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-   -   TM or the lack of talent? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1028029)

The Black1963 11-12-2011 01:13 PM

TM or the lack of talent?
 
I know some of us blame TM for our lackluster offense and some blame the players for lack of production, so, which is it?

If you could either fire TM OR make necessary roster moves to improve our team via trades and/or promotions, which would you choose?

For me, I do believe TM is more of the problem than the lack of talent as some have suggested. However, I would go the conservative route and make a roster move i.e. promote Lokti as one of the moves before I go the drastic route and fire TM.

Poll cometh.

Jetteroheller 11-12-2011 01:18 PM

TM needs to go or any roster moves will be pointless. He has not changed his coaching style at all in the last 3+ years so i really believe there is 0 chance it will change now.

Sydor25 11-12-2011 01:20 PM

Players have already changed. Kings offense has been terrible for 3+ years. Murray and Lombardi are the constants.

Would love to hear from AEG.

The Black1963 11-12-2011 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sydor25 (Post 39325437)
Players have already changed. Kings offense has been terrible for 3+ years. Murray and Lombardi are the constants.

Would love to hear from AEG.

Our top 2 lines haven't been terrible. If anything, I think they get a pass thus far. However, our bottom six is just not producing and that's why I would go with the simple fix of inserting Lokti and making a trade here or there before firing TM.

sjmay* 11-12-2011 01:23 PM

Some reason I can't vote lol, but I would vote for a roster change before firing....

The Black1963 11-12-2011 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjmay (Post 39325579)
Some reason I can't vote lol, but I would vote for a roster change before firing....

Yeah, you need to be at least 18. ;)

Muzzinga 11-12-2011 01:27 PM

we have 9 former 20 goal scorers, 3 offensive dman, 2 of which are 40 point scorers, 2 ppg centres, a 3rd line centre that would be a 2nd line centre on a lot of teams, 4 30 goal scoring wingers, 5 50 point scoring wingers

ye, for some reason im thinking its the coach

Kurrilino 11-12-2011 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sw1tch (Post 39325685)
we have 9 former 20 goal scorers, 3 offensive dman, 2 of which are 40 point scorers, 2 ppg centres, a 3rd line centre that would be a 2nd line centre on a lot of teams, 4 30 goal scoring wingers, 5 50 point scoring wingers

ye, for some reason im thinking its the coach

This !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't know what else to say.

You can't have a more offensive team in a cap limited league.
But like i said. We could ice 20 Ovechkins without another result.
If the oppenents just have to pin you against the board or know exactly what you are doing because there is just this one way open they will shut you down.

Doing the little things right is wonderfull but not enough foe an NHL team.
It's difficult to outgrind a team that has same size speed.
Especially when they are doing the bigger things right.

johnjm22 11-12-2011 03:02 PM

It's a little bit of both, but the Kings offensive personnel is probably overrated. We basically have Kopitar and a bunch of "maybes".

null33 11-12-2011 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sydor25 (Post 39325437)
Players have already changed. Kings offense has been terrible for 3+ years. Murray and Lombardi are the constants.

Would love to hear from AEG.

Eh, GM and Coach have changed. Team is still mediocre.

AEG is the only constant.

Would love to hear from the Board of Governors.

The Black1963 11-12-2011 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnjm22 (Post 39328597)
It's a little bit of both, but the Kings offensive personnel is probably overrated. We basically have Kopitar and a bunch of "maybes".

Wow, Richards is a maybe???

OK Computer 11-12-2011 03:21 PM

I don't care how the bottom six is doing; can someone tell me how many teams have been as pathetic as us offensively while having two STUDS at 1C/2C? It's Kopitar/Richards all by themselves when we have the puck. Thrown in guys like Brown/Gagne/Williams/DD/JJ/etc and there is no reason why this team shouldn't be competent offensively.

Crosby/Malkin were surrounded by absolute scrubs and they were consistently a top 10 scoring team. Our 1-2 combo is a notch below them, but we have MUCH better support around our two star Centers. How the **** is this team so bad with the puck? You tell me, I'm spelling it out here...

Fishhead 11-12-2011 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnjm22 (Post 39328597)
It's a little bit of both, but the Kings offensive personnel is probably overrated. We basically have Kopitar and a bunch of "maybes".

With the cap it is impossible not to get a lot of 'maybes' in the top 6. Every single one of them has hit 30 goals before, they all know how to score. Sure, they aren't all in their prime, but we have solid personnel up front. I'd say we have a top-20 offense on paper, more likely top 10. Much better than 36 goals through 16 games, at any rate.

The personnel has changed, and is now not ideally suited for a tight defensive game that has been moderately successful over the last couple years. We lost one of our best bangers and one of the most responsible defensive centers in the league, both of which were in our bottom 6. The strategies need to be changed to play to the teams' strengths, and that's not happening right now.

