3rd best Quarterback in the NFL?

ObeySteve
07-17-2004, 12:51 PM
Given overall ability, who is currently (Not taking into account their entire career, not taking into account amount of future potential) the third best quarterback in the NFL?

I decided to make this a thread about the third best, because it seems to be an almost-consensus decision that Manning and McNair are the two best QBs in the league.

PredsFan77*
07-17-2004, 12:53 PM
They all have their particular field they excel in, but if I have a team and I want a QB that will win me games..I'm taking Brady.

Dave is a killer
07-17-2004, 12:57 PM
Brady...he's won two Super Bowls in 3 or 4 years...he's definitely the best of the young guns

JCD
07-17-2004, 01:04 PM
Tough to not say Brady right now. That said, I don't think he is as much a slam dunk as people indicate. He is in a plum position where he only needs to manage the game, not win it. That takes a clutch performance, but Billick, Adam V.'s kicking and the play of the defense are more key to the Patriots victory than Brady. Brady still gets my pick though.

Bit surprised that Culpepper didn't even make the poll. Might not be the 3rd best, but he is as deserving of being mentioned as a couple others there.

senate
07-17-2004, 01:35 PM
In his prime Favre would win hands down, but now I'd say it have to be Brady,

JCD
07-17-2004, 01:52 PM
Expanding on this theme to spark some discussion...

Upper Tier
Best of the best. Elite franchise-caliber guys.

McNair- Favre-esque ability to shine while injured
Manning- The ultimate technician. "Choke" title overblown, he has not been the weak link.
McNabb- Might need to get out of the WCO to show his full abilities.
Culpepper- Physically, the ideal. Flaw is that he forces throws to make plays.
Brady- Ultimate game manager. Doesn't make mistakes, does what is asked of him.
Favre- Not the player of old, but the prototypical gun slinger.

Second tier
A notch below the other guys. Something is lacking.

Vick- Has great tools, still learning what to do with them. Below-par as a passer.
Hasselbeck- Could bump up if he repeats last year. Great thrower.
Pennington- Brady-esque in his ability to manage games. Needs to show he is the real deal.

Third Tier
Quality starters, have limitations.

Green- Great game manager, taking what is given. Doesn't make many plays though.
Brooks- Great numbers, results are lacking.
Brunnell- Savvy vet ways better than his career numbers indicate, still a quality player if healthy.
Johnson- Game manager who takes what is given.
Bledsoe- Pure pocket passer. Needs good protection and receiving options to be effective, so only as good as the team in front of him.
Delhomme- Came up big when asked, but isn't asked very often.
Plummer- Looks great when all is well, looks bad when things are not.
Gannon- Classic WCO, smart and accurate. Bad fit anywhere else.
Collins- Pure pocker QB, poor-man's Bledsoe.
Bulger- Limited tools and so-so decision making. Good fit in a productive system.
Carr- Shows great leadership and savvy for a youngster. Needs to show production.

Fourth Tier
Borderline starters with notable flaws.

Maddox- Can execute a game plan, but a pure pocket passer and can't improvise.
Garcia- Decent WCO, but showing age and injuries. Bad downfield thrower.
Warner- Executes a play in robotic fashion. Predictable, immobile and can't improvise.

Fifth Tier
Bad starter, back-up quality

Fiedler- Caretaker only. Feely is no better.
Boller- Excellent athlete, suspect passer. Was so coming out of college.
McCown- His few plays made highlights, but did little in between.

Incomplete
Palmer- Kitna would be a better player this year, but he is no more than an adequate starter and not getting better. Palmer is an unknown.
Harrington- Pivotal year. Has not shown much yet, but hasn't had much to work with. If he doesn't come through this year, time to look for another QB.
Leftwich- Could be another Collins or Bledsoe. Smart and strong armed.
Rivers- Is he even better than Brees?
Rattay- Could be a fluke, could be a decent downfield passer.

