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HCH 11-13-2011 09:45 AM

Trade Emelin?
 
Do you ever get that gut feeling that a player's fate with the team is doomed?

I have. More than once. It happened with O'Byrne and D'Agostini. It also happened with Sergei Kostitsyn and Michael Ryder.

I don't mean this as a commentary on a player's ability or whether the decision made by the team was bad or good. But sometimes when you sit back and look at the big picture do you think, "this just doesn't seem to be working out."

We seem to have had more than our fair share of those kinds of situations with younger players and I get the uneasy feeling it is happening with Emelin. I don't know what the solution is, either. The picture on defense is going to become even more complicated when Campoli returns and if Markov returns. Right now the team is enjoying a modicum of success.

From Emelin's point of view, he probably doesn't consider himself a raw rookie. Far from it in fact. He probably has more high level international experience than anyone on the current roster except for Spacek. He is older than Weber or Subban and the same age as Diaz. In fact he is only a year and a half younger than Gorges and Campoli.

Like any young player in the prime of his career he is probably chomping at the bit to get on the ice and show what he can do. Every player knows they have to pay their dues but it is unlikely that they know exactly what those dues might be. Is it playing on the bottom pairing, is it playing every second game, is it sitting out for long stretches or is it plying your trade in the AHL?

You can say all you want about sucking it up but all players have some pride in their abilities and the desire to display that ability. It is why they have made it this far. When they are not playing you can see it in their demeanour. It is a natural human reaction.

Hopefully I am wrong but the Emelin situation has all the earmarks of another discontented player in the making. And discontented players are not good for team chemistry. There are two ways to get around that situation. One is to work with the player, throw him a bone once in a while and show you have some confidence in him. The other, is the approach that the Habs have been taking. Simply remove the player from the situation.

Does Emelin have enough talent to consider the first approach. I think he does, others probably think he doesn't. Whichever it is, I have that sinking feeling that things are not going to work out for him in Montreal. Hopefully I am wrong.

Andy 11-13-2011 09:50 AM

why? it's been 16 games. It's not like he's been on the team for 4 years and has never played. He'll get his chances, you guys need to be patient.

HCH 11-13-2011 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 39368975)
why? it's been 16 games. It's not like he's been on the team for 4 years and has never played. He'll get his chances, you guys need to be patient.

I think you missed the entire point of my post.

Jigger77 11-13-2011 10:06 AM

What do you expect to get for him though? I don't see him getting much more than a late draft pick atm. Why not just keep him around and let him learn English and get more comfortable out there? I wish he'd accept a stint in Hamilton. Go dominate down there instead of not playing at all.

Le Tricolore 11-13-2011 10:06 AM

Gomez and Emelin for Crosby.

BLONG7 11-13-2011 10:07 AM

I hope they don't trade him, he has some sandpaper to his game, something we are sorely lacking...I would rather pkg Diaz and another body, and trade him...he is too soft on the puck, and in front of his own net...can't for the life of me, understand why JM does not see this???

Andy 11-13-2011 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HCH (Post 39369239)
I think you missed the entire point of my post.

No I haven't. Just wait and let things play out, who knows by the end of the season maybe he plays so well to beat out Weber for a roster spot. The difference between the O'byrnes and D'agostinis were that these guys went in and out of the lineup for 2-3 years and weren't consistent enough to maintain a spot. Yemelin has been here for not even 2 months yet, wait and see what happens.

dcyhabs 11-13-2011 10:11 AM

I get the impression Martin (like Carbonneau) sticks with his initial judgement of players no matter what the player does afterward. He did not like Latendresse, Sergei, D'agostini, Pouliot... In a similar vein he likes veterans, Darche, Pyatt and others. Production does not seem to matter, though defensive errors do appear to impact his confidence in players.

I suspect the ability to handle pressure is the main criteria for Martin, and that he does not believe players who can't deal with him can succeed in the playoffs. I guess we will find out once we see what Sergei, O'Byrne and friends do when they get there.

I agree that Martin has no confidence in Emelin, and Martin rarely gains confidence in a player after his first impression is negative. O'Byrne is the poster child for this one, he had some brutal plays and never got steady playing time afterward even when he was playing well. He went to Colorado and became a reliable, physical D-man.

I think Gauthier needs to have a "burn another asset for nothing and you're fired" talk with Martin. A second option would be playing Emelin with Markov if Markov is ever healthy, inflating his stats, then trading him.

