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-   -   The "Using a Defenseman as a Forward" Thread (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1045823)

lamp9post 12-03-2011 09:08 PM

The "Using a Defenseman as a Forward" Thread
 
Hello everyone,

I am curious about your opinions on using a defenseman as a forward, as we have done in the past with Streit and currently (occasionally) with Weber. There seems to be a lot of negative sentiment towards the idea, but personally I like it. It worked great with Streit, who played the PP and also a regular shift on the third line. It seems to work best with an offensive D, who can then play PP, play on a defensive line and also contribute offense.

What are your opinions about playing Weber in this role? Personally, I think it could be a good way to develop him, since he's not a better defensive dman than his direct competition in the depth chart (Diaz, St. Denis, Emelin), but he has PP abilities (although hasn't shown them lately), a great shot, and can play a regular shift on the 4th line.

So why not? Do you prefer a grittier, more traditional 4th liner in the role? Are you concerned for his development, having to switch roles often?

I like the idea. What are your thoughts?

Habs13 12-03-2011 09:31 PM

I dislike it. Always have. Streit, Bergeron and now Weber - three guys said to be not good enough to play defense on a regular basis but who have good shots from the point. In my opinion, playing defenceman as forwards on the 4th line is a move made by a coach that has no respect for grinders and what they bring to a team. The 4th line is for energy guys that will go out and hit and scare the other team, and if they are good grinders, can play shut down against the other team's offensive players.

If Martin thinks Weber isn't good enough to play 3rd pairing D, how is he good enough to play 4th line?

To me, it's like how badly Eller plays on wing compared to how well he plays his natural position, at center.

hogtownhabsfan* 12-03-2011 09:35 PM

Honestly I would prefer simply rolling 7 D, and double shifting a forward on that 4th line like we saw today.

Reward guys who are playing well with extra ice time, and I think it makes the team as dangerous as possible.

ECWHSWI 12-03-2011 09:39 PM

THE issue imo is that we're playing Weber on the 4th line to make room for... -> St Denis...

Sports1131 12-03-2011 09:40 PM

I don't like the concept in general, but I can't really blame Martin under the circumstances. I know he's been poor lately, but I'd rather have a guy like Weber take an occasional forward shift and hopefully contribute on the power play than have someone like Engqvist out there just eating minutes.

On the other hand, I absolutely despised the things Carbonneau did. I've never seen a team have their seventh defenseman scratched one night (Dandenault) and then being the first line winger the next. He was absolutely obsessed with it and it was the biggest reason I wanted him fired.

Teufelsdreck 12-03-2011 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ECWHSWI (Post 40388575)
THE issue imo is that we're playing Weber on the 4th line to make room for... -> St Denis...

Face it, St-Denis is a better defensive Dman than Weber, but that isn't the full story. Overall, Weber's a liability.

How many goals does Weber score in a season, whether at ES or on the PP? Not as many as Streit or MAB and not enough to offset the PPs he messes up or the times he allows the opponents to score at ES. When all the injured Dmen are back in action there won't be room for Weber (or St-Denis, who'll be sent to Hamilton). It's better to carry a 4th line RW who scores a modest 5-8 goals, forechecks aggressively, and throws some meaningful hits.

Gauthier: Please trade Weber. Maybe you can get a young goaltending prospect or a draft choice that you can turn into one,

Monctonscout 12-03-2011 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamp9post (Post 40383581)
Hello everyone,

I am curious about your opinions on using a defenseman as a forward, as we have done in the past with Streit and currently (occasionally) with Weber. There seems to be a lot of negative sentiment towards the idea, but personally I like it. It worked great with Streit, who played the PP and also a regular shift on the third line. It seems to work best with an offensive D, who can then play PP, play on a defensive line and also contribute offense.

What are your opinions about playing Weber in this role? Personally, I think it could be a good way to develop him, since he's not a better defensive dman than his direct competition in the depth chart (Diaz, St. Denis, Emelin), but he has PP abilities (although hasn't shown them lately), a great shot, and can play a regular shift on the 4th line.