TVanek26*
07-17-2004, 01:56 PM
I'll take Brett Favre over Steve McNair anyday of the week,so who's consensus is it that McNair is better then Favre?The stats and playoff wins sure don't show it.

ObeySteve
07-17-2004, 03:39 PM
Very nice breakdown, JCD.

I used to believe I was the only one who thought Vick's throwing abilities were below average.

Wild Thing
07-17-2004, 03:50 PM
JCD, you know a hell of a lot more about football than I do, but still - Culpepper? That guy's gotta be the only quarterback in the NFL who's dumber than the ball. I just don't see him as an elite QB. The reason he forces all those throws is that the game just moves faster than he's able to think. I just don't believe the guy has the head to go with that arm and those legs, and I don't think that's something he can ever change. You can teach a guy a lot of things, but you just can't teach him to have a higher IQ. The only time he ever knows what to do is if Moss is open deep, and hell, even I can figure that one out.

Having said that, I think I'd go with Brady, McNair, and Manning, in that order. Favre's lost something. I'm glad I got a chance to watch him in his prime, because I don't think you'll ever see the same game from him that you used to see a couple of years ago. His focus and his ability to rise up and take the whole game in his hands seems to have disappeared somehow.

Tuggy
07-17-2004, 04:30 PM
Brady no question. I would take him over any QB in the NFL.

JCD
07-17-2004, 04:37 PM
JCD, you know a hell of a lot more about football than I do, but still - Culpepper? That guy's gotta be the only quarterback in the NFL who's dumber than the ball. I just don't see him as an elite QB. The reason he forces all those throws is that the game just moves faster than he's able to think. I just don't believe the guy has the head to go with that arm and those legs, and I don't think that's something he can ever change. You can teach a guy a lot of things, but you just can't teach him to have a higher IQ. The only time he ever knows what to do is if Moss is open deep, and hell, even I can figure that one out.

Culpepper has a good head on his shoulders. The team doesn't have to dumb down the offense ala Kordell Stewart. When he is given time to go through his progressions, he finds the open man. Culpepper is much more than just a deep ball to Moss. Truth is, he is at his worst when he does that. Culpepper has had a quality line only twice in his career. First time (first year as a starter), he took the team to the NFC Championship while being one of a handful of QBs to ever notch 40 TDs in a season. Next time, he led the NFC in QB rating. Those two years he had QB ratings of 98.0 and 96.4. Just for context, Favre, Manning and McNair have only one season better than either of them while McNabb and Brady have never topped 90. Now consider that your QB rating only reflects your ability as a passer and does not take running ability into consideration. Point is, when Culpepper is given time to throw, he makes the most of it. Vikes don't run a dink and dunk passing scheme either.

Culpepper struggles when he is forced to make plays on the run when he had nothing to work with. As do every QB. When the protection sucked (and it did badly in 2001 and 2002) he had to throw fast, run or take a sack. When the team is down by multiple scores, running the ball plays into the defenses hands. It is sack or throw time. Problem was that the Vikes have not had a worthwhile receiving option other than Moss in years. Teams blanketed Moss, especially when playing with a lead. That means that even when you have enough time to throw, it is picking who you want to force the ball to. Either Moss in double/triple coverage or one of the scrubs who can't beat single coverage Bates/Campbell/Walsh/Alexander. Culpepper threw a lot prayers in those situations. Toss a jump ball and hope his guy comes down with it.

He gets a bad rap because he is athletic. While many athletic QBs don't have the software to excel, Culpepper does. Highest completion percentage ever coming out of college and never a season below 60% (in a vertical offense no less). Highest rated QB in the NFC, only QBs rated higher shared the MVP. Has produced at a 28+ TD clip every year as a starter. If he were a one-trick pony, just an athlete, the league would have caught up with him. The more a QB plays, the more of him is on film for defenses to disect. That is why a guy like Stewart went from God to Goat in short order. 4 years in, Culpepper has only gotten better.

