2004 Tour de France

What's going on, folks? I can't believe someone wasn't on this sooner.

Today begins with the 7-km Prologue through the streets of Liege.

BF, sticky if you will.

I'm gonna be following real closely, just like I did last year. Armstrong looked REAL strong in today's prologue. Guess he wanted to put away any thoughts by his competitors that he might be declining after his mortal showing a few weeks ago.

Swiss Fabian Cancellara of Fassa Bortolo won prologue being 2 seconds faster than Armstrong.
Other notables:
4 McGee +9"
8 Moreau +12"
16 Ullrich +17"
18 Hamilton +19"
26 Mayo +21"
27 I.Gonzalez de Galdeano +21"

Frederic Guesdon was last, minute and 27 seconds slower than Cancellara.

21 teams, 9 riders each except Euskaltel after Gorka Gonzalez was excluded.

Teams and captains:
US Postal - Berry Floor: Lance Armstrong
T-Mobile Team: Jan Ullrich
Phonak Racing Systems: Tyler Hamilton
Euskaltel - Euskadi: Iban Mayo
Fassa Bortolo: Alessandro Petacchi
Crédit Agricole: Christophe Moreau
Team CSC: Ivan Basso
Illes Balears - Banesto: Francesco Mancebo Perez
Gerolsteiner: Georg Tötschnig
Cofidis - Le Credit par Téléphone: Stuart O'Grady
Quick Step - Davitamon: Richard Virenque
Liberty Sequros: Roberto Heras Hernandez
Brioches La Boulangere: Sylvain Chavanel
Alessio - Bianchi: Magnus Bäckstedt
AG2R Prévoyance: Laurent Brochard
Rabobank: Levi Leipheimer
Fdjeux.com: Bradley McGee
Saeco: Gilberto Simoni
Lotto-Domo: Robbie McEwen
Domina Vacanze: Mario Cipollini
R.A.G.T. Semences - MG Rover: Christophe Rinero

Armstrong hasn't been as good as last year, so though he is still favourite, he is not as big as few earlier years. Also notable thing is that Heras has now leaved US Postal and will not help him to win. Heras is good rider by himself also, he is 2-time Vuelta winner IIRC.

Ullrich looked pretty good, too. However, I really wish T-Mobile had a different color scheme. Jan just can't seem to get away from seafoam and pink!

Pos Rider Time Lag
1- 043 CANCELLARA Fabian (SUI, FAS) 00:06:50.940
2- 001 ARMSTRONG Lance (USA, USP) 00:06:52.580 at 01"
3- 074 GUTIERREZ José Ivan (ESP, IBB) 00:06:58.410 at 07"
4- 161 MC GEE Bradley (AUS, FDJ) 00:06:59.900 at 08"
5- 057 HUSHOVD Thor (NOR, C.A) 00:07:00.980 at 10"
6- 027 PEREIRO SIO Oscar (ESP, PHO) 00:07:01.390 at 10"
7- 069 VOIGT Jens (GER, CSC) 00:07:01.420 at 10"
8- 051 MOREAU Christophe (FRA, C.A) 00:07:02.450 at 11"
9- 064 JULICH Bobby (USA, CSC) 00:07:02.840 at 11"
10- 005 HINCAPIE George (USA, USP) 00:07:02.890 at 11"
11- 025 GUTIERREZ José Enrique (ESP, PHO) 00:07:04.990 at 14"
12- 119 VICIOSO Angel (ESP, LST) 00:07:05.030 at 14"
13- 151 LEIPHEIMER Levi (USA, RAB) 00:07:05.410 at 14"
14- 067 SASTRE Carlos (ESP, CSC) 00:07:05.450 at 14"
15- 062 ARVESEN Kurt-Asle (NOR, CSC) 00:07:06.610 at 15"
16- 011 ULLRICH Jan (GER, TMO) 00:07:07.410 at 16"
17- 006 LANDIS Floyd (USA, USP) 00:07:08.090 at 17"
18- 021 HAMILTON Tyler (USA, PHO) 00:07:08.830 at 17"
19- 004 EKIMOV Viatceslav (RUS, USP) 00:07:09.050 at 18"
20- 065 PERON Andrea (ITA, CSC) 00:07:09.060 at 18"

Go Lance!

5 CSC's in the top 20. Not bad.

Vive le Armstrong!

So any bets on how long before Tyler Hamilton has his usual one horrific crash per race?

I say he goes down before the first week is up.

Since I wasn't around for two days I wasn't able to jump on the Tour earlier and create a thread.

I think there are 4 geniune candidates this year to win the big prize:
Armstrong, Ullrich, Mayo, Hamilton

After that there is a bit of a gap: Sevilla, Heras, Leipheimer, Moreau, Menchov, ... are top 10 candidates, but probably don't have what it takes to win it.


My Tierce for today's stage:
1. Petacchi 2. Boonen 3. Cipo

Busting a gut on the prologue? That doesn't seem like good strategy to me. He's too busy trying to win a 'psychological battle', does he really think people will be awed by him for stepping up over a few meaningless miles? This doesn't look like the same cagey, patient tactician that won so many tours.

today's stage is not interesting so far, but jens voigt is attacking as always. he's really a good guy for the tour.
it looks like we will see a sprint (correct word?) and with a wet road, we can expect maybe some crashes. cipollini is already sucking at the end, because of a crash. he should have no impact today.

i'm happy that the tour started! :)

hamilton again with a crash? oh well, he's not the luckiest cyclist.

jens voigt is really a hell of a cyclist. i just love him.

Busting a gut on the prologue? That doesn't seem like good strategy to me. He's too busy trying to win a 'psychological battle', does he really think people will be awed by him for stepping up over a few meaningless miles? This doesn't look like the same cagey, patient tactician that won so many tours.

He's "busted a gut," on the prologue a couple times before, and went on to win. So what's the problem?

With the Tour being as hotly contested as it likely will be this year, you can't take any stages lightly.

uhmm...i fell asleep shortly before kirsipuu won the stage. :banghead:

did anything special happened in the end?

Pos. N° Name Nat. Eq. Time
1 043 CANCELLARA Fabian SUI FAS in 06' 50"
2 001 ARMSTRONG Lance USA USP at 00' 02"
3 074 GUTIERREZ José Ivan ESP IBB at 00' 08"
4 161 MC GEE Bradley AUS FDJ at 00' 09"
5 057 HUSHOVD Thor NOR C.A at 00' 10"
6 027 PEREIRO SIO Oscar ESP PHO at 00' 11"
7 069 VOIGT Jens GER CSC at 00' 11"
8 051 MOREAU Christophe FRA C.A at 00' 12"
9 064 JULICH Bobby USA CSC at 00' 12"
10 005 HINCAPIE George USA USP at 00' 12"
11 025 GUTIERREZ José Enrique ESP PHO at 00' 14"
12 119 VICIOSO Angel ESP LST at 00' 15"
13 151 LEIPHEIMER Levi USA RAB at 00' 15"
14 067 SASTRE Carlos ESP CSC at 00' 15"
15 062 ARVESEN Kurt-Asle NOR CSC at 00' 16"
16 011 ULLRICH Jan GER TMO at 00' 17"
17 006 LANDIS Floyd USA USP at 00' 18"
18 021 HAMILTON Tyler USA PHO at 00' 18"
19 004 EKIMOV Viatceslav RUS USP at 00' 19"
20 065 PERON Andrea ITA CSC at 00' 19"

Pos. N° Name Nat. Eq. Time
1 043 CANCELLARA Fabian SUI FAS in 4h 47' 11"
2 057 HUSHOVD Thor NOR C.A at 00' 04"


I'm sure Rangers will be very happy when Thor will be wearing the yellow jersey this time tomorrow, Cancellara can't beat him in the sprints for the bonification seconds.

I'm sure Rangers will be very happy when Thor will be wearing the yellow jersey this time tomorrow, Cancellara can't beat him in the sprints for the bonification seconds.

not so quick...a lot can happen. maybe we'll see a group tomorrow, but it's unlikely. but o'grady seems to be a candidate for the yellow jersey. he sprints during the stage and at the end and is not the slowest.

Busting a gut on the prologue? That doesn't seem like good strategy to me. He's too busy trying to win a 'psychological battle', does he really think people will be awed by him for stepping up over a few meaningless miles? This doesn't look like the same cagey, patient tactician that won so many tours.

Doesn't matter, they'll be in awe once they reach the mountain stages.

not so quick...a lot can happen. maybe we'll see a group tomorrow, but it's unlikely. but o'grady seems to be a candidate for the yellow jersey. he sprints during the stage and at the end and is not the slowest.

No way he can make up 20 seconds on Hushovd. The top sprinters usually don't really care for the bonification sprints as it does limit their chances on the final sprint.

He might get his hand on the yellow a bit later though, but i would really put money on Hushovd being in the yellow tomorrow

No way he can make up 20 seconds on Hushovd. The top sprinters usually don't really care for the bonification sprints as it does limit their chances on the final sprint.


o'grady sprinted today at the 3rd boni-sprint, so he might do it tomorrow again.


He might get his hand on the yellow a bit later though, but i would really put money on Hushovd being in the yellow tomorrow

at least he's a good bet for the green jersey in paris, it seems.

btw: i wouldn't be surprised to see jens voigt attacking tomorrow again. he still can get his yellow jersey.

That looks off, SNA. Armstrong was second, +:02 behind in the prologue.

kov,
I didn't think Armstrong could ever be accused of going all out on a prologue. He just looked a little sharper than the Big Four, but on a short time trial, it wasn't that big of a deal.

Liggett and Sherwen made more than one observation on Bradley McGee's tough day. He couldn't even keep up with the peleton, and finished a couple minutes behind. I didn't see him go down at any time, although he may have. Even if he did, it would have had to have happened early on with more than enough time to catch up. He reportedly admitted before the prologue that he felt off, and he sure looked it today.

Where is Beloki this year? Did he lose his ride?

Where is Beloki this year? Did he lose his ride?

I've been wondering the same thing. Also, where is ONCE this year, and where is Santiago Botero?

Where is Beloki this year? Did he lose his ride?

Beloki hasn't been able to return to full fitness after his fall last year in the Tour (I'm sure you'll remember that one). He is back on the bike, but getting into top form takes a while and he has decided to concentrate on the Vuelta (Tour of Spain) instead.


I've been wondering the same thing. Also, where is ONCE this year, and where is Santiago Botero?

ONCE decided to pull back from sponsoring cycling after last season. The riders went in different directions.
Beloki for instance ended up with Brioches La Boulangères? However he quit that team in early june after it became clear that French law wouldn't allow him to use an Astma spray he needed as it contained cortisone. Furthermore once it became clear he wasn't going to get ready for the Tour he probably didn't want to stay there anyway.

The main part of ONCE (including team leader Manolo Saez) has now transformed into Liberty-Seguros. That team includes the likes of Roberto Heras and Igor Gonzalez de Galdeano.


As for Santiago Botero, he's finally been able to regain some sort of form and was one of the most outstanding guys in the Tour the Suisse, however he is now using all his abilities in order to serve Jan Ullrich, as he is now in his third season with Team Telekom.

jens voigt said in german television that as long as there's a chance to get the yellow jersey he will attack and attack and attack. and he feels that he's in his best shape ever.

i think we will see a damn awesome jens voigt the next days. he's such a great cyclist if it comes to fighting.

today we have two 4th class mountain sprints and three boni-sprints. the first boni-sprint is after 50kms so maybe there's a group on top. but i think the last two sprints could be interesting for o'grady, hushovd, voigt and cancellara.

Finally a sport for the real men, where people don't dive and make theatre. They are the real warriors.

My podium prediction:

1. Lance Amstrong
2. Jan Ullrich
3. Roberto Heras

today's stage has started:

Results of 1st Climb
The results of the Cote de l'M. de Bomeree are:
1. Paolo Bettini (QSD) 3pts
2. Janeck Tombak (COF) 2pts
3. Jimmy Casper (COF) 1pt

looks like tombak wants to fight bettini for this jersey.

a group of six has attempeted an escape and three wants to follow.

german 24 y old sebastian lang (team gerolsteiner) is the best in standings out of the top6. :handclap:

nick gates who lost 30min yesterday is out of the tour. he had a crash.

US postal is leading the peloton and i really wonder why.

Jerome Pineau (France) BLB
Jakob Piil (Denmark) CSC
Sebastian Lang (Germany) GST
Christophe Edelaine (France) COF
Mark Scanlon (Ireland) A2R
Christophe Mengin (France) FDJ

these riders are the escapees and will probably dominate the stage for a while. interesting group!

no one else following it?

Pos. N° Name Nat. Eq. Time
1 043 CANCELLARA Fabian SUI FAS in 06' 50"
2 001 ARMSTRONG Lance USA USP at 00' 02"
3 074 GUTIERREZ José Ivan ESP IBB at 00' 08"
4 161 MC GEE Bradley AUS FDJ at 00' 09"
5 057 HUSHOVD Thor NOR C.A at 00' 10"
6 027 PEREIRO SIO Oscar ESP PHO at 00' 11"
7 069 VOIGT Jens GER CSC at 00' 11"
8 051 MOREAU Christophe FRA C.A at 00' 12"
9 064 JULICH Bobby USA CSC at 00' 12"
10 005 HINCAPIE George USA USP at 00' 12"
11 025 GUTIERREZ José Enrique ESP PHO at 00' 14"
12 119 VICIOSO Angel ESP LST at 00' 15"
13 151 LEIPHEIMER Levi USA RAB at 00' 15"
14 067 SASTRE Carlos ESP CSC at 00' 15"
15 062 ARVESEN Kurt-Asle NOR CSC at 00' 16"
16 011 ULLRICH Jan GER TMO at 00' 17"
17 006 LANDIS Floyd USA USP at 00' 18"
18 021 HAMILTON Tyler USA PHO at 00' 18"
19 004 EKIMOV Viatceslav RUS USP at 00' 19"
20 065 PERON Andrea ITA CSC at 00' 19"

1. From now on Cancellara will likely put all his cards on the final time-trial at the end of the Tour. Let's hope for him that he's still fresh.
2. I think Armstrong will be the first to win the Tour for the 6th time.
3. Gutierrez is an all-rounder. Solid in the mountains, good in the flat stages and time-trial abilities as well. He will likely finish in the Top25.
4. I predict a exit for McGee within now and four days.
5. Thor Hushovd is a viking, like they only exist in Norway. 100% dedication and one piece granite. Tough customer for the green jersey, is fast but not fast enough. He's also capable to collect points in other stages, together with the points in the sprints and you have a good chance to win the green jersey.
6. Oscar Pereiro is not somebody to trifle with. Is good in time-trials and solid in the mountains. Will finish in the top15, mark my words.
7. Jens Voigt: Attacker from profession. Doesn't have any fear to attack when there are still 200 kilometres to go.
8. Moreau, I'm not sure about him. I wonder how strong he's in the mountains, is very injury prone (sickness). If he's good, the he will likely finish in the top10 because of his time-trials abilites.
9. Surprising result from Bobby Julich. He didn't live up to expectations after his TDF performance in 1998 and we have to see what he brings next. It wouldn't be the first time that we thought that Julich has made a come-back.
10. George Hincapie. Valuable servant from Armstrong. Is capable to lead the group in the flat stages and on the first kilometres of a mountain.

