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-   -   David Poile: Love him? Hate him? Talk Here (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1037179)

TMI 11-23-2011 02:12 PM

David Poile: Love him? Hate him? Talk Here
 
Since this is one of the most popular, if not the most popular, debates among Predators fans, I decided to sticky a thread for David Poile discussion. Put all of your feelings, good, bad or indifferent, in this thread so that we can keep other discussions on point for those who have no desire to participate.

I Will Son 11-23-2011 02:24 PM

Love him, I hate him at times cause I dont understand some of his decisions... But hes done more good than bad, if it werent for him and Trotz we wouldnt be here.

Joe T Choker 11-23-2011 02:48 PM

I think he's been too conservative over the course of his career ...

Pros: Sullivan, Kariya, Kostitsyn (D & Goalies)

Cons: Forwards as a whole ... eeerrr Pickard over Eberle ... yeah okay ... where is Chet today ? ... ECHL right ? ... :rant: *bangs Poile's head against the wall*

Soundgarden 11-23-2011 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Will Son (Post 39851301)
Love him, I hate him at times cause I dont understand some of his decisions... But hes done more good than bad, if it werent for him and Trotz we wouldnt be here.

I agree with this. He knows how to make good safe decisions, even if I don't agree with some of them.

For me it's a love/hate thing, however I feel this year is a make or break year for him with Suter and Weber needing to be re-signed, but I'm confident he can do it. If we have another Scott Stevens situation on our hands, he may have to go though.

Like many have said, he sure as hell knows how to build a team, and keep them competitive, but I think we still have to find out if he can build a Stanley Cup contender.

Drake744 11-23-2011 02:49 PM

He's awesome and is a victim of his own success. We are viewed around the league as the only successful southern team, and one of the most successful expansion teams as a whole. Thanks in huge part to Poile. Our fans don't know what it's like to be run by a guy who isn't good at it, so the things we complain about are often relatively small issues.

token grinder 11-23-2011 02:53 PM

I think if you point out first round errors in judgement, you have to point out smith, erat, rinne, and hornquist were all 4th round picks or later.

Iron Duke 11-23-2011 04:48 PM

From the perspective of a long-time hockey fan converted to Predsdom, I love him. He has been a big reason for this franchise being one of the most successful (in terms of regular season wins) teams in the league for over a decade now.

His picks are conservative and unsexy. I will almost guarantee a 1st round defenseman, goalie or two-way forward, regardless of where we draft this year. But for all its faults, that method has produced a team that has been competitive year after year, allowed for financial stability, and has enabled the franchise to weather the loss of quality players without missing a beat.

All fanbases can point to picks they'd rather have back (the Kings had THREE 1sts in that stellar '03 draft, and wound up with Dustin Brown, Brian Boyle, and Jeff Tambellini...imagine adding Getzlaf, Loui Eriksson and Patrice Bergeron or Shea Weber to that team instead!). But considering that, not many fans follow an organization that has so consistently developed their talent like the Preds.

PredsV82 11-23-2011 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoarding Assets (Post 39852311)
I think he's been too conservative over the course of his career ...

Pros: Sullivan, Kariya, Kostitsyn (D & Goalies)

Cons: Forwards as a whole ... eeerrr Pickard over Eberle ... yeah okay ... where is Chet today ? ... ECHL right ? ... :rant: *bangs Poile's head against the wall*

seriously??

every draft has guys that got "missed"

how many GMs want to kick themselves for passing on Rinne not once but SEVEN TIMES EACH????

dulzhok 11-23-2011 06:21 PM

Love his ability to create a 'competitive' team.

Hate his inability to create a cup contender, at least so far in his 20+ year career.

But that's what you get when you play it safe-- you don't fail, but you don't have huge success either.

dulzhok 11-23-2011 06:24 PM

As for this thread, the premise is similar to writing a book about Apple, but only giving Steve Jobs a couple pages...

Drake744 11-23-2011 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dulzhok (Post 39860541)
Love his ability to create a 'competitive' team.

Hate his inability to create a cup contender, at least so far in his 20+ year career.

But that's what you get when you play it safe-- you don't fail, but you don't have huge success either.

It's a whooooole lot easier to create a cup contender when you've got money to play with, and we really haven't.....ever. It'll be interesting to see what he does if the new ownership is sincere in their saying that they want to be a 'close to the cap' team.

barrytrotzsneck 11-23-2011 06:29 PM

A very good GM over the course of his career at icing competitive, consistent teams.

The red X is no Stanley Cup appearances in his tenure, and only one conference final. Question mark next to his name will always say, "Can he get over the hump?" Has struggled throughout his career with drafting offensive talent, but has been a beast at picking d-men and goalies. Name is still cursed in Washington for not only losing Scott Stevens, but picking a series of total misses with the compensatory picks.

