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-   -   Blue Jays Discussion: Texas win the right to Yu Darvish... Meanwhile, Jays fans are jumping off the cliff (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1060049)

Nasty Nazem 12-20-2011 09:26 PM

Texas win the right to Yu Darvish... Meanwhile, Jays fans are jumping off the cliff
 
Continue discussions.

LeeIs 12-20-2011 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryno23 (Post 41269671)
Question is how long does this rebuild take? Bautista is not getting any younger and you have guys on short term deal like Escobar, Lind and others who will hit FA soon enough.

When does this team say yes we are going for it. Does AA waste the next 3 years of Jose's deal waiting for this supposed minor league youth movement to come along and hopefully make an impact.

I don't see the Jays getting any better in the next 3 years. Who is coming up that will push this team over the top? D'Arnaud?? Gose?? Both are blocked at the MLB level but even then they are not impact players to make a difference like a Longoria or Price were when they came up. The pitching depth is about 3-5 years away and then once here probably a 2 more years to get their feet wet in the Majors and be able to be effective so basically that runs you almost 5- 7 years down the road before the fruit of the farm system pays any dividend

Does anyone expect anyone but the hardcore 10k that show up to jays games now to get behind a rebuild when a retool would be way better for this team cause they have a solid core now and only need 3 things

1. #2 or 3 starter to solidify the rotation
2. 1b or DH that can hit cleanup and provide Jose with protection
3. solid veteran bullpen prefer a lefty like Downs was to anchor the 8th

That is 3 moves to make to give the team a legit shot at least to compete for the WC

quoting you because it sucks being the last post of a closed thread ;)

Vexxed14 12-20-2011 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nasty Nazem (Post 41269323)
Just sayin' but signing a Darvish or Fielder wouldn't be going all in since those are young guys you can build around. I think that is why is Jays fans want those guys.

But, both of those guys cost a ton to sign.

Right but you can't sign guys for that kind of cash and not try and win now. By making a signing like that you are also making a statement to the team, your fans and the league. If you are not ready to make that statement, the signing often backfires as the pressure to win is immense.

Leafs are a good example of the pressure when you look at what happened after getting Kessel.

Raym11 12-20-2011 09:33 PM

how will this effect the economy

Brewsky 12-20-2011 09:34 PM

Given a prime Jose Baptista...we got about 5-6 years.

Sign Fielder.

Sign an endorsement deal with McDonald's Big Macs.

We win the world championship brother!

AH **** this Yu Darvish bullcrap has got me confused now!

Alex Anthoppabigpoppalous.

Nasty Nazem 12-20-2011 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexxed14 (Post 41269931)
Right but you can't sign guys for that kind of cash and not try and win now. By making a signing like that you are also making a statement to the team, your fans and the league. If you are not ready to make that statement, the signing often backfires as the pressure to win is immense.

Leafs are a good example of the pressure when you look at what happened after getting Kessel.

Yup, I think AA likely feels the same way.

We finished 4th in the AL East and it is a tough division every year and Jays simply don't know what they have with most of the roster as there are a lot of question marks.

My guess is, AA will try to do what Texas has done which is build a strong core and its a playoff team and then you can go out trade for a Lee, sign a Beltre, sign a Darvish etc..

TruthDeliveryVehicle* 12-20-2011 09:43 PM

Typical for a Kings fan to be quite content on rebuilding forever.

theaub 12-20-2011 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryno23
Question is how long does this rebuild take? Bautista is not getting any younger and you have guys on short term deal like Escobar, Lind and others who will hit FA soon enough.

When does this team say yes we are going for it. Does AA waste the next 3 years of Jose's deal waiting for this supposed minor league youth movement to come along and hopefully make an impact.