Results Of Sprint In Mons
The points at the intermediate sprint in Mons were won by:
1. Christophe Edalaine (COF) 6pts/6"
2. Mark Scanlon (A2R) 4pts/4"
3. Jerome Pineau (BLB) 2pts/2"

i don't know if this means something for the standings. but i guess not much.

they are now around 5min ahead of the peloton.

hushovd was involved in the crash a few minutes ago. that could be bad for his ambitions to get the yellow jersey.

cancellara could keep it now.

hushovd was involved in the crash a few minutes ago. that could be bad for his ambitions to get the yellow jersey.

cancellara could keep it now.
Yes, I think CA did wrong to let these guys get away so Hushofd couldn't have a go at the bonification sprints.

He would have to be top 3 in the sprint in a few minutes and he might not fast enough for that, especially after this crash, this time Petacchi and Boonen won't have the same problems as yesterday. McEwen, Kirsipuu, ...

Yes, I think CA did wrong to let these guys get away so Hushofd couldn't have a go at the bonification sprints.


agreed. at least they should have got them earlier so he could have won the 3rd sprint.


He would have to be top 3 in the sprint in a few minutes and he might not fast enough for that, especially after this crash, this time Petacchi and Boonen won't have the same problems as yesterday. McEwen, Kirsipuu, ...

a surprise could be danilo hondo. he is not the fastest, but he could win a stage too. unfortunately he has no helpers.

He would have to be top 3 in the sprint in a few minutes and he might not fast enough for that, especially after this crash, this time Petacchi and Boonen won't have the same problems as yesterday. McEwen, Kirsipuu, ...


:blush:

Thor got in second, the new yellow jersey, my prediction from yesterday comes true, I should have put money on it.


Nasty fall by Arvesen in the last 250 metres by the way, hopefully he's OK

:blush:

Thor got in second, the new yellow jersey, my prediction from yesterday comes true, I should have put money on it.


congrats to thor and you, for betting right.


Nasty fall by Arvesen in the last 250 metres by the way, hopefully he's OK

who was the 2nd rider who fell?

Jimmy Casper.

Jimmy Casper.

ah thanks. both looked ok after a few minutes, it seems.

ah thanks. both looked ok after a few minutes, it seems.

Yeah but from experience I know that bruises and grazes are terrible to ride with. We have to see how much this will affect them.

Pos. N° Name Nat. Eq. Time
1 057 HUSHOVD Thor NOR C.A in 9h 05' 42"
2 043 CANCELLARA Fabian SUI FAS at 00' 08"
3 181 MC EWEN Robbie AUS LOT at 00' 17"
4 001 ARMSTRONG Lance USA USP at 00' 18"
5 069 VOIGT Jens GER CSC at 00' 23"
6 074 GUTIERREZ José Ivan ESP IBB at 00' 24"
7 027 PEREIRO SIO Oscar ESP PHO at 00' 27"
8 051 MOREAU Christophe FRA C.A at 00' 28"
9 064 JULICH Bobby USA CSC at 00' 28"
10 005 HINCAPIE George USA USP at 00' 28"
11 025 GUTIERREZ José Enrique ESP PHO at 00' 30"
12 119 VICIOSO Angel ESP LST at 00' 31"
13 151 LEIPHEIMER Levi USA RAB at 00' 31"
14 067 SASTRE Carlos ESP CSC at 00' 31"
15 062 ARVESEN Kurt-Asle NOR CSC at 00' 32"
16 091 O'GRADY Stuart AUS COF at 00' 33"
17 011 ULLRICH Jan GER TMO at 00' 33"
18 006 LANDIS Floyd USA USP at 00' 34"
19 021 HAMILTON Tyler USA PHO at 00' 34"
20 165 EISEL Bernhard AUT FDJ at 00' 34"

Exciting stage today as Robbie McEwen took the yellow jersey and Jean-Patrick Nazon won the stage.

More significantly, George Hincapie and Viatcheslav Ekimov led a huge break in the peloton that took Armstrong, Ullrich, and Hamilton with them, left Heras behind (although he recovered and caught them), and left Iban Mayo almost 4 minutes behind. Given that his team will likely lose more time in the team time trial tomorrow (holy aliteration, Batman), Mayo's chances of winning the Tour could be finished.

:blush:

Thor got in second, the new yellow jersey, my prediction from yesterday comes true, I should have put money on it.


Nasty fall by Arvesen in the last 250 metres by the way, hopefully he's OK

Arvesen is OK. He`ll come back stronger in the next few days...

And what about Thor? Slow? Anyone said he was slow? Hmm... :lol

Pos. N° Name Nat. Eq. Time
1 181 MC EWEN Robbie AUS LOT in 13h 42' 34"
2 043 CANCELLARA Fabian SUI FAS at 00' 01"
3 069 VOIGT Jens GER CSC at 00' 09"
4 147 NAZON Jean-Patrick FRA A2R at 00' 12"
5 001 ARMSTRONG Lance USA USP at 00' 16"
6 083 HONDO Danilo GER GST at 00' 22"
7 019 ZABEL Erik GER TMO at 00' 23"
8 025 GUTIERREZ José Enrique ESP PHO at 00' 23"
9 151 LEIPHEIMER Levi USA RAB at 00' 24"
10 027 PEREIRO SIO Oscar ESP PHO at 00' 25"
11 064 JULICH Bobby USA CSC at 00' 26"
12 005 HINCAPIE George USA USP at 00' 26"
13 103 BOONEN Tom BEL QSD at 00' 28"
14 119 VICIOSO Angel ESP LST at 00' 29"
15 067 SASTRE Carlos ESP CSC at 00' 29"
16 153 DE GROOT Bram NED RAB at 00' 30"
17 062 ARVESEN Kurt-Asle NOR CSC at 00' 30"
18 011 ULLRICH Jan GER TMO at 00' 31"
19 006 LANDIS Floyd USA USP at 00' 32"
20 021 HAMILTON Tyler USA PHO at 00' 32"

Anyone knows how much is the maximum late abmitted for the teams time trial??
The new rule will prevent any team to lose more than that.

That could be pretty important. After watching the stages scheduled for this year i think the teams trial gets even more importance than in the past years. :dunno:
In fact there is only one individual time trial and few hard mountains.
I think that improves Ivan Basso's chances to fight for a spot on the podium in Paris. Last year he finished seventh but was able to stay with Armstrong and Ulrich on the mountains almost everytime. This is year he is with CSC, that team could do very well today considering also their results on the prologue.
Thoughts?
Belgian Fan, what do you think of Basso's chances?

Anyone knows how much is the maximum late abmitted for the teams time trial??
The new rule will prevent any team to lose more than that.

The past few years you couldn't lose more than 5 minutes in the teams time trial.


And what about Thor? Slow? Anyone said he was slow? Hmm... :lol

Nobody has said he was slow. He won't win a group sprint, perhaps at the end of the Tour when everybody is out. ;)

If you want to have some fun, listen to Liggett on streaming audio. He and Sherwen are the absolute best. Anywho, from their description, it seemed like no small miracle that Phonak held it together today. The Tour website reported a whole lot of rain today.

I never thought a contender's Tour could be all but over before they got anywhere near the mountains, but I guess that's what yesterday did to Mayo. Can somebody explain to me what happened to Mayo yesterday after the split? It sounded like he was in trouble after he crashed, then it sounded like he was 10-20 seconds back of the leader's peleton (this is when Stan fell asleep watching his VCR recording), but he ended up almost 4 minutes back. I knew earlier in the day he was 3:53 back in the stage, but how did he go from 10-20 seconds to 3:53? Was he 10-20 seconds back of the second peleton and I misinterpreted what I heard?

Oh by the way, I'm getting a little tired of hearing daily Lance updates from Sheryl Crow. When Al Trautwig asked her if this experience has inspired her to write any songs, I knew it was time to check out.

Okay, Stan, let's keep this about the race.

OK...I`ve got a question:

Isn`t it an unwritten rule that when the rider with the yellow jersey is somehow delayed due to a crash or another incident that he`s not responsible for...the other riders in the pack wait and at least doesn`t take advantage of the situation (ala Ullrich last year)? Yesterday...as soon as the big crash occurred US Postal took command of the 1st group, increased the tempo and pulled away from Thor with the yellow jersey and a guy like Mayo. Unfair? Hell yes!

I think US Postal play it dirty... :shakehead

OK...I`ve got a question:

Isn`t it an unwritten rule that when the rider with the yellow jersey is somehow delayed due to a crash or another incident that he`s not responsible for...the other riders in the pack wait and at least doesn`t take advantage of the situation (ala Ullrich last year)? Yesterday...as soon as the big crash occurred US Postal took command of the 1st group, increased the tempo and pulled away from Thor with the yellow jersey and a guy like Mayo. Unfair? Hell yes!

I think US Postal play it dirty... :shakehead
Yes, that was not nice at all. But others (Ullrich, Hamilton) played that game too...

Yes, that was not nice at all. But others (Ullrich, Hamilton) played that game too...

Yea, but it was US Postal that took the lead and increased the speed...They are to blame IMO

no strizzi they didnt. Ullrich and Hamilton had to keep up with Armstrong in order to have a shot at the yellow. When US Postal goes crazy and starts driving only a fool would let them (and thus armstrong) get away to gain an even bigger advantage. If the guys lucky enough to sit in the first group slowed down to play it fair while US Postal gave everything they had in order to take advantage, it would practically be the same as handing Armstrong the yellow jersey 3 stages in

last year Armstrong (yellow) fell on one of the mountain stages. Ullrich stopped and waited for Armstrong instead of taking advantage of the situation. Clearly, the American team dosnt have enough respect for the other riders to answer with the same "fair play" when they are in Ullrichs place.

disgrace

Weren't they chasing a couple of riders down? I'm sure those guys would've stopped if they knew the yellow jersey behind them had crashed.

How about Phonak, they rode a hell of a race... from what I read. Damn work!

Allez Tyler!

last year Armstrong (yellow) fell on one of the mountain stages. Ullrich stopped and waited for Armstrong instead of taking advantage of the situation. Clearly, the American team dosnt have enough respect for the other riders to answer with the same "fair play" when they are in Ullrichs place.

disgraceYeah, because Armstrong has never waited for Ullrich... Wait, he did... 2 years before on that same climb!

what happend 2 years ago has very little to do with anything right now
Unwritten ethic rules like not taking advantage of other peoples misfortune have always been a major part of sports. Much the same with cycling as amateur golf..where every fool can "cheat" in order to improve his handicap, but tradition and values are put ahead of a low score


its a question about fair play today, not last year not 50 years ago and certainly not 5000 years ago.
And as i pointed out, "Fair Play" was obviously nowhere to be found in Belgium yesterday

Sounds to me like sour grapes....

Sounds to me like sour grapes....

Good for you. Great response! :handclap:

what happend 2 years ago has very little to do with anything right now
Unwritten ethic rules like not taking advantage of other peoples misfortune have always been a major part of sports. Much the same with cycling as amateur golf..where every fool can "cheat" in order to improve his handicap, but tradition and values are put ahead of a low score


its a question about fair play today, not last year not 50 years ago and certainly not 5000 years ago.
And as i pointed out, "Fair Play" was obviously nowhere to be found in France yesterday

Sio you point out something from one year ago, but don't care what happened two years ago? :help:

Here's a few things to consider:

-if the Peloton slowed down to pick up Mayo and company, then Jens Voight possibly never gets caught and runs away with the stage and the yellow jersey.

-it's true that the big three (USPS, Phonak, T-Mobile) paced the Peloton to form the initial break, but the sprinters' teams (like Fassa) were the ones who really opened up the gap. Mayo's group was about two minutes back when the Peloton was within 30 seconds of the leaders. They ended up almost four minutes behind because as soon as Voight was caught the sprinting teams threw down the gauntlet in a race for the finish line.

-Hushovd is not an important enough racer for the Peloton to grind to a hault for him just because he's in the maillot jaune.

-there is a big difference between some breakaway group waiting for a crash victim (ala Lance/Jan in years past) and half of the Peloton waiting for the other half of the Peloton.

yes i point out something from one year ago to prove a point. That when one of your rivals experience misfortune, you do not take advantage. Im sure that Armstrong have played it fair before as well and stopped, but the past is not the point we are discussing here, and yesterday US Postal most certainly didnt play it fair

Now to answer the second half of your post. you as well as myself and probably most guys watching the Tour KNOW that only a few of the athletes are capable of finishing in yellow. Armstrong, Mayo, Hamilton, Ullrich, Basso and a couple of others if they suddenly get alot better. If Voight decides to go and ends up winning the stage, there is no way in hell he will "possibly never get caught and runs away with the stage and the yellow jersey". In the end rankings he dosnt have a chance. Sure he can win the stage with a few minutes, but it wont matter amongst the big guys. Sprinters will always be ahead to keep the pace high, but that dosnt justify the fact that US Postal sent their team in front to drive

The other thing to consider is that the teams had to go over the pave as quickly as possible for maximum safety, and also wanted to maintain their positions while doing so. If the Big Three had slowed the pace down, they certainly would have been passed by some other teams and risked being in the middle of the Peloton while on the cobblestones, and they would have also been at an undesirable speed for going through that section.

