIEL - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 2 4.44%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - POWE,DARROLL - RICHARDS,MIKE 2 4.44%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE - ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI 2 4.44%
PP BRIERE,DANIEL - CARTER,JEFF - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV CARCILLO,DANIEL - RICHARDS,MIKE - WELLWOOD,ERIC 1 2.22%
EV RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - NODL,ANDREAS - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - HARTNELL,SCOTT - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
PP BRIERE,DANIEL - CARTER,JEFF - GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV POWE,DARROLL - RICHARDS,MIKE - ZHERDEV,NIKOLAI 1 2.22%
EV HARTNELL,SCOTT - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV BRIERE,DANIEL - GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
PP CARTER,JEFF - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
PP GIROUX,CLAUDE - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - RICHARDS,MIKE - VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES 1 2.22%
EV NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE - WELLWOOD,ERIC 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - LEINO,VILLE - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%
EV CARTER,JEFF - NODL,ANDREAS - RICHARDS,MIKE 1 2.22%

:tvhappy:

This should really be the end of any debate between Richards/Kesler.

Why is kesler in this poll?

Richards
Toews






Kesler

Come on man, your making Oiler fans look bad. I dont think Kesler is Still better then any center we have on our team

Don't Toews me bro!

You rannnnng???

Playoffs:

Richards
Toews


Kesler (He just hasn't led his team like the other two have)


Regular Season:

Richards/Kesler
Kesler/Richards

Toews

Everyone is arguing Kesler vs Toews in this thread, but to me, these guys are clearly the top 2. Now, personally I take Kesler because I like his speed, and his Sakic-ish wrist shot but I certainly wouldn't blame anyone who took Richards. Likely, MORE people will tajke Richards first, but that could change this season if Kesler grabs the Selke and pots 40+ goals.

What has Toews done exactly aside from a good playoff run last season on a heavily stacked team? Why isn't he making it happen this season at all, and with superior line mates to both the other choices? Toews is NOT on the same level as Kesler and Richards, but, he is younger so he has all the opportunity to catch up.

1a Richards
1b Kesler



Toews

Voted Kesler because I think he's getting underrated here.

It's as if HF realizes it overrates a certain player and then proceeds to completely underrate him to balance things out (see: Green)

For me, it's Richards - Kesler - Toews

Everyone is arguing Kesler vs Toews in this thread, but to me, these guys are clearly the top 2. Now, personally I take Kesler because I like his speed, and his Sakic-ish wrist shot but I certainly wouldn't blame anyone who took Richards. Likely, MORE people will tajke Richards first, but that could change this season if Kesler grabs the Selke and pots 40+ goals.

What has Toews done exactly aside from a good playoff run last season on a heavily stacked team? Why isn't he making it happen this season at all, and with superior line mates to both the other choices? Toews is NOT on the same level as Kesler and Richards, but, he is younger so he has all the opportunity to catch up.

1a Richards
1b Kesler



Toews

How many Gm's would trade Toews for Kesler???????answer 0.
People are underrating his amazing year, and he is doing just fine this year, 17 goals, with 59%face offs and solid two way play, i agree Richards is a good argument, but Kesler is unproven in the post season, his eam has plenty of talent, Toes is 22, Richards and Kesler are what 26?

Everyone is arguing Kesler vs Toews in this thread, but to me, these guys are clearly the top 2. Now, personally I take Kesler because I like his speed, and his Sakic-ish wrist shot but I certainly wouldn't blame anyone who took Richards. Likely, MORE people will tajke Richards first, but that could change this season if Kesler grabs the Selke and pots 40+ goals.

What has Toews done exactly aside from a good playoff run last season on a heavily stacked team? Why isn't he making it happen this season at all, and with superior line mates to both the other choices? Toews is NOT on the same level as Kesler and Richards, but, he is younger so he has all the opportunity to catch up.

1a Richards
1b Kesler



Toews

Kesler will only rank ahead of Toews if he gets respect, he can get respect by carrying the team on his back to a cup appearance then I'll say it's Richards/Kesler/Toews.

Jonathan Toews

lolwut:laugh:

Kesler: 450 GP, 116 G, 144 A, 260 P (82 GP, 21 G, 26 A, 47 P)
Richards: 421 GP, 127 G, 201 A, 328 P (82 GP, 25 G, 39 A, 64 P)
Toews: 269 GP, 100 G, 129 A, 229 P (82 GP, 30 G, 39 A, 69 P)

All three players are of roughly equal defensive ability, so the fact that Kesler lags behind the other two both in terms of offensive output as well as career accomplishments should make him the clear number three in this comparison. It's not a knock on him; he's just not as good as Toews or Richards, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

Kesler: 450 GP, 116 G, 144 A, 260 P (82 GP, 21 G, 26 A, 47 P)
Richards: 421 GP, 127 G, 201 A, 328 P (82 GP, 25 G, 39 A, 64 P)
Toews: 269 GP, 100 G, 129 A, 229 P (82 GP, 30 G, 39 A, 69 P)

All three players are of roughly equal defensive ability, so the fact that Kesler lags behind the other two both in terms of offensive output as well as career accomplishments should make him the clear number three in this comparison. It's not a knock on him; he's just not as good as Toews or Richards, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

Yup, he fluked into 25 goals last year and per all experts on HFB, he will never reach that level again. Some suggested that his role changed and he is being allowed to play a more offensive game and his stats starting last year on are a better indicator of what he can really do in that part of the game. As last year's number were a total fluke, this year will prove that nothing has changed and he will stay on his previous pre-last year pace of scoring/points and lag far behind Toews/Richards each and every season until they all retire.

Kesler: 450 GP, 116 G, 144 A, 260 P (82 GP, 21 G, 26 A, 47 P)
Richards: 421 GP, 127 G, 201 A, 328 P (82 GP, 25 G, 39 A, 64 P)
Toews: 269 GP, 100 G, 129 A, 229 P (82 GP, 30 G, 39 A, 69 P)

All three players are of roughly equal defensive ability, so the fact that Kesler lags behind the other two both in terms of offensive output as well as career accomplishments should make him the clear number three in this comparison. It's not a knock on him; he's just not as good as Toews or Richards, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

You of all people should understand why career stats can be misleading.

Joe Thornton's average stats would be 25G-58A-83P in 82 GP.

Do you really think it's fair to view Thornton as "just" a PPG player? Do you think that would be a valid argument in 2005-2006 when discussing how good he is in a poll? No. Thornton was a 110+ point beast in his prime and allowing his 7 point rookie season to influence your opinion of him would be a mistake.

Similarily, Kesler has clearly changed since his first 2 seasons in the league where he scored ~20 points each and it is unfair to judge him right now based on his play 7 years ago.

You of all people should understand why career stats can be misleading.

Joe Thornton's average stats would be 25G-58A-83P in 82 GP.

Do you really think it's fair to view Thornton as "just" a PPG player? Do you think that would be a valid argument in 2005-2006 when discussing how good he is in a poll? No. Thornton was a 110+ point beast in his prime and allowing his 7 point rookie season to influence your opinion of him would be a mistake.

Similarily, Kesler has clearly changed since his first 2 seasons in the league where he scored ~20 points each and it is unfair to judge him right now based on his play 7 years ago.Of course if it is the only basis for your argument it is entirely fair. Comparing players on what they are presently doing goes against some preconceived notions so better dredge up something that fits that notion..."whew, that is better" is the outcome of said dredging. Facing the facts of the present (say last year or two and this current one) makes it a much tougher discussion and we can't have that now can we. :laugh:

Kesler: 450 GP, 116 G, 144 A, 260 P (82 GP, 21 G, 26 A, 47 P)
Richards: 421 GP, 127 G, 201 A, 328 P (82 GP, 25 G, 39 A, 64 P)
Toews: 269 GP, 100 G, 129 A, 229 P (82 GP, 30 G, 39 A, 69 P)

All three players are of roughly equal defensive ability, so the fact that Kesler lags behind the other two both in terms of offensive output as well as career accomplishments should make him the clear number three in this comparison. It's not a knock on him; he's just not as good as Toews or Richards, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

Kesler was on the third line for most his career, let's compare the last 3 years, and see how far kesler is behind.

Not to mention, Kesler is on the SECOND line in vancouver, and only THIS year he has played on the #1 PP unit.

This should really be the end of any debate between Richards/Kesler.

I'm guessing you purposely ignored the post that mentioned that there is a ONE game difference between Richards playing with Giroux and Kesler playing with the Sedins. Unless you think Giroux sucks or something.

Also since Kesler broke out (last 3 years) he has 171 points, and has improved in points each year, and he's on pace (barely) to do that again, and i'm sure his pace will increase.

On the other hand Richards has 217 points in that time span, but had a decrease in points last year by 18 points, although he's on pace for a solid increase this year, probably due to Giroux who's having a career year.

Then you have the Selke trophy votes where Kesler had 9 first place votes, and Richards had 4. In fact Richards only had 10 votes in total.

So lets see, with about the same skill linemates (arguably) they are on pace for about the same points, Richards has had the better career (so far) and at least to most people (people who vote for Selke + fans on here) is inferior defensively.

So i'm going to say Kesler is currently the better player, Richards has had the better career. EDIT: same with Toews, except i'd say Kesler is far better defensively.

[QUOTE=parabola;30446528]I'm guessing you purposely ignored the post that mentioned that there is a ONE game difference between Richards playing with Giroux and Kesler playing with the Sedins. Unless you think Giroux sucks or something.

Also since Kesler broke out (last 3 years) he has 171 points, and has improved in points each year, and he's on pace (barely) to do that again, and i'm sure his pace will increase.

On the other hand Richards has 217 points in that time span, but had a decrease in points last year by 18 points, although he's on pace for a solid increase this year, probably due to Giroux who's having a career year.

Then you have the Selke trophy votes where Kesler had 9 first place votes, and Richards had 4. In fact Richards only had 10 votes in total.

So lets see, with about the same skill linemates (arguably) they are on pace for about the same points, Richards has had the better career (so far) and at least to most people (people who vote for Selke + fans on here) is inferior defensive
Toews=better ppg in playofs and reg season

I'm guessing you purposely ignored the post that mentioned that there is a ONE game difference between Richards playing with Giroux and Kesler playing with the Sedins. Unless you think Giroux sucks or something.

Also since Kesler broke out (last 3 years) he has 171 points, and has improved in points each year, and he's on pace (barely) to do that again, and i'm sure his pace will increase.

On the other hand Richards has 217 points in that time span, but had a decrease in points last year by 18 points, although he's on pace for a solid increase this year, probably due to Giroux who's having a career year.Then you have the Selke trophy votes where Kesler had 9 first place votes, and Richards had 4. In fact Richards only had 10 votes in total.

Logic that you Kesler fans bring is hurting an otherwise entertaining thread. :sarcasm:

I'm guessing you purposely ignored the post that mentioned that there is a ONE game difference between Richards playing with Giroux and Kesler playing with the Sedins. Unless you think Giroux sucks or something.


So lets see, with about the same skill linemates (arguably) they are on pace for about the same points, Richards has had the better career (so far) and at least to most people (people who vote for Selke + fans on here) is inferior defensively.



:facepalm: I love Giroux but he isn't close to as talented as either of the Sedin's, let alone both of them at once.

As for the Selke, I Richards had the most first place Selke votes two years ago, and didn't get as many votes last year primarily due to poor offensive performance.

Kesler is a bit of a late bloomer but I think that is the difference between developing in the CHL or going to an american university. Kesler has now caught up to Richards and I think the two will be pretty comparable for the remainder of their careers.

Toews will continue to improve and probably has the highest ceiling of the three but right now is probably just a bit behind (3 or 4 years of development will change that).

Yes Richards and Toews have gone further in the playoffs but Kesler hasn't been healthy for a playoff run yet and neither has the team around him. Both the Hawks and the Flyers were fairly fortunate last year with injuries and until Kesler and the team can have a full healthy run, I don't think you can judge playoff performance.

Richards easily.

I'm guessing you purposely ignored the post that mentioned that there is a ONE game difference between Richards playing with Giroux and Kesler playing with the Sedins. Unless you think Giroux sucks or something.

Also since Kesler broke out (last 3 years) he has 171 points, and has improved in points each year, and he's on pace (barely) to do that again, and i'm sure his pace will increase.

On the other hand Richards has 217 points in that time span, but had a decrease in points last year by 18 points, although he's on pace for a solid increase this year, probably due to Giroux who's having a career year.

Then you have the Selke trophy votes where Kesler had 9 first place votes, and Richards had 4. In fact Richards only had 10 votes in total.

So lets see, with about the same skill linemates (arguably) they are on pace for about the same points, Richards has had the better career (so far) and at least to most people (people who vote for Selke + fans on here) is inferior defensively.

So i'm going to say Kesler is currently the better player, Richards has had the better career. EDIT: same with Toews, except i'd say Kesler is far better defensively.


Actually, no because as mentioned before he does not play with Giroux.

I'm guessing you purposely ignored the post that mentioned that there is a ONE game difference between Richards playing with Giroux and Kesler playing with the Sedins. Unless you think Giroux sucks or something.I think the rather obvious point that 5 > 4 seems to have escaped you.

It's a little damning when the bulk of Kesler's production comes with a man advantage, and with two players currently on target to each score over 100 points. However, the fact Richards' primary method of scoring comes while his team's at a disadvantage (read: while on the penalty-kill) and that he continues to keep pace with Kesler is just as testament to his consistency, and offensive talent.Also since Kesler broke out (last 3 years) he has 171 points, and has improved in points each year, and he's on pace (barely) to do that again, and i'm sure his pace will increase.You realize that scoring league-wide tends to trend downwards as teams gear up for the playoffs, and that Kesler currently has a 16.88 shooting percentage, which is right around where Burrows was the previous two seasons (before crashing down to normalcy). The guy's a PRIME candidate to see his production diminish over the final stretch.On the other hand Richards has 217 points in that time span, but had a decrease in points last year by 18 points, although he's on pace for a solid increase this year, probably due to Giroux who's having a career year.Richards is rebounding to 70+ points (a plateau which he's already reached twice in his career) because of Claude Giroux who spends less time on Richards' wing than either Andreas Nodl, Nikholai Zherdev, or James Van Riemsdyk, to say nothing of Kesler's circumstances. I think I read that right.Then you have the Selke trophy votes where Kesler had 9 first place votes, and Richards had 4. In fact Richards only had 10 votes in total.2007-2008 Frank Selke Trophy Voting, Top 20 Finishers
# Player Team PTS 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
1. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 537 (43-9-7-3-0)
2. John Madden, N.J. 447 (18-18-16-17-10)
3. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 425 (22-20-6-10-5)
4. Patrick Sharp, CHI 290 (10-14-13-8-3)
5. Mike Richards, PHI 220 (10-6-6-13-9)
6. Samuel Pahlsson, ANA 163 (7-6-7-3-7)
7. Brenden Morrow, DAL 149 (4-10-4-5-4)
8. Mikko Koivu, MIN 122 (3-5-8-4-5)
9. P.J. Axelsson, BOS 106 (1-10-4-1-3)
10. Daniel Alfredsson, OTT 92 (3-4-3-4-7)
11. Ryan Kesler, VAN 89 (0-5-5-9-2)

2008-2009 Frank Selke Trophy Voting
# Player Team PTS 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
1 Pavel Datsyuk DET 945 55 48 8 5 4
2 Mike Richards PHI 942 61 42 6 2 2
3 Ryan Kesler VAN 290 1 9 33 14 10

2009-2010 Frank Selke Trophy Voting, Top 20 Finishers
# Player Team PTS 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
1 Datsyuk Pavel DET 688 37 26 21 8 7
2 Kesler Ryan VAN 655 36 26 15 10 8
3 Staal Jordan PIT 528 24 17 21 19 7
4 Toews Jonathan CHI 408 17 15 19 10 8
5 Bergeron Patrice BOS 185 8 8 4 8 5
6 Zajac Travis NJ 73 0 5 3 6 5
7 Richards Mike PHI 71 2 3 4 1 7

I think if you drew up a quick graph relating Selke voting to short-handed goals, you might find the results a little disconcerting. Feel free to continue using it as gospel, when debating defensive abilities, though.So lets see, with about the same skill linemates (arguably) they are on pace for about the same points, Richards has had the better career (so far) and at least to most people (people who vote for Selke + fans on here) is inferior defensively.Frequency Strength Line Combination
24.98% EV 15 NODL,ANDREAS (http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=5771) - 18 RICHARDS,MIKE - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES (http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=6041)

Frequency Strength Line Combination
22.13% EV 17 KESLER,RYAN - 21 RAYMOND,MASON (http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=4763) - 26 SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL (http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=1698)So i'm going to say Kesler is currently the better player, Richards has had the better career. EDIT: same with Toews, except i'd say Kesler is far better defensively.You really caught me off guard with that. I thought you were going to say something completely ridiculous.