He is a little known tid-bit. Culpepper has produced more TDs and fewer TOs than Favre at the same point in his career. Early on, Favre had the same rap Culpepper does. Good athlete, but forces balls. Tries too hard to make the big play rather than take what is given. While I don't think Dante has Favre's savvy, that same 'gunslinger' mentality opens him up for criticism. Culpepper is not a game managing QB. The 'gunslinger' types always have doubters until the rack up mad-crazy numbers and/or win a Super Bowl (heck, there are still critics of Marino for crying out loud). Culpepper is on his way with the numbers, I can only hope he does the other. Again, not saying that Culpepper is another Favre or Marino, only that they play the same way. They take risks. More often than not, they pay off. The critics only see the mistakes though.

JCD
07-17-2004, 04:57 PM
Very nice breakdown, JCD.

I used to believe I was the only one who thought Vick's throwing abilities were below average.

Should have seen the debate here last summer. A couple of us question the god-hood that is Vick and were laid out for it.

Vick can't beat a team with his arm. Yet. Doesn't mean he won't learn how, but he has a lot of work to do. A QBs job, first and foremost, is throwing the ball. Rushing is secondary. Want another running threat? Put an extra RB in.

Personally, I think Vick is headed for disaster this year. He was a mediocre passer in college and below-average in the NFL. Now they want to run a West Coast Offense. A system built off of timing and accuracy, Vick's weakest points. Arm strength is a virtual non-factor, Vick's strongest asset. Seems like the antithesis to Vick's game.

Wild Thing
07-17-2004, 10:58 PM
Well, like I said, you know a hell of a lot more about football than I do. I don't have much to say to that, except thanks for the lesson!

I had the privilege last fall of meeting Culpepper's high school baseball coach while hiking in Northern Wisconsin. He and a friend had come up to hunt grouse, and we just came across each other in the woods and started talking. When I mentioned where I live, he told me of his connection to Daunte and spoke very highly of him. Couldn't say enough positive things about him as a young man. I enjoyed meeting him, and hearing about what a great kid Culpepper was when he was growing up. I wish him all the success in the world - he's had a tough life.

JCD
07-17-2004, 11:42 PM
I had the privilege last fall of meeting Culpepper's high school baseball coach while hiking in Northern Wisconsin. He and a friend had come up to hunt grouse, and we just came across each other in the woods and started talking. When I mentioned where I live, he told me of his connection to Daunte and spoke very highly of him. Couldn't say enough positive things about him as a young man. I enjoyed meeting him, and hearing about what a great kid Culpepper was when he was growing up. I wish him all the success in the world - he's had a tough life.

I have heard much of the same.

Kinda sad. So many thug NFLers getting mixed up in drugs, beating their wives/girlfriends and involved in violent crimes and yet a class act like Culpepper is a virtual unknown to most fans. A solid citizen all around. What was the first thing he bought with his signing bonus? When others are out buying sports cars and such, he gets his grandma (who raised him) a new house. Went to a small college to stay closer to home in order to help out. After excelling early, he turn down transfer offers because he committed to UCF.

NFL needs more guys like Culpepper. Too bad those stories don't sell as much as confrontations with meter maids.

Wild Thing
07-18-2004, 12:27 AM
I have heard much of the same.

Kinda sad. So many thug NFLers getting mixed up in drugs, beating their wives/girlfriends and involved in violent crimes and yet a class act like Culpepper is a virtual unknown to most fans. A solid citizen all around. What was the first thing he bought with his signing bonus? When others are out buying sports cars and such, he gets his grandma (who raised him) a new house. Went to a small college to stay closer to home in order to help out. After excelling early, he turn down transfer offers because he committed to UCF.

NFL needs more guys like Culpepper. Too bad those stories don't sell as much as confrontations with meter maids.