I don't see the Jays getting any better in the next 3 years. Who is coming up that will push this team over the top? D'Arnaud?? Gose?? Both are blocked at the MLB level but even then they are not impact players to make a difference like a Longoria or Price were when they came up. The pitching depth is about 3-5 years away and then once here probably a 2 more years to get their feet wet in the Majors and be able to be effective so basically that runs you almost 5- 7 years down the road before the fruit of the farm system pays any dividend

Does anyone expect anyone but the hardcore 10k that show up to jays games now to get behind a rebuild when a retool would be way better for this team cause they have a solid core now and only need 3 things

1. #2 or 3 starter to solidify the rotation
2. 1b or DH that can hit cleanup and provide Jose with protection
3. solid veteran bullpen prefer a lefty like Downs was to anchor the 8th

That is 3 moves to make to give the team a legit shot at least to compete for the WC

I'll just bullet point this off

1) D'Arnaud and Gose can certainly be impact rookies at the MLB level. D'Arnaud will likely be up at some point this year and as such can contribute as soon as 2013. Gose might still be a year and a bit away, but if his hitting keeps progressing like it has the past two years there's no reason to say he won't be a solid contributor by '13/'14 as well. Either way, the offense isn't the problem on this team so I'm not too worried about that.

2) The massive pitching depth may be a couple of years away, but McGuire/Hutchison should get looks this year, and we also have Drabek who will hopefully be better this year. A 2013 rotation of Romero/Morrow/Alvarez along with hopefully a new guy and then one of those three will also be solid.

3) Bullpen arms are pretty easy to get. I don't think that will be a problem. I still believe we'll find a dependable mid-rotation starter this year and yeah it would be nice to get an upgrade over Lind but unless Prince wants a short term deal I don't think there's anyone out there.

Who is the core of this team? Outside of Bautista/Lawrie/Romero and maybe Escobar and Santos, everyone is very replaceable. Four of those five will be around for at least four years, and the other guy will still be here (but how good he'll be is up for debate obviously).

trellaine201 12-20-2011 09:48 PM

No gio please, not at the current asking price... Lots of BB will come back to haunt this team in the homer dome/sky dome ! These teams in the east can hit!

Dark Knight 12-20-2011 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trellaine201 (Post 41270861)
No gio please, not at the current asking price... Lots of BB will come back to haunt this team in the homer dome/sky dome ! These teams in the east can hit!

Garza is my preference but Gio would be a nice consolation prize depending on what we give up. I think everyone knows he lacks upside of a Matt Latos, but he's a safe top of the rotation to a very good middle of the rotation starter.

Both would be amazing, though.

Romero
Garza
Gonzales
Morrow
Alvarez


Amazing rotation.

jcollins 12-20-2011 09:53 PM

Here's what I don't get...All of these people *****ing about how much they hate Rogers and what not. So why they hell are you still talking about them?

We missed out on Darvish, yup, that sucks. AA put a value on him and went in at that value, it just so happened that Texas valued him a bit more. And in a closed bidding process, how is AA to know that it would be that close?

In baseball just like other businesses, you give certain products a value and you won't pay more than that for the product. Tyler Beede is a perfect example, he wanted tons of money, to AA he wasn't worth that, he chose to move on.

The Wyzerhood 12-20-2011 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Knight (Post 41271027)
Garza is my preference but Gio would be a nice consolation prize depending on what we give up. I think everyone knows he lacks upside of a Matt Latos, but he's a safe top of the rotation to a very good middle of the rotation starter.

Both would be amazing, though.

Romero
Garza
Gonzales
Morrow
Alvarez


Amazing rotation.

I wouldn't classify Gio as a safe top of the rotation starter, maybe borderline. He's definitely a safe and very good middle of the rotation option though. I really doubt AA trades for both Garza and Gio since it would completely deplete our prospect cupboard. If anything, he'll go for one or another top of the rotation starter and sign a FA to a 1-year deal if he isn't comfortable with both Cecil and Alvarez.

dredeye 12-20-2011 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nasty Nazem (Post 41270189)
Yup, I think AA likely feels the same way.

We finished 4th in the AL East and it is a tough division every year and Jays simply don't know what they have with most of the roster as there are a lot of question marks.

My guess is, AA will try to do what Texas has done which is build a strong core and its a playoff team and then you can go out trade for a Lee, sign a Beltre, sign a Darvish etc..

Exactly, fans are just ahead of themselves. Many of us thought by 2012 we'd be close. Which we are IMO. By 2013 we'll know how our team has come together and should be ready to add. We are a year or two away from adding those pieces imo

darko 12-20-2011 10:03 PM

Haven't gone through the locked thread but 1 of the guys on baseball boards said that Oswalt is willing to do a 1 year deal. Perfect fit for you guys.