There is an up to date poll with Richards vs. Kesler which Richards won by fair and now a Kesler vs. Toews poll, so I figured I'd make this.

Who out of these 3 is the best player ?

Toews is by far better than richards. mike sucks

I think the rather obvious point that 5 > 4 seems to have escaped you.

It's a little damning when the bulk of Kesler's production comes with a man advantage, and with two players currently on target to each score over 100 points. However, the fact Richards' primary method of scoring comes while his team's at a disadvantage (read: while on the penalty-kill) and that he continues to keep pace with Kesler is just as testament to his consistency, and offensive talent.You realize that scoring league-wide tends to trend downwards as teams gear up for the playoffs, and that Kesler currently has a 16.88 shooting percentage, which is right around where Burrows was the previous two seasons (before crashing down to normalcy). The guy's a PRIME candidate to see his production diminish over the final stretch.Richards is rebounding to 70+ points (a plateau which he's already reached twice in his career) because of Claude Giroux who spends less time on Richards' wing than either Andreas Nodl, Nikholai Zherdev, or James Van Riemsdyk, to say nothing of Kesler's circumstances. I think I read that right.2007-2008 Frank Selke Trophy Voting, Top 20 Finishers
# Player Team PTS 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
1. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 537 (43-9-7-3-0)
2. John Madden, N.J. 447 (18-18-16-17-10)
3. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 425 (22-20-6-10-5)
4. Patrick Sharp, CHI 290 (10-14-13-8-3)
5. Mike Richards, PHI 220 (10-6-6-13-9)
6. Samuel Pahlsson, ANA 163 (7-6-7-3-7)
7. Brenden Morrow, DAL 149 (4-10-4-5-4)
8. Mikko Koivu, MIN 122 (3-5-8-4-5)
9. P.J. Axelsson, BOS 106 (1-10-4-1-3)
10. Daniel Alfredsson, OTT 92 (3-4-3-4-7)
11. Ryan Kesler, VAN 89 (0-5-5-9-2)

2008-2009 Frank Selke Trophy Voting
# Player Team PTS 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
1 Pavel Datsyuk DET 945 55 48 8 5 4
2 Mike Richards PHI 942 61 42 6 2 2
3 Ryan Kesler VAN 290 1 9 33 14 10

2009-2010 Frank Selke Trophy Voting, Top 20 Finishers
# Player Team PTS 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
1 Datsyuk Pavel DET 688 37 26 21 8 7
2 Kesler Ryan VAN 655 36 26 15 10 8
3 Staal Jordan PIT 528 24 17 21 19 7
4 Toews Jonathan CHI 408 17 15 19 10 8
5 Bergeron Patrice BOS 185 8 8 4 8 5
6 Zajac Travis NJ 73 0 5 3 6 5
7 Richards Mike PHI 71 2 3 4 1 7

I think if you drew up a quick graph relating Selke voting to short-handed goals, you might find the results a little disconcerting. Feel free to continue using it as gospel, when debating defensive abilities, though.Frequency Strength Line Combination
24.98% EV 15 NODL,ANDREAS (http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=5771) - 18 RICHARDS,MIKE - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES (http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=6041)

Frequency Strength Line Combination
22.13% EV 17 KESLER,RYAN - 21 RAYMOND,MASON (http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=4763) - 26 SAMUELSSON,MIKAEL (http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=1698)You really caught me off guard with that. I thought you were going to say something completely ridiculous.

Nicely done. It won't matter though, the Kesler zealots aren't reasonable right now.

The worst part of all of this is that I'd love to have Kesler in orange & black right now. He'd be incredible with Richie, but the Kesler zealots will somehow make it out that I'm knocking him by not going along with this notion that somehow he's better than Richie despite all evidence to the contrary.

Toews is by far better than richards. mike sucks

Yeah, his numbers this year and in the past indicate that :sarcasm:

Again? :laugh:

just like last season. but nice

:facepalm: I love Giroux but he isn't close to as talented as either of the Sedin's, let alone both of them at once.

As for the Selke, I Richards had the most first place Selke votes two years ago, and didn't get as many votes last year primarily due to poor offensive performance.

kesler plays with tambellini/raymond/samuelsson/hansen.

those arent the best linemates, and yes he does get pp time with the sedins, but richards plays with better players regularily

hardly worth a comment

kesler plays with tambellini/raymond/samuelsson/hansen.

those arent the best linemates, and yes he does get pp time with the sedins, but richards plays with better players regularily

hardly worth a comment

He plays with Andreas Nodl and JVR ...

Kesler is currently on pace to score 45 goals, 14 more than Richards has ever scored, and 11 more than Toews has ever scored. I wouldn't be surprised if Kesler hit 50 though.

I still think it's Toews, Richards, Kesler... but Kesler is being underrated in this thread. The guy has been far more dominant this season than either Toews or Richards. +40 goals most likely with Selke calibre two-way play. Now he needs to back it up with a strong post-season performance.

lol @ calling me a Kesler zealot...

Meh.

Kesler is overall better this year, better defensively, and fairly close offensively although Richards is arguably better offensively.

Depends again on what we're counting. Career? Richards. This year? Kesler. Pretty sure we can ignore Toews. Although Toews has a cup so he kind of wins by being most successful so far.

Richards is better overall, defensively, offensively, hitting you name it.

Kesler is no match.

Kesler is a tremendous hockey player. Toews is as well. But:

I remember listening to the radio in Pittsburgh, and they were interviewing Asham right after he signed here, and they asked about the 0-3 series comeback against Boston. They asked him what the turning point was, when they knew they were going to win. His response was that turning point was actually early in game 3 when Richards drilled Krejci and dislocated his wrist.

That's what separates Mike Richards from the other two.

Richards is better overall, defensively, offensively, hitting you name it.

Kesler is no match.

This is typical eastern conference bias.

How much Kesler have you seen?

It's after midnight in the east when Kesler is in the 3rd period of his games. I would imagine you're in bed sleeeping at this time.

Im not saying he is better, but to say he no match, speaks to how much you have seen.

Kesler is probably just as good on the PK (maybe not as cashing the SHG), is a better net presence....I think Toews gets the puck to the net better than both Kesler and Richards though.

Speed and size belongs to Kesler as well.


Lets just say all 3 a very good players.

Based on what the three players have done so far in their careers, you have to give the edge to Richards (better career numbers) and Toews (cup).

But PHI and CHI fans, let's be real here. Kesler has been better this year than either Richards or Toews if you've actually watched all three play.

If Kesler keeps up this kind of play for the rest of this year and beyond (a big if), then that would make him better than either Toews or Richards.... although I think Toews still has more upside to go.... so at the very least it would make Kesler better than Richards.

Kesler has also taken more time to develop compared to Toews and Richards, so it's meaningless to put too much weight into Kesler's early years. He has improved noticeably every single year in the league, whereas someone like Richards has pretty much flat-lined.

In two years time, I am willing to bet good money.... Kesler will be the one winning this poll. His defensive skills are pretty much on-par now with Datsyuk who I rate ahead of both Richards and Toews. In that category, I see Richards as better than Toews.

Kesler's wrist shot is also better than either Toews or Richards.... it's getting to the point where his shot is def. top 10 and closing in on top 5 in the league.

And his size and speed combination is something that Richards could only dream of having.

If you're a PHI or CHI fan who has watched all three play regularly and would be willing to keep your own biases aside, you'd agree with all this.

Richards has more points then either of them .. Kesler is having a good year but Richards isn't a goal scorer as much of a passer so comparing goals is stupid.

Richards has more points then either of them .. Kesler is having a good year but Richards isn't a goal scorer as much of a passer so comparing goals is stupid.

Richards: 50GP 17G 30A 47P
Kesler: 49GP 27G 20A 47P

???

Unless you meant career?

This season, Kesler.

Richards is better overall, defensively, offensively, hitting you name it.


He's really not though.

Richards has more points then either of them .. Kesler is having a good year but Richards isn't a goal scorer as much of a passer so comparing goals is stupid.

That's not true.... not for this year at least. Last I checked, Kesler was top 15 in the league in points and Richards wasn't on that list (actually I just checked it again and it looks like Richards is 15th and Kesler is 13th). Moreover, like I said in my comments.... you have to watch the three play. I have. I have NHL on Center Ice and watch tons of hockey everyday (since I'm retired). Points never tell the whole story.

Kesler has been absolutely dominant at both ends of the ice. I've seen him play games where he scores 2 or 3 goals and flat-out prevents another 2 or 3 goals. Richards has been good, but Kesler has been at another level.

And like I said... it remains to be seen whether Kesler can keep it up over the long haul. If he does, then he's better than Richards.

He's really not though.

Yea he pretty much is. GL though.

That's not true.... not for this year at least. Last I checked, Kesler was top 15 in the league in points and Richards wasn't on that list (actually I just checked it again and it looks like Richards is 15th and Kesler is 13th). Moreover, like I said in my comments.... you have to watch the three play. I have. I have NHL on Center Ice and watch tons of hockey everyday (since I'm retired). Points never tell the whole story.

Kesler has been absolutely dominant at both ends of the ice. I've seen him play games where he scores 2 or 3 goals and flat-out prevents another 2 or 3 goals. Richards has been good, but Kesler has been at another level.

And like I said... it remains to be seen whether Kesler can keep it up over the long haul. If he does, then he's better than Richards.

It bothers some when their preconceived notions about players based upon stats from their first few seasons becomes at odds with reality. Right now, this season, Ryan Kesler has been a more dominant player than the other two. That could change as there are 30 games to go and playoffs but, to this point, Ryan Kesler has been better in both ends of the rink than the other two players.

He hits more. Plays against toughest opposition (check tough sledding stats). Scores more. Better TA/GA ratio. That is factual but will not necessarily fit with some people's perceptions. That is fine. Everyone is allowed one.

It bothers some when their preconceived notions about players based upon stats from their first few seasons becomes at odds with reality. Right now, this season, Ryan Kesler has been a more dominant player than the other two. That could change as there are 30 games to go and playoffs but, to this point, Ryan Kesler has been better in both ends of the rink than the other two players.

He hits more. Plays against toughest opposition (check tough sledding stats). Scores more. Better TA/GA ratio. That is factual but will not necessarily fit with some people's perceptions. That is fine. Everyone is allowed one.


Are you retarded? He plays against tougher people? He's on Vancouver's second line playing against teams 2nd pairing. Richards faces the other teams shut down center every game and 1st pairing. Your argument is dumb. Richards is also better defensively. But yet again I think Kesler is a lot better than Toews and he's right there, I mean right there with Richards.

Are you retarded? He plays against tougher people? He's on Vancouver's second line playing against teams 2nd pairing. Richards faces the other teams shut down center every game and 1st pairing. Your argument is dumb. Richards is also better defensively. But yet again I think Kesler is a lot better than Toews and he's right there, I mean right there with Richards.

Kesler has been playing top D pairings all year

Kesler has been playing top D pairings all year

Yeah, I bet while the Sedins are playing against other teams second pairing right ? :laugh:

Yeah, I bet while the Sedins are playing against other teams second pairing right ? :laugh:

They both are. When the top pairing focuses on the Sedins, Kesler gets the goals. When they focus on Kesler, the Sedins get the goals.

Kesler has been playing top D pairings all year

I'm not sure who Kesler plays, but even trying to convince us that teams put their top pairing against Kesler instead of the Sedins...it's just insanity.

Why would anyone put their top pairing on Kesler as opposed to the Sedins?

Are you retarded? He plays against tougher people? He's on Vancouver's second line playing against teams 2nd pairing. Richards faces the other teams shut down center every game and 1st pairing. Your argument is dumb. Richards is also better defensively. But yet again I think Kesler is a lot better than Toews and he's right there, I mean right there with Richards.

I would agree that it's a dumb argument. It doesn't work when comparing Kesler and Richards. They are both the go-to-guys in terms of shutting down the other team's top players.

I think Kesler is slightly better defensively though.

Once again though, it's too early to tout Kesler as being better than Richards. At this point, Richards still gets the edge.

Kesler needs to prove it by maintaining his current level of play for a much longer period of time, especially in the playoffs.

No question though.... if I were a GM, I would much rather have Kesler right now than Richards.... without even considering the cap advantage of Kesler over Richards.

This year. Kesler.

Career wise. Richards.

Toews is 3rd.

Because they're both scoring threats and Kesler has as many goals as Daniel Sedin does this year, the 4th most in the league.

Edit: quote isn't working... this is to Brindamour

Looking at their whole careers, Richards for now. The only area that I can think of that the other two clearly beat Richards in is the face-off circle.

But you have two huge scoring threats as opposed to one scoring threat. Why not logically put the top pairing on the two?

Henrik is mostly a set up guy, he's got like 10 goals this year. Both lines have been facing top pairings all year.

When in doubt, throw out the argument "you don't watch them enough."

NAME TEAM QUALCOMP QUALTEAM
RYANKESLER VAN -0.007 0.044
MIKERICHARDS PHI 0.028 0.004

The only problem there is you run the risk of over-exposure.

My suggestion is you take a step back, and consider the facts objectively, because as it stands right now Kesler isn't as good as Richards (at certain aspects of the game). There's no telling if he'll ever get there, either.