That's one reason I'm glad the Vikes ran Denny Green out of town when they did. Did you notice the change in demeanor that came over Culpepper after that first season? He was starting to get sucked into Denny's whining, divisive, "they're all out to screw us, we don't get no respect" mindset. That calm, friendly smile was giving way to a smug, cynical sneer, and I think one more year of being mentored by Denny would have turned the poor kid to the dark side forever. Daunte's the dictionary definition of a total class act in my book.

I liked that story you shared in your PM. Damn good guy. Almost enough to make me a Viking fan, as soon as Favre retires and Moss flees the country to avoid prosecution.

in the hall
07-18-2004, 01:05 AM
I don't know about McNair. He finds ways to win but there are a few QB's I'd take over him.

Gibsons Finest
07-18-2004, 03:06 AM
Expanding on this theme to spark some discussion...

Upper Tier
Best of the best. Elite franchise-caliber guys.

McNair- Favre-esque ability to shine while injured
Manning- The ultimate technician. "Choke" title overblown, he has not been the weak link.
McNabb- Might need to get out of the WCO to show his full abilities.
Culpepper- Physically, the ideal. Flaw is that he forces throws to make plays.
Brady- Ultimate game manager. Doesn't make mistakes, does what is asked of him.
Favre- Not the player of old, but the prototypical gun slinger.

Second tier
A notch below the other guys. Something is lacking.

Vick- Has great tools, still learning what to do with them. Below-par as a passer.
Hasselbeck- Could bump up if he repeats last year. Great thrower.
Pennington- Brady-esque in his ability to manage games. Needs to show he is the real deal.

Third Tier
Quality starters, have limitations.

Green- Great game manager, taking what is given. Doesn't make many plays though.
Brooks- Great numbers, results are lacking.
Brunnell- Savvy vet ways better than his career numbers indicate, still a quality player if healthy.
Johnson- Game manager who takes what is given.
Bledsoe- Pure pocket passer. Needs good protection and receiving options to be effective, so only as good as the team in front of him.
Delhomme- Came up big when asked, but isn't asked very often.
Plummer- Looks great when all is well, looks bad when things are not.
Gannon- Classic WCO, smart and accurate. Bad fit anywhere else.
Collins- Pure pocker QB, poor-man's Bledsoe.
Bulger- Limited tools and so-so decision making. Good fit in a productive system.
Carr- Shows great leadership and savvy for a youngster. Needs to show production.

Fourth Tier
Borderline starters with notable flaws.

Maddox- Can execute a game plan, but a pure pocket passer and can't improvise.
Garcia- Decent WCO, but showing age and injuries. Bad downfield thrower.
Warner- Executes a play in robotic fashion. Predictable, immobile and can't improvise.

Fifth Tier
Bad starter, back-up quality

Fiedler- Caretaker only. Feely is no better.
Boller- Excellent athlete, suspect passer. Was so coming out of college.
McCown- His few plays made highlights, but did little in between.

Incomplete
Palmer- Kitna would be a better player this year, but he is no more than an adequate starter and not getting better. Palmer is an unknown.
Harrington- Pivotal year. Has not shown much yet, but hasn't had much to work with. If he doesn't come through this year, time to look for another QB.
Leftwich- Could be another Collins or Bledsoe. Smart and strong armed.
Rivers- Is he even better than Brees?
Rattay- Could be a fluke, could be a decent downfield passer.

Well, not totally true. He's an unkown in the football world, but not in entertainment. Unfortunately, I see him heading to the CFL soon, possibly taking over the Montreal Alouettes if Anthony Calvillo leaves(or maybe he's signed long-term. I don't know. All I know is he belongs to the Als.)

MacDaddy TLC*
07-18-2004, 07:06 AM
Wrong Palmer!!! He is talking Carson Palmer of the Cinci Bengals not Jesse 'lookin for love in all the wrong places' Palmer of the Bachelor. He has no future in any football league. I see his future as smarmy game show host because he is dumber than most plant life. Carson Palmer was a high pick last year and maybe has a bright future.

leafaholix*
07-18-2004, 07:14 AM
Damon Allen.