Martin burns assets, and using Pleks on the point has cost 3-4 wins so far, but he does work out defense. I'm still trying to decide if he succeeds in protecting weak D-men or if he has strong D-men that he does not use well. His faith in MAB seems to be justified at this point.

macavoy 11-13-2011 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jigger77 (Post 39369317)
What do you expect to get for him though? I don't see him getting much more than a late draft pick atm. Why not just keep him around and let him learn English and get more comfortable out there? I wish he'd accept a stint in Hamilton. Go dominate down there instead of not playing at all.

I remember reading in September I think that when he signed, he agreed to something like 15-20 games in Hamilton.

I kind of wish, they'd give him 5 games just to get ice time and let him play 20-25 minutes without fear of making mistakes. You can't afford to let someone learn the game at the NHL level when your fighting for a playoff spot.

Captain Saku 11-13-2011 10:15 AM

Club's position right now is not helping his situation. Every game is important, there is no room for experiences as the team needs to catch up on the points they lost at the beginning of the season and JM sees Diaz as the better defenseman. I can't say I disagree because Emelin didn't show yet he's better than Diaz.

Andy 11-13-2011 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Saku (Post 39369559)
Club's position right now is not helping his situation. Every game is important, there is no room for experiences as the team needs to catch up on the points they lost at the beginning of the season and JM sees Diaz as the better defenseman. I can't say I disagree because Emelin didn't show yet he's better than Diaz.

This is how I see it. Yemelin will get his shot and when he does he needs to prove that he belongs in the lineup over the other people.

Munchausen 11-13-2011 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLONG7 (Post 39369363)
I hope they don't trade him, he has some sandpaper to his game, something we are sorely lacking...I would rather pkg Diaz and another body, and trade him...he is too soft on the puck, and in front of his own net...can't for the life of me, understand why JM does not see this???

Martin has never been about aggression. He likes his players smart and well positioned. Aggressive hitting machines are usually the exact opposite. That's why we have so few, that's why Moen turned into a much softer version of his former self. That's also probably why we haven't seen PK go for the big hit in a while and why O'Byrne never got the confidence from the coach. Also why Emelin will likely suffer the same fate. It's all very predictable.

The only thing that could save Emelin right now is if he can demonstrate he can play mistake free positional hockey, which he hasn't done yet. It's a bit unfair to him because his game is about aggression and he's clearly being held back, just like all the other I'm sure very frustrated physical players that have played for Martin in the past.

As long as Martin coaches this team, there will not be an overly aggressive player on it, especially a young unproven one, simply because it goes against what he preaches.

Jigger77 11-13-2011 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcyhabs (Post 39369495)
I get the impression Martin (like Carbonneau) sticks with his initial judgement of players no matter what the player does afterward. He did not like Latendresse, Sergei, D'agostini, Pouliot... In a similar vein he likes veterans, Darche, Pyatt and others. Production does not seem to matter, though defensive errors do appear to impact his confidence in players.

I suspect the ability to handle pressure is the main criteria for Martin, and that he does not believe players who can't deal with him can succeed in the playoffs. I guess we will find out once we see what Sergei, O'Byrne and friends do when they get there.

I agree that Martin has no confidence in Emelin, and Martin rarely gains confidence in a player after his first impression is negative. O'Byrne is the poster child for this one, he had some brutal plays and never got steady playing time afterward even when he was playing well. He went to Colorado and became a reliable, physical D-man.

I think Gauthier needs to have a "burn another asset for nothing and you're fired" talk with Martin. A second option would be playing Emelin with Markov if Markov is ever healthy, inflating his stats, then trading him.

Martin burns assets, and using Pleks on the point has cost 3-4 wins so far, but he does work out defense. I'm still trying to decide if he succeeds in protecting weak D-men or if he has strong D-men that he does not use well. His faith in MAB seems to be justified at this point.

Oh please. What have any of these players really done since leaving. D'agostini has 6 points. He has a good +/- but players like him are everywhere in the NHL. Sergei seems to still have an attitude problem, which is why he was traded in the first place.
Ryan O'byrne is the less used of all of Colorado's defensemen. He's their number 6 and is a -2 on the year. Latendresse I didn't like to see leave but he didn't fit in our speedy forwards group and the vision they had for the team. Personally I wouldn't want him back right now. You can take any NHL team and look at players they let go and you're going to find some they probably could have kept.

None of these guys did anything remotely spectacular and didn't play in the playoffs for the most part.

Pouliot? really? :laugh:

Mathieu Darche has the least icetime of ANY of our regular players. Last night he was not used on the PP either. Same with Pyatt last year. He averaged about 10 minutes icetime per game.