I do think that Trotz probably deserves more credit for where we are and how long we've been there, but I'll give him his due.

But all in all, it could have been much worse for us.

Top 6 Spaling 11-23-2011 06:40 PM

Love him. He makes some dumb moves, sure, but so does everyone else.

The one thing that bugs me is every pegging the draft on him. Does he have final decision? maybe. But we pay ALOT of scouts, and he can only go off what they tell him. He isn't in the field looking at guys very often,so it's more on his scouts that we find guys like Rinne and Hornqvist, but miss guys like Eberle. I would say he is 20% responsible for the draft, and he gets waaaay more credit/blame.

Iron Duke 11-23-2011 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake744 (Post 39860981)
It's a whooooole lot easier to create a cup contender when you've got money to play with, and we really haven't.....ever. It'll be interesting to see what he does if the new ownership is sincere in their saying that they want to be a 'close to the cap' team.

I agree, and yet it's more than that. There is no specific formula, and no tried and true method to creating a cup contender. Look at the teams with $$ to burn, like Toronto, the Rangers, even a team like the Flyers. For all the spending they've done, all the free agents brought in, all the trades made, there's 1 Cup between them over the past 3 decades.

I've always seen Poile as someone who wants to follow a team more like Detroit, who, despite also being a heavy spender traditionally, owes their success as much to strong drafting, player development and being able to plug the right player into their system. By and large, even without a lot of playoff success, I think Poile has done that.

TMI 11-23-2011 06:47 PM

I added a poll in case some people have an opinion, but don't want to post.

Iron Duke 11-23-2011 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopreds9 (Post 39862849)
Love him. He makes some dumb moves, sure, but so does everyone else.

The one thing that bugs me is every pegging the draft on him. Does he have final decision? maybe. But we pay ALOT of scouts, and he can only go off what they tell him. He isn't in the field looking at guys very often,so it's more on his scouts that we find guys like Rinne and Hornqvist, but miss guys like Eberle. I would say he is 20% responsible for the draft, and he gets waaaay more credit/blame.

Despite the science they are today, compared to say 20 years ago, drafts still are largely crapshoots. There's a reason why Eberle was passed on 21 times before being selected by the Oilers, and while he has thus far proven to be probably one of the top 5 players in that draft, it is still way too early too pass judgment. If he goes the Sam Gagner route next season and beyond, or proves incapable of shaking the injury bug, passing on him won't look so bad. That said, judging drafts too harshly in hindsight seems, to me, a futile and painful exercise that a fan of no team will ever be content with.

Even a GM like Ken Holland is only so successful at the draft. The key is having quality scouts and in being willing to trust their judgment at the table. More often than not, Poile seems to be on the right side of that proposition.

dulzhok 11-23-2011 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake744 (Post 39860981)
It's a whooooole lot easier to create a cup contender when you've got money to play with

Poile's 'play it safe' mentality extends far beyond budget constraints-- draft pick tendencies, trading tendencies, rarely making significant changes, and (include any aspect of hockey operation here).

Drake744 11-23-2011 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dulzhok (Post 39867271)
Poile's 'play it safe' mentality extends far beyond budget constraints-- draft pick tendencies, trading tendencies, rarely making significant changes, and (include any aspect of hockey operation here).

And what do we have to show for it? Playoffs 6 of the last 7 years. Yes we've lost 5 of those 6 in the first round, but I seriously doubt all six of those are on Poile. We were the 7 or 8 seed half of those seasons and let's face it, the 7 and 8 seeds very rarely advance. The other years we played San Jose, who are the worst possible team matchup-wise for us. Should we have won once or twice? Maybe. I mean what if Erat didn't screw up Game 5 in 2010 at Chicago. What if Kane didn't tie that game with 13 seconds left, we took a 3-2 lead, and advanced to the second round? What if we...say..... made the third round in 07? Would that be forgotten by now and the negativity be pretty much the same?

Aside from "winning the Cup", the goal is to make the postseason and give yourself a shot, and only two other teams besides us have done that as often as us since 2004. It could be waaaaaay worse for us from where I'm sitting. Could it be better? Sure. But do I think Poile needs to shake things up or go? Nope

TMI 11-23-2011 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dulzhok (Post 39867271)
Poile's 'play it safe' mentality extends far beyond budget constraints-- draft pick tendencies, trading tendencies, rarely making significant changes, and (include any aspect of hockey operation here).

Poile does tend to play it safe, but I don't think that quite refutes Drake's assertion that it is a lot easier (or a lot more likely) to build a cup contender when you are able to spend to the cap, like the rest of the cup contenders.