JCD
07-18-2004, 09:07 AM
That's one reason I'm glad the Vikes ran Denny Green out of town when they did. Did you notice the change in demeanor that came over Culpepper after that first season? He was starting to get sucked into Denny's whining, divisive, "they're all out to screw us, we don't get no respect" mindset. That calm, friendly smile was giving way to a smug, cynical sneer, and I think one more year of being mentored by Denny would have turned the poor kid to the dark side forever. Daunte's the dictionary definition of a total class act in my book.

Green was a great fairweather coach. Good with X's and O's, but terrible for moral. When things got rough, it snowballed out of control fast. His sub-par coaching in both NFC Championship games are perfect examples. The total collapse in his final year was the last straw.

By the end, Denny coached a team of individuals. He has lost control of the locker room. He put down seperate rules for "his guys" and the rest of the team. The team was ruled by some core vets. Example, the team always called Cris Carter's number inside the 20, he went ape-poopy if anybody else caught a pass near the endzone. Carter constantly badgered Culpepper on the sideline when somebody else caught a pass in TD range (and Moss, who was often the recipiant). John Randall only had pass rushing responsibilities, our run defense sucked for years because he didn't give a crap about the RB. Lesser vets and rookies had to play as the coach dictated, these guys did what they wanted too.

The first 2 seasons under Tice was spent rebuilding the fractured locker room and making them a team again. Denny's guys had to go for that to happen.

I liked that story you shared in your PM. Damn good guy. Almost enough to make me a Viking fan, as soon as Favre retires and Moss flees the country to avoid prosecution.

I am a Moss apologist. I don't think he is nearly as bad as the press indicates. IMO, he isn't the brightest bulb on the tree and can be coaxed into saying stupid things. Media loves that stuff. He is kinda like Barasso. He got burned by the media a few times, so clammed up and stopped talking. That left only one side of the coin to be heard with no explination.

A few examples:
1) The infamous "I play when I want to play." It was a quote taken out of context from an interview in the Pioneer Press. It was regarding Carter's increasingly frequent sideline antics, Moss was asked "does Carter's actions motivate you to play", then came the quote. Context is everything. It is also worth noting that Moss has never missed an NFL game.
2) The Meter Maid. Moss never ran anybody over. He was following another car making an illegal turn. The lady ran into the ran and stood in front of his car. After a verbal confrotnation, the meter maid jumped on his hood TJ Hooker style, as he coasted through the turn and pulled over a few feet down the road. Eye witnesses supported Moss' version of the story and most of the charges were dropped. The meter maid was let go because of multiple confrontations like this. Not surprisingly, she (and her boyfriend) pressed a multi-million dollar lawsuit over the event. It was thrown out.
3) Bad teammate. I guess this primarily stems from his sideline duels with Carter. Problem is that the rest of his teammates love him. It is virtually impossible to find any one of them with something negative to say. Here is a story didn't get as much press as any of Moss' other actions. When Stringer was dying from heat stroke, the first person to call his wife was Moss. Moss had her on a chartered privated flight to Mankato in hopes that she might get to see Kory one last time before anybody else even contacted her.
4) Pot head. Moss got into trouble in college, but has never been suspended by the NFL for drug use. One positive test gets you into the system, but this is never released to the public. The second gets you suspended. Moss has, at most, one positive test.

In all, I think Moss gets a bad rap. I think he has a chip on his shoulder and he hates the media. He is no rocket scientist and he doesn't surround himself with the best influences (the "posse" lifestyle), but you can say that for tons and tons of athletes. While he is by no means a saint, he isn't the selfish thug he is painted out to be.

skidboot
07-18-2004, 09:21 AM
I think it has to go to Brady. (actually I'd have Brady topping the list)
Winning games is what it is all about.
He really spreads it out to all his receivers and RB's.
He is as cool as it gets when it is time to shine.
His numbers speak for themselves.