As far as the poll, either answer could work. Either TM has to adjust or be out the door, or we need to acquire some bangers who aren't as skilled to play to the system's strengths. Getting more skill on this team will do absolutely nothing - in reality the team would be worse off.

With our strength in the back end and goal, I can't fathom why the Kings don't open it up. They have the firepower to outscore teams, then pile it on when they take chances. Right now it's like the team is trying to win a football game with a soccer squad.

KingsFan24* 11-12-2011 03:44 PM

Terry Murray destroys careers.

Whiskeypete 11-12-2011 05:03 PM

DL isn't the issue. if anything it is that he hasn't been more vocal and critical of the coaching staff. from DL to the coaches, they always talk about accountability when it comes to the players. frankly TMu has had enough talent since last year to go out and play very good hockey every night. as we know that hasn't happened, as there has been games and worse extended bouts of "WTF was that"? this comes on TMu as his job and only job is to have his guys prepared and ready every night, that isn't happening.

now look at this year and the additions made which should bolster the offense and it's the same as always. we are currently in bad stretch of WTF games for the past two weeks and it doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon.

DL has done a great job of putting in place scouts and a strong development process. he has 'likely' done a good job when it comes to the draft. i say likely because it's to early to really evaluate his picks to date. he has for the most part developed and passed through the last of the Taylor regime's draft picks. many are critical of how he has handled FA's-what he has missed, what he's signed.

i wanted him to sign Kovalchuk as much as the next fan. at the same time i think he did the right thing in not biting on the $100M contract, that would have killed the long-term possibilities of the club. in the day of the salary cap you just can't bite off a contract like that and keep other talent around. the only chance you will have is to hit every draft pick and cheap talent having career years to be successful.

it's time for DL to start holding Murray and his coaches accountable. i think Murray has passed the buck for to long to the players. not once has he stood there and said he or his asst's weren't prepared or failed to get the team ready.

sjmay* 11-12-2011 05:12 PM

I don't think it's that the team isn't prepared. I think the EDM game was brutal, but I absolutely loved the way EDM played, so meh, the next two games after that were pretty solid, the game against SJ was good from what I saw, I missed the first period, even the game against VAN seemed good, but I missed the first two periods,

But they are playing well, generating offense, and I think it will fall into place sooner rather than later...

Losing Penner might actually hurt depending on who they call up in his place..

no name 11-12-2011 05:28 PM

Honestly, I believe modern day hockey doesn't have a place for Murray. He isn't flexible enough. I've supported him for longer than most but I've seen enough to know that he isn't working due to his coaching style and his inability to be flexible enough to adjust to the style players the Kings have had.

funky 11-12-2011 05:48 PM

I look at it this way to gauge if its players or Murray

1. Compare players to their position
2. Compare players to where they would fit on other teams
3

1C - Kopitar - Elite, 2 way, skilled center - fits #1 center on any team
2C - Richards - As far as second line centers he is one of the top in the league.
3C - Stoll - good on face offs, checks, above average offence in the 3C role
4C - Lewis - Energy player with speed. Has abilities and does well in limited role
HM - Loktionov - next in line, could be 3C with an offensive minded coach

*May be the best group of centerman in the league. All can create huge offence for their given roles. We are spoiled to have this depth in the middle. IMO being held back by Murray's uncreative defense first system. Let these boys role.

1RW - Williams - compliments #11 well, close to PPG if healthy. no star but able
2RW - Brown - great 2nd line second tier power forward. 30 goals, 300 hits = great
3RW - Parse - not a fit in TM's system. Offensive talent to play offensive 3 RW role
4RW - Westgarth -enforcer counted on for safegaurding, not scoring - part timer
4RW - Richardson - all roound speed and hustle, offensively able in bottom 6

* Williams is no superstar, but he compliments our superstar. Every position is filled with a player (save Westgarth), that is above average offensively in their position. Any team in the league would cherish Brown who most of us are to hard on.

1LW -Penner- oil and water in TM's system,scored in past when fat, coach vs player?
2LW -Gagne - love him, 2 way guy that has scored 40 in past, stiffeled in this system
3LW - Moreau - our first under average position. he's outta place on 3rd
4LW - Clifford - paying his dues, future 3rd liner, great 4th liner. darkhorse

*When the season started our darkhorse was Penner. Dude got in shape, is big, skilled and should have meshed in an offensive role with Kopitar. The guy does rely on reflex and skill. I truely believe Murrays system is the problem. Gagne is back and healthy, I love seeing him play, but his game is based around speed and creativity, something Murrays system doesn't have. Our problem area for the year should have been the 3rd line LW, something that a trade could address, instead it has become a whole teams futility to put the puck in the net.