Ullrich went wide in the downhill some years ago. Armstrong decided to slow and let Ullrich catch with his team-mate.

I think that was the incident which thesiver remembers.

Wasn't Mayo guilty last year or the year before of riding behind Ullrich for a long ways, and then stealing a stage at the end? And IIRC, Mayo hasn't exactly been one to ever hold up for someone else. Ullrich held for Armstrong last year because Armstrong had done it for Ullrich before. Mayo ... well, he reaps what he sows. As he said himself after stage 3, he wouldn't have waited for anyone else.

In any case, with the desire to get through the cobblestones quickly, you can't blame those guys for not slowing down. And Mayo wasn't that far back, but his team took 2-4 minutes to come back and help him, and when they did they weren't good enough to get him back. Heras, OTOH, was also in that 2nd group for a while but his team was johnny on the spot and they were strong enough to help him work his way back up to the first group. So it wasn't like Armstrong, Ullrich, and Hamilton were attacking all-out or anything.

Mayo's team was terrible on the cobbles ... they looked completely disorganized, with some guys trying to ride the grass, guys all over the road. They hadn't raced there before and it showed. And there is no excuse for taking as long as they did to send Mayo help in the first place. They have no one to blame but themselves for not being able to get back into it.

look, im not saying that the other big guns should drop themselves down Mayos group, im just questioning the fact that the same moment as US Postals manager learned about the situation brewing, he threw everything he had on the table to take advantage of the problems/misfortune.

There is no question that the only reason why US Postal took charge and started driving was to increase distance between Armstrong and Mayo in the overall standings. Every expert you ask will give you the same answer. And to me, that is a violation of the "gentleman-code" in the race..something i strongly dislike. Armstrong has been on both sides of the fence several times through his 10 year Tour history...and as far as i can remember, he slowed down when the situation called for it, and was helped by others when in similar situations. What happend yesterday was truly a very arrogant answer to a situation which demanded a more subtle and fair solution. I just hope that US Postal and Armstrong in particular will suffer the same faith as Mayo, that everybody try to take advantage of the their/his misfortune, and that justice will be fullfilled at last

Another thing: Liberty Seguros managed to get Roberto Heras back into the race due to good team organization and a good pave strategy. Euskaltel did a horrid job of not only getting back and protecting Mayo (who was forced to ride on his own for several minutes) but also of tackling the pave (where Mayo was actually riding on the grass for a while).

Here's a quote from Armstrong after the race: "It was not my intention to attack while a contender crashed, but we had to be the first through the cobble stones, then we had to race to be the first through the second set of cobble stones."

Basically, this stage was raced under the "Roubaix Rules" which basically say to keep attacking so long as there is still pave ahead. One of the splits in the Peloton occured merely because the best teams were better over the cobbles than the other teams were.

look, im not saying that the other big guns should drop themselves down Mayos group, im just questioning the fact that the same moment as US Postals manager learned about the situation brewing, he threw everything he had on the table to take advantage of the problems/misfortune.


Landis said they were already at a high pace going in, so really it was a matter of some teams not being able to keep up rather than a couple teams attacking. All they did was keep their pace, and if Mayo's team had been quicker to react and more capable on the cobblestones, they would never have lost anywhere near as much time as they did.

And let's face it, if you're at the front and decide to slow down before entering pave, then you're a fool, because you're just asking to crash yourself along with other riders. The mountains are an entirely different beast, because everyone's strung out over a long distance.

Sportsmanship is great, but not when you have to do something stupid in order to fulfill the requirements.

Besides, McEwen fell on the 2nd pave, and I didn't see all the other green jersey contenders holding up for him.

In any case, singling out US Postal is silly ... Ullrich said it was his plan to go as fast as possible through the cobbles, hopefully to gain time on Heras and Mayo. Heras and his team were strong enough to fight their way back, Mayo's team was not.

Was off to France for two days so I oculdn't jump in on the thread, I have some catching up to do :)

@Helicecopter: I don't think Basso is going to get on the podium, I haven't been impressed by his outings this year. He's going to lose a significant amount of time on the time trails on the three remaining big guns and is not the person to gain time in the mountains (if he is in good form he won't loose much though, very tough to get rid of him - plenty of grinta)


As for yesterday, I can understand that Mayo wasn't happy at what happened, but I don't agree with him. Hushovd also got held up by a fall, but all in all, he isn't all that important in the big story of the Tour so they shouldn't have waited for him anyway.

The thing is, it was impossible for Phonak, Team Telekom and USP to slow down. With the cobstones coming, the race always heats up, the reason is of course that every team wants to get it's leader in the front of the peloton. The chances of falling and the chances of loosing time are of course much smaller when you're in the front of the group. If they would've slowed down, all the work of the miles before would've been in vain and it would have made things dangerous for the leaders of the teams themselves.

Furthermore, Iban Mayo just plain sucked on the Pavés. He's a climber and it was clear that he's not made for the 'hell of the North', he was very lucky not to go down once more or have a puncture or two the way he was trying to get back. Everyone knows that you have to take the cobstones full speed on the top of the cobstones, not on the little pieces of grass next to the route. And when he did take the pavés it was clear how bad he was at it, he seemed to hit the stones as opposed to the good riders who rather 'fly over' the stones.


After a few days it has alse become clear that USP has the strongest team, not just in the time trail of today, but also in the way they were able to win the batlle yesterday and manoevre Lance to the front rows of the peloton.


So all in all, the fact that there were two guys away didn't have an important part to play at all (Lance isn't going to defend the yellow he gained today anyway at this point) but the fact that it is just normal procedure that the peloton goes flat out in the lead up to cobstones and on the cobstones themselves, otherwise everyone would have jeopardised his chances.
But what do the Spanish know about paves anyway? It's a good thing they learned about it the hard way, that will learn them to respect the classics a bit more instead of just sticking to their own little cylcing world up there in Iberia.


But I said I understand Mayo, and the reason is the following: if Lance would have been the one to fall, the peloton would have waited. But that's simply because Lance has earned the respect of the peloton, and Mayo hasn't been able to do that yet.

But I said I understand Mayo, and the reason is the following: if Lance would have been the one to fall, the peloton would have waited. But that's simply because Lance has earned the respect of the peloton, and Mayo hasn't been able to do that yet.

Yes, perhaps they would have slowed down a bit once they were past the cobblestones if it were Armstrong. OTOH, Armstrong wouldn't have rode the pave so poorly when trying to come back ... Mayo's team was doing such a poor job on the cobbles, the peleton would have had to slow down to a VERY slow pace to let him catch up.

At some point, there's a minimum level of speed you have to maintain in order to have a reasonable expectation of everyone else holding up; it's one thing if you're keeping pace a little bit behind, it's another when you're going significantly slower. What Mayo and his team showed was that they probably would have lost a couple minutes on the cobbles even without the crash.

Armstrong's fall last year was due to a day-dreaming spectator, whereas Mayo's was due to a collision with riders. Nobody cares about Stan, so nobody answered my question about what happened after the fall when it seemed Mayo crept closer yet still finished 3:53 behind, so Stan can't really provide an informed opinion. Thanks. Thanks a lot! :-)

It's a slippery slope, for sure, when everyone's left to interpret rules of "good conduct" on their own. Why doesn't the peleton wait for everyone who falls? That's a rhetorical question (I understand what's going on here), so answers will be ignored.

Armstrong's fall last year was due to a day-dreaming spectator, whereas Mayo's was due to a collision with riders. Nobody cares about Stan, so nobody answered my question about what happened after the fall when it seemed Mayo crept closer yet still finished 3:53 behind, so Stan can't really provide an informed opinion. Thanks. Thanks a lot! :-)


I talked about this a bit earlier. After getting off the final stretch of pave, the sprinting teams (like Fassa-Bortalo) threw down the gauntlet and drove the Peloton forward to catch Jens Voight and set up their big men (McEwen, Patacchi, Hondo, Nazon, etc.) for the finish. This was coupled with a total surrender by the chase group as they raced lethargically the rest of the way. USPS was only pacing the Peloton through the pave stretches, they dropped back once they noticed they were doing all the work, forcing T-Mobile and Phonak to pick up more of the slack.

Bradley McGee retires. Not surprising, he hasn't been 100% fit after his fall and was 3rd to last after yesterday's TTT.

Good breakaway going on, with Piil (CSC), O'Grady (Cofidis), Voeckler (BlB), Bäckstedt (Alessio) and Casar (Fdjeux)

I talked about this a bit earlier. After getting off the final stretch of pave, the sprinting teams (like Fassa-Bortalo) threw down the gauntlet and drove the Peloton forward to catch Jens Voight and set up their big men (McEwen, Patacchi, Hondo, Nazon, etc.) for the finish. This was coupled with a total surrender by the chase group as they raced lethargically the rest of the way. USPS was only pacing the Peloton through the pave stretches, they dropped back once they noticed they were doing all the work, forcing T-Mobile and Phonak to pick up more of the slack.
I'm still not happy with that description. Can you re-enact it in mime for me? :-)

Too bad about McGee. This rain is reeking havoc on a number of riders.

Hehe...was cheering for either O`Grady or one of the Frenchmen to win it. As long as the Dane or Swede didn`t finish first I`m happy! :handclap:

I often don't care who wins a stage, but I always want to see a breakaway rider to win.

Today it happened for the first time in this Tour. :)

I often don't care who wins a stage, but I always want to see a breakaway rider to win.

Today it happened for the first time in this Tour. :)

No surprise of course, Lance wanted to get rid of the yellow ASAP and he did exactly that today. This will allow the postmen to take a few days of rest before the mountain stages.

I hope the weather turns to hot very soon, otherwise Lance will just destroy everyone in the first mountain stage and the Tour will be completely over too soon.

No surprise of course, Lance wanted to get rid of the yellow ASAP and he did exactly that today. This will allow the postmen to take a few days of rest before the mountain stages.

I hope the weather turns to hot very soon, otherwise Lance will just destroy everyone in the first mountain stage and the Tour will be completely over too soon.

So the years of Lance living in Texas isn't gonna help him?...oooookay

So the years of Lance living in Texas isn't gonna help him?...oooookay

Armstrong has already shown in the past that heavy heat is one of his biggest (possibly only) weaknesses.

Well, I thought last year was the beginning of Armstrong's decline, but as the days roll by in this year's Tour, I'm starting to think it was an anomoly. I now think dehydration - and not the competitive advantage - got the best of him last year.

I think BF was implying that if he continues to ride as he has so far, the rest of the field's hope is slim and probably limited to another bout of sickness and dehydration for Armstrong. I sure don't want the Tour to be over before the sun goes down on Bastille Day, either. It is a long race, but he just manages his ride and Postal so darn well that there isn't much of a precendent for him imploding.

So the years of Lance living in Texas isn't gonna help him?...oooookay

It is known all around that Lance doesn't like hot weather at all. He thrives in horrible weather though...
For instance won the World Championship in Oslo back in 1993 in apocalyptic circumstances - but somehow I don't think many Americans remember that
His most famous tour victories also came in rainy weather.

When the weather is hot lik it sometimes can be in France Lance looses some of his abilities, he just doesn't like it at all and the results have shown this in the past (just think of last year - he sucked in the pyrenees until a cool breeze started blowing)


If you compare that to Jan Ullrich, he simply hates the rain and the cold. He has never liked the rain and only feels at home when it's 35 degrees celcius, the exact opposite of Lance.

How is the weather looking for today?

How is the weather looking for today?

I think it's still going to be pretty rainy today.

No big deal at the moment though, there's still plenty of time before the pyrenees.


oh, today we will see a group sprint. Voeckler and his team will defend the yellow jersey as long as they can (he could keep it for up to a week) so the teams of the sprinters will have plenty of help to keep possible attackers close.

I'm starting to thin Petacchi won't win a stage in this Tour, either McEwen (my favorite today) or Boonen (he can't continue to suck like this, he's too good for that) will win the stage.

I think it's still going to be pretty rainy today.

No big deal at the moment though, there's still plenty of time before the pyrenees.


oh, today we will see a group sprint. Voeckler and his team will defend the yellow jersey as long as they can (he could keep it for up to a week) so the teams of the sprinters will have plenty of help to keep possible attackers close.

I'm starting to thin Petacchi won't win a stage in this Tour, either McEwen (my favorite today) or Boonen (he can't continue to suck like this, he's too good for that) will win the stage.

Petacchi is out of the race following injuries in the crash, as is Cipollini. So two great sprinters out of the race. That's good for riders like McEwen and Nazon who compete for the green jersey.

6-man breakaway going on, Kurt-Asle Arvesen (Team CSC), Juan Antonio Flecha (Fassa Bortolo), Jimmy Engoulvent (Cofidis), Alessandro Bertolini (Alessio-Bianchi), Marc Lotz (Rabobank) and Carlos Dacruz (Fdjeux.com).

Arvesen is best in general classification, now 25th 10.39 behind Voeckler

I think it's still going to be pretty rainy today.

No big deal at the moment though, there's still plenty of time before the pyrenees.


oh, today we will see a group sprint. Voeckler and his team will defend the yellow jersey as long as they can (he could keep it for up to a week) so the teams of the sprinters will have plenty of help to keep possible attackers close.

I'm starting to thin Petacchi won't win a stage in this Tour, either McEwen (my favorite today) or Boonen (he can't continue to suck like this, he's too good for that) will win the stage.

Nice call on Boonen.