My top 3.

Brady
McNair (toughest QB since Steve Grogan)
Manning.


now I have mentioned two Pats QB's but please don't think I'm in any way shape or form a Pats fan.

Gibsons Finest
07-18-2004, 06:05 PM
Wrong Palmer!!! He is talking Carson Palmer of the Cinci Bengals not Jesse 'lookin for love in all the wrong places' Palmer of the Bachelor. He has no future in any football league. I see his future as smarmy game show host because he is dumber than most plant life. Carson Palmer was a high pick last year and maybe has a bright future.

I feel like an idiot. I guess it shows how much of an unkown Carson Palmer is if some will confuse him with Jesse.

TVanek26*
07-18-2004, 06:25 PM
Damon Allen.


If you're gonna act like a moron don't pollute this thread.You don't like the NFL,you don't have to post in an NFL thread.You don't see people intentionally going into a thread or board for the sole purpose of baiting (besides trolls,which you are pretty much one)

Hossa
07-18-2004, 08:41 PM
I'm not a football guru like you JCD, but personally, I wouldn't rank Pennington in the second tier yet. He had one good year where he started about 12 games and had a solid playoff showing, but followed that up with an injury-riddled, statistically-unimpressive season on a poor Jets team. He's third tier for sure, but in my mind, he's a reach as a second tier guy at this point. The potential's there for him to step up into the second level, because he thinks the game incredibly well and his nimble feet are a nice asset, but I don't think he can be firmly placed ahead of guys like Green or Brooks at this point.

leafaholix*
07-19-2004, 03:34 AM
If you're gonna act like a moron don't pollute this thread.You don't like the NFL,you don't have to post in an NFL thread.You don't see people intentionally going into a thread or board for the sole purpose of baiting (besides trolls,which you are pretty much one)
When did I ever say I don't like the NFL?

I like the NFL... but only because of fantasy sports.

But it's nice to know that you pay attention to every single one of my posts.

leafaholix*
07-19-2004, 03:37 AM
As for the thread, I went with Brady. He edged out McNabb by a hair. Favre came in behind the two because of his age, but he's still a hell of a QB. Vick is the most athletic QB in the league, but I'm not sure he's a good enough passer. He has a rocket for an arm, but I'm not sure if he can make some of the passes guys like Brady or Favre can make.

Does anyone know Vick's completion % last season? It must be lower than the other guys on the poll.

JCD
07-19-2004, 08:00 AM
As for the thread, I went with Brady. He edged out McNabb by a hair. Favre came in behind the two because of his age, but he's still a hell of a QB. Vick is the most athletic QB in the league, but I'm not sure he's a good enough passer. He has a rocket for an arm, but I'm not sure if he can make some of the passes guys like Brady or Favre can make.

Does anyone know Vick's completion % last season? It must be lower than the other guys on the poll.

50.0% last year. 52.2% for his career. As a rookie, an abysmal 44.2%. A mediocre 54.9% two years ago.

QB Rating, career: 76.3. 62.7 as a rookie, 81.6 two years ago, 69.0 last year. To put those numbers into perspective, Jeff Blake, Quincy Carter and Jay Fielder all rated higher. Only 2 starters did worse, Joey Harrington and Drew Brees.

leafaholix*
07-19-2004, 08:07 AM
50.0% last year. 52.2% for his career. As a rookie, an abysmal 44.2%. A mediocre 54.9% two years ago.

QB Rating, career: 76.3. 62.7 as a rookie, 81.6 two years ago, 69.0 last year. To put those numbers into perspective, Jeff Blake, Quincy Carter and Jay Fielder all rated higher. Only 2 starters did worse, Joey Harrington and Drew Brees.
Thank you very much.