Similarly, there's no telling if Richards will ever be a true shutdown center the way Pahlsson was for the Ducks, or if he'll go his entire career being an elite two-way center. He'll outscore Kesler annually, and leave players checking for Scott Stevens on their way to the bench. But, speaking only of his defensive ability, Kesler has him beat.

Are you retarded? He plays against tougher people? He's on Vancouver's second line playing against teams 2nd pairing. Richards faces the other teams shut down center every game and 1st pairing. Your argument is dumb. Richards is also better defensively. But yet again I think Kesler is a lot better than Toews and he's right there, I mean right there with Richards.

Kesler plays against teams top lines, meaning defense is Kesler's first priority, Kesler still manages to be 3 rd in goals this year. Also what makes Richards better defensively going by the stats and watching both of them play I say Kesler is better defensively.

This question is tough because it really depends how much you value playoff/pressure position performances compared to the regular season. If I heavily favor pressure situations, I take Toews. If I favor the recent regular seasons, I take Kesler. For now, I'll take Toews. This could very well change after this playoffs, though.

This question is tough because it really depends how much you value playoff/pressure position performances compared to the regular season. If I heavily favor pressure situations, I take Toews. If I favor the recent regular seasons, I take Kesler. For now, I'll take Toews. This could very well change after this playoffs, though.

These three are all studs defensively, and offensively, however you can only separate them by evaluating they're play when it matters most:the playoffs.

Toews-only 22+playoff and olympic beast
Richards-Short handed beast, hard hitting scorer
Kesler-Still has lots to proove, in the post season,''injured or not''

Are you retarded? He plays against tougher people? He's on Vancouver's second line playing against teams 2nd pairing. Richards faces the other teams shut down center every game and 1st pairing. Your argument is dumb. Richards is also better defensively. But yet again I think Kesler is a lot better than Toews and he's right there, I mean right there with Richards.

If you are going to insult someone, at least have the decency to look up the tough sledding stats....Kesler near top of league in level of opponent faced.

Gotta go, got a "dumb" support group to get to.....:shakehead

Based on hardware, Richards = Toews > Kesler.

In terms of playing ability, Kesler > Richards > Toews. This is coming from a huge Mike Richards fan. I wish Eastern fans would stay up a little later so they could see how much better Kesler is than Richards. Kesler is better defensively, offensively, you name it. Richards is a better passer tho, I'll give him that.

btw, love that you guys give credit to shorthanded points. not that they're bad or anything, it's just that they're hardly indicators of defensive ability. patrick sharp scores a lot of shorthanded points but he's an average penalty killer. one could say that by going for shorthanded opportunities, they're taking more risks and potentially pinching at the wrong times.

Based on hardware, Richards = Toews > Kesler.

In terms of playing ability, Kesler > Richards > Toews. This is coming from a huge Mike Richards fan. I wish Eastern fans would stay up a little later so they could see how much better Kesler is than Richards. Kesler is better defensively, offensively, you name it. Richards is a better passer tho, I'll give him that.

I have center ice and watch Kesler. He is not better than Richards. Especially not offensively, maybe when Kesler has a full PPG year he can be in the same class as Richards :shakehead

Are you retarded? He plays against tougher people? He's on Vancouver's second line playing against teams 2nd pairing. Richards faces the other teams shut down center every game and 1st pairing. Your argument is dumb. Richards is also better defensively. But yet again I think Kesler is a lot better than Toews and he's right there, I mean right there with Richards.

I'm pretty sure he meant playing against tougher players offensively. Kesler always matches up against the opposition's best offensive line...

Anyways this year Kesler has had the best season
1) Kesler 2) Richards 3) Toews.

I think Richards is the more proven player though for sure.

It's close between Richards and Kesler. Toews isn't even in the conversation until he can prove that he can even get over 70 points in a season. Seriously, before the year started EVERYONE was claiming that he'd easily get over 70 this year, and be closer to 90 points. But yet again hes floating around 68 points in 82 games pace.

Offensively 1) Richards 2) Kesler 3) Toews
Defensively 1) Kesler 2) Richards 3) Toews (not really close)

What has Kesler done to be so much better defensively than Richards? Has Kesler ever been top 2 in Selke voting ?(no pun just wondering)

I'm an Oilers fan that watches both extensively, and am even slightly inclined to hate Kesler.

That being said, I think Kesler has overtaken Richards in the past 12 months as the better player. The points are there, the defensive play is there, and the size/speed factor help him add that extra element to his game that Richards doesn't have.

Trust me, I really like Mike Richards, and I've always fought for him in this argument - but the way Kesler's elevated his game this year has been downright scary. I know he's got a lot of PP points, but you'd be surprised at how much he dominates at even strength.

What has Kesler done to be so much better defensively than Richards? Has Kesler ever been top 2 in Selke voting ?(no pun just wondering)
:help:

What has Kesler done to be so much better defensively than Richards? Has Kesler ever been top 2 in Selke voting ?(no pun just wondering)

Yes, yes he has, actually it was just last season Kesler finished second in Selke votes to Datsyuk.

Yes, yes he has, actually it was just last season Kesler finished second in Selke votes to Datsyuk.

Same with Richards, missed by 3 votes(2009), so defense is a wash. Offensively Richards is superior. The goal argument is baseless seeing as Richards is a pass first player(PPG 2 out of last 3 years, something Kesler or Toews has yet to do).

Same with Richards, missed by 3 votes(2009), so defense is a wash. Offensively Richards is superior. The goal argument is baseless seeing as Richards is a pass first player(PPG 2 out of last 3 years, something Kesler or Toews has yet to do).

So 'cause they've both been second in Selke votting, that makes them "a wash defensively" By that logic Jose Theodore is better than Luongo, 'cause he has 1 Hart Trophy opposed to Luongo's none.

So 'cause they've both been second in Selke votting, that makes them "a wash defensively" By that logic Jose Theodore is better than Luongo, 'cause he has 1 Hart Trophy opposed to Luongo's none.

Ok give me some reasons why Kesler is better than Richards defensively? It's funny how you ignored my offensive statistics by the way.

Same with Richards, missed by 3 votes(2009), so defense is a wash. Offensively Richards is superior. The goal argument is baseless seeing as Richards is a pass first player(PPG 2 out of last 3 years, something Kesler or Toews has yet to do).
How is it baseless? Kesler is a better goal-scorer than Richards. That's a strong argument in his favour.

Kesler was a pass-first player last season and put up as many assists as Richards ever has. This season, he's scoring goals, and his impact has risen.

Ok give me some reasons why Kesler is better than Richards defensively? It's funny how you ignored my offensive statistics by the way.

Defensive Stats only:

Plus Minus:

Kesler- +18
Richards- +14

Edge-Kesler

Blocked Shoots:

Kesler-50
Richards-49

Edge:Kesler

PK Ice-time per game:

Kesler-2.23 Minutes
Richards-2.15

Edge-Kesler

Home FaceOff Win%:

Kesler-58.09
Richards-51.56

Edge-Kesler

Road FaceOff Win%

Kesler-55.02
Richards-47.33

Edge: Kelser

Take Aways:

Kesler-41
Richards-38
Edge-Kesler

And the list goes on and to the people who say "Richards is way more physical"

Hits

Kesler-77
Richards-65

And to your offensive point, where you say Richards is more of a pass first guy well coming into this season Kesler and Rcihards career high in assists we're even at 50 each.

Defensive Stats only:

Plus Minus:

Kesler- +18
Richards- +14

Edge-Kesler

Blocked Shoots:

Kesler-50
Richards-49

Edge:Kesler

PK Ice-time per game:

Kesler-2.23 Minutes
Richards-2.15

Edge-Kesler

Home FaceOff Win%:

Kesler-58.09
Richards-51.56

Edge-Kesler

Road FaceOff Win%

Kesler-55.02
Richards-47.33

Edge: Kelser

Take Aways:

Kesler-41
Richards-38
Edge-Kesler

And the list goes on and to the people who say "Richards is way more physical"

Hits

Kesler-77
Richards-65

And to your offensive point, where you say Richards is more of a pass first guy well coming into this season Kesler and Rcihards career high in assists we're even at 50 each.

Why don't you look over the stats you just posted, aside from faceoffs (BTW I love how you separate them into home and away so it looks like Kesler beats him in two categories) it essentially is a wash statistically.

Why don't you look over the stats you just posted, aside from faceoffs (BTW I love how you separate them into home and away so it looks like Kesler beats him in two categories) it essentially is a wash statistically.

:laugh:

You noticed that, too?

They're even defensively. As even as two players can be. Richards is more dangerous SH, Kesler is clearly better on faceoffs (this is the one big weak spot in Richie's game).

I love the "Kesler is a better goal-scorer than Richards" comment as well, seeing as how Richards has multiple 30 goal seasons and Kesler doesn't.

Kesler is having a strong season (as is Richards, btw) and Nucks fans are excited. I get it. Time will tell if this is a flukey career year (even Kelser's 09-10 season, his best so far, which Nucks fans love to cite, was an AVERAGE season for Richards) or something more.

To declare Kesler a better goal-scorer based on FIFTY (50!) games when they've both played more than 400 is ridiculously premature, let alone a better player (seeing as how Richards is a PPG player in the PLAYOFFS and Kesler isn't.)

Why don't you look over the stats you just posted, aside from faceoffs (BTW I love how you separate them into home and away so it looks like Kesler beats him in two categories) it essentially is a wash statistically.

Actually on the site I was viewing it didn't show FO percent as a whole, just Home and Away so I apologies for that. Yes Kesler and Richards maybe close in all those departments, but at the end of the day Kesler is better.

Actually on the site I was viewing it didn't show FO percent as a whole, just Home and Away so I apologies for that. Yes Kesler and Richards maybe close in all those departments, but at the end of the day Kesler is better.

:laugh: I love Kesler but you're just being a homer now. The above post totally just proved you and your numbers wrong, so good day.

I love the "Kesler is a better goal-scorer than Richards" comment as well, seeing as how Richards has multiple 30 goal seasons and Kesler doesn't.
If Kesler continues his pace, he'll have a 40-goal season, which Richards doesn't.

Kesler is having a strong season (as is Richards, btw) and Nucks fans are excited. I get it. Time will tell if this is a flukey career year (even Kelser's 09-10 season, his best so far, which Nucks fans love to cite, was an AVERAGE season for Richards) or something more.

Kesler is really starting to string together these fluky career years.

:laugh: I love Kesler but you're just being a homer now. The above post totally just proved you and your numbers wrong, so good day.

How did the above post just prove my numbers wrong? If anything it proves my numbers worked, there not even defensively, yes they may be close but Kesler still has the edge in every department, making him better defensively,

How did the above post just prove my numbers wrong? If anything it proves my numbers worked, there not even defensively, yes they may be close but Kesler still has the edge in every department, making him better defensively,


Kesler has never been a PPG forward. Richards 2 out of the past 3 years not including this one (which he is only 3 points away from). This solves the argument of offensively, and Kesler can have his 40 goal season, still won't instantly make him better offensively than Richards. And sure you can believe that Kesler is better defensively because of stupid stats which isn't the whole point to proving somebody better defensively.

Richards has also lead his team to the ECF 2 out of the last 3 years and SCF last year. The only year in between they lost to the eventual cup champions. Richards is money in the playoffs, Kesler isn't.

Actually on the site I was viewing it didn't show FO percent as a whole, just Home and Away so I apologies for that. Yes Kesler and Richards maybe close in all those departments, but at the end of the day Kesler is better.

Well if you think having 1 more blocked shot, 7 more seconds of PK time, and 3 more takeaways makes Kesler definitely better defensively than Richards, then go right ahead. To me, this is a perfect example of HF's infatuation with stats. Those stats, for all intents and purposes, are a wash.

Richards
Kesler

Toews

Kesler, cause he's already on my team, and hes playing great.

If Kesler continues his pace, he'll have a 40-goal season, which Richards doesn't.

Kesler is really starting to string together these fluky career years.

Johnathan Cheechoo has a 50 goal season. He must be a better goal-scorer than Richards...IN THE AHL!

Kesler had a Richardsian season LAST YEAR, the first time he had such a year.

This is the FIRST year Kesler has scored like this, in his SIXTH full NHL season. It could totally be a fluke and Nuck fans are just being irrational for being upset with us for thinking so, or it is possible that he could have found another gear. We won't be able to discern that for at least another YEAR of this type of production.

Yeah, we get it, the trend has been great, but the fact that he gets 40 % of his points on the power play with two proven PPG players is suspicious, to say the least. The fact that Richards has scored in all situations with everyone imaginable over the course of several years speaks to the fact that he's not doing this because of Giroux or whoever else. Richards is just that good and he's proven it, time and again. Kesler hasn't.

It also doesn't help your cause when you guys blindly refuse to acknowledge that these guys are both arguably two of the top 3 two-way forwards in the league, that both have nearly won Selke's, that they are pretty much EVEN defensively and post stats that completely and totally reflect that conclusion but then go out of your way to try to claim otherwise.

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/image.php?productid=655474

It's a tossup between Toews and Richards. Kesler is clearly inferior to both.


qft.

Johnathan Cheechoo has a 50 goal season. He must be a better goal-scorer than Richards...IN THE AHL!

Kesler had a Richardsian season LAST YEAR, the first time he had such a year.

This is the FIRST year Kesler has scored like this, in his SIXTH full NHL season. It could totally be a fluke and Nuck fans are just being irrational for being upset with us for thinking so, or it is possible that he could have found another gear. We won't be able to discern that for at least another YEAR of this type of production.

Yeah, we get it, the trend has been great, but the fact that he gets 40 % of his points on the power play with two proven PPG players is suspicious, to say the least. The fact that Richards has scored in all situations with everyone imaginable over the course of several years speaks to the fact that he's not doing this because of Giroux or whoever else. Richards is just that good and he's proven it, time and again. Kesler hasn't.

It also doesn't help your cause when you guys blindly refuse to acknowledge that these guys are both arguably two of the top 3 two-way forwards in the league, that both have nearly won Selke's, that they are pretty much EVEN defensively and post stats that completely and totally reflect that conclusion but then go out of your way to try to claim otherwise.

I don't think those comments are fair. From rookie year onwards, Kesler was earmarked for the 3rd and 4th line and given checking role duties. He never had a chance to play a scoring role for us.

It was not until around Jan. of 2009 when he finally got moved up to the second line as a winger that his role changed into a scoring one.

He promptly finished the remainder of that season putting up 34 points (17 goals and 17 assists) in 34 games. That's a 40+goal season pace. He was scoring goals that year because he had Demitra and Sundin who could both pass (never mind that both were washed up and Kesler was the one who had to carry that line).

Last year, he put up 75 points in 82 games but scored only 25 goals because his linemates were Raymond and Samuelsson.... neither are good passers.... so Kesler adapted his game to be the playmaker (which he did successfully by putting up 50 assists).

This year, he's getting some time with the Sedins on the PP (something he didn't get last year). That time with better playmakers has allowed him to score at a 40+goal pace once again.

So the reality is.... ever since Kesler was put in a scoring role in Jan. 2009, he has never failed to put up a PPG pace.... 34 points in 34 games..... 75 points in 82 games.... and this year 47 points in 50 games (unlike Richards who last year put up only 62 points in 82 games).