Pos. N° Name Nat. Eq. Time
1 129 VOECKLER Thomas FRA BLB in 24h 37' 30"
2 091 O'GRADY Stuart AUS COF at 03' 01"
3 162 CASAR Sandy FRA FDJ at 04' 06"
4 131 BACKSTEDT Magnus SWE ALB at 06' 06"
5 066 PIIL Jakob DEN CSC at 06' 58"
6 001 ARMSTRONG Lance USA USP at 09' 35"
7 005 HINCAPIE George USA USP at 09' 45"
8 006 LANDIS Floyd USA USP at 09' 51"
9 002 AZEVEDO José POR USP at 09' 57"
10 009 RUBIERA José Luis ESP USP at 09' 59"
11 025 GUTIERREZ José Enrique ESP PHO at 10' 02"
12 004 EKIMOV Viatceslav RUS USP at 10' 05"
13 021 HAMILTON Tyler USA PHO at 10' 11"
14 023 GONZALEZ Santos ESP PHO at 10' 12"
15 019 ZABEL Erik GER TMO at 10' 14"
16 024 GRABSCH Bert GER PHO at 10' 16"
17 069 VOIGT Jens GER CSC at 10' 18"
18 029 SEVILLA Oscar ESP PHO at 10' 19"
19 003 BELTRAN Manuel ESP USP at 10' 22"
20 078 PRADERA Mikel ESP IBB at 10' 30"

So here's a hypothetical question for our resident experts: if the TdF were an individual race with only, say the top 10 contenders for the overall winner in it, who do you think would win?

I.e., without teams, who do you think would win a race over this set of courses?

How far back is Jan in the GC?

So here's a hypothetical question for our resident experts: if the TdF were an individual race with only, say the top 10 contenders for the overall winner in it, who do you think would win?

I.e., without teams, who do you think would win a race over this set of courses?

Still either Lance or Jan.

So here's a hypothetical question for our resident experts: if the TdF were an individual race with only, say the top 10 contenders for the overall winner in it, who do you think would win?

I.e., without teams, who do you think would win a race over this set of courses?


That's a very hypothetical question as it would be no longer a race but something more of a time trail in that case. And doing all those kilometres on your own will mean the speed of the race would be a lot closer to 30 kilometres/hour than 40+ (like it is now)

Anyway, the teams are incredibly important in cycling, but at the end of the day the strenght of the leader determines everything. Having only ten participants with no teams will only strenghten this effect: Armstrong and Ullrich would simply destroy the rest, they are the two riders with the biggest motors of the bunch.
I think Ullrich would be the favorite, his natural talent would come in to play even more o such occasions but that's debatable.

Furthermore, the climbers would have no chance at all, the flat stages still make for the bulk of the Tour and they would simply be blown away (even literally) by the bigger, stronger guys.


How far back is Jan in the GC?

21 011 ULLRICH Jan GER TMO à 10' 30

Minute behind Lance

Rudy Pevenage (Jan's personal team leader if you wish) wrote in his newspaper column today that he himself was rather dissapointed in the Telekom performance of the Team- Time trail.
And he has a point, it is unnaceptable for a guy with a team like that to be back that far allready without doing much wrong. Yet these comments also reflect the lingering problems between Godefroot (Team T manager) and Pevenage, but that would lead us too far.



Some more details on the problems of the last kilometer: apparently Haselbacher was the one who caused the fall, he himself being the main victim (broken nose and some other wounds, won't start tomorrow)
McEwen was hurt pretty badly too and has severe wounds on his behind, was also hit in the neck but will start tomorrow, but it will be hard for him to race tomorrow.

Also after the fall McEwen apparently started a tirade against Haselbacher blaming him for the accident and his unacceptable behaviour, and Haselbacher apparently took it to the heart as he has serious mental problems because of being blamed according to his team. They are considering complaining about McEwen' behaviour attacking Haselbacher...

Haselbacher is out of the race, as is Christophe Brandt who failed doping test.

As for Armstrong who waited for Ullrich three years ago after he was crashed...from the first moment I didn't understand why people come up with this nonsense. Armstrong was already 6 minutes ahead in the standings !! and totally owned Ullrich that Tour. Why shouldn't he wait ?


-Hushovd is not an important enough racer for the Peloton to grind to a hault for him just because he's in the maillot jaune.

This is no argument. I don't say he should have waited (the explanations are given) but yellow = yellow. It doesn't matter if it's Armstrong or the local village idiot.

As for Armstrong who waited for Ullrich three years ago after he was crashed...from the first moment I didn't understand why people come up with this nonsense. Armstrong was already 6 minutes ahead in the standings !! and totally owned Ullrich that Tour. Why shouldn't he wait ?


hehe, good point. armstrong plays fair as long as he's still winning. but he's simply a maniac. he wants to win like no one else wants to. he's kinda insane and somehow still a person i enjoy. i don't want him to win, but he's maybe the person who deserves the most because of his work ethics. but i can't cheer for him because of his character.


This is no argument. I don't say he should have waited (the explanations are given) but yellow = yellow. It doesn't matter if it's Armstrong or the local village idiot.

sometimes the so-called local village idiot wins a race. hushovd is no contender for the tour-win, but in general there's always a place for "newbies" to surprise.

i'm quite happy that the tour will finally start with some hills and mountains on tuesday. and i'm still all about mayo and hamilton. the first has nothing to lose and will attack a lot and the second is in a good position and has a nice team, not the best, but a good one.

This isn't really related to this year's Tour, but it's an article from 2001 about Armstrong and cycling in general.

http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/020715fa_fact1

Particularly interesting are Armstrong's attitude in his younger days and the discussion of a cyclist's power output. I know a guy who used to be a competitive triathlete and competed in a few with Armstrong when he was 20-21 years old (as most of you know, he started out on the triathalon circuit), and my friend reiterated the attitude mentioned in the article. In fact, he said he was so cocky that nobody would room with him, but he's mellowed quite a bit over the years. Unfortunately, my friend had a devestating accident about five years ago which kept him in a coma for about four months and in the hospital for about a year. He has all sort of cognitive issues now and still manages to ride and even compete in a few triathalons (although his competitive level now is at "I'm just happy to move without too much pain"). It's sad, although he'd still blow most of us away. Anywho, he said Armstrong regularly asks about him with a mutual friend. I guess it's a small world.

This doesn't mean much; it's just an anecdote for your enjoyment.

Thor de France :bow: :bow: :bow:

The Vikings have returned to Brittany!

Where are the critics now? :lol

"To see the power and the final speed that that big Norwegian Thor Hushovd
has is pretty remarkable. He came off the front of the thinning pack on that
slight rise and just simply powered his way to, what became, a relatively
easy win. It's mind expanding the way some of these guys do it."

"To win a sprint like Hushovd did today, several elements are required: a team committed to leading you to the vital part of the race; the ability to remain calm while a rider like of Paolo Bettini cranks up the pace on the climb in the penultimate kilometer; the power to reach the ‘flamme rouge’ with the leading pack; bike handling skills that allow you to begin sprinting out of turn that’s slippery from rain… and, finally, the conviction that you can catch a rider of Kim Kirchen’s quality despite him having a 50 meter advantage with just 300 meters to go."

That was pretty awesome.

:bow:

Great win by Thor yesterday, extremely impressive.

Still plenty of bickering left for the Green jersey. McEwen is really hurting after his fall (but he's tough as nails though), O'Grady is always dangerous and Thor is in a good position too.

I think the entire peloton will be pleased with the day of rest, hopefully the weather turns better from tuesday on! (I'm going to France next week so it's also of personal importance ;))

Pos. N° Name Nat. Eq. Time
1 129 VOECKLER Thomas FRA BLB in 33h 03' 36"
2 091 O'GRADY Stuart AUS COF at 03' 01"
3 162 CASAR Sandy FRA FDJ at 04' 06"
4 131 BACKSTEDT Magnus SWE ALB at 06' 27"
5 066 PIIL Jakob DEN CSC at 07' 09"
6 001 ARMSTRONG Lance USA USP at 09' 35"
7 005 HINCAPIE George USA USP at 09' 45"
8 002 AZEVEDO José POR USP at 09' 57"
9 025 GUTIERREZ José Enrique ESP PHO at 10' 02"
10 019 ZABEL Erik GER TMO at 10' 06"
11 021 HAMILTON Tyler USA PHO at 10' 11"
12 006 LANDIS Floyd USA USP at 10' 12"
13 023 GONZALEZ Santos ESP PHO at 10' 12"
14 024 GRABSCH Bert GER PHO at 10' 16"
15 071 MANCEBO Francisco ESP IBB at 10' 18"
16 029 SEVILLA Oscar ESP PHO at 10' 19"
17 009 RUBIERA José Luis ESP USP at 10' 20"
18 003 BELTRAN Manuel ESP USP at 10' 22"
19 004 EKIMOV Viatceslav RUS USP at 10' 26"
20 011 ULLRICH Jan GER TMO at 10' 30"

Predictions for tomorrow: Norwegian roll continues and both Arvesen and Hushovd do well. Especially look out for Arvesen tomorrow. I feel it could be his day ;)

Thor de France :bow: :bow: :bow:
:bow:

Anyone know the name of the monkey that went right into the traffic obsticle, did a front flip, and took down Arvesen today? Who does that anyways? What a stupid ****er!

Thank you Belgium and Boonen. You just costed Thor another victory! :shakehead

Good stage today, too bad the leaders had to get caught like that. The real fun begins tomorrow.

The real fun begins tomorrow.

Hear,Hear.

Any predictions for tomorrow? I'm going to bet that Richard Virenque goes for a long break to collect KOM points, especially given that he doesn't have Mont Ventoux this year to set as his main target.

Anyone know the name of the monkey that went right into the traffic obsticle, did a front flip, and took down Arvesen today? Who does that anyways? What a stupid ****er!
I'm sure he didn't do it on purpose (;)), but yeah, that was pretty dumb, and he completely wiped out Kurt-Asle.

Anyone know the name of the monkey that went right into the traffic obsticle, did a front flip, and took down Arvesen today? Who does that anyways? What a stupid ****er!

It was Mikel Pradera. Accidents happen and this was an unfortunate one, luckily enough Kurt Asle is a very solid guy and he should be OK.


Thank you Belgium and Boonen. You just costed Thor another victory! :shakehead

Watch the sprint before saying that, Hushovd came from the outside and sneaked to the right (centre) to block Boonen's path past Landaluze, Hushovd took away Boonen's chances as much as Boonen took away Hushovd's. These things happen in sprints, especially when they aren't well prepared by one team.



Any predictions for tomorrow? I'm going to bet that Richard Virenque goes for a long break to collect KOM points, especially given that he doesn't have Mont Ventoux this year to set as his main target.


There's going to be a battle on two stages tomorrow: the French (Brochard, Virenque, Moreaux, ...) are going to try and win the stage, it's quatorze juillet tomorrow and they will be hyper motivated.
There's going to be plenty of escapes, other names to watch are guys like Bettini, Etxebarria, Pozzato, Boogerd, ...

Behind those battling for the stage win I think the favorites will just remain grouped, I don't think anyone will seriously try an attack (maybe Mayo or Sevilla but they won't let those guys go) and it will end in a status quo for the leaders.
Good thing the entire stage is broadcast tomorrow, it will be interesting for sure.

It was Mikel Pradera. Accidents happen and this was an unfortunate one, luckily enough Kurt Asle is a very solid guy and he should be OK.


Mikel Pradera: Hope you`ve learned your lesson! Never ride straight into such an obsticle again! :shakehead

Well..this was very unfortunate for Kurt-Asle. In an interview yesterday he mentioned tomorrow`s stage as a great opportunity for him to get away in a break. His first week was also unlucky due to crashes, but let`s hope he recovers fine. Its pretty hard to stay clear of stunts like the one Pradera pulled today...Without doubt Kurt is the most unlucky rider of the Tour so far...

Well Virenque is taking the polka dots and by the looks of things the stage as well.

Any predictions for tomorrow? I'm going to bet that Richard Virenque goes for a long break to collect KOM points...

:bow:

Great win by Virenque :bow: :thumbu:

Anyone know the name of the monkey that went right into the traffic obsticle, did a front flip, and took down Arvesen today? Who does that anyways? What a stupid ****er!

Thank you Belgium and Boonen. You just costed Thor another victory! :shakehead

Ok Pradera..no hard feelings. Saw an interview with Mikel and he seemed like a classy person. Went straight up to Kurt-Asle before todays start, shook his hand and exused himself. Good move!

I haven't been able to listen to OLN's live coverage over the internet the past few days because of some sort of hitch with the connection at the source. However, I'm listening to today's stage now (which has already been archived) and it makes me wonder how I'd feel about internet connections were I a play-by-play announcer, given the continuous feed, even during commerical breaks. About five minutes or so into the broadcast, Phil is trying to record a small bit before the action on the television broadcast was sent down to the starting gate. He's not having much luck due to some technical difficulties, and he's already let loose a four-letter word or two.

It's rather entertaining stuff.

Richard really wanted it today. Five minutes? I'd say that's one of the more impressive performances of this year's Tour so far, save maybe the Herculean effort of Phonak in the team time trial.

Edit: Here I am, allegedly a grown adult, thrilled to death over a few naughty words.

I just got back from my trip from Italy and Germany and was really impressed with the coverage over there. As I was leaving Frankfurt this morning at 10 AM local time one of the TV stations that was being show in the terminal had already started it's pre-race coverage. I'm used to just having OLN or even in Italy they just showed the race, so that was pretty cool, even thought I had no clue what they were talking about... ;)

Stanley, do these guys broadcast a radio feed for the entire duration of the stage or do they have music breaks and commercial breaks in between?

I think it would be very hard to fill up all the space with only a voice. TV commentators already have a hard time during the marathon broadcasts.

I just got back from my trip from Italy and Germany and was really impressed with the coverage over there. As I was leaving Frankfurt this morning at 10 AM local time one of the TV stations that was being show in the terminal had already started it's pre-race coverage. I'm used to just having OLN or even in Italy they just showed the race, so that was pretty cool, even thought I had no clue what they were talking about... ;)

Part of that has to do with the fact that the entire Eurovision had the stage goign live for the entire duration, from 10.45 to 17.00.

Note that the Germans are partly fakers: in 1996 there were about 6 German Journalists credited to the Tour, right now there are about 80, just because of the Ullrich hype (they don't even really care about a great Champion like Zabel).
But it's good for the sport that more countries take interest, that will lead to better quality cyclists...

Note that the Germans are partly fakers: in 1996 there were about 6 German Journalists credited to the Tour, right now there are about 80, just because of the Ullrich hype (they don't even really care about a great Champion like Zabel).


it started with ullrich's 2nd place in 96, but zabel was hyped a lot the last years. this year however they tend to forget him, because he has no real chance to win a stage. they even talk more about hondo.
i follow the TDF since 90 or so and i really think that the ullrich/zabel destroyed cycling in germany. it's now trendy and so-called experts talk BS over and over again. i rather watch eurosport than german channels.
what bothers me a lot is that a good cyclist like grischa niermann is totally ignored just because he's not cycling for t-mobile or gerolsteiner.