Let's not forget that the biggest splash of a season the team has ever (personnel-wise) had was followed up immediately with a fire sale, the sale of the team, and a relocation scare. I'm not harping on those things to give Poile the excuse to continue on as normal, but those situations do make luring free agents a lot harder. Big name players with multiple suitors will likely mark a team that is unstable off of his list of potential future homes. When you aren't sure if the team will stay put you aren't likely to sign a NTC/NMC. If you aren't sure if the team will trade you at the first sign of financial instability you don't want to exist without the NTC/NMC.

Conversely, the most success the team has had in the post-season came during a year that it spent to the mid-point and its big move was Fisher. So I guess that does put a bit of a dent in the "money argument", if only a bit of one.


Just some other things to consider

dulzhok 11-23-2011 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake744 (Post 39870779)
And what do we have to show for it? Playoffs 6 of the last 7 years. Yes we've lost 5 of those 6 in the first round, but I seriously doubt all six of those are on Poile. We were the 7 or 8 seed half of those seasons and let's face it, the 7 and 8 seeds very rarely advance.

Getting to the playoffs is good, but over half the teams in the NHL make it. Still, making the playoffs 6 of 7 years is an accomplishment, especially with the change in ownership.

If you want to be 'competitive' but unlikely 'great', Poile is your guy. He holds the NHL record for 1st round exits from the research I've done. Someone can correct me if they find someone else...

His best 2 signings were Trotz and Korn.

gopreds19 11-24-2011 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by token grinder (Post 39852539)
I think if you point out first round errors in judgement, you have to point out smith, erat, rinne, and hornquist were all 4th round picks or later.

All GMs have their fare share of lightening in a bottle picks who develop into better players than their draft position indicates. It's sort of a crapshoot that late.

If you're arguing Poile has more than the average GM, I guess I can't really argue because I don't follow the late round picks of other teams that much. But for example, Detroit has several players drafted late who are superstars.

It's not so much that Poile has picked badly early, it's that he hasn't even tried. The Pikard type picks end up as throw away picks.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake744 (Post 39860981)
It's a whooooole lot easier to create a cup contender when you've got money to play with, and we really haven't.....ever. It'll be interesting to see what he does if the new ownership is sincere in their saying that they want to be a 'close to the cap' team.

You don't need a budget to draft. If we're ever going to compete for a Stanley Cup, it has to be with young, skilled players who you can get early in the draft. Poile never goes after them, instead opting with grinders and lunch pail types, smurf defensemen, and goalies who never end up helping us.

Iron Duke 11-24-2011 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopreds19 (Post 39896487)

You don't need a budget to draft. If we're ever going to compete for a Stanley Cup, it has to be with young, skilled players who you can get early in the draft. Poile never goes after them, instead opting with grinders and lunch pail types, smurf defensemen, and goalies who never end up helping us.

In the past 10 years, Poile has drafted exactly 1 'smurf' defenseman and 2 grinding, lunchpail types in the first 2 rounds.

Sure, you don't need a budget to draft, but you DO need a budget to eventually fit all those players under contract, unless you're content to see those young, skilled players fly off for nothing in free agency every year. Shoot, look at how much 25 pt Joel Ward (ok, ok, 30) was asking for this off-season!

Drake744 11-24-2011 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dulzhok (Post 39885389)
Getting to the playoffs is good, but over half the teams in the NHL make it. Still, making the playoffs 6 of 7 years is an accomplishment, especially with the change in ownership.

If you want to be 'competitive' but unlikely 'great', Poile is your guy. He holds the NHL record for 1st round exits from the research I've done. Someone can correct me if they find someone else...

His best 2 signings were Trotz and Korn.

I'm not standing for "good but not great", so I understand your point of view on that. All I'm saying is I think this organization with Trotz and Poile at the helm have a better chance at some form of success than many other franchises on a consistent, year to year basis, so you kinda take it for what it's worth. Again, I digress back to one of my original thoughts which was it's really gonna be interesting in the coming years if the new ownership holds true on their desire to be close to the cap on an annual basis.

TMI 11-24-2011 04:26 PM

@Drake: that has been my opinion for a while now. The two guys we have running the show (Poile and Trotz) have been great while holding the reins of a team on a relatively low budget. The real test comes when they are able to spend closer to, or up to, the cap ceiling. If they cannot get it done with the same amount of salary dollars that teams like Detroit, Vancouver, Boston, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc have then their jobs are certainly in question.

Drake744 11-24-2011 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThirdManIn (Post 39909067)
@Drake: that has been my opinion for a while now. The two guys we have running the show (Poile and Trotz) have been great while holding the reins of a team on a relatively low budget. The real test comes when they are able to spend closer to, or up to, the cap ceiling. If they cannot get it done with the same amount of salary dollars that teams like Detroit, Vancouver, Boston, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc have then their jobs are certainly in question.

And while it's always been a "what if" scenario in the past (with the possible exception of 06-07), fortunately now it seems like it's just a matter of time.


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