And the other reality is.... Kesler can score AND pass. He adapts his game based on the linemates he's given. When he has playmakers, he'll score. If he has guys who can't pass, he'll do the passing. Boy, if he ever got linemates who could do both.... you'd be seeing an 90-95 point season from him.

And boy, if you've actually seen Kesler's amazing wrist shot, you wouldn't be casting doubt on his goal scoring ability the way you're doing. It's a friggin' laser beam. You could only wish Richards could have such a shot.

Canucks fan saying Richards, Toews, Kesler. It's pretty close though between the three of them. Very hard to choose.

Kesler has never been a PPG forward. Richards 2 out of the past 3 years not including this one (which he is only 3 points away from). This solves the argument of offensively, and Kesler can have his 40 goal season, still won't instantly make him better offensively than Richards. And sure you can believe that Kesler is better defensively because of stupid stats which isn't the whole point to proving somebody better defensively.

Richards has also lead his team to the ECF 2 out of the last 3 years and SCF last year. The only year in between they lost to the eventual cup champions. Richards is money in the playoffs, Kesler isn't.

Wait so you say stats aren't a fair way of judging who's better defensively, but use them to argue Richards is better offensively :help:

With another strong leader on the team, I'd take Kesler. Otherwise I'd go with Richards. Toews is definitely my last of the 3

Wait so you say stats aren't a fair way of judging who's better defensively, but use them to argue Richards is better offensively :help:

Yes, what else would you use to judge offense? :laugh: The stats you came up with for defense weren't even far between the 2 players and you used stupid stats. Why don't you use that they both were 2nd in Selke voting and say it's a wash and leave it at that.

Yes, what else would you use to judge offense? :laugh: The stats you came up with for defense weren't even far between the 2 players and you used stupid stats. Why don't you use that they both were 2nd in Selke voting and say it's a wash and leave it at that.

'Cause they're not a wash, I would admit it if it was true but it's not, I'm not saying Kesler and Richards aren't close defensively, 'cause that would be idiotic, what I'm trying to say is my stats prove Kesler is slightly better defensively.

As far as offense goes, yes Richards has outperformed Kesler on a regular basis, but in the last couple of years Kesler has been just as good if not better offensively, but I'll give Richards the slight edge in that department.

Also how are my Stats "stupid"? Are they're any better ways to compare players defensively in terms of statistics? I don't think so

Richards, Toews, Kesler

Yea, this is the order I would put them in. It is closed between Richards and Toews though.

Ryan Kesler

Based on hardware, Richards = Toews > Kesler.

In terms of playing ability, Kesler > Richards > Toews. This is coming from a huge Mike Richards fan. I wish Eastern fans would stay up a little later so they could see how much better Kesler is than Richards. Kesler is better defensively, offensively, you name it. Richards is a better passer tho, I'll give him that.

Location: Vancouver :laugh:

Richards
Toews



Kesler

Just like the majority of you

'Cause they're not a wash, I would admit it if it was true but it's not, I'm not saying Kesler and Richards aren't close defensively, 'cause that would be idiotic, what I'm trying to say is my stats prove Kesler is slightly better defensively.

As far as offense goes, yes Richards has outperformed Kesler on a regular basis, but in the last couple of years Kesler has been just as good if not better offensively, but I'll give Richards the slight edge in that department.

Also how are my Stats "stupid"? Are they're any better ways to compare players defensively in terms of statistics? I don't think so

Again the fact that you are using stats, not to mention stats that are basically a wash, to argue that Kesler is better defensively is absurd. You can't use stats as the be all end all for defensive play (which is exactly what you are doing), you have to actually watch them play.

If you actually read the whole thread you I mentioned I watched both a lot, and came to the conclusion Kesler was better defensively, the other poster didn't by it, he told me to "Ok give me some reasons why Kesler is better than Richards defensively?" and I countered with my stats.

Like I said before I know my stats are fairly close, and almost a wash but at the end of the day Kesler has the slight edge in all of the categories, making him slightly better defensively.

Location: Vancouver :laugh:

Wait, you had to look at his location to figure out he's a Canucks fan? When he has an obvious Kesler avatar? I just found this to be odd.

If you actually read the whole thread you I mentioned I watched both a lot, and came to the conclusion Kesler was better defensively, the other poster didn't by it, he told me to "Ok give me some reasons why Kesler is better than Richards defensively?" and I countered with my stats.

Like I said before I know my stats are fairly close, and almost a wash but at the end of the day Kesler has the slight edge in all of the categories, making him slightly better defensively.

I think it goes

Toews=Richards
-
Kesler

Kesler must proove himself in teh playoffs and not get flustered or make excuses, players easily get under his skin, he's very weak mentally, Ladd maybe gave him the biggest owning of the century last year in that department.

Toews=GP-270-G100-Pts231
Playoffs-GP-39=42points
Face-offs=59%
Was voted 4th in selke voting last year

Richards=GP422-G127=330Pts
Playoffs-GP-52=43pts
Face-offs=50%
Had a second place selke voting

Kesler=GP452-G117=262pts
Playoffs-GP23=14pts
Face-offs=57%
Had a 2nd place selke voting, and third

It's not that Kesler was *forced* to play on the 3rd and 4th lines* he wasn't good enough offensively at the time.

It's not that Kesler was *forced* to play on the 3rd and 4th lines* he wasn't good enough offensively at the time.

Okay?

Yeah, at that time his offensive game wasn't quite as developed as it is now, but what the hell do his first few years have to do with his current play?

I guess Sedins aren't first line players because of their first four years. I guess Keith shouldn't be considered a top d-man because of his first couple years. It's the same as saying Kesler shouldn't be compared to these players because of his earlier seasons, which is what I'm getting from reading your post.

Also how are my Stats "stupid"? Are they're any better ways to compare players defensively in terms of statistics? I don't think so

I would use GA/60 over Plus / Minus but that's just me.

Kesler GA/60 = 1.63
Richards GA/60 = 2.22

That is a fairly significant difference actually.

As for the debate as a whole, you have to give the nod to Richards who has had a much better career to this point.

Kesler needs another good season and playoff run to catch up to MR, once that happens (if it does) then this becomes a lot closer.

That said, IMO Kesler has been the better of the 2 this season. His defensive game is better and while their point totals are similar Kesler has 10 more goals and I would take 10 goals over 10 assists any day.

If you actually read the whole thread you I mentioned I watched both a lot, and came to the conclusion Kesler was better defensively, the other poster didn't by it, he told me to "Ok give me some reasons why Kesler is better than Richards defensively?" and I countered with my stats.

Like I said before I know my stats are fairly close, and almost a wash but at the end of the day Kesler has the slight edge in all of the categories, making him slightly better defensively.

An edge that "slight" isn't an edge at all. The difference in numbers is statistically insignificant across the board, aside from faceoff % - which Kesler does indeed have an actual edge in vs. Richards.

The real problem with those defensive numbers is that different arena's score those things differently.

Kesler, like any of his Vancouver teammates, is an inferior player in any direct comparison. Any on ice success for any of their players or their team is not related to actual talent. Scoring more than another player or being judged as better defensively, for example, is only applicable if it doesn't apply to the Vancouver player.

This I have learned from HFBoards. The same goes for players from Florida, Carolina and Dallas. Players from Philadelphia are immediately better no matter what the comparison. No need for any poll as that is simply the way it is.

As far as Toews, he automatically wins any poll just from intangibles. His 60ish points will be equivalent to someone else scoring 110 or so and he should be judged in that way. If he gets 70 points, he should be awarded Art Ross as he is clearly got another 50 intangible points.

What I love is how Richie is winning this poll, while in the Richards/Kesler/Zetterberg poll he barely got a vote, coming in a distant 3rd well behind Kesler, as Zetterberg ran away with it of course. Says something about the homerism going on in Kesler polls.

Even Oilers fans are picking Kesler. And they hate the Canucks, and Kesler.

By the way, Kesler made the all-star game and Richards didn't.

Even Oilers fans are picking Kesler. And they hate the Canucks, and Kesler.

By the way, Kesler made the all-star game and Richards didn't.

Take a look at the poll results. If you think they're all Philly fans you're nuts.

The all-star game selection literally means NOTHING. Richards is having a better season than quite a few of those all-stars, and is point for point with Kesler.

What I love is how Richie is winning this poll, while in the Richards/Kesler/Zetterberg poll he barely got a vote, coming in a distant 3rd well behind Kesler, as Zetterberg ran away with it of course. Says something about the homerism going on in Kesler polls.

May be a little late but yes...

/thread.

Kesler, like any of his Vancouver teammates, is an inferior player in any direct comparison. Any on ice success for any of their players or their team is not related to actual talent. Scoring more than another player or being judged as better defensively, for example, is only applicable if it doesn't apply to the Vancouver player.

This I have learned from HFBoards. The same goes for players from Florida, Carolina and Dallas. Players from Philadelphia are immediately better no matter what the comparison. No need for any poll as that is simply the way it is.

As far as Toews, he automatically wins any poll just from intangibles. His 60ish points will be equivalent to someone else scoring 110 or so and he should be judged in that way. If he gets 70 points, he should be awarded Art Ross as he is clearly got another 50 intangible points.

Spare me the "woe is me" act. It certainly does no favors for the reputation of Nucks fans.

You admitted that Nucks fans were getting ahead of themselves in the Zetterberg thread.

I haven't seen ANYONE slight Kesler at all. We've only merely pointed out that the type of production Kesler is achieving this season - particularly in goal scoring - is atypical of his career thus far, and that it is somewhat suspicious that he scores FORTY PERCENT of his points on the PP with the Sedins, meanwhile Richards scores as many of his points SHORT-HANDED (just think about that) as he does in any other combination. That the stats this season are largely a wash, and that both Kesler & Richards have come thisclose to winning a Selke. That Richards is an established 30 goal PPG forward and Kesler (to date) isn't. That both Richards & Toews were mentioned for the Conn-Smythe (with Toews winning it obviously) last season while Kesler has never even come close to that (for whatever reason). That both Richards & Kesler started off their careers as third-line centers, but that Richards earned a scoring line position earlier.

Ryan Kesler is a fantastic player and I wish that Vancouver wouldn't have matched that offer sheet several years back, but he just hasn't reached Richards yet (and he's LIGHTYEARS away from Zetterberg).

Why Nucks fans are getting their panties in a bunch for anything I've stated above is a complete mystery.

Spare me the "woe is me" act. It certainly does no favors for the reputation of Nucks fans.

You admitted that Nucks fans were getting ahead of themselves in the Zetterberg thread.

I haven't seen ANYONE slight Kesler at all. We've only merely pointed out that the type of production Kesler is achieving this season - particularly in goal scoring - is atypical of his career thus far, and that it is somewhat suspicious that he scores FORTY PERCENT of his points on the PP with the Sedins, meanwhile Richards scores as many of his points SHORT-HANDED (just think about that) as he does in any other combination. That the stats this season are largely a wash, and that both Kesler & Richards have come thisclose to winning a Selke. That Richards is an established 30 goal PPG forward and Kesler (to date) isn't. That both Richards & Toews were mentioned for the Conn-Smythe (with Toews winning it obviously) last season while Kesler has never even come close to that (for whatever reason). That both Richards & Kesler started off their careers as third-line centers, but that Richards earned a scoring line position earlier.

Ryan Kesler is a fantastic player and I wish that Vancouver wouldn't have matched that offer sheet several years back, but he just hasn't reached Richards yet (and he's LIGHTYEARS away from Zetterberg).

Why Nucks fans are getting their panties in a bunch for anything I've stated above is a complete mystery.

Hey you're pretty passionate about this, but i just wanna say that Kesler has 27 goals this year and richards has 17. i have a hard time believing richards will hit 30 again, but kesler only needs 3 goals in 32 games to hit the 30 mark. that's pretty good eh. by the way, richards has never been a ppg player over a full season. he always misses games. in that sense he's about as useful as marian gaborik.

i also think its funny that you mention both richards and toews were mentioned for the conn smythe but "Kesler has never even come close to that (for whatever reason)" yeah it's called playing for a good team, just like richards plays with better linemates than kesler ever will (at even stregnth, sedins are the best linemates in the nhl but pp doesn't really count).

The problem with Kesler is that if it weren't for H. Sedin, he'd be Vancouver top center and top defensive forward, something both Richards and Toews are on their respective teams.

Hey you're pretty passionate about this, but i just wanna say that Kesler has 27 goals this year and richards has 17. i have a hard time believing richards will hit 30 again, but kesler only needs 3 goals in 32 games to hit the 30 mark. that's pretty good eh. by the way, richards has never been a ppg player over a full season. he always misses games. in that sense he's about as useful as marian gaborik.

i also think its funny that you mention both richards and toews were mentioned for the conn smythe but "Kesler has never even come close to that (for whatever reason)" yeah it's called playing for a good team, just like richards plays with better linemates than kesler ever will (at even stregnth, sedins are the best linemates in the nhl but pp doesn't really count).

Holddddddd the phone.

1. Richards can most certainly hit 30 goals. His record shows that's what he typically gets, so we'll see. Either way, he'll be right around that number.

2. Richards has been OVER a PPG pace twice in his career. Not, it wasn't over 82 games. He missed 2 here or there. Ultimately, who cares? And I don't see the relevance as Kessler himself has never completed a PPG pace over an entire season.

3. Richards had one season where he was seriously injured, leaving him to only play 59 games. Every other season thus far, he's played 73 games and above. Useless?

4. Richards has good linemates, you're definitely right. Well, linemate...Andreas Nodl doesn't really qualify as good. However, Richards makes his line what it is, regardless of who is on his wing. He makes Nodl an NHL player somehow.

I would put a lot more weight into what nhl players who have to play against Kesler, Richards, and Toews actually think..... as opposed to the opinions of a couple of PHI homers like captain richie18 and mja.

Here are the results when nhl players were polled by CBC/NHLPA on this question http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/allstar/poll/skills/who-is-the-toughest-to-play-against/

Who is the toughest to play against?
(1) Sidney Crosby (29%)
(2) Pavel Datsyuk (19%)
(3) Alex Ovechkin (11%)
(4) Ryan Kesler (4%)
(5) Henrik Zetterberg (3%)

Notice who's in the top 5 and who isn't.

I would put a lot more weight into what nhl players who have to play against Kesler, Richards, and Toews actually think..... as opposed to the opinions of a couple of PHI homers like captain richie18 and mja.

Here are the results when nhl players were polled by CBC/NHLPA on this question http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/allstar/poll/skills/who-is-the-toughest-to-play-against/

Who is the toughest to play against?
(1) Sidney Crosby (29%)
(2) Pavel Datsyuk (19%)
(3) Alex Ovechkin (11%)
(4) Ryan Kesler (4%)
(5) Henrik Zetterberg (3%)

Notice who's in the top 5 and who isn't.

How many players polled were in the West as opposed to East? How many were in the Northwest Division?

Grain of salt.

How many players polled were in the West as opposed to East? How many were in the Northwest Division?

Grain of salt.