[/QUOTE]
But it's good for the sport that more countries take interest, that will lead to better quality cyclists...[/QUOTE]

at least the cyclists become more international which is fun. but where are the cyclists from belgium and netherlands? looks like there's no youth. boonen is the only one from belgium i know who's under 26. and the popular drivers from the netherlands are older as well like boogerd and dekker.

at least the cyclists become more international which is fun. but where are the cyclists from belgium and netherlands? looks like there's no youth. boonen is the only one from belgium i know who's under 26. and the popular drivers from the netherlands are older as well like boogerd and dekker.

We've got a few good ones coming up, Boonen is obviously the most famous one at the moment, only 23 and already winner of three (semi) classics this year, it won't be for too long before he'll get his hands on a Paris Roubaix or a Tour of Flandres

We've also got Jurgen Van Goolen (Quickstep- Davitamon) more a guy for the Ardennes classics), Kevin De Weert ( Rabobank- had trouble adjusting to the pro life), Stijn Devolder (US Postal, he'll be a good one for the classics), Jurgen Vanden Broeck (Time trail specialist, classics guy - USP) and a few more.

Another very good one is Philliphe Gilbert, only 21 years of age but very impressive results thus far and one of the three best 21 year olds in the current UCI rankings (he rides for Francaise des Jeux)

We haven't got many guys for the Tours coming up though but right now there's apparently one junior who's really good at climbing the mountains (I believe his last name is Jacobs, not sure) so it's not all lost.



BTW, saw some interesting footage by the Flemish TV yesterday with a camera they had on the side of the road, not sure if anyone else caught it, but Tyler Hamilton couldn't keep up the pace of Ullrich and Armstrong in the climb of that biggest mountain of yesterday. I must say I was very surprised at that but hopefully it was his only bad day, we need Tyler to provide the spectacle in the moutains!!

And we have nothing.. :)

Well, there's some potential but still very raw. It's too early to tell if they are gonna make it or not.



BTW, saw some interesting footage by the Flemish TV yesterday with a camera they had on the side of the road, not sure if anyone else caught it, but Tyler Hamilton couldn't keep up the pace of Ullrich and Armstrong in the climb of that biggest mountain of yesterday. I must say I was very surprised at that but hopefully it was his only bad day, we need Tyler to provide the spectacle in the moutains!!

I didn't see it (for obvious reasons) but Hamilton has several tiny injuries/bruises, so he's very fragile right now and his dog has died.

Super-Thor is getting sick. Its really bad. He may not continue... :cry:

Once again the OLN audio coverage is fried, so I'm stuck just following little newsflashes on the OLN website. :banghead: :banghead:

:lol :lol

15 H 29 - Peloton Held Up By Six Cows...
The peloton had to ease off the pace of its chase because six cows were in the middle of the road.

:lol :lol

15 H 29 - Peloton Held Up By Six Cows...
The peloton had to ease off the pace of its chase because six cows were in the middle of the road.
That was a very funny picture... :joker:

Hehe, reminds me of Erik Zabel being overrun by two ponys in the Omloop het Volk a few years ago :joker:

We haven't got many guys for the Tours coming up though but right now there's apparently one junior who's really good at climbing the mountains (I believe his last name is Jacobs, not sure) so it's not all lost.


so we can expect a new museeuw for the classics but still no belge for the tours? that's disappointing. i hope this jacobs dude is developing into a tour-driver. would be very nice. :)

Tugboat died?!?!?! Poor Tyler!

Tugboat died?!?!?! Poor Tyler!

Yup it was a big article in the newspaper today, Tyler really loved that dog and it must be hard on him mentally. But still that's no excuse for not being able to follow a pretty big pack on that climb yesterday :teach:


Enjoy the mountain stages everyone! I won't be able to comment on the board due to me being in France. I'm just hoping for a tight battle like we had last year. And secretly I'm hoping for Ullrich to take it all, but we'll see how that pans out (especially minus Kessler).

Tomorrow there is two 1st category climbs at the end. I except there will be breakaway early, this time peloton maybe not very interested to catch them unless there is "dangerous" riders for the GC.

I think Euskaltel riders try hard to win tomorrow, as the route is near Spain now.

Super-Thor is getting sick. Its really bad. He may not continue... :cry:

Sick, but not out! What an incredible finish?!?! :bow:

Poor Magnus Backsted!

The Belgian TV interviewed him as he got in the car of his team in tears, he's a great guy and a great cyclist and I really like him (he's got this nice Dutch accent) He was in totally dissapionted and complained about a sore back. Horrible images that make me think of La Plagne '95.

I don't give any nickel for him tomorrow. That guy is built for Paris-Roubaix, not the Tourmalet.

Brilliant stage today. Armstong blew apart his rivals, including Ullrich, Hamilton, Leiphimer, Mayo and others. The only man able to stay with him was Basso who beat LAnce for the stage win.

Voeckler retains the yellow jersey though, brilliant stuff from Virenque helping him up La Mongie.

nice stage and somehow i get the feeling that armstrong could be in trouble, because CSC can attack with two riders (basso, sastre) and t-mobile with (kloeden, ullrich). ullrich was bad today, but armstrong can't ignore ullrich if he would attack. kloeden is a nice guy for time trial and should be #1 for t-mobile now, but somehow i doubt it. CSC is strong, basso looked fresh and sastre climbed well, too.
i don't know why hamilton is that bad, but other phonak riders looked good. maybe they will change their tactics now.

1. Lance Armstrong (US Postal)
2. Ivan Basso (CSC) + 0:00
3. Georg Totschnig (Gerolsteiner) + 1:05
4. Andres Klöden (T-Mobile) + 1:27
5. Francisco Macebo (Illes Baleares) + 1:27
6. Jan Ullrich (T-Mobile) + 2:42
7. Jose Azevedo (US Postal) + 2:55

Great Performance from Thomas Voeckler... Tomorrow he will be wear the yellow jersey, again!

In two days Lance has shaved 9 minutes and 13 seconds off his deficit...he WILL be wearing Yellow either by the end of tomorrow or definitely by Tuesday night.

Hamilton dropped out with a sore back. :(

Time to start cheering on Armstrong, I guess.

Basso isn't a strong TTist compared to Lance, so I think Basso will need the ride of his life to catch Lance.

The hammer fell today and there's only one person left on the Tour that can compete with Armstrong. Basso looks like he could be the next star of the TDF in future years, if his time trialing improves. But this competition is basically over.

In two days Lance has shaved 9 minutes and 13 seconds off his deficit...he WILL be wearing Yellow either by the end of tomorrow or definitely by Tuesday night.
Of course Lance will wear yellow in the next days (latest Tuesday or Wednesday), but I have big respect about this young french guy! Nobody gave him a chance that he will defend the yellow jersey longer than a few days and never that he drive in yellow into the Alpes...

Voeckler is the unquestioned star of this Tour and a real "people's champion". He's ridden on pure guts for the last two days, and has demonstrated something that guys like Hamilton, Heras, Mayo, and company didn't have: the heart of a true champion.

Voeckler is the unquestioned star of this Tour and a real "people's champion". He's ridden on pure guts for the last two days, and has demonstrated something that guys like Hamilton, Heras, Mayo, and company didn't have: the heart of a true champion.

Don't know how you can say that about Hamilton after what he did last year. Tyler had to be really hurting to drop out.

Don't know how you can say that about Hamilton after what he did last year. Tyler had to be really hurting to drop out.

agreed...Tyler winning stage 16 last year with a broken collarbone is pretty darn impressive...how dare anyone question his heart, his back has to be really bad for him to drop out.

BTW, when that guy was running alongside Lance and Basso patting them on the back, did anyone notice some chubby naked guy running along on the opposite side? The announcers seemed preoccupied with the fan making contact that they missed it.

I'm not sure which guy Lance was more eager to get away from.

BTW, when that guy was running alongside Lance and Basso patting them on the back, did anyone notice some chubby naked guy running along on the opposite side? The announcers seemed preoccupied with the fan making contact that they missed it.

I'm not sure which guy Lance was more eager to get away from.

Spaniards = psychos...jesus those fans blocking the road need to be beaten within an inch of their lives :shakehead ... if Lance doesn't lose Basso like he lost Ullrich in the near future, it may be hard for him to win his 6th straight Tour

Spaniards = psychos...jesus those fans blocking the road need to be beaten within an inch of their lives :shakehead ...

They need to mount cowcatchers on the fronts of the bikes. Plow those morons aside like snowdrifts.

Voeckler is the unquestioned star of this Tour and a real "people's champion". He's ridden on pure guts for the last two days, and has demonstrated something that guys like Hamilton, Heras, Mayo, and company didn't have: the heart of a true champion.
I don't think it's necessary to degrade certain individuals to raise the status of another. I really have thoroughly enjoyed watching Voeckler, but I don't think I'm ready to draw a conclusion that those who haven't had things go their way are "gutless." What Voeckler has had since Belgium is nothing to lose in this race. Hamilton, Heras, Mayo, Ullrich, et. al were never going to grab yellow or have any concern for going for it at all on the flat stages knowing that they were going to earn their keep in the mountains. Voeckler has had the advantage of being relatively anonymous and not considered a threat to the contenders - not to mention rather fortunate that he survived unscathed from a very messy first week - and was able to build a fairly big advantage before they got to the Pyrannes.

I guarantee that a continued strong performance from Voeckler in this year's Tour will mean that contenders in future tours won't let him go like they did this year.

Voeckler has been a nice story in this year's Tour. Nothing less, nothing more. Though I thought that other guy was on his last leg last year, he's still clearly got something left (and like Voeckler, survived fairly well save one fall).

Spaniards = psychos...jesus those fans blocking the road need to be beaten within an inch of their lives :shakehead ... if Lance doesn't lose Basso like he lost Ullrich in the near future, it may be hard for him to win his 6th straight Tour

Looked like some of the dumbasses were American fans, too (like the viking helmet guy). I guess when you have over a hundred thousand people packed onto a narrow road, camped out all night and all day drinking, and waiting around for hours anticipating seeing their heroes for mere seconds, some of them will be overly jacked up when the race finally gets there.

Some of those Spanish fans were flipping Armstrong off, and I was pretty sure I saw a water bottle hurled at him during the chaos. But if history is any indication, Lance usually gets fired up by anti-fans anyway. Some of his best moments over the years have come with French fans calling him a cheat all the way up a mountain.

As for Basso, he's a really good rider, but he's not that great in time trials is he? He cannot afford to lose significant time on any remaining stage if he has any illusions of making up for it elsewhere, especially with Lance and his team in top form ... heck, Armstrong/USPS haven't even really had to attack yet in the Tour, and they've already wiped out most of the major GC contenders!

I don't think it's necessary to degrade certain individuals to raise the status of another. I really have thoroughly enjoyed watching Voeckler, but I don't think I'm ready to draw a conclusion that those who haven't had things go their way are "gutless." What Voeckler has had since Belgium is nothing to lose in this race. Hamilton, Heras, Mayo, Ullrich, et. al were never going to grab yellow or have any concern for going for it at all on the flat stages knowing that they were going to earn their keep in the mountains. Voeckler has had the advantage of being relatively anonymous and not considered a threat to the contenders - not to mention rather fortunate that he survived unscathed from a very messy first week - and was able to build a fairly big advantage before they got to the Pyrannes.

I guarantee that a continued strong performance from Voeckler in this year's Tour will mean that contenders in future tours won't let him go like they did this year.

Voeckler has been a nice story in this year's Tour. Nothing less, nothing more. Though I thought that other guy was on his last leg last year, he's still clearly got something left (and like Voeckler, survived fairly well save one fall).

I just think it's amazing that Lance Armstrong managed to destroy practically every major contender and here is Voeckler hanging on and competing on pure guts. When you've got guys like Mayo and Heras - pure climbers who are supposed to excel in the mountains - hanging at the back with the sprinters and (in Mayo's case) having to be pursuaded to not simply give up, while Voeckler is digging deep for every second, you get a real appreciation for what he is doing.

Looked like some of the dumbasses were American fans, too (like the viking helmet guy). I guess when you have over a hundred thousand people packed onto a narrow road, camped out all night and all day drinking, and waiting around for hours anticipating seeing their heroes for mere seconds, some of them will be overly jacked up when the race finally gets there.

Some of those Spanish fans were flipping Armstrong off, and I was pretty sure I saw a water bottle hurled at him during the chaos. But if history is any indication, Lance usually gets fired up by anti-fans anyway. Some of his best moments over the years have come with French fans calling him a cheat all the way up a mountain.

As for Basso, he's a really good rider, but he's not that great in time trials is he? He cannot afford to lose significant time on any remaining stage if he has any illusions of making up for it elsewhere, especially with Lance and his team in top form ... heck, Armstrong/USPS haven't even really had to attack yet in the Tour, and they've already wiped out most of the major GC contenders!

Basso will probably get dropped by Armstrong in the time trials and won't win this Tour, but expect him to be a major contender for the future. If he trains to improve his time trialing I can see him giving Armstrong a run for his money next year. He should be able to grab a podium position this year.

I just think it's amazing that Lance Armstrong managed to destroy practically every major contender and here is Voeckler hanging on and competing on pure guts.

Well, let's not overstate the case. Lance pretty much destroyed Voeckler too, taking around 9 minutes from him in just two days. It's just that Voeckler started off these climbs with a big lead because no one really marked him (and these mountains are showing why ... he's not a real threat). If not for that, he'd already be buried along with everyone else. That's not to take anything away from him, because he's shown TREMENDOUS heart, and an amazing ability to make little bursts to keep himself in it whenever needed. But it still wasn't enough to keep him from losing big chunks of time in the Pyrenees.

Heras had a crash, so he kind of had an excuse today. OTOH, despite his heroics in 2002 he wasn't anywhere near Armstrong's best teammate even last year, so maybe people overrated him as a threat anyway. Perhaps he's doing the best he can.

