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-   -   Todd Bertuzzi Idea (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=100663)

thrill89 08-29-2004 06:19 PM

Todd Bertuzzi Idea
 
I wonder if Vancover has any thoughts about letting him go to another team . I know he is a top five player in the league and would be exactly what every team in the NHL wants.
So here it goes... Blackburn, Lundmark and Rachnek or POTI FOR TODD BERTUZZI.
I would even include one of our second picks to close the deal
Just a idea I think Sather should examine.
Vancover gets a future franchise goalie and young center plus a offensive defen seman to control power play.

Nazzy-19 08-29-2004 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thrill89
I wonder if Vancover has any thoughts about letting him go to another team . I know he is a top five player in the league and would be exactly what every team in the NHL wants.
So here it goes... Blackburn, Lundmark and Rachnek or POTI FOR TODD BERTUZZI.
I would even include one of our second picks to close the deal
Just a idea I think Sather should examine.
Vancover gets a future franchise goalie and young center plus a offensive defen seman to control power play.

First off I think that it is important that Bertuzzi plays in Vancouver with Naslund where he is comfortable when he comes back.

Secondly we would never do that trade. We need a top 6 RW and if we trade Bertuzzi it means we now need 2.

Thirty One 08-29-2004 06:28 PM

I don't understand why most Ranger fans think Bertuzzi is all that. He is not even close to a top five player.

Kubera55 08-29-2004 06:37 PM

Yeah, I actually thought awhile back about trading for Bert now that his stock has ...er... taken a bit of a tumble. But your offer is off the charts. Bertuzzi costs his team more than Jagr costs the Rangers, scores less, takes more penalties, is a national pariah, and doesn't have anything approaching his resume. Oh, and he's also only about three years younger.

As an example, do you think we can get Jackman, Schwarz, and a young forward with upside from St.Louis for Jagr? (if so, let's do so.)

If I were making an offer for Bertuzzi, it would be centered around Jagr. Expensive marquee scoring forward for expensive marquee scoring forward. But the Canucks would have to sweeten. It'd be something like:

Canucks get:
Jagr
$4 million (to cover Jagr's deferred money)

Rangers get:
Bertuzzi
2nd round pick
B-prospect

Though, I'd push extremely hard for Vancouver's 1st rounder to be included in the deal.

Nazzy-19 08-29-2004 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubera55
Yeah, I actually thought awhile back about trading for Bert now that his stock has ...er... taken a bit of a tumble. But your offer is off the charts. Bertuzzi costs his team more than Jagr costs the Rangers, scores less, takes more penalties, is a national pariah, and doesn't have anything approaching his resume. Oh, and he's also only about three years younger.

As an example, do you think we can get Jackman, Schwarz, and a young forward with upside from St.Louis for Jagr? (if so, let's do so.)

If I were making an offer for Bertuzzi, it would be centered around Jagr. Expensive marquee scoring forward for expensive marquee scoring forward. But the Canucks would have to sweeten. It'd be something like:

Canucks get:
Jagr
$4 million (to cover Jagr's deferred money)

Rangers get:
Bertuzzi
2nd round pick
B-prospect

Though, I'd push extremely hard for Vancouver's 1st rounder to be included in the deal.

If we had 4million to throw around we'd just sign a UFA and wouldn't worry about making any trades for a top 6 forward

barnaby63 08-29-2004 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazzy-19
If we had 4million to throw around we'd just sign a UFA and wouldn't worry about making any trades for a top 6 forward

Umm the Canucks would be getting the 4 million. So all you would be paying Jagr is 2 million a year while getting better production.

Edge 08-29-2004 06:51 PM

I've honestly never been as high on Bertuzzi as some. I think he is a good player but I never thought of him as a great player.

Kubera55 08-29-2004 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnaby63
Umm the Canucks would be getting the 4 million. So all you would be paying Jagr is 2 million a year while getting better production.

Um, yes and no. The Canucks would be getting the money, but as a one-time payment to cover the $4 million Jagr has currently deferred to the final year of his contract.

So Jagr would cost the Canucks a legit $6 million per year, for four years, with no balloon payment at the end. Bertuzzi costs $7 million per year for the same span I believe.

Basically the cash strapped, but talent ready, Canucks save cash and get a better player for the push for the Cup, without sacrificing too much future or getting a mere 'short-term rental'. The Rangers get younger and more youth assets, though they are gambling that the Steve Moore incident won't destroy Bertuzzi's ability to play his game in the NHL. (He's going to come back a little skittish, and the referees will watch him like a hawk for the rest of his career.)

That's why I'd lean so hard on getting the first... I might even be willing to give up the Canucks 2nd, or throw in the Rangers 3rd or 4th to get it...

Nazzy-19 08-29-2004 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnaby63
Umm the Canucks would be getting the 4 million. So all you would be paying Jagr is 2 million a year while getting better production.

Sorry I didn't read it correctly.

barnaby63 08-29-2004 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazzy-19
Sorry I didn't read it correctly.

No biggy.

BwayBshirt 08-29-2004 07:30 PM

i believe the canucks ppl would tell us they already have near-clones of rachunek and poti in salo and sopel.

Thirty One 08-29-2004 07:31 PM

I wonder how Dominic Moore would feel about this

Kubera55 08-29-2004 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -31-
I wonder how Dominic Moore would feel about this

Yikes, I hadn't even thought of that.

Of course, cynical as it may be, winning and money solve a whole lot of problems. Put Bert on his line, let him rack up a lot of assists and a fat contract, and I'd imagine Dom would eventually forgive him. Or at least stop spiking his gatorade...