They didn't disclose the names of the players polled. But seeing that it was a poll done by CBC and the NHLPA.... both of whom are based in the East.... I would imagine they would have had easier access to Eastern Conference players if anything.

But I understand as a PHI fan, you want to believe what you want to believe. So it really won't matter what kind of facts or evidence I throw at you.... you'll find a way to dismiss it.

They didn't disclose the names of the players polled. But seeing that it was a poll done by CBC and the NHLPA.... both of whom are based in the East.... I would imagine they would have had easier access to Eastern Conference players if anything.

But I understand as a PHI fan, you want to believe what you want to believe. So it really won't matter what kind of facts or evidence I throw at you.

So you're saying because they're based in the East, they most likely polled the East? That makes sense, considering we don't have the ability to e-mail, write a letter or call people to make communication near instantaneous. Those three mediums of communication would make it much easier!

And as a Van fan, you can believe that a guy with a losing track record against Richards is definitely the better player while he's in the midst of a career year. During that year, btw, Richards is keeping pacing with Kesler statistically. Amazing.

Hey you're pretty passionate about this, but i just wanna say that Kesler has 27 goals this year and richards has 17. i have a hard time believing richards will hit 30 again, but kesler only needs 3 goals in 32 games to hit the 30 mark. that's pretty good eh. by the way, richards has never been a ppg player over a full season. he always misses games. in that sense he's about as useful as marian gaborik.

i also think its funny that you mention both richards and toews were mentioned for the conn smythe but "Kesler has never even come close to that (for whatever reason)" yeah it's called playing for a good team, just like richards plays with better linemates than kesler ever will (at even stregnth, sedins are the best linemates in the nhl but pp doesn't really count).

Dude...

2007-08 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 73 28 47 75
2008-09 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 79 30 50 80
2009-10 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 82 31 31 62

There are two PPG seasons in there (something Kesler hasn't actually ever done, though he was thisclose last year, with the third being a 30 goal seaosn. He's also at exactly the same PPG average THIS SEASON as Kesler. He's played in every game this season and he's averaged 78 games a year over 3 seasons prior. By the way, that 09 season was accomplished by Richards playing with not just one but two badly injured shoulders.

In all three of those seasons, Richards scored more goals than Kesler has in any season to date (with the obvious expectation that he finally reaches that plateau shortly.)

None of this takes into account that Richards is almost a PPG player in the PLAYOFFS, something Kesler isn't even close to.

And has been discussed ad nauseum, Richards' linemates are just as mediocre as Kesler's. He's got Andreas Nodl & JVR most of the time. In fact, Nodl has been the only really consistent winger Richards has played with at Even Strength. The other slot has been occupied by no less than 6 players, including an ineffective Jeff Carter, a sometime healthy scratch in Zherdev, a slow starting JVR, Eric freaking AHLer Wellwood, the noted scorer Dan Carcillo, in addition to Giroux, who is now firmly entrenched on another line with Carter.

Also, if you don't think being on the first PP unit with the Sedins is boosting Kesler's stats then you are just being irrational.

So you're saying because they're based in the East, they most likely polled the East? That makes sense, considering we don't have the ability to e-mail, write a letter or call people to make communication near instantaneous. Those three mediums of communication would make it much easier!

And as a Van fan, you can believe that a guy with a losing track record against Richards is definitely the better player while he's in the midst of a career year. During that year, btw, Richards is keeping pacing with Kesler statistically. Amazing.

I'm not saying that more Eastern Conference players were polled. I'm just saying that there's no reason to think more Western Conference players were polled.

You have to imagine that anyone who's conducting a poll of this magnitude and publicity would try to ensure the demographics would be pretty even between Eastern and Western conference players.

Losing track record? Kesler blew Richards point totals away pretty badly last year. Kesler = 75 points in 82 games. Richards = 62 points in 82 games.

Oh, btw.... didn't Kesler put up 3 points (2g, 1a) and +2 while Richards put up 0 points, -1..... the last time PHI and VAN played? So I don't understanding what you mean by losing track record.

If you want to count Kesler's early years while he was young and developing and playing on the third and fourth lines.... then that's fine. With that mindset, you can also argue Richards is better offensively than the Sedins who put up pathetic point totals in their early years.

Again, there's no point in debating with you. You'll always find a way to dismiss incriminating evidence and elevate not as relevant evidence (such as early year numbers).

And I won't trust my own opinion or your opinion. I'll just go with the nhl players and trust that Kesler is the 4th most toughest to play against in the league.

I'm not saying that more Eastern Conference players were polled. I'm just saying that there's no reason to think more Western Conference players were polled.

You have to imagine that anyone who's conducting a poll of this magnitude and publicity would try to ensure the demographics would be pretty even between Eastern and Western conference players.

:laugh: Magnitude and publicity. I seriously doubt anyone put a whole helluva lot of thought or effort into what is essentially a fluff piece.

Losing track record? Kesler blew Richards point totals away pretty badly last year. Kesler = 75 points in 82 games. Richards = 62 points in 82 games.

Of course, you could also point out that Richards blows Kesler's point totals away pretty badly during the course of their careers, despite BEING YOUNGER. Or you could point out that Richards blew away Kesler goal totals last year. You know, if you wanted to be fair.

Oh, btw.... didn't Kesler put up 3 points (2g, 1a) and +2 while Richards put up 0 points, -1..... the last time PHI and VAN played? So I don't understanding what you mean by losing track record.

This is where you guys start to go batty. You are going to try to use a head-to-head regular season game? Really? What's next, a player poll on who's the "toughest" player to play against? Oh, wait...

If you want to count Kesler's early years while he was young and developing and playing on the third and fourth lines.... then that's fine. With that mindset, you can also argue Richards is better offensively than the Sedins who put up pathetic point totals in their early years.

If you want to count Richards' early years while he was young and developing and playing on third lines...then that's fine. After all, RICHARDS IS YOUNGER THAN KESLER!

Somehow the fact that he actually EARNED a scoring line position on a team with TWO OTHER SCORING CENTERS at all times, counts against him? I mean, Richards had to battle Peter Forsberg & Jeff Carter for icetime. Then Daniel Briere and Jeff Carter for icetime. And now Daniel Briere, Claude Giroux, and Jeff Carter for icetime. He wasn't just given a spot, he earned it with his play.

Also, the Sedins have clearly established themselves as PPG+ franchise players, when Kesler DOES THAT, then we'll all give Kesler the credit he would so richly deserve.

Again, there's no point in debating with you. You'll always find a way to dismiss incriminating evidence and elevate not as relevant evidence (such as early year numbers).

Somehow a meaningless regular season game and a player poll are relevant evidence while SEVERAL YEARS' WORTH OF RECENT PRODUCTION are not, not to mention the MULTIPLE PLAYOFF CAMPAIGNS. These guys aren't 35 year olds at the end of their careers. Richards had a better season TWO SEASONS ago then Kesler has EVER HAD, and did so on two ****ed up shoulders.

And I won't trust my own opinion or your opinion. I'll just go with the nhl players and trust that Kesler is the 4th most toughest to play against in the league.

What is that poll item even supposed to mean? As I recall, the question in our little poll here is who is the better player, not the "toughest to play against", or if you are equating them, do you really think Kesler is the 4th best player in the league? If so, you are nuts.

We also don't know how many votes Richards got. For all we know he could be sitting in 6th with a mere percent less than Kesler.

The poll, much like the regular season game, means absolutely squat.

I'll take the guy who's established himself as a PPG 30G Selke-caliber, Conn-Smythe contender who's led his team to an ECF & SCF before the age of 26.

:laugh: Magnitude and publicity. I seriously doubt anyone put a whole helluva lot of thought or effort into what is essentially a fluff piece.



Of course, you could also point out that Richards blows Kesler's point totals away pretty badly during the course of their careers, despite BEING YOUNGER. Or you could point out that Richards blew away Kesler goal totals last year. You know, if you wanted to be fair.



This is where you guys start to go batty. You are going to try to use a head-to-head regular season game? Really? What's next, a player poll on who's the "toughest" player to play against? Oh, wait...



If you want to count Richards' early years while he was young and developing and playing on third lines...then that's fine. After all, RICHARDS IS YOUNGER THAN KESLER!

Somehow the fact that he actually EARNED a scoring line position on a team with TWO OTHER SCORING CENTERS at all times, counts against him? I mean, Richards had to battle Peter Forsberg & Jeff Carter for icetime. Then Daniel Briere and Jeff Carter for icetime. And now Daniel Briere, Claude Giroux, and Jeff Carter for icetime. He wasn't just given a spot, he earned it with his play.

Also, the Sedins have clearly established themselves as PPG+ franchise players, when Kesler DOES THAT, then we'll all give Kesler the credit he would so richly deserve.



Somehow a meaningless regular season game and a player poll are relevant evidence while SEVERAL YEARS' WORTH OF RECENT PRODUCTION are not, not to mention the MULTIPLE PLAYOFF CAMPAIGNS. These guys aren't 35 year olds at the end of their careers. Richards had a better season TWO SEASONS ago then Kesler has EVER HAD, and did so on two ****ed up shoulders.



What is that poll item even supposed to mean? As I recall, the question in our little poll here is who is the better player, not the "toughest to play against", or if you are equating them, do you really think Kesler is the 4th best player in the league? If so, you are nuts.

We also don't know how many votes Richards got. For all we know he could be sitting in 6th with a mere percent less than Kesler.

The poll, much like the regular season game, means absolutely squat.

I'll take the guy who's established himself as a PPG 30G Selke-caliber, Conn-Smythe contender who's led his team to an ECF & SCF before the age of 26.

Of course it means squat to you. You're a PHI homer. If the poll had Richards as 4th and Kesler not even making it to the top 5..... it would instead mean a whole lot to you.

The poll is very easy to understand if you understand English.

Who is the toughest player to play against?

This means.... if you're a d-man.... who's toughest to stop from scoring. If you're a forward, who's tougher to score against (i.e. if you have the puck.... that player is very good at backchecking and takeaways so it's hard to score..... or when you're trying to defend against that forward.... he's difficult to get the puck from, etc.).

So the poll means that when you combine offense and defense, Kesler is better overall than Richards in the opinion of NHL players.... but it doesn't preclude Richards from being better at offense or better at defense compared to Kesler. It just means overall Kesler is better.

Anyway, you're entitled to voice your opinion. But it is of less weight and value than the opinions of nhl players.

Came in here looking for Shafer.


Leaving disappointed.

Of course it means squat to you. You're a PHI homer. If the poll had Richards as 4th and Kesler not even making it to the top 5..... it would instead mean a whole lot to you.

It means squat because it means squat. You're a VAN homer. If the poll had Richards as 4th and Kelser not even making it to the top 5, it would instead mean nothing to you.

The poll means nothing to me no matter what the results are, because it's a damned player poll. I have actual statistics and things to look at. I can easily see that Kesler's never had a thirty goal season while Richards has had two. I can easily see that forty percent of Kesler's points come on the PP with the Sedins. I can easily see that Kesler has never done a PPG, while Richards has done it twice. I can easily see that Richards has done near a PPG in the playoffs and lead his team to the SCF in the second season of his captaincy, while Kesler has not.

The poll is very easy to understand if you understand English.

Who is the toughest player to play against?

This means.... if you're a d-man.... who's toughest to stop from scoring. If you're a forward, who's tougher to score against (i.e. if you have the puck.... that player is very good at backchecking and takeaways so it's hard to score..... or when you're trying to defend against that forward.... he's difficult to get the puck from, etc.).

So the poll means that when you combine offense and defense, Kesler is better overall than Richards in the opinion of NHL players.... but it doesn't preclude Richards from being better at offense or better at defense compared to Kesler. It just means overall Kesler is better.

OMG, you went there. Honest question, do you think Kesler is the 4th best overall forward (I won't even go player, I'll just go forward) in the league?

Because that's essentially what you're saying here. If Kesler is better overall than Richards because he's in the top 5 and Richards isn't, then it stands to reason that Kesler must be better than everybody that did not make the top 5.

You are not going to get very far with that argument...

A good majority of GMs in this league would take Kesler over Richards right now (not a year ago or a couple years ago though).

With the two players being close enough, you have to take Kesler. He's bigger, stronger, and faster than Richards.

This bickering between PHI and VAN fans is ridiculous. I can't believe you guys are still arguing about this.

Bottom line is.... Richards has a better track record.

But Kesler is probably slightly better at this very moment but still too close.

I'm willing to bet good money Kesler will also be the better player down the line.

It means squat because it means squat. You're a VAN homer. If the poll had Richards as 4th and Kelser not even making it to the top 5, it would instead mean nothing to you.

The poll means nothing to me no matter what the results are, because it's a damned player poll. I have actual statistics and things to look at. I can easily see that Kesler's never had a thirty goal season while Richards has had two. I can easily see that forty percent of Kesler's points come on the PP with the Sedins. I can easily see that Kesler has never done a PPG, while Richards has done it twice. I can easily see that Richards has done near a PPG in the playoffs and lead his team to the SCF in the second season of his captaincy, while Kesler has not.



OMG, you went there. Honest question, do you think Kesler is the 4th best overall forward (I won't even go player, I'll just go forward) in the league?

Because that's essentially what you're saying here. If Kesler is better overall than Richards because he's in the top 5 and Richards isn't, then it stands to reason that Kesler must be better than everybody that did not make the top 5.

You are not going to get very far with that argument...


Kesler is 13th in points..... but tied for 3rd in the league in goals. Everybody will agree that a goal is generally more valuable than an assist.

If you're factoring in offense and defense..... then 4th best overall is about right..... since Kesler not just scores goals but prevents a lot of goals and is the front-runner for the Selke.

Maybe you can argue dropping him one or two spots.... but 4th is about right.

At the very least, I know he's better than Richards. I would agree with you though if you want to say Richards was better before. It took Kesler longer to develop.

Kesler is 13th in points..... but tied for 3rd in the league in goals. Everybody will agree that a goal is generally more valuable than an assist.

If you're factoring in offense and defense..... then 4th best overall is about right..... since Kesler not just scores goals but prevents a lot of goals and is the front-runner for the Selke.

Maybe you can argue dropping him one or two spots.... but 4th is about right.


I rest my case, you guys have just completely lost all touch with reality.

1. Toews
2. Kesler
3. Richards

No real wrong way to organize this list anyhow.

How did Van fans become this bad? What one year can do to a fan base's reputation...

I rest my case, you guys have just completely lost all touch with reality.

What case is that?

I think I would tend to agree that too much value a lot of times is placed on stats and offense and not enough on defense and actually watching live and seeing how difficult it is to play against a certain player.

How did Van fans become this bad? What one year can do to a fan base's reputation...

So PHI fans suddenly have a great rep?

As far as I'm concerned, both sides are ridiculous in this debate.

Let's just say Kesler and Richards are close and leave it at that.

How many players polled were in the West as opposed to East? How many were in the Northwest Division?

Grain of salt.

They polled about half the players in the league.

How did Van fans become this bad? What one year can do to a fan base's reputation...

You're only the 7258th person to come up with a post like this! Congratulations! What would you like? A cookie?

