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-   -   Will someone believe me now? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=100867)

FearTheFlyers 08-30-2004 08:29 PM

Will someone believe me now?
 
I was at Owen Sound training camp today and Ruzicka was there. But some of you guys i've been trying to convince for months he's staying in Owen Sound will take this as a sign he's getting into shape for the AHl season. Sorry folks, he won't be a Phantom this year.

Brad* 08-30-2004 10:50 PM

Sorry, not good enough. I'm gonna need photgraphic proof.

paxtang 08-30-2004 11:29 PM

I'd like to see what happens after Flyers/Phantoms camp before I say anythign is final. It would have been stupid for Stefan to not go to OS camp when a season isn't definant. I'm sure Carter and Richards will report to camp too.

BTW, there was an article from OS camp stating that Ruzicka had reported, you could have just posted that.

Jester 08-31-2004 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneSpeedOnly
I was at Owen Sound training camp today and Ruzicka was there. But some of you guys i've been trying to convince for months he's staying in Owen Sound will take this as a sign he's getting into shape for the AHl season. Sorry folks, he won't be a Phantom this year.

dude... he hasn't been offered a contract yet, and won't be until after the CBA is figured out. why wouldn't he report to camp for the team that is currently his only option to play for, because if the CBA drags on Clarkie probably won't be offering him a contract.

this is basic stuff. the CBA is almost definitely going to have some very specific clauses regarding rookie contracts, so Clarke(being the smart GM that he is, despite the little amount of credit he gets) isn't going to offer any of these guys contracts that might be way over priced for the new salary cap world.

does that mean that he will definitely make an offer to Ruzicka when the CBA gets finalized, no. it may or may not make sense to get Ruzicka up with the big boys at that point, if it is midway through the season it may be impossible to offer contracts to such players anyway. however, to say that him being in Owen Sound camp is a sign he wouldn't sign with the Flyers is somewhat simplistic considering no contracts have been thrown around yet. i would assume that Carter and Richards would be reporting to their respective teams since they don't have NHL contracts yet, and BOTH of them are potentially going to be playing for the Flyers this season if there is a season.

FearTheFlyers 08-31-2004 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester
dude... he hasn't been offered a contract yet, and won't be until after the CBA is figured out. why wouldn't he report to camp for the team that is currently his only option to play for, because if the CBA drags on Clarkie probably won't be offering him a contract.

this is basic stuff. the CBA is almost definitely going to have some very specific clauses regarding rookie contracts, so Clarke(being the smart GM that he is, despite the little amount of credit he gets) isn't going to offer any of these guys contracts that might be way over priced for the new salary cap world.

does that mean that he will definitely make an offer to Ruzicka when the CBA gets finalized, no. it may or may not make sense to get Ruzicka up with the big boys at that point, if it is midway through the season it may be impossible to offer contracts to such players anyway. however, to say that him being in Owen Sound camp is a sign he wouldn't sign with the Flyers is somewhat simplistic considering no contracts have been thrown around yet. i would assume that Carter and Richards would be reporting to their respective teams since they don't have NHL contracts yet, and BOTH of them are potentially going to be playing for the Flyers this season if there is a season.

There is a big difference between the Flyers and Phantoms that some of you haven't figured out yet.

Larry44 08-31-2004 12:22 PM

Always believed you. Rosie should stay in OS this year. There won't be enough ice time on the Flyers or on the Phantoms compared to what Stothers can give him.

Jester 08-31-2004 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneSpeedOnly
There is a big difference between the Flyers and Phantoms that some of you haven't figured out yet.

yes, there is a big difference, but Ruzicka and his agent will have ZERO interest in signing an AHL contract. Clarkie is definitely going to offer a two-way contract, or at least attempt... not sure Ruzicka is in a position to demand a one-way contract, but he isn't going to offer him that until he knows what the rookie contracts are going to look in the new CBA world.

I'm VERY aware of the differences between the two teams, and the existence of AHL, two-way, and one-way NHL contracts in the big scheme of the world. In the current environment the only contract that Clarkie is going to offer to Ruzicka is an AHL contract, that he wouldn't be interested in. Persumably when the CBA is put in place all of these prospects that the Flyers feel are ready for the next step, specifically Carter, Richards, and Ruzicka are going to be offered contracts.