BDubinskyNYR17* 08-29-2004 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubera55
Yikes, I hadn't even thought of that.

Of course, cynical as it may be, winning and money solve a whole lot of problems. Put Bert on his line, let him rack up a lot of assists and a fat contract, and I'd imagine Dom would eventually forgive him. Or at least stop spiking his gatorade...

If Steve Moore is able to play again once he is healthy, I would not mind if Rangers signed him. Maybe having Steve Moore, Dominic would play harder. Maybe it would help both players out. He is 25 and UFA.

Peter Griffin 08-29-2004 11:52 PM

Todd Bertuzzi wont be traded. His trade value is at its lowest its been in 3 years, so why deal him at this point? The only way he is dealt is if another team overpays, and at this point, that's very unlikely.

I would pass on that first proposal and the Jagr one as well. I'd rather have Bertuzzi over Jagr at this point, I strongly dislike Jagr and don't think he would be a good fit with the Canucks and the team they are trying to build.

Thirty One 08-30-2004 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
I would pass on that first proposal and the Jagr one as well.

As a Ranger fan, I would too. I have no idea what the appeal of Bertuzzi is to this rebuilding team.

Peter Griffin 08-30-2004 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -31-
As a Ranger fan, I would too. I have no idea what the appeal of Bertuzzi is to this rebuilding team.

Jagr has an appeal to a re-building team?

ginner classic 08-30-2004 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnaby63
Umm the Canucks would be getting the 4 million. So all you would be paying Jagr is 2 million a year while getting better production.

Better production? Bert outscored Jagr two of the last three years. Over that time period he has outscored him. Not sure where you get the better production argument from.

fullclip 08-30-2004 02:08 AM

Bertuzzi has good team chemistry also and is more physical than Jagr.Plus him and Naslund are best friends and with him the Canucks have the best first line in the NHL.Makes no sense to trade him right now.

melisa 08-30-2004 05:34 AM

We would be insane to do that deal. I wouldn't trade Blackburn for Bertuzzi straight up. Why?

1. I still have confidence that Blackburn will be a star goaie
2. We are rebuilding. Trading for an older player like Bertuzzi by giving up 3 young players despite the fact Lundmark stinks, is moronic
3. Blackburn if he is the goalie we do decide to move, will have a ton more value later and can moived for a young star player. Not an old one.


I still believe Blackburn will be our starter of the future. However, if one of the other 2 goalies turns out to be better there is little doubt we could move Blackburn for a young star player. Goalies, especially good young goalies have incredible value.

melisa 08-30-2004 05:36 AM

Blackburn, Lundmark and Rachunek are all young and all 3 have had their stock fall. Two due to injury and one probably to the shock of coming to a lousy team. Trading youth for our team is idiotic. Trading players when their value is at its lowest is bad management.

Law Dawg 08-30-2004 05:52 AM

Bertuzzi is close to untradeable in the Canucks books, he would have to make it clear he no longer wanted to be in Vancouver for Dave Nonis to ever consider dealing him. He is without a doubt the most physically dominant power forward in the NHL, and good power forwards are rare.

I like Dan Blackburn, but he does not help the Canucks at the present, and we already have Alex Auld coming in for fulltime duty and Cory Schneider just drafted in the first round. Overall I'm sure the Canucks would like to add another goalie to the prospects chart, but not at the expense of a massive part of the teams current lineup and playoff chances .....

melisa 08-30-2004 07:13 AM

Yeah. It makes no sense for either team. I don't think the Canucks have given up on winning now. They still have a good team. I don't like Cloutier but if the Flames, Canes and Ducks can make it to the finals the Canucks can.

in the hall 08-30-2004 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Jagr has an appeal to a re-building team?

Jagr is already here.

Bertuzzi is overrated and I would not trade Jagr for him. I'm not sure I'd even do the first deal although if it is Poti then that trade happens in a second. Who would want that piece of **** on their team anyway.

Kubera55 08-30-2004 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ginner's in T.O.
Better production? Bert outscored Jagr two of the last three years. Over that time period he has outscored him. Not sure where you get the better production argument from.

Ehhhhh, this is a little silly, isn't it?

Bertuzzi was outscored by Jagr last year by 19 points. The two previous years, Bertuzzi had one terrific year where he scored 97 points, and one very good year where he scored 85. Jagr, even in his dotage over the last three years, has never been less than a point a game player.

The right way to phrase this is to say that over the course of their respective careers, Bertuzzi has only outscored Jagr by a significant margin once, two years ago, when he had far and away his best career year. And Jagr, even a bored, groin injured, unmotivated, over 30-year-old version, was still within about 15 points of him.

Is there any reason to think Bertuzzi is going to be repeating that 97 point pace of two years ago anytime soon? (consider the effect of the Steve Moore incident on his style of play, added attention from the officials, and they were already calling him for that pushoff move in the crease). Viewed as a career, Bertuzzi is much more of a 60 point player than a 90 point player.

I would argue strenously that if you dropped Jagr into the freer skating western conference, put him on a line with Marcus Naslund, and kept him even vaguely motivated by dreams of Cup contention, he'd outscore Bertuzzi without breaking a sweat. And he'd take fewer penalties, and in my example, cost the Canucks less money.

Now, team chemistry and age are significant factors. And Jagr is not the intimidator that Bertuzzi is (though I wonder how intimidating Bert will be allowed to be post-Moore). But production and dollars? Jagr in a landslide.


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