However, I'd have to agree that Mayo is really embarrassing himself in comparison to a guy like Voeckler. The Tour really misses his reckless attacks, and there appears to be no one to pick up the slack among the contenders.

It's really too bad Vino isn't there and in form this year, because not only do I think he could hang with Armstrong and Basso, but he could also launch some attacks.

...In fact there is only one individual time trial...
I think that improves Ivan Basso's chances to fight for a spot on the podium in Paris. Last year he finished seventh but was able to stay with Armstrong and Ulrich on the mountains almost everytime....
:banana:
now i would be really disappointed if Basso will finish any lower than second! :handclap:

note:as for my speaking of only one time trial, obviously i wasn't considering the climbing of Alpe d'Huez, which is something different from a typical time trial and different should be the resut as well..

note:as for my speaking of only one time trial, obviously i wasn't considering the climbing of Alpe d'Huez, which is something different from a typical time trial and different should be the resut as well..

They did all do an ITT on Mount Ventoux just one month ago, when Mayo beat Armstrong by 2 minutes. Both Basso and Voeckler finished almost 7 minutes back of Mayo then.

They did all do an ITT on Mount Ventoux just one month ago, when Mayo beat Armstrong by 2 minutes. Both Basso and Voeckler finished almost 7 minutes back of Mayo then.
That doesn't mean much.
That race didn't count much for Armstrong or Basso. Ivan took that stage and the whole competition just as a training for the Tour..
i'm confortable that at Alpe d'Huez things will go differently and Basso should be able to save his chances there.

Stage 15 isn't likely to affect the general classification very much. Lots of climbs but the climb to the finish is only a short Cat 2. Expect this to be another stage where Richard Virenque goes hunting for points.

There are really three stages left that should have an impact on the GC: The MTT at l'Alpe d'Huez, the ITT, and stage 17 which features the Col de la Madeleine and three Cat 1 climbs.

I just think it's amazing that Lance Armstrong managed to destroy practically every major contender and here is Voeckler hanging on and competing on pure guts. When you've got guys like Mayo and Heras - pure climbers who are supposed to excel in the mountains - hanging at the back with the sprinters and (in Mayo's case) having to be pursuaded to not simply give up, while Voeckler is digging deep for every second, you get a real appreciation for what he is doing.
I couldn't agree with you more, Epsilon, about Voeckler. My point was that I don't think the struggles of Heras, Mayo, and Hamilton can be attributed blindly to "lack of guts." We know Hamilton has a back lower back, but we don't know what's wrong with the other two. If you're injured or can't get into the groove, you're injured and can't get into the groove. I think it's too long of an event to have success with lingering injuries or ailments. I think you agree with that.

I also agree that Armstrong is one heck of a rider and I think he is by far the most prepared for the Tour (most other riders have other goals during the year), but I think it's bigger than that. I'm sure you'd agree that his team has a singleness of purpose: to put Lance in yellow in Paris. We both know you'd never catch Azevedo, Landis, or Hincape flying up the mountain like Kloden did if Armstrong were struggling like Ullrich was. Now I don't think it's fair to criticize Kloden because we don't know what T-Mobile's goals are and we don't know what goes on behind the scenes. However, rare is the time when you find Armstrong out on the road alone, and that's not an accident.

I guess it's just that teams have different goals. That's not good or bad. It's just the way it is.

My observations of two days in the Pyrennes.

Armstrong is good but the resistance completely fails and I really don't get it. Lance doesn't have to do much to win his 6th TDF.

Mayo was superb just a couple of weeks before the Tour started and look at him now.

Heras ?? You'll see he's good in the Tour of Spain again but who cares. Heras in form could have been a real thread for Lance Armstrong.

Hamilton has back problems and his dog has died. I think he was mentally broken.

Ullrich, pff. Jan should know by now that the Tour preparation starts in November and December and not in April.

Ivan Basso is a pleasant surprise but Armstrong will destroy him in the time-trials. Besides, as far as I can see he's happy with a spot on the podium.

Andreas Klöden..too bad he's just not good enough to follow Armstrong in the mountains. He's pretty good with time-trials and could have been a danger for Armstrong.

There are really three stages left that should have an impact on the GC: The MTT at l'Alpe d'Huez, the ITT, and stage 17 which features the Col de la Madeleine and three Cat 1 climbs.
That makes for 3 serious mountains stages in the whole tour; i think that shows how weak this tour is in terms of climbings... :dunno:

if i think of the old days when Hinault dominated, i regret those old ways..
then 10/15 years ago the mountains were already halvened with the first 10 days completely plain :cry:
and this year are even divided by three... :banghead:

That makes for 3 serious mountains stages in the whole tour; i think that shows how weak this tour is in terms of climbings... :dunno:Well isn't the whole point to give everybody a chance to beat Lance?

Well isn't the whole point to give everybody a chance to beat Lance?
As it was some years ago to give everybody a chance to beat Indurain putting there something like 150kms of time trial while reducing climbings??

Mayo was superb just a couple of weeks before the Tour started and look at him now.
I'm shocked most about this. I really thought he was going to take it this year.

As it was some years ago to give everybody a chance to beat Indurain putting there something like 150kms of time trial while reducing climbings??

The problem with changing things up to give others a chance against Armstrong is that he's good at both time trials AND climbing. He wins both kinds of stages. And when you think about it, it doesn't matter in which direction the organizers wanted to tilt things, because if guys like Mayo and such were going to tank this badly, then it wouldn't have made a difference how they set it up.

Still, if they hadn't reduced the amount of time you could lose in the TTT, not even Basso would be all that close right now. So I guess you'd have to say the Tour organizers succeeded in salvaging some suspense out of a Tour that's had a lot of disappointing performances from GC contenders.

Mayo's performance is dissapointing to say the least. I felt so sorry for the orange clad throngs staring down the road in disbelief as Basso and Armstrong passed without Mayo.

Having said that, I think the story of the tour is Voeckler.

Mayo's performance is dissapointing to say the least. I felt so sorry for the orange clad throngs staring down the road in disbelief as Basso and Armstrong passed without Mayo.

I wonder if they had any idea how far back he was. I can just imagine:

After Basso/Armstrong go by: "I'm sure he's coming up around the bend any second now."

3 minutes: "Probably had a mechanical problem, we'll see him flying by soon."

10 minutes: "We gotta encourage him when he comes by! It's not over yet!"

30 minutes: "Where is that @#*%!?!?! Hell, WE got up here faster than this!!!"

I wonder if they had any idea how far back he was. I can just imagine:

After Basso/Armstrong go by: "I'm sure he's coming up around the bend any second now."

3 minutes: "Probably had a mechanical problem, we'll see him flying by soon."

10 minutes: "We gotta encourage him when he comes by! It's not over yet!"

30 minutes: "Where is that @#*%!?!?! Hell, WE got up here faster than this!!!"

:lol

Not surprising information: Mayo did not start today. After losing half an hour in stage 13 and Pyrenees behind it was sensible decision.

Jakob Piil is another non-starter of today.

15th stage:

1. Lance Armstrong (US Postal)
2. Ivan Basso (Team CSC) + 0:00
3. Jan Ullrich (T-Mobile) + 0:03
4. Andreas Klöden (T-Mobile) + 0:06
5. Levi Leipheimer (Rabobank) + 0:13
6. Richard Virenque (Quick Step) + 0:48
7. Mickael Rasmussen (Rabobank) + 0:49
8. José Azevedo (US Postal) + 0:53


Lance will wear the yellow jersey tomorrow to Aple d´Huez!

That stage was one of the most exciting so far, which is a nice surprise because I figured it was just going to be a ho-hum effort from the top guys and another uncontested Virenque breakaway.

Basso and Armstrong to the line again.

Lance wins again, what's new.

The problem with changing things up to give others a chance against Armstrong is that he's good at both time trials AND climbing. He wins both kinds of stages. And when you think about it, it doesn't matter in which direction the organizers wanted to tilt things, because if guys like Mayo and such were going to tank this badly, then it wouldn't have made a difference how they set it up.
Still, if they hadn't reduced the amount of time you could lose in the TTT, not even Basso would be all that close right now. So I guess you'd have to say the Tour organizers succeeded in salvaging some suspense out of a Tour that's had a lot of disappointing performances from GC contenders.
So you would like a Tour made of 20 completely plain stages where the competition is really close and even Petacchi can win the Tour because there is no place to make the difference??

You're mixing two different arguments.
Tour's path is not good or bad because of how much close the competition results to be. That's depend much more on how the riders do.
A good path is a balanced one, but that should not be achieved just by reducing both time trials and mountain stages, leaving us with 14 plain stages.
Unfortunately this year only Basso is doing well out of Armstrong opponents.
So what? If Armstrong is hands down the best, Tour should let him to prove it and to win hands down the tour.
Fact is Tour's path sucks big time by long time by now (15 years?).
They choose the stages by money criteria instead of technical criteria.
Every year they start with 10 or more consecutive plain stages, very exciting!!!
The positive thing of this year is that they put a reductive factor to the team time trial results, that's an unfair stage which is there just for sponsors reasons..
but along that, they have furtherly reduced mountains stages and reduced hard climbings especially towards the ends fo stages. :dunno:

So you would like a Tour made of 20 completely plain stages where the competition is really close and even Petacchi can win the Tour because there is no place to make the difference??

Where did I say any of that? All I'm saying is that when rivals like Mayo lose 30+ minutes on mountain stages where they're supposed to be great, then it doesn't really matter how you set it up. If they'd done all mountain stages to try and get Mayo to win, it still wouldn't have worked this year.


You're mixing two different arguments.
Tour's path is not good or bad because of how much close the competition results to be. That's depend much more on how the riders do.

The Tour organizers do care how close the competition is.

Most years, I think it's set up so that a great climber vs. a great time trialer would both have a real chance of winning (so long as they're decent at the other). To me, that's a good course. Now, if someone comes along and crushes everyone else anyway, so be it.

A good path is a balanced one, but that should not be achieved just by reducing both time trials and mountain stages, leaving us with 14 plain stages.


Since no one is suggesting 14 plain stages, and since the organizers would never choose such a course anyway, that's a completely moot point.

Question to you guys...Do you agree with Mr. Liggett that Lance should have gained a second on Basso at the line for margin of victory?

My respect for Bjarne Riis is gone.

Ullrich has escaped and Riis recalls Voigt to help US Postal, to secure the 2nd spot of Basso. What a joke. Armstrong sits in his seat to his 6th straight Tour victory. I can't remember he has ever been alone, without teammates, before the final climb. Armstrong and his team can hardly be beaten and even other teams are going to help him now, unbelievable. I thought Riis had a winners mentality, never have I been so wrong, a pact between US Postal and CSC. Why don't they fly to Paris right now and give him his 6th Tour.

Question to you guys...Do you agree with Mr. Liggett that Lance should have gained a second on Basso at the line for margin of victory?

Hell No. Thank God Basso didn't win !

My respect for Bjarne Riis is gone.

Ullrich is escaped and Riis recalls Voigt to help US Postal, to secure the 2nd spot of Basso. What a joke. Armstrong sits in his seat to his 6th straight Tour victory. I can't remember he has ever been alone, without teammates, before the final climb. Armstrong and his team can hardly be beaten and even other teams are going to help him now, unbelievable. I thought Riis had a winners mentality, never have I been so wrong, a pact between US Postal and CSC. Why don't they fly to Paris right now and give him his 6th Tour.

Riis cares more about the success of TEAM CSC than any one of his individual riders. The entire way the team is organized is totally opposite from USPS which is basically just a leadout line for Armstrong. He didn't want T-Mobile taking any more time away from CSC, and wanted his team back in first place. He's also grounded enough to know that the chances of Basso beating Armstrong are slim to none, and so getting 2nd in the GC and 1st in the team competition is probably better than sacrificing his team on a wing and a prayer.

Riis cares more about the success of TEAM CSC than any one of his individual riders. The entire way the team is organized is totally opposite from USPS which is basically just a leadout line for Armstrong. He didn't want T-Mobile taking any more time away from CSC, and wanted his team back in first place. He's also grounded enough to know that the chances of Basso beating Armstrong are slim to none, and so getting 2nd in the GC and 1st in the team competition is probably better than sacrificing his team on a wing and a prayer.

Basso could benefit from Ullrich's escape, Armstrong's team had to work and needed help. Saying that
the chances of Basso beating Armstrong are slim to none is way too early, that's no topsport. The Alps still have to come and regarding Basso, nothing is decided yet. Have they already thrown in the towel ? What I said, I thought Riis had a winners mentality. It's fine if he thinks that Basso can't win from Armstrong but don't be surprised to hear any criticism with that kind of attitude.

The Tour is not only about the GC. Just because Postal has a singleminded purpose, doesn't mean everyone else has that same mentality. CSC's margin in the team competition is only 55 seconds, and they're not wrong for caring about that.

Besides, if CSC lets Ullrich get close enough to Armstrong to be a threat, not only is Basso in a position where he would also be threatened and in danger of losing 2nd, Kloden is close enough that Basso could be knocked off the podium altogether.

Sure, if the only goal in the Tour is to prevent Armstrong from winning, then all the teams should sacrifice their own goals even when they might share a common interest in catching someone. But why would anyone ever do that? It would be like Postal one day deciding not to help out Lance on a stage, because it might help some other team win the team competition.

The Tour is not only about the GC. Just because Postal has a singleminded purpose, doesn't mean everyone else has that same mentality. CSC's margin in the team competition is only 55 seconds, and they're not wrong for caring about that.

Besides, if CSC lets Ullrich get close enough to Armstrong to be a threat, not only is Basso in a position where he would also be threatened and in danger of losing 2nd, Kloden is close enough that Basso could be knocked off the podium altogether.

Sure, if the only goal in the Tour is to prevent Armstrong from winning, then all the teams should sacrifice their own goals even when they might share a common interest in catching someone. But why would anyone ever do that? It would be like Postal one day deciding not to help out Lance on a stage, because it might help some other team win the team competition.

Seriously, with the exception of the Spanish teams, nobody gives a damn about the team competition.