Give me a break.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchausen (Post 39369793)
Martin has never been about aggression. He likes his players smart and well positioned. Aggressive hitting machines are usually the exact opposite. That's why we have so few, that's why Moen turned into a much softer version of his former self. That's also probably why we haven't seen PK go for the big hit in a while and why O'Byrne never got the confidence from the coach. Also why Emelin will likely suffer the same fate. It's all very predictable.

The only thing that could save Emelin right now is if he can demonstrate he can play mistake free positional hockey, which he hasn't done yet. It's a bit unfair to him because his game is about aggression and he's clearly being held back, just like all the other I'm sure very frustrated physical players that have played for Martin in the past.

As long as Martin coaches this team, there will not be an overly aggressive player on it, especially a young unproven one, simply because it goes against what he preaches.

I'll take a Travis Moen who is a +7 and tied for second in goals on the team over a Travis Moen who is out of position to make big hits any day of the week.

ruski17 11-13-2011 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchausen (Post 39369793)
Martin has never been about aggression. He likes his players smart and well positioned. Aggressive hitting machines are usually the exact opposite. That's why we have so few, that's why Moen turned into a much softer version of his former self. That's also probably why we haven't seen PK go for the big hit in a while and why O'Byrne never got the confidence from the coach. Also why Emelin will likely suffer the same fate. It's all very predictable.

The only thing that could save Emelin right now is if he can demonstrate he can play mistake free positional hockey, which he hasn't done yet. It's a bit unfair to him because his game is about aggression and he's clearly being held back, just like all the other I'm sure very frustrated physical players that have played for Martin in the past.

As long as Martin coaches this team, there will not be an overly aggressive player on it, especially a young unproven one, simply because it goes against what he preaches.

This!

Emelin will play his few games this year, maybe an injury will occur and he will replace that player and show how good he really is. The problem is that our defencemen are playing well right now so we have no need to switch it up. Weber is arguably our best defenceman this year. Diaz is having a solid year considering this is his first year in the NHL, Gill is essential to the penalty kill, Subban is maybe not scoring as much, but he is playing good hockey, Gorges is also playing well and Spacek is a good veteran that we need in the lineup alongside Gill to help mentor the newer guys.

Once Campoli and Markov returns, I expect there to be a trade because of the logjam on defence and hopefully it will be an offensive defenceman is markov returns to his full form because having Weber, Diaz, Subban, Campoli and Markov is too repetitive.

Kriss E 11-13-2011 10:44 AM

You have a feeling things aren't working out because he's our 7th Dman?
The guy deserves some AHL seasoning. He could be a regular NHLer at some point, I have no doubt about it, but he does take some bad decisions and is out of position at times.
I don't see us trading him at all. I think he'll be sent to AHL at the worst case. Hopefully he won't bolt back to Russia if that happens.

Munchausen 11-13-2011 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jigger77 (Post 39369895)
I'll take a Travis Moen who is a +7 and tied for second in goals on the team over a Travis Moen who is out of position to make big hits any day of the week.

And yet the same Moen had a putrid year last season, playing an uninspired, generic brand of hockey, finishing the year with 16pts and a -4. Prior to that? 19pts and a -2 and a bit of a better effort. Sadly I think Moen's energy surge has more to do with the contract year than Martin's instructions.

Playing physical is neither right or wrong, it's a philosophy, and it's not ours, so I think all I'm saying is let's stop acting surprised or outraged when a physical player has difficulty redefining his game under our current coach and system, it's going to happen, again.

le_sean 11-13-2011 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchausen (Post 39369793)
Martin has never been about aggression. He likes his players smart and well positioned. Aggressive hitting machines are usually the exact opposite. That's why we have so few, that's why Moen turned into a much softer version of his former self. That's also probably why we haven't seen PK go for the big hit in a while and why O'Byrne never got the confidence from the coach. Also why Emelin will likely suffer the same fate. It's all very predictable.

The only thing that could save Emelin right now is if he can demonstrate he can play mistake free positional hockey, which he hasn't done yet. It's a bit unfair to him because his game is about aggression and he's clearly being held back, just like all the other I'm sure very frustrated physical players that have played for Martin in the past.

As long as Martin coaches this team, there will not be an overly aggressive player on it, especially a young unproven one, simply because it goes against what he preaches.

Martin helped develop some of the best players in the NHL. I'll trust him if he doesn't think Emelin has it.