Calling out annoying Canucks fans for starting thread-after-thread on the main board is one thing (and deserved), but generalizing a whole fanbase because they're arguing that Kesler, who has put up superior stats for the past 1.5 years now, is better than Richards? Give me a break.

I'm starting to understand how Leafs fans feel. I don't get why Canucks fans suddenly have a bad rep.

Came in here looking for Shafer.


Leaving disappointed.

The funny thing is back around the SCF Shafer got tons of crap for saying Richards is better than Toews, I guess the hfboards seems to agree with him right now

The funny thing is back around the SCF Shafer got tons of crap for saying Richards is better than Toews, I guess the hfboards seems to agree with him right now

I don't think that's fair to say.

I think it's too early to make a fair assessment on Toews.

He's 22..... i.e. 4 years younger than both Kesler and Richards.

That's why at least personally.... I didn't comment on Toews and left the discussion to Kesler vs. Richards.

The funny thing is back around the SCF Shafer got tons of crap for saying Richards is better than Toews, I guess the hfboards seems to agree with him right now

Shafer is a hater and he was hatin' pretty hard back then, if I remember correctly. And yes, the poll seems to indicate more votes for Richards than Toews.

They polled about half the players in the league.

You're only the 7258th person to come up with a post like this! Congratulations! What would you like? A cookie?

Calling out annoying Canucks fans for starting thread-after-thread on the main board is one thing (and deserved), but generalizing a whole fanbase because they're arguing that Kesler, who has put up superior stats for the past 1.5 years now, is better than Richards? Give me a break.

I'm starting to understand how Leafs fans feel. I don't get why Canucks fans suddenly have a bad rep.

Well, half the league is the Western Conference, isn't it? What you just wrote doesn't really tell me anything about my point. Just stating a random fact.

1.5 years? He beat Richie last year, but they are in fact tied in points this year sir, despite Kesler's "God-like" season.

And I'll take that cookie if you've got it! :)

Well, half the league is the Western Conference, isn't it? What you just wrote doesn't really tell me anything about my point. Just stating a random fact.

1.5 years? He beat Richie last year, but they are in fact tied in points this year sir, despite Kesler's "God-like" season.

And I'll take that cookie if you've got it! :)

3rd in goals. This is your last chance to acknowledge that fact.

3rd in goals. This is your last chance to acknowledge that fact.

He's doing a great job at scoring goals this season. Fortunately for a bias Flyers fan, goals scored aren't the only offensive category that matters. They're tied in points scored/PPG, therefore this Kesler has superior offensive statistics nonsense needs to stop.

Way to much bias coming in from both sides.

Kesler is having a fantastic year and I am a huge fan of both him and the Canucks but I believe his goal scoring this year is going to be a high for him. Fact is Ryan is having an another outstanding year were he has found another level but that level put him just on par with what Richie has been doing for the past 4years.

Going forward if all things stay even I take Kesler for his faceoff prowess size and speed. Rich has obviously had the better career with playoff success and Olympic gold, but Kes had a fantastic first Olympic showing.

This could be allot clearer in the next few years seeing as how both players are huge parts of 2 clubs that should be contenders for the next few years at least.

Way to much bias coming in from both sides.

Kesler is having a fantastic year and I am a huge fan of both him and the Canucks but I believe his goal scoring this year is going to be a high for him. Fact is Ryan is having an another outstanding year were he has found another level but that level put him just on par with what Richie has been doing for the past 4years.

Going forward if all things stay even I take Kesler for his faceoff prowess size and speed. Rich has obviously had the better career with playoff success and Olympic gold, but Kes had a fantastic first Olympic showing.

This could be allot clearer in the next few years seeing as how both players are huge parts of 2 clubs that should be contenders for the next few years at least.

This is a perfectly reasonable assessment.

What case is that?

I think I would tend to agree that too much value a lot of times is placed on stats and offense and not enough on defense and actually watching live and seeing how difficult it is to play against a certain player.

He basically just flat out called Ryan Kesler the fourth best overall forward in the league.

You see nothing wrong with that statement?

Richards is a clear step above these guys. He's the most physical, the best fighter, the best in all 3 situations, the best(and most proven) offensively, just as good defensively as any of them. Easy choice.

Mike Richards without hesitating.

He basically just flat out called Ryan Kesler the fourth best overall forward in the league.

You see nothing wrong with that statement?

Not exactly. He said close to fourth. And this is overall we're talking about. He didn't say Kesler was the fourth best offensive forward. That Kesler is the front-runner for Selke means he's theoretically the best forward defensively (at least this year), so that brings up his overall average so to speak.

And you can't just dismiss the poll question. It's pretty legit. Half the league was polled on it. So it does mean something.

I've also read a few legit articles this year that have argued that Kesler should be at least considered for the Hart this year (though not win it). So it's not at all ridiculous. I def. feel you are underrating Kesler and really haven't seen his play this year.

At the same time, I think VAN fans are def. overrating him on the basis of this one year. Personally, I need to see him sustain this for a longer period.... and when I mean sustain this.... I don't mean stats. Kesler's stats last year (75 pts) look about the same as his pace right now (47pts in 50).... but if you've watched him this year and last.... he is noticeably noticeably more dominant on both ends of the ice this year than last.... that's what needs to be sustained.... and do it in the playoffs too! No more excuses about injuries.

Not exactly. He said close to fourth. And this is overall we're talking about. He didn't say Kesler was the fourth best offensive forward. That Kesler is the front-runner for Selke means he's theoretically the best forward defensively (at least this year), so that brings up his overall average so to speak.

And you can't just dismiss the poll question. It's pretty legit. Half the league was polled on it. So it does mean something.

I've also read a few legit articles this year that have argued that Kesler should be at least considered for the Hart this year (though not win it). So it's not at all ridiculous. I def. feel you are underrating Kesler and really haven't seen his play this year.

At the same time, I think VAN fans are def. overrating him on the basis of this one year. Personally, I need to see him sustain this for a longer period.... and when I mean sustain this.... I don't mean stats. Kesler's stats last year (75 pts) look about the same as his pace right now (47pts in 50).... but if you've watched him this year and last.... he is noticeably noticeably more dominant on both ends of the ice this year than last.... that's what needs to be sustained.... and do it in the playoffs too! No more excuses about injuries.

You know.... perhaps this ^^ is to explain the big disconnect that currently exists between VAN fans and others over Kesler.

Kesler's improvement this year has not really shown up that much on the stats other than a measurable improvement in goals.

But I can vouch that he is a much better player this year than last.

So while VAN fans are getting all (overly) giddy at what they're seeing with Kesler this year, I can understand why others don't quite understand why just looking at the stats.

You're only the 7258th person to come up with a post like this! Congratulations! What would you like? A cookie?

Calling out annoying Canucks fans for starting thread-after-thread on the main board is one thing (and deserved), but generalizing a whole fanbase because they're arguing that Kesler, who has put up superior stats for the past 1.5 years now, is better than Richards? Give me a break.

No one's generalizing about the whole fanbase because they're arguing for Kesler. They're generalizing because you've all gone positively mad and it shows up not only on the main board but also here in the polls.

I can handle a reasonable Kesler v. Richards argument. I've stated over and over again that it is very close right now, but that Richards gets the edge because he's simply accomplished more and has a more proven track record.

I'm at a loss in trying to understand what issue any Nuck fan has with that, and yet...they somehow take issue with it.

Also, over the last 1.5 seasons:

Richards 48 G 61 A 109 Pts
Kesler 52 G 70 A 122 Pts.

So Kesler having the two best seasons of his career thus far only has 4 more goals and 13 more points vs. Richards over the same time span, which happens to include a "down" year.

Now let's include playoffs:

Ricards 56 G 81 A 137 Pts.
Kesler 55 G 81 A 136 Pts.

Isn't that funny. Mind you, Richie has 7 more games in those numbers, but it is still quite remarkable.

Reports of Kesler's recent "blowing away" of Richards are greatly exaggerated.

I'm starting to understand how Leafs fans feel. I don't get why Canucks fans suddenly have a bad rep.

You guys are earning that reputation with pure idiocy like trying to argue that Ryan Kesler is the fourth best forward in the league because a poll of about half the players in the league found that a whopping 4 or 5% of them think he's the "toughest to play against".

Go see the Richards vs. Zetterberg vs. Kesler poll for yet more absurdity. You'll see few if any Flyer fans daring to suggest that Richie is a better player than Zetterberg, and yet there are an army of Nucks fans stridently arguing that somehow Kesler is superior to a player that is absolutely lightyears beyond him, even embarrasing other Nucks fans in the thread.

I def. feel you are underrating Kesler and really haven't seen his play this year.

At the same time, I think VAN fans are def. overrating him on the basis of this one year. Personally, I need to see him sustain this for a longer period.... and when I mean sustain this.... I don't mean stats. Kesler's stats last year (75 pts) look about the same as his pace right now (47pts in 50).... but if you've watched him this year and last.... he is noticeably noticeably more dominant on both ends of the ice this year than last.... that's what needs to be sustained.... and do it in the playoffs too! No more excuses about injuries.

I won't speak to the first part of your argument, because it hurts my head to read Kesler & Hart in the same sentence, but tell me how exactly I have underrated him? Show me where I've said anything negative towards him whatsoever. I've done nothing but compliment the guy and say that I wish he was on my team.

What you write there in your next paragraph is precisely my position. I want to see him sustain this and I want to see him bring it in the playoffs before I give him a nod over Richards.

What issue can any reasonable person possibly have with that?

No one's generalizing about the whole fanbase because they're arguing for Kesler. They're generalizing because you've all gone positively mad and it shows up not only on the main board but also here in the polls.

I can handle a reasonable Kesler v. Richards argument. I've stated over and over again that it is very close right now, but that Richards gets the edge because he's simply accomplished more and has a more proven track record.

Also, over the last 1.5 seasons:

Richards 48 G 61 A 109 Pts
Kesler 52 G 70 A 122 Pts.

So Kesler having the two best seasons of his career thus far only has 4 more goals and 13 more points vs. Richards over the same time span, which happens to include a "down" year.

Now let's include playoffs:

Ricards 56 G 81 A 137 Pts.
Kesler 55 G 81 A 136 Pts.

Isn't that funny. Mind you, Richie has 7 more games in those numbers, but it is still quite remarkable.

Reports of Kesler's recent "blowing away" of Richards are greatly exaggerated.

Thank you for proving my point right away in your post. The majority of pro-Kesler fans in this thread are arguing that Kesler is currently better than Richards and Toews because he's put up better offensive numbers over the past couple seasons. Reasonable argument. Then, somebody brings up a player poll revealing that 5% of them think Kesler is the 4th toughest to play against. Not the best argument, but one person uses it to say Kesler's the 4th best overall forward in the league this year. I wouldn't say so, but the guy's the favourite for the Selke trophy and is on pace for ~45 goals. Again, reasonable argument for this year. Nobody is going "positively mad". If Canucks fans are ignoring Richards' track record, then you're ignoring what Kesler has done this season. I agree that Richards should win this poll because Kesler has to keep up this year's play for longer, but don't go and rip apart a whole fanbase because not everybody shares that view.

I'm at a loss in trying to understand what issue any Nuck fan has with that, and yet...they somehow take issue with it.

You seem to be taking an issue with Canucks fans voting against Richards.

You guys are earning that reputation with pure idiocy like trying to argue that Ryan Kesler is the fourth best forward in the league because a poll of about half the players in the league found that a whopping 4 or 5% of them think he's the "toughest to play against".

Go see the Richards vs. Zetterberg vs. Kesler poll for yet more absurdity. You'll see few if any Flyer fans daring to suggest that Richie is a better player than Zetterberg, and yet there are an army of Nucks fans stridently arguing that somehow Kesler is superior to a player that is absolutely lightyears beyond him, even embarrasing other Nucks fans in the thread.

Once again, arguing that Kesler has been the 4th best overall forward in the league this year isn't pure idiocy. Overall means 2-way. The Selke is awarded to excellent 2-way players. Kesler is a good bet to win that award soon. 4th best overall is a stretch, but it isn't crazy given the years Ovechkin/Malkin are having, plus Datsyuk's injury. And once again, stop generalizing. Only one poster said Kesler is the 4th best forward, not all of us.

Holy hell this is entertaining. :laugh:

I don't mean that as an insult, it's just, every Canucks-related thread just turns into long, drawn-out arguments ultimately resulting in bashing of fanbases, whether it be the Canucks, Hawks, Oilers, etc.

Dude...

2007-08 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 73 28 47 75
2008-09 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 79 30 50 80
2009-10 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 82 31 31 62

There are two PPG seasons in there (something Kesler hasn't actually ever done, though he was thisclose last year, with the third being a 30 goal seaosn. He's also at exactly the same PPG average THIS SEASON as Kesler. He's played in every game this season and he's averaged 78 games a year over 3 seasons prior. By the way, that 09 season was accomplished by Richards playing with not just one but two badly injured shoulders.

In all three of those seasons, Richards scored more goals than Kesler has in any season to date (with the obvious expectation that he finally reaches that plateau shortly.)

None of this takes into account that Richards is almost a PPG player in the PLAYOFFS, something Kesler isn't even close to.

And has been discussed ad nauseum, Richards' linemates are just as mediocre as Kesler's. He's got Andreas Nodl & JVR most of the time. In fact, Nodl has been the only really consistent winger Richards has played with at Even Strength. The other slot has been occupied by no less than 6 players, including an ineffective Jeff Carter, a sometime healthy scratch in Zherdev, a slow starting JVR, Eric freaking AHLer Wellwood, the noted scorer Dan Carcillo, in addition to Giroux, who is now firmly entrenched on another line with Carter.

Also, if you don't think being on the first PP unit with the Sedins is boosting Kesler's stats then you are just being irrational.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that 73 and 79 games were equal to 82. Funny that when he does play 82 games, he only puts up 62 points.

BTW, don't ******** me. Of course I'm talking about past seasons in terms of linemates. You know just as well as I do that Richards played with Gagne and Knuble for a very long period of time, and when he wasn't, he played with Lupul quite a bit (who put up decent stats). And even then, this season, calling Carter ineffective is ridiculous. 23 goals and 21 assists in 50 games is not ineffective.

And I meant that barring the powerplay, Kesler's linemates have been much worse than Richards. Even then, when you talk about the powerplay, you can't discredit the fact that Kesler is a much better powerplay player too. Powerplay goals count just the same as even strength goals, last I checked. He's become one of the best players in front of the net tipping shots in, which probably accounts for a good 50% of his goals.


Holddddddd the phone.

1. Richards can most certainly hit 30 goals. His record shows that's what he typically gets, so we'll see. Either way, he'll be right around that number.

2. Richards has been OVER a PPG pace twice in his career. Not, it wasn't over 82 games. He missed 2 here or there. Ultimately, who cares? And I don't see the relevance as Kessler himself has never completed a PPG pace over an entire season.

3. Richards had one season where he was seriously injured, leaving him to only play 59 games. Every other season thus far, he's played 73 games and above. Useless?