In the event that the CBA is the same with these players Richards and Carter can only play at the NHL so it is a moot point. However, Ruzicka CAN play for the AHL so if he were to sign with the Flyers he would have a shot at making the team(especially in the wake of Leclair and Amonte being gone), and if not could play for the Phantoms.

In any event, him showing up in Owen Sound for training camp when he isn't signed by the Flyers yet(because they aren't going to sign any of these kids before the CBA is finalized) is absolutely meaningless to the issue of where Ruzicka is going to be playing next year. If the CBA is finalized tomorrow, I'm pretty convinced Clarke is going to look to get all three under contract, in which case Ruzicka WOULD be playing for the phantoms most likely if he was not to make the Flyers, because I'm sure the Flyers would rather he be playing at that level.

Anyway. Him being in training camp doesn't speak to the issue of his status with the Flyers in any way yet. If the CBA is a done deal and Clarkie doesn't make an offer, or Ruzicka says no, THAT is when it will be definitive that he isn't going pro this year. However, I'm not sure why he wouldn't go pro at that point since he would be getting paid to play hockey within the organization he's theoretically going to be in the NHL(potentially on the NHL team), but completely understand why he and his agent don't want to sign an AHL contract when a two-way contract is definitely going to be existent when the CBA allows for it.

FearTheFlyers 08-31-2004 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester
yes, there is a big difference, but Ruzicka and his agent will have ZERO interest in signing an AHL contract. Clarkie is definitely going to offer a two-way contract, or at least attempt... not sure Ruzicka is in a position to demand a one-way contract, but he isn't going to offer him that until he knows what the rookie contracts are going to look in the new CBA world.

Clarke will not offer him a two way contract. There is no way Ruzicka is ready for the NHL.

Quote:

I'm VERY aware of the differences between the two teams, and the existence of AHL, two-way, and one-way NHL contracts in the big scheme of the world. In the current environment the only contract that Clarkie is going to offer to Ruzicka is an AHL contract, that he wouldn't be interested in. Persumably when the CBA is put in place all of these prospects that the Flyers feel are ready for the next step, specifically Carter, Richards, and Ruzicka are going to be offered contracts.
But if there's a lockout, Ruzicka has said he doesn't want to play in the AHL, and he's not ready for the NHL, I don't see where else he can play but OS.
Quote:

In the event that the CBA is the same with these players Richards and Carter can only play at the NHL so it is a moot point. However, Ruzicka CAN play for the AHL so if he were to sign with the Flyers he would have a shot at making the team(especially in the wake of Leclair and Amonte being gone), and if not could play for the Phantoms.
Like I said, Rosy has no shot of making the Flyers.

Quote:

In any event, him showing up in Owen Sound for training camp when he isn't signed by the Flyers yet(because they aren't going to sign any of these kids before the CBA is finalized) is absolutely meaningless to the issue of where Ruzicka is going to be playing next year. If the CBA is finalized tomorrow, I'm pretty convinced Clarke is going to look to get all three under contract, in which case Ruzicka WOULD be playing for the phantoms most likely if he was not to make the Flyers, because I'm sure the Flyers would rather he be playing at that level.
You're sure the Flyers would rather have him playing at that level. Really? Because I'm pretty sure he was brought over from Europe to play with Mike Stothers.
.

Jester 08-31-2004 01:04 PM

Clarke will not offer him a two way contract. There is no way Ruzicka is ready for the NHL.

fine... then he gets AHL money, which is specifically why two-way contracts exist.

But if there's a lockout, Ruzicka has said he doesn't want to play in the AHL, and he's not ready for the NHL, I don't see where else he can play but OS.

if there is a lockout, there is no CBA, which means Clarkie will not have offered him a contract. ALL of their prospects, including Richards and Carter who will both be given a LONG look at making the squad this year, are waiting on a CBA in order to get signed. Clarkie contemplated letting Pitkanen float around until this year specifically so he could have signed him under a much stricter rookie contract structure that would have limited the bonus' that Pitkanen has in his contract.

Like I said, Rosy has no shot of making the Flyers.

same was said of Williams... he got to camp and impressed. there is a depth problem at wing on this team, especially guys who could potentially light the lamp. does that mean he has a front-runner status? no. but i think a guy who had as good a year as he did last year in the OHL will get a look.