It's not about "preventing Armstrong from winning" but to push your limits to improve. The GC is definitely the only thing that counts. The worst has yet to come and everything is still possible for Basso but NO, they already have thrown in the towel and are happy with a podium spot, cowardly. The past has learned us a few times that Armstrong gets weaker towards the end. The stage of today wouldn't have been critical for Basso's possible podium spot when Ullrich would have won one or two minutes. Riis theory is perhaps understandable but that doesn't mean we have to agree with it.

There are pretty much three stages left where big moves can be made:

1. Stage 15 l"Alpe d'Huez TT: Riis pretty much admitted that Basso can't beat Armstrong here short of a miracle and he would be pleased if he simply limited the damage.

2. Stage 17: La Col de la Madeleine and 3 Cat 1 climbs. Note that this stage does not end with a climb and so the damage will be a lot less than what could be done if say, la Madeleine was the finish line.

3. Stage 19 TT: Again Basso is at a disadvantage.

Seriously, with the exception of the Spanish teams, nobody gives a damn about the team competition.

Well, there is some money involved. Not a lot, but some.

It's not about "preventing Armstrong from winning" but to push your limits to improve. The GC is definitely the only thing that counts.

Tell that to the teams going after the green or polka dot jerseys. The GC may be the most important of the competitions, but it's not the only thing that counts.

The worst has yet to come and everything is still possible for Basso but NO, they already have thrown in the towel and are happy with a podium spot, cowardly.

They could easily lose any podium spot, nevermind 2nd, if they let Ullrich back in it. And if that happened, Riis would REALLY get laid into by armchair critics. It's easy to tell people to take the risk when you're not the one with something to lose. The way things are now, CSC is still leading the team competition, and Basso still is in striking distance. The other way risks potentially losing the team lead and makes a shot at the podium less likely.

Super-Thor did pretty good today. "Stole" 4 points on the green jersey. Too bad he couldn`t catch O`Grady, but he`ll take it. Only 12 points up now..We are in for a very exciting finish :handclap:

Hey, Garry! Wanna do what we`ve planned? When`s the next flight to Grenoble? I even found a number you might try calling: + 33 4 76 65 48 48

I wonder how many sprinters are going to get dropped tomorrow because they can't finish within the required time limit.

Tell that to the teams going after the green or polka dot jerseys. The GC may be the most important of the competitions, but it's not the only thing that counts.

Apart from Richard Virenque, who actually goes after the polka dot jersey ? Nobody.
He has won it six times and this will likely be his 7th. The same can be said of the green jersey, just three people are battling for the green jersey. In the past there was way more competition.

I wonder how many sprinters are going to get dropped tomorrow because they can't finish within the required time limit.

Hard to predict, but i do hope that nobody gets eliminated because of the time limit.
The sprinters who got that far earn my full respect, cause they are not arguing about their back, about bad weather, about illness or something - they just fight to get to the finish.

I don´t like the guys who´re going for a stage and then drop out of the race because they don´t want to get past the Alpes or something like that.
Cipollini makes me sick as the estonian guy did (dropped 11 times out of the race and he just did start 11 times...).

Kiirsipu is a possy, no news there.. Cippo and Petacchi aren`t strong enough either. Just look at a guy like Super-Thor. There`s a fighter for you! :handclap:

I wonder how many sprinters are going to get dropped tomorrow because they can't finish within the required time limit.

I think we don't have to worry. The winner will finish around the 35 minutes. I've climbed l'Alpe d'Huez a couple of times and my fastest time was around the 55 minutes, so the weak ones won't lose more than 11-12 minutes (which is allowed, I guess).

I think we don't have to worry. The winner will finish around the 35 minutes. I've climbed l'Alpe d'Huez a couple of times and my fastest time was around the 55 minutes, so the weak ones won't lose more tha 11-12 minutes (which is allowed, I guess).

55 mins? Did you borrow your sisters bike?! :p:

Kiirsipu is a possy, no news there.. Cippo and Petacchi aren`t strong enough either. Just look at a guy like Super-Thor. There`s a fighter for you! :handclap:

I do like Hurshovd, but i do like Arvesen way more ! Great team guy !

I´m very suprised by the danish man Rasmussen. He´s been really good at mountainbiking (won the WC title 5 years ago), but he came out of nowhere to have some good runs at the tour - i´m very impressed.

Apart from Richard Virenque, who actually goes after the polka dot jersey ? Nobody.
He has won it six times and this will likely be his 7th. The same can be said of the green jersey, just three people are battling for the green jersey. In the past there was way more competition.

Still, there are teams who specifically help their riders try and win the green. I don't think they'd sacrifice something like that just because they might be helping someone else win the GC. Every team has their own set of goals.

Really, I don't understand the criticism of CSC helping reel in Ullrich, since it was in their best interests as well; why make it a 3 or 4 man race for the podium, when you can put yourself in position to be the only one who can take advantage of a possible mistake by Armstrong? Besides, they're not going to blow their wad with two more days in the Alps remaining.

I think their strategy is pretty clear ... they're going to help him hang close to Armstrong, while maintaining his lead over the other riders, and hope for a mistake by Lance. I think it's a perfectly valid strategy, considering that by any objective analysis his chances of beating Armstrong on the remaining stages is not that great.

I do like Hurshovd, but i do like Arvesen way more ! Great team guy !

I´m very suprised by the danish man Rasmussen. He´s been really good at mountainbiking (won the WC title 5 years ago), but he came out of nowhere to have some good runs at the tour - i´m very impressed.

Kurt-Asle have been an absolute warrior. He had so many bruises that he needed help just getting up from bed in the morning... Many riders could learn from what Kurt has done. Remarkable IMO. And as you said..A true team player as well. We are proud of both Super-Thor and Kurt Asle here in Norway :bow:

Really, I don't understand the criticism of CSC helping reel in Ullrich, since it was in their best interests as well; why make it a 3 or 4 man race for the podium, when you can put yourself in position to be the only one who can take advantage of a possible mistake by Armstrong? Besides, they're not going to blow their wad with two more days in the Alps remaining.

I think their strategy is pretty clear ... they're going to help him hang close to Armstrong, while maintaining his lead over the other riders, and hope for a mistake by Lance. I think it's a perfectly valid strategy, considering that by any objective analysis his chances of beating Armstrong on the remaining stages is not that great.

Every strategy is valid but you won't make friends. In cycling you have a couple of unwritten rules. Sure, this time CSC had a reason but don't be surprised when T-Mobile will take revenge and perhaps then CSC have to sit on their own blisters.

Every strategy is valid but you won't make friends. In cycling you have a couple of unwritten rules. Sure, this time CSC had a reason but don't be surprised when T-Mobile will take revenge and perhaps then CSC have to sit on their own blisters.


or perhaps T-Mobile won't do a thing

T-mobile doesn't have a good strategy for years, they need someone who is better than Goodefroot.
They have one of the best sprinters in Zabel. He lost so much speed, that he can't win stages anymore, but he is still close to McEwen for the green jersey.
He is maybe the best sprinter in the mountains, but he never tries to get points for the green jersey like O'Grady and Hushovd did yesterday. The same on flat stages.


In German tv they had some celebrities try today's stage. Most of them weren't exactly fast, but Ole Einar Björndalen (Biathlon) did it in 44 minutes looking a bit like Armstrong ;)

Lance is off, by the end he should have this thing all locked up. /knocks on wood

1. Lance Armstrong (US Postal) 39:41 Min.
2. Jan Ullrich (T-Mobile) + 1:01 Min.
3. Andreas Klöden (T-Mobile) + 1:42 Min.
4. Jose Azevedo (US Postal) + 1:45 Min.
5. Santos Gonzalez (Phonak) + 2:10 Min.
6. Giuseppe Guerini (T-Mobile) + 2:11 Min.
7. Vladimir Karpets (Illes Balears) + 2:14 Min.
8. Ivan Basso (CSC) + 2:22 Min.
9. David Moncoutie (Cofidis) + 2:23 Min.
10. Carlos Sastre (CSC) + 2:27 Min.

A day later, I think it's obvious that Riis made the right call in reeling Ullrich back in, because otherwise Ivan would be hanging on by a very thin string right now. Basso needs to open up some time between him and Ullrich tomorrow, because Jan is more than capable of making up 4-5 minutes on him in the long TT. And if Kloden stays this close heading into the TT, he'll probably pass Basso too.

It's gonna be real close, and the seconds Basso saved yesterday may turn out to be quite significant for his podium chances.

Its pretty much all over but the crying (for the rest of the field). Lance looks like he will go on to win a record 6 TDF in a row. This guy is truly a beast, I am simply amazed everytime I watch this guy ride a bike uphill.

1. Lance Armstrong (USP) 2,802.1km in 67h53'24" (41.265km/h)
2. Ivan Basso (CSC) at 3'48"
3. Andreas Kloden (TMO) at 5'03"
4. Jan Ullrich (TMO) at 7'55"
5. Jose Azevedo (USP) at 9'19"
6. Francisco Mancebo (IBB) at 9'20"
7. Georg Totschnig (GST) at 11'34"
8. Carlos Sastre (CSC) at 13'52"
9. Pietro Caucchioli (ALB) 14'08"
10. Levi Leipheimer (RAB) at 15'04"

Im watching the TT on alpe d'huez and they just said that there are 900,000 people on the 15 km stretch of the course. All I can say is WOW, that is a lot of people. I cant say Ive ever seen attendance numbers for that for any sport. Granted most places cant hold 900,000 people.

Im watching the TT on alpe d'huez and they just said that there are 900,000 people on the 15 km stretch of the course. All I can say is WOW, that is a lot of people. I cant say Ive ever seen attendance numbers for that for any sport. Granted most places cant hold 900,000 people.

you should see the half mile track at Bristol Motor Speedway. nothing like cramming 166,000 people into a half mile race track

Some props and RIP for Marco Pantani -- Lance came 1 second away from beating Marco's record for this climb. The difference is that Pantani did it as part of a 203-km stage instead of just by itself, which seems pretty amazing on the face of it.

Anyway, another great ride by Armstrong, now he can sit back and let his team carry him until the next TT. He really is a wonder the way he brings it all together -- strength, quickness, tactics, planning.

Like I said, Basso's efforts are likely not enough to make the podium in Paris, so now he has nothing. To play it safe never pays off. It's too bad for him but I won't lose any sleep over it.

Like I said, Basso's efforts are likely not enough to make the podium in Paris, so now he has nothing. To play it safe never pays off. It's too bad for him but I won't lose any sleep over it.

Frolov, your own time of 55 minutes on that climb compares very admirably against the riders in today's stage. My compliments to you, sir!

Frolov, your own time of 55 minutes on that climb compares very admirably against the riders in today's stage. My compliments to you, sir!

Thanks WT. I believe Davide Bramati had a time of 54+ minutes and some other riders close to that as well. Two things though. 1) The riders had a little preamble before the climb started, which took about 1.30 minutes and 2) 54 minutes is a very poor effort if you're a professional.

anyone see the message on the road?..."Rip their balls off Lance"...brilliant!

anyone see the message on the road?..."Rip their balls off Lance"...brilliant!

Yes I just seen that....it was classic....because he truly did rip their balls off!! GO LANCE!

Frolov, your own time of 55 minutes on that climb compares very admirably against the riders in today's stage. My compliments to you, sir!

really? Wow..impressive.

Like I said, Basso's efforts are likely not enough to make the podium in Paris, so now he has nothing. To play it safe never pays off. It's too bad for him but I won't lose any sleep over it.

But in hindsight, it's obvious he can't beat Armstrong anyway, because it's around 3.5 minutes now and it'll be a lot more after the last time trial. If he ends up hanging onto a podium spot over Ullrich by a few seconds (which I still think is possible), then Riis absolutely made the right decision. Because the way it's shaping up it very well may come down to mere seconds between him and Jan. I'd say 50-50 that he can hang on in the time trial if he doesn't lose any significant time to Ullrich tomorrow.

Honestly, I think Basso's chances at a podium spot are better now than they would have been had he done things differently on Tuesday. While he might have been able to get a little closer to Lance, he might also have ended up with a lot less of a lead on Ullrich, and in a 4-way battle with a long time trial remaining, Basso would be dead.

Besides, I find Basso's explanation after Tuesday (that they wanted to stay close and then fight for a stage win at the end) to be quite reasonable, and much better than sitting around hoping Postal would wear themselves out chasing Ullrich, who to be honest wasn't going to be a huge threat to Armstrong at 6 minutes down.

anyone see the message on the road?..."Rip their balls off Lance"...brilliant!

I thought the "EPO Lance" graffiti was pretty funny, especially when Armstrong passed right over it and the camera had it right in the center of the screen.

really? Wow..impressive.

The guy's in the same range as some of the Tour riders - that's a good time. Yeah, I'm impressed.

I thought the "EPO Lance" graffiti was pretty funny, especially when Armstrong passed right over it and the camera had it right in the center of the screen.

Pharmstrong was another 'funny' message.


The guy's in the same range as some of the Tour riders - that's a good time. Yeah, I'm impressed.

In those days I had the illusion to become professional and competed in smaller races with people who are professional now like Addy Engels (24th in the Tour d'Italy of 2002), Bram Schmitz (rides for T-Mobile this season), Gerben Lowik (Rabobank next season). However, I simply didn't have enough talent. :)

I wish I lived a little bit closer to this climb than about half way around the world. Just would like to see how long it would take me to climb alpe d'huez. I bet I could do it in just around an hour. Though I race mountian bikes im sure its a little different on the road but if you can climb a mountian on a trail, then you should be able to climb a mountain on a road. Same idea.

I wish I lived a little bit closer to this climb than about half way around the world. Just would like to see how long it would take me to climb alpe d'huez. I bet I could do it in just around an hour. Though I race mountian bikes im sure its a little different on the road but if you can climb a mountian on a trail, then you should be able to climb a mountain on a road. Same idea.