4. Richards has good linemates, you're definitely right. Well, linemate...Andreas Nodl doesn't really qualify as good. However, Richards makes his line what it is, regardless of who is on his wing. He makes Nodl an NHL player somehow.

At 82 games, Richards only put up 62 points. Strange, that he couldn't go a full season as a PPG player. As well, I was talking about Richards being an established 30 goal scorer and how "Kesler (to date) isn't". It's a stupid thing to say when Kesler is three goals away from 30, a mark that he will surely hit within the next 30 games. It's not like we're talking about these players in April and there's 2 games left for Kesler to hit 30.

I won't speak to the first part of your argument, because it hurts my head to read Kesler & Hart in the same sentence, but tell me how exactly I have underrated him? Show me where I've said anything negative towards him whatsoever. I've done nothing but compliment the guy and say that I wish he was on my team.

What you write there in your next paragraph is precisely my position. I want to see him sustain this and I want to see him bring it in the playoffs before I give him a nod over Richards.

What issue can any reasonable person possibly have with that?

Let's just say we pretty much agree on most things but not quite.

I agree that based on track record I give Richards the slight edge at this point.

But Kesler has been better than Richards this year. I feel the difference is more than slight, which is where I think you would characterize it as if at all.

At the same time, I agree that you can't put too much weight on this one year until that level of play is sustained over a longer period of time. So I'm not ready at all to crown Kesler over Richards.

I also understand the other guy's argument there. I think two-way players like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kesler, Richards, Toews, and Staal are greatly undervalued. These are the kind of players you win cups with..... not guys like Semin, Kessel, etc..

Personally, I think if you're in the top echelon of two-way players.... that's easily worth at least 10-15 points in the standings to me relative to a forward who's average defensively.... and maybe even more if relative to a forward who flat-out sucks defensively. That's just my imo.

So I can understand his point that a guy like Kesler is close to being the fourth best overall forward when you consider he's 13th in points, 3rd in goals, and probably 1st in defense this year. Also, I read somewhere that most predict Kesler will win the Canucks' team MVP award this year (this is over the Sedins who are 3rd and 4th in league scoring), so this tells you something. Kesler is a lot closer to being in the area of 4th overall than you make it out to be. I'm not saying I agree with him.... he's still overrating Kesler a bit....but I don't think he's that far off either.... and when you basically dismissed it as ludicrous.... that's where I thought maybe you were underrating Kesler.

It's also worth noting that Kesler has indeed played with scrubs this year. Raymond, Tambellini, Hansen, and Samuelsson have all sucked. Kesler's stats are understated. His linemates have squandered numerous prime scoring feeds, especially Raymond. Kesler's assist totals should be a lot higher if he had decent linemates..... like add 5-10 points to his current total. So in that sense.... it's once again closer than the way you dismissed it.

I acknowledge though that Richards has also had scrubs to play with this year..... Nodl, Zherdev, and JVR. Nodl and Zherdev especially. Nodl started out fine but he just can't seem to finish lately. And Zherdev is an inconsistent floater that you can't rely on. So if Richards had better linemates, I believe he also would similarly be a lot higher in the scoring race too.

Anyway, I think this thread is giving me headaches. Consider me done.

kesler was money in the playoffs last year... oh wait :sarcasm:

toews or richards, kesler doesnt belong in this poll

kesler was money in the playoffs last year... oh wait :sarcasm:

toews or richards, kesler doesnt belong in this poll

Silly guy got injured....agreed, he is inferior to both. Doubt he will outscore either in any season let alone win a Selke before either.

He is a bust. Good thing for Flyers Canucks matched. Not sure Flyers could handle having such bust weighing down their fourth line.

Silly guy got injured....agreed, he is inferior to both. Doubt he will outscore either in any season let alone win a Selke before either.

He is a bust. Good thing for Flyers Canucks matched. Not sure Flyers could handle having such bust weighing down their fourth line.

Kesler minus canuck factor= 12%

This is definetly between Toews and Richards, Richards is more physical, Toews at 21 was arguably as good as Richards at 25;
Plus Toews and Richards are grat leaders, Kesler is still in the shadow of his agitator days like when him and Burrows were the biggest douches in hockey, one pulls hair, the other calls out players to the media like a 10yr old girl crying for their mommy,he is a coward and a joke in most locker rooms, his play this year is great but even Kesler will tell you he has to step it up in the post season, injuries or not.

Kesler minus canuck factor= 12%

This is definetly between Toews and Richards, Richards is more physical, Toews at 21 was arguably as good as Richards at 25;
Plus Toews and Richards are grat leaders, Kesler is still in the shadow of his agitator days like when him and Burrows were the biggest douches in hockey, one pulls hair, the other calls out players to the media like a 10yr old girl crying for their mommy,he is a coward and a joke in most locker rooms, his play this year is great but even Kesler will tell you he has to step it up in the post season, injuries or not.

Even though I appreciate the Canuck hate in here...I think Toews is riding 3rd in this debate.

Kesler minus canuck factor= 12%

This is definetly between Toews and Richards, Richards is more physical, Toews at 21 was arguably as good as Richards at 25;
Plus Toews and Richards are grat leaders, Kesler is still in the shadow of his agitator days like when him and Burrows were the biggest douches in hockey, one pulls hair, the other calls out players to the media like a 10yr old girl crying for their mommy,he is a coward and a joke in most locker rooms, his play this year is great but even Kesler will tell you he has to step it up in the post season, injuries or not.

Agreed, Kesler is hugely inferior. Both Richards and Toews will outscore Kesler this, and every, year. Kesler is an alternate captain on an inferior team to the two of them AND he is indeed a joke and was chosen for the star game, and assigned a leadership role, for pity as people felt sorry for him given all his issues.

Kelser sucks, really he does. Not sure why he anyone thinks he can be compared to these two players. They are sitting up there in scoring stats, Kesler is not. Same in face off stats, they rock that. They are also leading candidates for the Selke and always play against tougher opponents whereas Canucks only put Kesler on the ice during powerplays, against weaker lines or when the other coach isn't looking between periods.

Bottom line, Kesler cannot be in the same thread as these two legends and I cannot fathom how anyone even voted for him. It is, sir, a travesty. A travesy I say. :nod:

Agreed, Kesler is hugely inferior. Both Richards and Toews will outscore Kesler this, and every, year. Kesler is an alternate captain on an inferior team to the two of them AND he is indeed a joke and was chosen for the star game, and assigned a leadership role, for pity as people felt sorry for him given all his issues.

I know it is meant to be a joke, but both points may be accurate regarding Richards.

I know it is meant to be a joke, but both points may be accurate regarding Richards.

Joke? Kesler is inferior. Just look at the uniform he wears.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that 73 and 79 games were equal to 82. Funny that when he does play 82 games, he only puts up 62 points.

This is the kind of insane, nonsensical argument that gives Nucks fans bad reputation. I won't go into the fact that apparently refuse to recognize 79 games as a full season, but will instead try to unravel the mysterious logic behind your last statement there.

Somehow playing 3 more games caused an 18 point drop in his production? On what planet does that line of thought even begin to make sense?

NorthVan, do you see what I'm talking about here?

BTW, don't ******** me. Of course I'm talking about past seasons in terms of linemates. You know just as well as I do that Richards played with Gagne and Knuble for a very long period of time, and when he wasn't, he played with Lupul quite a bit (who put up decent stats). And even then, this season, calling Carter ineffective is ridiculous. 23 goals and 21 assists in 50 games is not ineffective.

Richards has played with all manner of linemates. When Gagne was healthy, the line you are referring to was a very good line. They were together for a grand total of ONE season - 08-09. Gagne missed most of the year before and Knuble was on a line with Carter and Upshall.

Amazingly, Lupul had his best season (unfortunately shortened by Derian Hatcher) playing alongside Richards. Wonder why that was.

Last year Richie had Gagne for less than 60 games, probably a good 25 of which Simon was still recovering from injuries and unable to buy a goal. Guys like Aaron Asham and Dan Carcillo spent a decent amount of time on his line.

Also, apparently you didn't watch any of the Flyers earlier in the year, or you would have seen Jeff Carter being completely invisible playing wing with Richards for the first dozen games or so.

And I meant that barring the powerplay, Kesler's linemates have been much worse than Richards. Even then, when you talk about the powerplay, you can't discredit the fact that Kesler is a much better powerplay player too. Powerplay goals count just the same as even strength goals, last I checked. He's become one of the best players in front of the net tipping shots in, which probably accounts for a good 50% of his goals.

Kesler's linemates this season have not been worse than Richards. We've established that. At even strength, they both play with lesser players.

The reason the power play is brought up is that Kesler scores nearly 40 percent of his points there - with the SEDINS. Are you really going to try to sit there and claim that that doesn't boost his numbers?

At 82 games, Richards only put up 62 points. Strange, that he couldn't go a full season as a PPG player. As well, I was talking about Richards being an established 30 goal scorer and how "Kesler (to date) isn't". It's a stupid thing to say when Kesler is three goals away from 30, a mark that he will surely hit within the next 30 games. It's not like we're talking about these players in April and there's 2 games left for Kesler to hit 30.

I won't go into you bizarre assertion that somehow 80 points in 79 games isn't a full PPG season, but the fact of the matter is that Kesler has never scored 30 goals in a season.

I completely assume he will do it, and with ease, but it doesn't change the fact that it is an accomplishment that Richards has already achieved - TWICE - that he has to date yet accomplished.

That counts for something.

It bothers me when people don't read what I post, so I'm going to leave it at that.

This is the kind of insane, nonsensical argument that gives Nucks fans bad reputation. I won't go into the fact that apparently refuse to recognize 79 games as a full season, but will instead try to unravel the mysterious logic behind your last statement there.

Somehow playing 3 more games caused an 18 point drop in his production? On what planet does that line of thought even begin to make sense?

NorthVan, do you see what I'm talking about here?

Haha, you win.

It's unfair to say that Richards has never been a PPG player over a full season. That's the same kind of logic as saying that Daniel Sedin isn't a 90 point player over a full season.

Joke? Kesler is inferior. Just look at the uniform he wears.

Man alive, you must be raging on that keyboard there guy.

Before the last few seasons, I would have picked Richards without hesitation. But from what I've seen from Kesler this and even last year, it's pretty damn hard to pass up on a guy with his skillset. I think he's been one of the ten best players in the league this year and is still progressing.

Richard's, still confused on why Kesler has been thrown in the mix, maybe Backstrom should have been thrown in their instead.

Richard's
Toews


Kesler

Haha, you win.

It's unfair to say that Richards has never been a PPG player over a full season. That's the same kind of logic as saying that Daniel Sedin isn't a 90 point player over a full season.

yeah, he isn't.

Players are useless when they're missing games to injury. I'd rather have a 80 point, 82 game player over a 40 game, 50 point player for that exact reason.

yeah, he isn't.

Players are useless when they're missing games to injury. I'd rather have a 80 point, 82 game player over a 40 game, 50 point player for that exact reason.

So you'd rather have an 80 point 82 game player than an 80 point 79 game player?

Do you see how ridiculous you look right now? You have no leg to stand on.

yeah, he isn't.

Players are useless when they're missing games to injury. I'd rather have a 80 point, 82 game player over a 40 game, 50 point player for that exact reason.

Well, sure. In that one season where player B missed 42 games, player A was definately more valuable. It doesn't make player A better overall though.

Even though I appreciate the Canuck hate in here...I think Toews is riding 3rd in this debate.

Meh, I can say this, me thinks99% of gm's and coaches would choose Toews over Kesler,they dont base a players worth on 52 game stint,

Toews has 43 points in 49 gp,same ppg as "the 100pt" Backstrom,all I'm sayin is HFB=what have you done for me now, let's leave out his age factor, leadership, MVP awards, and say ''he is third Kesler has more points'',

Meh, I can say this, me thinks99% of gm's and coaches would choose Toews over Kesler,they dont base a players worth on 52 game stint,

Toews has 43 points in 49 gp,same ppg as "the 100pt" Backstrom,all I'm sayin is HFB=what have you done for me now, let's leave out his age factor, leadership, MVP awards, and say ''he is third Kesler has more points'',

Aren't the Olympics and the playoffs even less than a 52 game stint? Because those are the only two reasons Toews is even close in this poll.

Kesler's been playing like this for two years, by the way, not 52 games.

So you'd rather have an 80 point 82 game player than an 80 point 79 game player?

Do you see how ridiculous you look right now? You have no leg to stand on.

In this case, yes. Knowing Richards' "intangibles", having him for 82 games is much better than 79 games. If it were a player like Kristian Huselius, then no.

Aren't the Olympics and the playoffs even less than a 52 game stint? Because those are the only two reasons Toews is even close in this poll.

Kesler's been playing like this for two years, by the way, not 52 games.

ah Vancouver homers, you dont even realize it, you just said the only reason he is close in this poll was because he was mvp playoffs and best fwd olympics, ugh.....DUHHH, no that junk means squat, not to mention Toews has a better career ppg than both in regular and post season.

ah Vancouver homers, you dont even realize it, you just said the only reason he is close in this poll was because he was mvp playoffs and best fwd olympics, ugh.....DUHHH, no that junk means squqt, not to mention Toews has a better career ppg than both in regular and post season.

In how many less games played? He's also played with better linemates than Richards or Kesler.

Toews is the 3rd best player in this poll as far as I'm concerned.

ah Vancouver homers, you dont even realize it, you just said the only reason he is close in this poll was because he was mvp playoffs and best fwd olympics, ugh.....DUHHH, no that junk means squat, not to mention Toews has a better career ppg than both in regular and post season.

:facepalm:

You said that Kesler is only in this poll because of the past 52 games (it's actually 51, btw). In fact, Kesler has been playing at this level offensively for the past two years, since midway through the 08-09 season when he first got 2nd line icetime. Basically, Kesler's been playing at a 75 point pace for ~160 games.

Toews, on the other hand, played at that pace during the Olympics and the playoffs, which is about 35 games. Yet, you call people crazy for falling in love with Kesler because of 51 games this season (when in fact it's been closer to 150). Get it? I don't expect you to, but I tried.

I'm not undermining Toews' playoff performance. He was great, but until he plays like that in the regular season, or in the upcoming playoffs, it looks more like he got hot at the right time.

Career PPG means squat when you consider that both Kesler and Richards have improved tremendously since when they first entered the NHL. What does 3rd line Kesler of three years ago have to do with today?

Mike Richards

Jonathan Toews

Nicklas Backstrom

Ryan Kesler

@lakai. We get it, you don't like kesler or think he is overrated. Stop repeating after yourself.

:facepalm:

You said that Kesler is only in this poll because of the past 52 games (it's actually 51, btw). In fact, Kesler has been playing at this level offensively for the past two years, since midway through the 08-09 season when he first got 2nd line icetime. Basically, Kesler's been playing at a 75 point pace for ~160 games.

Toews, on the other hand, played at that pace during the Olympics and the playoffs, which is about 35 games. Yet, you call people crazy for falling in love with Kesler because of 51 games this season (when in fact it's been closer to 150). Get it? I don't expect you to, but I tried.

I'm not undermining Toews' playoff performance. He was great, but until he plays like that in the regular season, or in the upcoming playoffs, it looks more like he got hot at the right time.