So why not? Do you prefer a grittier, more traditional 4th liner in the role? Are you concerned for his development, having to switch roles often?

I like the idea. What are your thoughts?

I don't see the big deal. Streit was good as a forward, though in hindsight Carbo should have played him ahead of a lot of others. Weber, once everybody is healthy, I think can help us more than Darche or Palushaj, plus it keeps him developing.

Monctonscout 12-03-2011 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck (Post 40394699)
Face it, St-Denis is a better defensive Dman than Weber, but that isn't the full story. Overall, Weber's a liability.

How many goals does Weber score in a season, whether at ES or on the PP? Not as many as Streit or MAB and not enough to offset the PPs he messes up or the times he allows the opponents to score at ES. When all the injured Dmen are back in action there won't be room for Weber (or St-Denis, who'll be sent to Hamilton). It's better to carry a 4th line RW who scores a modest 5-8 goals, forechecks aggressively, and throws some meaningful hits.

Gauthier: Please trade Weber. Maybe you can get a young goaltending prospect or a draft choice that you can turn into one,

Weber has had a few rough games lately, but that shouldn't label him as a liability. For part of the year he was one of our better d-men. He's proven he can play defense at the NHL level though he isn't ready for top 4 minutes night in and night out...which is normal for a guy with less than 80 games under his belt.

I love how posters on HOCKEY'S FUTURE website love labelling guys based on a few bad games.

Teufelsdreck 12-03-2011 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carey Price (Post 40394915)
I don't see the big deal. Streit was good as a forward, though in hindsight Carbo should have played him ahead of a lot of others. Weber, once everybody is healthy, I think can help us more than Darche or Palushaj, plus it keeps him developing.

But from what we're seen, not more than Leblanc.

Belso 12-03-2011 10:41 PM

I'm tired of it.. Who started this? Carbo? It has to end sometime.. :shakehead

Monctonscout 12-03-2011 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck (Post 40395633)
But from what we're seen, not more than Leblanc.

LeBlanc belongs in the AHL once Pacioretty and Gomez are back, not playing 4th line.

Hugo Sham 12-03-2011 10:59 PM

it's idiotic. either roll 7 dman as someone mentioned or create a real 4th line with an identity - an identity that is tough checking, intimidating and momentum changing

Kirk Muller 12-03-2011 11:02 PM

I personally cant stand having the 7th defenseman on the fourth line. Essentially its a warm body filling a roster spot serving no purpose. Unfortunately Montreal doesn't have a proper fourth line and usually serves no purpose as a whole. Hasnt for years.

Guilliam 12-03-2011 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan (Post 40387961)
Honestly I would prefer simply rolling 7 D, and double shifting a forward on that 4th line like we saw today.

Reward guys who are playing well with extra ice time, and I think it makes the team as dangerous as possible.

This. I wouldn't mind Weber playing 3-4 minutes a game as a PP specialist and double-shift a forward that is having a good night. Guys like AK, Cole, Pacioretty or Moen can handle more playing time.

Even the best of the Ds we've used as a forward (I think it was streit) is still not playing as well as a real forward would and he's not playing at his best either because it's not his natural position.

Lucius 12-03-2011 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk Muller (Post 40397893)
I personally cant stand having the 7th defenseman on the fourth line. Essentially its a warm body filling a roster spot serving no purpose. Unfortunately Montreal doesn't have a proper fourth line and usually serves no purpose as a whole. Hasnt for years.

Normally I agree, but lately, I can get it.

Weber plays on the PP and does a good job there. Palushaj, for better or worse, gets like 2 minutes a game when they do play him. I'd rather see Weber skate those two minutes and play on all our PPs than watch them ignore Palushaj.

Once the team is healthier, it'll make less sense, I imagine. We need Ryan White back.

sammy d 12-03-2011 11:22 PM

you use your 20 best players any way that works....period.

Kirk Muller 12-03-2011 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucius (Post 40398565)
Normally I agree, but lately, I can get it.