Mickael Rasmussen is a former mountainbiker and look how he rides this Tour, amazingly. Professional mountainbikers lack speed on the road but most of them can hold their own in the mountains. People who are well-trained could do it in one hour. However, it's very difficult to push your limits the next time and to do it in 59 minutes. It's just one minute but it's damn hard. :)

Mickael Rasmussen is a former mountainbiker and look how he rides this Tour, amazingly. Professional mountainbikers lack speed on the road but most of them can hold their own in the mountains. People who are well-trained could do it in one hour. However, it's very difficult to push your limits the next time and to do it in 59 minutes. It's just one minute but it's damn hard. :)

I do not understand why many of the roadies still arent following Lances technique of using such a high cadence. When I look at Rasmussen pedal he appears to be pedalling at a higher cadence than most, which didnt suprise me as he impressed me with his climbing/breaking away. And clearly I think part of the reason he pedals at such a high cadence(besides Lance doing it) is becuase of his Mtn bike background. In general I would say that mtn bikers pedal at high cadence in order to get up the shorter, yet steepers climsb because it gives them the extra acceleration and power boost to get up the hill. Incidentally this technique translates well on the road as well, as Lance shows higher cadence will get you up the moutain faster, you just need enough energy to do it for a long period of time.

Mickael Rasmussen is a former mountainbiker and look how he rides this Tour, amazingly. Professional mountainbikers lack speed on the road but most of them can hold their own in the mountains. People who are well-trained could do it in one hour. However, it's very difficult to push your limits the next time and to do it in 59 minutes. It's just one minute but it's damn hard. :)

They said on today's broadcast that during training Lance went up the course 4 times in one day! And to think, he probably went up faster the 4th time than most people are capable of when fresh.

Roberto Heras is out! He didn´t start the 17th stage today morning ...

anyone see the message on the road?..."Rip their balls off Lance"...brilliant!

:lol: that was great!


look at the message under lance

(ami go home)

Result 17th stage:

1. Lance Armstrong (US Postal)
2. Andreas Klöden (T-Mobile) + 0:00
3. Jan Ullrich (T-Mobile) + 0:01
4. Ivan Basso (Team CSC) + 0:01
5. Floyd Landis (US Postal) + 0:13
6. Axel Merckx (Lotto - Domo) + 1:01
7. Levi Leipheimer (Rabobank) + 1:01
8. Carlos Sastre (Team CSC) + 1:02
9. Mickael Rasmussen (Rabobank) + 1:02
10. Georg Totschnig (Gerolsteiner) + 1:02

Wow what a savage finish by Armstrong today. This is actually setting up to be arguably his best-ever performance in the Tour de France. He's already won 4 stages, including 3 in a row, could win the ITT, and his team won the TTT.

ami go home, i have no longer respect for you and your team. :shakehead

Lance is the best CLOSER ever in Tour history...he's proved it this past week

:eek: :yo: :bow: :clap: :speechles

ami go home, i have no longer respect for you and your team. :shakehead

yeah there were also lots of boo's and whistles..
thats just stupid in my eyes :banghead:

Felt sorry watching the interview with poor Jens Voigt, he was distraught after yesterday's stage.

How Kloden lost that on the line is absolutely beyond me.

How Kloden lost that on the line is absolutely beyond me.

You haven't gotten the memo yet, that Armstrong = GOD?

You haven't gotten the memo yet, that Armstrong = GOD?

i prefer the name pharmstrong from now on. :D

i prefer the name pharmstrong from now on. :D

you don't think the rest of the Tour dope up as well, keep dreaming chief :shakehead

you don't think the rest of the Tour dope up as well, keep dreaming chief :shakehead

i don't think any sport is clean.

i just can't stand armstrong and together he proved i'm right. cycling will be much better without armstrong, although i give him respect for his working attitude and his will to win!

There is a difference between doping and using things that aren't forbidden yet. There is some doping, but not as much as one might think.
US Postal is known for using the newest stuff, former team members already said so. It's not really doping, because it isn't forbidden yet.

It shouldn't surprise anybody that there are reproaches against Armstrong. He was in contact with Doctor Ferrari and many top US-athletes had positive doping tests lately, which is enough for some people to be suspicious about dominant athletes.


You could make cycling much cleaner, if you would change the rules a bit.
First, don't have a list with forbidden active substances, make it the other way round. That negates the use of new substances.
Second, use harsher control methods, not only in some countries, like it is now, but all over the world.
Germany for example, has an independent commission which controls every pro-cyclist whenever and wherever they want to. It doesn't matter if the cyclist is in Germany or Australia, they get a call and will be controlled six hours later. Every cyclist can be controlled as often as the commission wants to.

Second, use harsher control methods, not only in some countries, like it is now, but all over the world.
Germany for example, has an independent commission which controls every pro-cyclist whenever and wherever they want to. It doesn't matter if the cyclist is in Germany or Australia, they get a call and will be controlled six hours later. Every cyclist can be controlled as often as the commission wants to.

wasn't the anti-doping fight a problem in the USA? it's not really a surprise, but i remember a lot of trouble between the US and rest of the world in this case.

germany has one of the best anti-doping programs and maybe that's why germany is sucking so much in almost any sports where they dominated in the past. ;)

I do not understand why many of the roadies still arent following Lances technique of using such a high cadence.

It requires a lot of training. It's not that easy when you're used to the "big cog wheel".

wasn't the anti-doping fight a problem in the USA? it's not really a surprise, but i remember a lot of trouble between the US and rest of the world in this case.

germany has one of the best anti-doping programs and maybe that's why germany is sucking so much in almost any sports where they dominated in the past. ;)

Punk!

Punk!

how did you know? although the times when i had a mohawk are behind. :D

try something else, dude! :)

Doping is extremely common in USA. Athletics, baseball, football, hockey, cykling (?), basketball you name it. Its not the American athletes fault though. When you have a system that almost encourages use of illigal substances by not having tests at all, its very tempting to use it...

Doping is extremely common in USA. Athletics, baseball, football, hockey, cykling (?), basketball you name it. Its not the American athletes fault though. When you have a system that almost encourages use of illigal substances by not having tests at all, its very tempting to use it...

it's very common in other countries too, for example the post-communist countries. simply no control, like you said.

but yes, it's the athletes fault. nobody forces them to take illegal substances, unless maybe in china or so.

it's very common in other countries too, for example the post-communist countries. simply no control, like you said.

but yes, it's the athletes fault. nobody forces them to take illegal substances, unless maybe in china or so.

I agree...but when athletes that has tested positive just months ago are invited to Olympics something is seriously wrong. Shame on the US for that.

I agree...but when athletes that has tested positive just months ago are invited to Olympics something is seriously wrong. Shame on the US for that.

absolutely! but there are at least small steps into the right direction in the US so there's hope.

in italy there seems to be something wrong as well. there are always police and lawyers involved, but nevertheless we have always italian doping sinners in cycling.

wasn't the anti-doping fight a problem in the USA? it's not really a surprise, but i remember a lot of trouble between the US and rest of the world in this case.

germany has one of the best anti-doping programs and maybe that's why germany is sucking so much in almost any sports where they dominated in the past. ;)


maybe if you'd dope up your fans they wouldn't feel the need to spit and cuss cyclists on their way by :banghead:

maybe if you'd dope up your fans they wouldn't feel the need to spit and cuss cyclists on their way by :banghead:

Did anyone hear the interview with McEwan after the Alpe D`Huez climb? Pretty funny stuff. He wasn`t very fond of Germans there :)

Personally I think Lance is a whiner. My God. Everybody know Alpe D`Huez is very crowded, it may be dangerous yes, but come on. Basso, Ullrich and every other rider face the same danger as Armstrong, yet you only hear him complain loudly about it. Cykling will never be safe, especially not TDF. If you`re afraid, then stay home Lance!

Did anyone hear the interview with McEwan after the Alpe D`Huez climb? Pretty funny stuff. He wasn`t very fond of Germans there :)

Personally I think Lance is a whiner. My God. Everybody know Alpe D`Huez is very crowded, it may be dangerous yes, but come on. Basso, Ullrich and every other rider face the same danger as Armstrong, yet you only hear him complain loudly about it. Cykling will never be safe, especially not TDF. If you`re afraid, then stay home Lance!

He's gonna continue racing until he knows he can't win the Tour, who knows how many more years that will be with the amount of EPO he takes ;) ... :lol

it's very common in other countries too, for example the post-communist countries. simply no control, like you said.

but yes, it's the athletes fault. nobody forces them to take illegal substances, unless maybe in china or so.

American cheating is just payback for all those East German female weightlifters with hair growing off of their eyes getting shot-up in lockerrooms by corrupt Olympic gymnastics judges ("oooh, what's this? A 6.5 from the East German judge?!") just moments before competition. You should just be thankful we broke the back of the Soviets or half of your country's children would still be speaking Russian and drinking bovine growth hormone in their state-issued school milch drink boxes.

Just because others did something wrong doesn't mean you have to to the same, it's cheating. Some countries need it, others don't...

The USA may have broken the back of the Soviets, but it was still the decision of Gorbachev and Kohl to unite Germany. Without these two the Americans could have done whatever they wanted and it wouldn't have changed a thing.

Actually most of the GDR's youth never spoke Russian, it was a German state after all. ;)

Just because others did something wrong doesn't mean you have to to the same, it's cheating. Some countries need it, others don't...


that's the bush doctrine: an eye for an eye ;)


The USA may have broken the back of the Soviets, but it was still the decision of Gorbachev and Kohl to unite Germany. Without these two the Americans could have done whatever they wanted and it wouldn't have changed a thing.


the US did what? broke the back of the soviets? hmm...i may missed that part. :shakehead


Actually most of the GDR's youth never spoke Russian, it was a German state after all. ;)

but most had to learn russian in school as first foreign language. and to be on-topic again, i'm pretty sure zabel, voigt and some others speak at least a little bit russian. ;)

For final three stages, it looks like that biggest excitement is around green and white jerseys

Points classification after stage 17:
1 Robbie McEwen (Aus) Lotto-Domo 225 pts
2 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Crédit Agricole 213
3 Erik Zabel (Ger) T-Mobile Team 212
4 Stuart O'Grady (Aus) Cofidis - Le Crédit Par Téléphone 204

McEwen won in 2002, Zabel is six-time-winner.

Today there is mountain stage so I don't think there is much chance for sprinters except early intermediate sprint today.
In mountain stages there is also less points available. But in Champs-Elysee stage (the last) there is
35 points for stage winner, 30 for 2nd, 26 for 3rd, 24 for 4th, 22 for 5th, 20 for 6th and then difference is 1 point so 25th gets 1 point. There is also intermediate sprints which are worth of 6, 4 and 2 points for top 3.


Young rider classification

1 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Brioches La Boulangère 74.26.08
2 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears - Banesto 0.45
3 Sandy Casar (Fra) Fdjeux.com 1.56

Today there is one mountain stage (though easier than some of the previous) so it is possible to make the gaps. Voeckler psobable tries to keep eye on Karpets today.
Saturday time trial also makes differences. Making differences in last stage is very difficult.

Why do you stinkin' Germans have to bleed the life out of a good mud-slinging competition with your incessant moralizing? Agghh!!!

Is postwar Germany so damnably conflict-adverse that you can't even bring yourself to hurl a few insults across the Atlantic without resorting to this parsimonious, passive-aggressive gibberish? Oh yes, there you go - heap coals on my seat in hell by being high-minded in reply to my vitriol. You're so much better than to lower yourself to that level, unless the comments are directed at someone not present because he's too busy winning a bicycle race!

Quel ressentiment! All of Nietzsche's good work undone by a couple of lousy wars. I guess we bombed the backbone out of you people.

Some props and RIP for Marco Pantani -- Lance came 1 second away from beating Marco's record for this climb. The difference is that Pantani did it as part of a 203-km stage instead of just by itself, which seems pretty amazing on the face of it.


:bow: :bow:

There is a difference between doping and using things that aren't forbidden yet. There is some doping, but not as much as one might think.
US Postal is known for using the newest stuff, former team members already said so. It's not really doping, because it isn't forbidden yet.
So,for example, THG wasn't doping because it was used before it was known and forbidden?? :lol:

You could make cycling much cleaner, if you would change the rules a bit.
First, don't have a list with forbidden active substances, make it the other way round. That negates the use of new substances.

:shakehead
the use of new substances is not negated at all until they can't be found by drug tests...

So you would like a Tour made of 20 completely plain stages where the competition is really close and even Petacchi can win the Tour because there is no place to make the difference??

You're mixing two different arguments.
Tour's path is not good or bad because of how much close the competition results to be. That's depend much more on how the riders do.
...

Where did I say any of that?
obviously you didn't, since it was ME just doing this paradox to underline that a path that keeps the competition close is not necessarily a good path.


Most years, I think it's set up so that a great climber vs. a great time trialer would both have a real chance of winning (so long as they're decent at the other). To me, that's a good course.
Unfortunately that has not been the case for at least the last 15 years!!
It's a long time by now that the Tour is regularly severely biased towards time trials specialists.


Since no one is suggesting 14 plain stages, and since the organizers would never choose such a course anyway, that's a completely moot point.
Unfortunately it's just what the organizers are feeding to us by a long time.
If it's not 14 stages, it's 13.

For final three stages, it looks like that biggest excitement is around green and white jerseys

Points classification after stage 17:
1 Robbie McEwen (Aus) Lotto-Domo 225 pts
2 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Crédit Agricole 213
3 Erik Zabel (Ger) T-Mobile Team 212
4 Stuart O'Grady (Aus) Cofidis - Le Crédit Par Téléphone 204

McEwen won in 2002, Zabel is six-time-winner.

Today there is mountain stage so I don't think there is much chance for sprinters except early intermediate sprint today.
In mountain stages there is also less points available. But in Champs-Elysee stage (the last) there is
35 points for stage winner, 30 for 2nd, 26 for 3rd, 24 for 4th, 22 for 5th, 20 for 6th and then difference is 1 point so 25th gets 1 point. There is also intermediate sprints which are worth of 6, 4 and 2 points for top 3.

Scratch Hushovd from that competition. He`s really sick and said he`s given up the green jersey for now. It will be a miracle if he survives todays stage :cry:

Unfortunately that has not been the case for at least the last 15 years!! It's a long time by now that the Tour is regularly severely biased towards time trials specialists.

You're wrong. Time-trials have been a part of the Tour since day one and you even had more time-tials in the past. When you're not good at it then you're chances to win the Tour are slim to none, unless you're a fabulous climber like Marco Pantani or Lucien van Impe. Most of the specialists could also beat the best climbers in the mountains (Indurain, Hinault). They were overall simply better.

Scratch Hushovd from that competition.

Yeah, right! ;)