Career PPG means squat when you consider that both Kesler and Richards have improved tremendously since when they first entered the NHL. What does 3rd line Kesler of three years ago have to do with today?

Toews is on a different level was just about as good as a 19 year old offensively,
My point is this: Your arguement is that Kesler is a better player than Toews, because he is having a great season. When in fact Toews as a 19 year old rookie was almost as good as Kesler was last year, and as a 22 year old he lead his team to a stanley Cup winning the conn smythe trophey.

Example:Toews had 24 goals and 54 points in 64 games played as a rookie, without injury that's roughly a 70 point pace,

Last year he had 68 points in 76 games played, again over a 70 point pace,

So automatically, Toews sucks regular season because he hasn't "hit 70 points" when in fact he could have done it as a rookie, Kesler last year had 6-7 more points while playing 6 more games, and after what Toews accomplished how can you say in any way shape or form Kesler is better????




Toews PPg Vs Kesler ppg

as a rookie=69-prorated 82gp
2nd year=69 in 82gp
3rd year=73-prorated
This year so far =72prorated%

playoffs
Toews-39gp=42pts

Kesler
Rookie=14prorated
2nd year=23
3rd year=27
4th-41
5th-75
6th season prorated=77points

Kesler in playoffs-23gp=14pts

Toews PPg Vs Kesler ppg

as a rookie=69-prorated 82gp
2nd year=69 in 82gp
3rd year=73-prorated
This year so far =72prorated%

playoffs
Toews-39gp=42pts

Kesler
Rookie=14prorated
2nd year=23
3rd year=27
4th-41
5th-75
6th season prorated=77points

Kesler in playoffs-23gp=14pts


So Kesler had a slower developmental curve, that doesn't prevent him from being the better player right now.

So Kesler had a slower developmental curve, that doesn't prevent him from being the better player right now.

:laugh:

By his logic, Toews is better than the Sedins as well.

Toews is on a different level was just about as good as a 19 year old offensively,
My point is this: Your arguement is that Kesler is a better player than Toews, because he is having a great season. When in fact Toews as a 19 year old rookie was almost as good as Kesler was last year, and as a 22 year old he lead his team to a stanley Cup winning the conn smythe trophey.

Example:Toews had 24 goals and 54 points in 64 games played as a rookie, without injury that's roughly a 70 point pace,

Last year he had 68 points in 76 games played, again over a 70 point pace,

So automatically, Toews sucks regular season because he hasn't "hit 70 points" when in fact he could have done it as a rookie, Kesler last year had 6-7 more points while playing 6 more games, and after what Toews accomplished how can you say in any way shape or form Kesler is better????




Toews PPg Vs Kesler ppg

as a rookie=69-prorated 82gp
2nd year=69 in 82gp
3rd year=73-prorated
This year so far =72prorated%

playoffs
Toews-39gp=42pts

Kesler
Rookie=14prorated
2nd year=23
3rd year=27
4th-41
5th-75
6th season prorated=77points

Kesler in playoffs-23gp=14pts

My argument is that Kesler is better than Toews because of the past two seasons. Your argument is that Toews is better than Kesler because the latter was a 3rd liner three years ago. Three years ago. Good on Toews for scoring in bunches as soon as he broke into the league. That means nothing right now.

I never said Toews sucks in the regular season. I'm saying that Kesler has been better than Toews for two years now, with inferior linemates, while earning a Selke nomination.

It isn't "Toews and it's not even close" like you seem to think.

@lakai. We get it, you don't like kesler or think he is overrated. Stop repeating after yourself.

I'll admit he's half decent and love the hype he provide's to these boards, we all like different style's of player's.

So Kesler had a slower developmental curve, that doesn't prevent him from being the better player right now.

That about sums it up. Toews was outstanding as a rookie, but the problem with him is that he hasn't really progressed much offensively since then. He's still young, but to date it has been a slow development curve.

Kind of reminds me of Trevor Linden (at least in terms of offensive development). As a rookie, he was already near his peak offensively. Scored 30 goals as an 18 year old, and scored 30+ another five times, but his peak was 33.

It may be that Toews's average season will be roughly 30 goals and 75 points.

My argument is that Kesler is better than Toews because of the past two seasons. Your argument is that Toews is better than Kesler because the latter was a 3rd liner three years ago. Three years ago. Good on Toews for scoring in bunches as soon as he broke into the league. That means nothing right now.

I never said Toews sucks in the regular season. I'm saying that Kesler has been better than Toews for two years now, with inferior linemates, while earning a Selke nomination.

It isn't "Toews and it's not even close" like you seem to think.

http://blogs.thescore.com.s3.amazonaws.com/nhl/files/2010/06/toewsconn.jpg

http://www.benchedwhale.com/images/stories/march_2010/kesler_medium.jpg

http://www.benchedwhale.com/images/stories/march_2010/kesler_medium.jpg

That's the heart of a captain right there. A guy who will go out and bleed for his team. Kesler's an amazing player ain't he?

At this point in their careers I would love to have any of the three! They all developed at different rates, but what matters is right now....all great players!

The call to action—or in Kesler's case, inaction—came last spring when general manager Mike Gillis and coach Alain Vigneault conducted year-end meetings with each of their players. They believed Kesler, along with a handful of his teammates, needed a dose of behavioral rehabilitation. The constant chirping, the extracurricular hits, the retaliatory penalties all "camouflaged immaturity," according to Gillis. Kesler and his mates, in other words, were wasting energy on insignificant parts of the game, more interested in ego battles than in victory. Source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1181206/index.htm

:laugh:

Kesler: Career playoff goals = 3
Toews: Goals in Game 4 of the 2nd Rd against Vancouver last year = 3

also, that picture of Kesler is after he got his nose broken by Ladd, bailed on the fight, and then called Ladd a coward - heart of a captain right there :laugh:

That's the heart of a captain right there. A guy who will go out and bleed for his team. Kesler's an amazing player ain't he?

no no thats when he called out Ladd to the media then got ownedm heart of a p%#%#.

In this case, yes. Knowing Richards' "intangibles", having him for 82 games is much better than 79 games. If it were a player like Kristian Huselius, then no.

3 more games = Much better?

Why don't you just man up, say you were wrong, and admit Richards has had a PPG season?

We'd all take you far more seriously.

Hate to say it, but no gm in their right mind would trade Kesler for Richards right now.

:laugh:

Kesler: Career playoff goals = 3
Toews: Goals in Game 4 of the 2nd Rd against Vancouver last year = 3

also, that picture of Kesler is after he got his nose broken by Ladd, bailed on the fight, and then called Ladd a coward - heart of a captain right there :laugh:

It's hilarious that people have to look at the past events/incidents to support their fallacious arguments.

For example it would be me pointing out how kane beat up a cabs driver for 20 ****ing cents if I was losing an argument against kane. All in all it is quite pathetic that you really have to resort to that.

no no thats when he called out Ladd to the media then got ownedm heart of a p%#%#.

You just further proved to yourself and to everyone else that you're a troll and a massive toews homer. Since you pretty much lost the argument you just posted non-significant pictures that have nothing to do with arguments that poster reasonably provided and he has made a solid case about why kesler is better than toews right now.

You lose.

___

Right now it is

toss up between richards and kesler (richards with the slight edge)



toews

It's hilarious that people have to look at the past events/incidents to support their fallacious arguments.


what was i thinking? why would i look at things that have happened to form my opinions?!!?!?

like kesler, i need behavioral rehabilitation

Right now it is

toss up between richards and kesler (richards with the slight edge)



toews
Also, right now it is

toss up between flyers and canucks





hawks

It's hilarious that people have to look at the past events/incidents to support their fallacious arguments.

For example it would be me pointing out how kane beat up a cabs driver for 20 ****ing cents if I was losing an argument against kane. All in all it is quite pathetic that you really have to resort to that.



You just further proved to yourself and to everyone else that you're a troll and a massive toews homer. Since you pretty much lost the argument you just posted non-significant pictures that have nothing to do with arguments that poster reasonably provided and he has made a solid case about why kesler is better than toews right now.

You lose.

___

Right now it is

toss up between richards and kesler (richards with the slight edge)



toews

I loose,lol, Yup I'm a homer for Toews, oh well he did have one of the most amazing years in hockey last year,
Ah how forget the things that matter most, the playoffs, and the fact Toews himself made Kesler a non factor, owning the cAnucks with lke 13 points in the series, but WaIt,KeSLeRs bEtTer cuase The ReGulaR SeAsOn he'll have 10 more points,

GM point of view=
Toews=Richards











Koivu-




Kesler

Can't believe Toews has the least amount of votes.

The man is just the definition of clutch.

I loose,lol, Yup I'm a homer for Toews, oh well he did have one of the most amazing years in hockey last year,
Ah how forget the things that matter most, the playoffs, and the fact Toews himself made Kesler a non factor, owning the cAnucks with lke 13 points in the series, but WaIt,KeSLeRs bEtTer cuase The ReGulaR SeAsOn he'll have 10 more points,

GM point of view=
Toews=Richards











Koivu-




Kesler

If it was a "GM point of view" I'm pretty sure GM's would take Kesler's 5 mil over Koivu's 6.8 mil, especially since they play almost the exact same way :laugh:

But it's ok Toewzy, keep trying

http://espn.go.com/nhl/trophytracker

Kesler getting recognition for the Hart.

Wait, has Richards ever even been in the conversation for Hart??

We all know the obvious answer to that.

Kesler has almost double the goals Richards has this season and is starting to run away good in terms of points.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/trophytracker

Kesler getting recognition for the Hart.

Wait, has Richards ever even been in the conversation for Hart??

We all know the obvious answer to that.

Kesler has almost double the goals Richards has this season and is starting to run away good in terms of points.

:laugh: "ESPN"

Richards was the better player to begin with and he's going to be the better player at the end of their careers. Let's not get too ahead of ourselves.

:laugh: "ESPN"

Richards was the better player to begin with and he's going to be the better player at the end of their careers. Let's not get too ahead of ourselves.

Proof?
As it stands, it is looking like Kesler has caught up to Richards offensively while being better defensively ....

But whatever helps you sleep at night lakai. Wouldn't want to shatter your world of blind Canucks hate.

Proof?
As it stands, it is looking like Kesler has caught up to Richards offensively while being better defensively ....

But whatever helps you sleep at night lakai. Wouldn't want to shatter your world of blind Canucks hate.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=875532

I don't "hate" the Canucks either, I respect what they provide for the NHL.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=875532



How is this that link proof that Richards is going to end up being the "better player at the end of their careers"? Unless you can foresee the future, you should refrain from making outlandish comments about how Richards will continue to be better than Kesler, despite the stats saying otherwise.

How is this that link proof that Richards is going to end up being the "better player at the end of their careers"? Unless you can foresee the future, you should refrain from making outlandish comments about how Richards will continue to be better than Kesler, despite the stats saying otherwise.

Don't bother arguing with him. In between every anti-Canuck post is some BS claim that he has full respect for the organization and absolutely likes a select few of the players. :laugh:

The real problem with those defensive numbers is that different arena's score those things differently.

Hits is the only stat I'm aware of that can be scored subjectively in different arenas.

I don't know how they record hits at the Wells Fargo Center, but I do know that Rogers Arena is one of the toughest buildings to record a hit in, since they use the NHL standard for recording hits. Using forceful bodily contact to separate the man from the puck.

I've heard that many NHL venues hand out hits just for finishing a check.

Hits is the only stat I'm aware of that can be scored subjectively in different arenas.

I don't know how they record hits at the Wells Fargo Center, but I do know that Rogers Arena is one of the toughest buildings to record a hit in, since they use the NHL standard for recording hits. Using forceful bodily contact to separate the man from the puck.

I've heard that many NHL venues hand out hits just for finishing a check.
About the only stat that can't be handed out subjectively is goals.

Richards is a clear step above these guys. He's the most physical, the best fighter, the best in all 3 situations, the best(and most proven) offensively, just as good defensively as any of them. Easy choice.

:handclap: That post explains it all.

1. Mike Richards

2. Jonathan Toews

3. Ryan Kesler

Time to shut r down boys.

Proof?
As it stands, it is looking like Kesler has caught up to Richards offensively while being better defensively ....

But whatever helps you sleep at night lakai. Wouldn't want to shatter your world of blind Canucks hate.

I think that him being better at every aspect of the game besides arguably defensively than Kesler, I think it's safe to say RIGHT NOW he'll always be better.

When Kesler has a full PPG year he can maybe in the same conversation as Richie. Richards' has done it twice, while leading his team to the ECF 2 out of the past 3 years with a SCF appearance in there also.

Based on my semi-biased user name I'll take Kesler..haha.

But seriously though, the whole line mate argument is a joke since everyone is too stubborn to agree with anything on HF.

I like Richards, but he's a terrible fighter.

I think that him being better at every aspect of the game besides arguably defensively than Kesler, I think it's safe to say RIGHT NOW he'll always be better.



You know it more than I do that is post is ridiculous. He's not better at every aspect of the game. Kesler is cleary better defensively and it remains prominent. He's also better at faceoffs, goal scoring, agitating as well. If he continues his pace, it will look he will outscore richards again.

Well even though Richards is better at playmaking, both players have the same amount of career high assists in a season. It's just silly to say he'll always be better.

I'll admit Richards does have the edge overall but kesler is closing the gap amongst them rather hastily.

:handclap: That post explains it all.

1. Mike Richards

2. Jonathan Toews

3. Ryan Kesler

Time to shut r down boys.

-Troll Detected-

I will take:

Kesler
Richards
Toews

Are we still debating this??

Man!

I'm a Flyers fan. I HATE the Canucks and their dumb fans. You all suck.

Honestly though, Kesler is better than Richards right now. There's no way anyone can dispute this. Watch them play. Also, the stats bear it out.

Richards was def. better than Kesler in the past.

Can't say who will be better down the line yet. Probably Kesler. His skillset is more impressive.

But RIGHT NOW.....Kesler > Richards.

I hope Flyers fans and Canucks haters can objectively see this.

If you continue to underrate Kesler just because you hate the Canucks, all we'll continue to get is stupid Kesler appreciation threads to over-compensate for the slight Canucks fans feel.

Let's just be honest enough to give Kesler his due and move on.

Btw, it doesn't change the fact that Flyers > Canucks.

Are we still debating this??

Man!

I'm a Flyers fan. I HATE the Canucks and their dumb fans. You all suck.

Honestly though, Kesler is better than Richards right now. There's no way anyone can dispute this. Watch them play. Also, the stats bear it out.

Richards was def. better than Kesler in the past.

Can't say who will be better down the line yet. Probably Kesler. His skillset is more impressive.

But RIGHT NOW.....Kesler > Richards.

I hope Flyers fans and Canucks haters can objectively see this.

If you continue to underrate Kesler just because you hate the Canucks, all we'll continue to get is stupid Kesler appreciation threads to over-compensate for the slight Canucks fans feel.

Let's just be honest enough to give Kesler his due and move on.

Btw, it doesn't change the fact that Flyers > Canucks.


And a brand new debate begins ....