Weber plays on the PP and does a good job there. Palushaj, for better or worse, gets like 2 minutes a game when they do play him. I'd rather see Weber skate those two minutes and play on all our PPs than watch them ignore Palushaj.

Once the team is healthier, it'll make less sense, I imagine. We need Ryan White back.

you mean he does a good job on one of the worst ranked powerplays in the league. Interesting definition of good.

Guilliam 12-03-2011 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk Muller (Post 40399221)
you mean he does a good job on one of the worst ranked powerplays in the league. Interesting definition of good.

Well it's not like we have tons of better options on the point. God, Gorges is on the firs unit now! :facepalm:

Kirk Muller 12-03-2011 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guilliam (Post 40399947)
Well it's not like we have tons of better options on the point. God, Gorges is on the firs unit now! :facepalm:

Dont conveniently ignore the fact Weber started there and FAILED MISERABLY. So you cant blame them for trying Gorges there now. Do the habs have better options right now, debatable but dont say they have no better options so Weber should be there when he already showed incapable.

Skarjak 12-03-2011 11:50 PM

Montréal's recent history of using puck-moving, offensive D as forwards is concerning. The strengths of such players are breakout passes, and blue line cannons, two assets which they can't use at all as forwards. What's the point?

EDIT: I would rather see Georges on the point than Plekanec... At least we won't be scored on.

Dont Poke Subban 12-03-2011 11:56 PM

This thread made me miss Mathieu Dandenault. I love that guy AS A FORWARD.

Guilliam 12-04-2011 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk Muller (Post 40400597)
Dont conveniently ignore the fact Weber started there and FAILED MISERABLY. So you cant blame them for trying Gorges there now. Do the habs have better options right now, debatable but dont say they have no better options so Weber should be there when he already showed incapable.

He's already shown capable of it. He was doing a pretty good job at some point and replaced PK on the first unit. He's just not playing well right now and have lost confidence. Not so long ago, he was tied for first in the league in PP goals for defensemen with 3. So it's not like he's out of his element. He's just having a rough time. And the defending teams know that he's the shooter (the other guy being Pleks or Gorges) so they pressure him a lot.

While we're on it, why do we never play Cammy on the point? he's done it in LA ans has the best one timer on the team.

Marchy79 12-04-2011 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guilliam (Post 40402045)
He's already shown capable of it. He was doing a pretty good job at some point and replaced PK on the first unit. He's just not playing well right now and have lost confidence. Not so long ago, he was tied for first in the league in PP goals for defensemen with 3. So it's not like he's out of his element. He's just having a rough time. And the defending teams know that he's the shooter (the other guy being Pleks or Gorges) so they pressure him a lot.

While we're on it, why do we never play Cammy on the point? he's done it in LA ans has the best one timer on the team.

Its sad to say... But I havent seen a good Cammy one timer all year so far. He really hasnt hit the broad side o the barn with that laser he has.

Guilliam 12-04-2011 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 (Post 40402201)
Its sad to say... But I havent seen a good Cammy one timer all year so far. He really hasnt hit the broad side o the barn with that laser he has.

He had one good shot today when he was in high, near the blue line. May not have been a one timer though. I still think he would have a better chance to score from there than Gorges, Pleks or anyone else except maybe AK.

Kirk Muller 12-04-2011 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guilliam (Post 40402045)
He's already shown capable of it. He was doing a pretty good job at some point and replaced PK on the first unit. He's just not playing well right now and have lost confidence. Not so long ago, he was tied for first in the league in PP goals for defensemen with 3. So it's not like he's out of his element. He's just having a rough time. And the defending teams know that he's the shooter (the other guy being Pleks or Gorges) so they pressure him a lot.

While we're on it, why do we never play Cammy on the point? he's done it in LA ans has the best one timer on the team.

Capable of it means more than just a small stretch of games.

How bout the fact he has 1 goal in the last 19 games despite getting the most PP time amongst defenseman. Hell Plekanec is the only one with more on the team. Capable and being good at it are too separate things. 1 goal in 19, well thats over 2/3 of the season he has done little to nothing. More than just struggling lately.


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