1D - Doughty - A speed a skill guy that would thrive if let loose in an offensive and creative offensive system. Most teams would drool to have a guy in the back end like this, what do we do, waste his puck rushing and distribution talent.
2D - Johnson - Diamond in the rough, TM has his head to filled with not making a mistake, taken the creativity out of him. When he starts galloping from his end, things start to happen, sometimes negatively I admit, but other times he backs a 5 player team into their end with his speed and tenasity. Let the reins off and let him evolve
3D - Mitchell - great shutdown guy, plays his role as a saftey cushion for DD. Has an under rated big shot from the point and is fast enough to recover and get back.
4D - Scuderi - JJ's Mitchell. Solid, shutdown guy, takes care of home plate
5D - Greene - our MR Nasty - may be the only player that would suffer in an offensive based system to to lack of skill.
6D- Martinez- the dudes got underated offensive skills, I believe he would thrive in a more uptempo, hit the zone with crisp passes and speed system.
7D - Voynov - yes I included him because he is here to stay in near future, oozes offence, lets hope the system is changed so he can come in an play his style

* Doughty, JJ, Voynov and Martinez - we have a awesomely talented core of offensively gifted players that would help run an offensive based system. We have two players in Scuderi and Mitchell that are defensive stalwarts and would protect the pinching and rushing. We have the perfest blend of Dman to support an offensive attack system.

Quick - this guy plays better when relying on his reflex and pure atheletic abilities. Think of a Grant Fuhr type on the 80's Oilers - he has that type of ability. He is the main reason we can back away from the defensive, boring, uncreative, dump and chase, trap system.

We have guys that have either proven in the past, or have been projected by many exports to be offensive forces. Why has it failed. In my opinion it is Murray's un creative system. Not many teams can boast a three headed dragon in Kopitar, Doughty and Richards with an goalie nearing the Elite ranks and a support cast including Gagne, Brown, Johnson, and even Williams. We have the skill, we just need a skipper that will let the guys play to thier abilities instead of a clipboard.

Vamos Rafa 11-12-2011 06:52 PM

When will we ever have a 100-point player again? Kopi always had that potential.

Not gonna happen under TM.

Fishhead 11-12-2011 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no name (Post 39332577)
Honestly, I believe modern day hockey doesn't have a place for Murray. He isn't flexible enough. I've supported him for longer than most but I've seen enough to know that he isn't working due to his coaching style and his inability to be flexible enough to adjust to the style players the Kings have had.

Me too.

It's not that I don't like him, heck, I want nothing more than him to succeed. I just don't see it though. His understanding of system play and defense is great. I'd put him in the top 5 coaches in that area, undoubtedly. His lack of adaptability is his Achilles heel. Ever wonder why teams stack up across the neutral zone every single game with us? I watch enough games on CI to know it's not happening to all the teams in the league. It's because other teams know that we cannot adjust to it.

jonrazor12 11-13-2011 12:58 AM

I dont agree with any of the options above. I believe the problem is the system. The system is implemented by the coach. So its the coach's fault for the kings inability to generate the offense when needed. They have the defensive side of the game down. I look at a team like Washington and see a team that can play a defensive minded game first but transform to a offensive monster when needed. Kings have just as much offensive talent as Washington but the system restricts the King's star players to create scoring chances. I heard that TM is the oldest coach in the league. His strategies are old and predictable. He needs to figure out a way to be more creative. He also needs to find a way to get more out of his players. Guys like Penner, Stoll, Lewis, and Clifford are capable of so much more. Some responsibility falls on these player's shoulders for there less than stellar performances but imo the majority of the responsibility belongs to TM. Its a little too early to fire TM now, but if he cant find a way to fix things before the all star break then a coaching change will be necessary.

SuperAlmeida 11-13-2011 11:28 AM

I think we should trade for Alexander Semin. Something like Stoll + (maybe veteran D) for Semin +. Both contracts expire next summer.

Semin only played 3,25 in the last period yesterday.

Semin-Kopitar-Williams
Gagne-Richards-Brown
Penner-Loktionov-Richardson/Lewis/Moreau
Clifford-Fraser/Lewis-Lewis/Westgarth

We could also try to trade Penner away.

Other, cheaper, possibilities could be Pyatt or Korpikoski from the Phoenix Coyotes...

Gagne-Kopitar-Williams
Pyatt-Richards-Brown
Penner-Loktionov-Richardson/Lewis/Moreau
Clifford-Fraser-Lewis/Westgarth

Ollie Weeks 11-13-2011 11:39 AM

I want to see a full season of this roster before I make my decision. Murray's been increasingly getting on my nerves the last couple years, but I think this can still work.

The Tikkanen 11-13-2011 11:40 AM

Who knew Colin Fraser was the answer to the question?

Nex06 11-13-2011 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lars H (Post 39328659)
Eh, GM and Coach have changed. Team is still mediocre.

AEG is the only constant.

Would love to hear from the Board of Governors.

Would be great if the owner changed and it would stay the same. Then moving team to Philadelphia and when that doesn't help, moving to Austrian hockey league, plenty of goals there. Who needs Stanley cup, when you can win this every season?

http://cdn.nhl.com/images/wire/ap/20...24_185x185.jpg


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