Look at PK, he turned into a completely different defenceman in one season. His head got too big, he tried too much, got benched and now is the Habs best all-around defenceman. Pacioretty and Eller are also examples of players he came around to liking. If a player shows him he deserves a shot, he'll get it.

Monctonscout 11-13-2011 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 39368975)
why? it's been 16 games. It's not like he's been on the team for 4 years and has never played. He'll get his chances, you guys need to be patient.

I don't disagree with your post...but with JM it seems like if he isn't a fan of your style game you are on the way out sooner or later. I see a lot of O'ryne in Emelin's situstion...though Emelin brings a lot more upside.

I would hope that they work on his positionning and gradually work him in and by season's end I can see him clearly being ahead of Spacek Campoli and Gill...but JM has a tendency of riding his favories and not having a lot of patience for young players.

habitue* 11-13-2011 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 39368975)
why? it's been 16 games. It's not like he's been on the team for 4 years and has never played. He'll get his chances, you guys need to be patient.

you're right.

Panic button pushed all the way here about Yemelin.

The team is winning. That is the bottom line.

Yemelin has not proved anything more at NHL level than any of the 6 others in front of him. Next year with Gill, Spacek, Campoli gone, he will have plenty of space for him . As you're writing, there is ONLY 16 games played in this season.

habitue* 11-13-2011 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carey Price (Post 39372261)
I don't disagree with your post...but with JM it seems like if he isn't a fan of your style game you are on the way out sooner or later. I see a lot of O'ryne in Emelin's situstion...though Emelin brings a lot more upside.

I would hope that they work on his positionning and gradually work him in and by season's end I can see him clearly being ahead of Spacek Campoli and Gill...but JM has a tendency of riding his favories and not having a lot of patience for young players.

...for young players who are not learning fast enough.

Andy 11-13-2011 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habitue (Post 39372285)
you're right.

Panic button pushed all the way here about Yemelin.

The team is winning. That is the bottom line.

Yemelin has not proved anything more at NHL level than any of the 6 others in front of him. Next year with Gill, Spacek, Campoli gone, he will have plenty of space for him . As you're writing, there is ONLY 16 games played in this season.

The bold is well put. I don't think it anything to do with Martin not liking Yemelin and more so that he hasn't been good enough and that the team has actually been playing well. 6-2-0 since the firing, 6-3-1 in their last 10.

Young Gun 11-13-2011 11:51 AM

They must have known he was an aggressive player when they signed him, why **** with the kid if they don't want him to be an aggressive player. There is nothing between those big ****in ears of jm only defensive, put the fans asleep, hockey. can wait to see him gone the loser

Andy 11-13-2011 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le_sean (Post 39372221)
Martin helped develop some of the best players in the NHL. I'll trust him if he doesn't think Emelin has it.

Look at PK, he turned into a completely different defenceman in one season. His head got too big, he tried too much, got benched and now is the Habs best all-around defenceman. Pacioretty and Eller are also examples of players he came around to liking. If a player shows him he deserves a shot, he'll get it.

You could also include Desharnais and Weber in the bunch as well.

For every Sergei, D'agostini, O'byrne and Latendresse there has been a Subban, Eller, Pacioretty, Desharnais, Weber and maybe you could include Diaz and White.

Is he harsh on the rookies...yes, there is no question they have a very short leash, but to say he ruins development is false. Does he kill confidence? Yup, but so far the ones that have developed with Martin have some pretty strong characters.

habitue* 11-13-2011 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young Gun (Post 39372415)
They must have known he was an aggressive player when they signed him, why **** with the kid if they don't want him to be an aggressive player. There is nothing between those big ****in ears of jm only defensive, put the fans asleep, hockey. can wait to see him gone the loser

Please check the results of the last two games on the road... Bottom line: WINS.

As for the fans falling asleep, they should cut the beer a bit.

Andy 11-13-2011 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carey Price (Post 39372261)
I don't disagree with your post...but with JM it seems like if he isn't a fan of your style game you are on the way out sooner or later. I see a lot of O'ryne in Emelin's situstion...though Emelin brings a lot more upside.

I would hope that they work on his positionning and gradually work him in and by season's end I can see him clearly being ahead of Spacek Campoli and Gill...but JM has a tendency of riding his favories and not having a lot of patience for young players.

I don't think it has to do with anything with being a fan of the style of play. Martin emphasizes positioning. Yemelin's positioning has been questionable in almost every game he has played in. He just simply wasn't play well and I don't see how this gets painted as Martin not liking a style of a player.


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