You're sure the Flyers would rather have him playing at that level. Really? Because I'm pretty sure he was brought over from Europe to play with Mike Stothers.

http://www.jeremy-roenick.com/flyersnews_summer4.htm
"What is clear is the Flyers' desire to trim their payroll and make room for rookie forwards Jeff Carter, Mike Richards or Stefan Ruzicka and goaltender Antero Niittymaki. "

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/spo...ey/9008525.htm
"Ryan Sittler was taken seventh overall in 1992 and didn't work out. By comparison, Vaclav Prospal (1993) and Patrick Sharp (2001) were taken in the third round, as was forward Stefan Ruzicka last year. And he is projected to play at least for the Phantoms next year."

He played his year with Stothers and exploded onto the N. American sized rink. You don't stagnate players at the same talent level, you keep challenging them. It doesn't make sense to leave a kid who can play against better competition both in games and in practice, get closer scrutiny from management with the Phantoms, and the Flyers have consistently shown they like to bring players through the Phantoms en route.

ALL of this is moot until a CBA is formalized, but my original point is that him showing up for training camp in Owen Sound when he has no contract with the Flyers says nothing about what his status will be with the Flyers this coming year. They aren't offering these guys contracts until there is a CBA, thus his ONLY option is to play with Owen Sound this year as of now.

stanley 08-31-2004 01:36 PM

Under the current bargaining agreement, all drafted, entry-level players MUST sign a three-year, two-way contract. There's absolutely no way around it for Ruzicka. Even if he remains unsigned and re-enters the draft, he will be subject to that clause, were the status quo to remain.

However, should this clause be changed or removed in the new agreement, all bets are off. If forced to guess at gunpoint, I would suspect that the NHLPA's primary concern is the declining salaries for its older members, and that if they'd make concessions anywhere, it would be at the expense of their younger members. It's just a hunch from the other side of the fence.

Jester 08-31-2004 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanley
However, should this clause be changed or removed in the new agreement, all bets are off. If forced to guess at gunpoint, I would suspect that the NHLPA's primary concern is the declining salaries for its older members, and that if they'd make concessions anywhere, it would be at the expense of their younger members. It's just a hunch from the other side of the fence.

rookie contracts are going to get killed in this CBA. the GM's are tired of these crazy incentive contracts, and the NHLPA can't worry about people who aren't members yet in this negotiation. which is why Clarke seriously thought about letting Pitkanen roll around to this CBA so he wouldn't have the contract he ended up with.

from a management/fiscal standpoint, Pitkanen happily wiffed on the first round of stuff for the most part, but there are still a fair amount of incentives he can hit I believe.

stanley 08-31-2004 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester
rookie contracts are going to get killed in this CBA. the GM's are tired of these crazy incentive contracts, and the NHLPA can't worry about people who aren't members yet in this negotiation.

I'm not so convinced we'll see these contracts go the way of the dodo, Jester. The current agreement has very specific guidelines for the maximum amount an entry-level player can receive in base salary, and the length of contract. GMs have to like that. However, I agree with you in principle because any earned incentives are above and beyond the base salary for players that have no vesting in the league. I'm sure organizations would be thrilled to remove ever having to negotiate an incentive again. Then again, I'm not so certain the NHLPA will give up anything, even for their rookie members. They might not insist on more benefits, but I don't know that they'll surrender anything.


Quote:

which is why Clarke seriously thought about letting Pitkanen roll around to this CBA so he wouldn't have the contract he ended up with.
I don't know, Jester. After seeing how good Pitkanen was as a 20-year-old, he seemed worth it.


Quote:

from a management/fiscal standpoint, Pitkanen happily wiffed on the first round of stuff for the most part, but there are still a fair amount of incentives he can hit I believe.
And I guess that is good news. I think he could have earned something close to $2M in incentives above his $1-odd million base salary, and as you insinuated, I remember thinking that he didn't hit many of them.

Jester 08-31-2004 02:03 PM

I don't know, Jester. After seeing how good Pitkanen was as a 20-year-old, he seemed worth it.

I agree, but clarke was definitely rumored to have been considering letting him float to this new cba to avoid that contract. pitkanen was an awesome rookie, and i'm glad we brought him up to get him moving towards being a potential force.


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