Romero
Oswalt
Morrow
Cecil
Alvarez

Keep Drabek in AAA. If he lights it up you have an option of trading Oswalt for a prospect to a team looking to bolster its rotation for playoffs. and bring up Drabek. If you are out of contention you can swing him for a prospect. Hutchison will be pushing for a call up mid year too IMO.

darko 12-20-2011 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Knight (Post 41271027)
Garza is my preference but Gio would be a nice consolation prize depending on what we give up. I think everyone knows he lacks upside of a Matt Latos, but he's a safe top of the rotation to a very good middle of the rotation starter.

Both would be amazing, though.

Romero
Garza
Gonzales
Morrow
Alvarez


Amazing rotation.



Amazing? No.

Good deep rotation? Absolutely. What keeps it from an amazing rotation is that 1 top guy in the mold of Halladay/Lincecum/Sabathia/Lee etc.

That is why I'd clean out the farm system and go after Hamels. Garza wont be cheap, much rather pay bit more and go for a guy who is a top-10 pitcher in the game (Hamels).


Hamels
Romero
Oswalt
Gio
Morrow


You'd be gutting you farm to get Hamels and Gio however.

N Bahn Ahden 12-20-2011 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeIs (Post 41269891)
quoting you because it sucks being the last post of a closed thread ;)

What a guy

Woodman19 12-20-2011 10:13 PM

Problem is I dont see the Phillies looking to unload one of the Big 3 pitchers. Would you lol?

Nasty Nazem 12-20-2011 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darko (Post 41271991)
Amazing? No.

Good deep rotation? Absolutely. What keeps it from an amazing rotation is that 1 top guy in the mold of Halladay/Lincecum/Sabathia/Lee etc.

That is why I'd clean out the farm system and go after Hamels. Garza wont be cheap, much rather pay bit more and go for a guy who is a top-10 pitcher in the game (Hamels).


Hamels
Romero
Oswalt
Gio
Morrow


You'd be gutting you farm to get Hamels and Gio however.

Phillies won't trade Hamels and he is one year away from free agency so I don't see how that makes sense for us as he will take a lot of money to re-sign but will probably prefer to a contender like Red Sox and Yankees or re-sign with the Phillies.

Right now, I'd just try to get a bunch of good starters 1-5 like Texas and try to go for a high one when you become a good team. It will be easier to convince them to come (assuming NTC) or sign them.

I think Gio makes the most sense for us right now as he is cheap, under control for a 4-5 years but I wouldn't give the A's the package they are looking for.

darko 12-20-2011 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nasty Nazem (Post 41272605)
Phillies won't trade Hamels and he is one year away from free agency so I don't see how that makes sense for us as he will take a lot of money to re-sign but will probably prefer to a contender like Red Sox and Yankees or re-sign with the Phillies.


Hamels would sign a contract extension as part of the deal. He wont be cheap, probably gets 20 mill per on a 5/6 year deal. I'd pay that for Hamels.

Off course Phillies could just keep him and try to win it again. They could always re-sign him in the offseason.

Nasty Nazem 12-20-2011 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darko (Post 41272975)
Hamels would sign a contract extension as part of the deal. He wont be cheap, probably gets 20 mill per on a 5/6 year deal. I'd pay that for Hamels.

Off course Phillies could just keep him and try to win it again. They could always re-sign him in the offseason.

If he came with an extension, then hell yeah though I don't see why Hamels would do that going from a contender to maybe a playoffs team and signing an extension with them?

He would be sick in our rotation though. Let's wait 2 season and sign Doc. :laugh:

Theron 12-20-2011 10:34 PM

Quote:

The Blue Jays bid over $50MM for Yu Darvish, falling just short of the Rangers' $51.7MM bid, according to Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star.
guhhh that makes me a sad panda.. soooo close :(

not a big fan of gio

TheNorthFace 12-20-2011 10:47 PM

Really wanted Darvish. Hope AA pulls off something decent now. I'd love Fielder, but that's pretty much a pipe dream.

Jaysfanatic* 12-20-2011 10:47 PM

Ok, no jumping off the cliff if the difference was actually 1.7M dollars or so. The Jays apparently had a valiant bid. **** the Rangers ;)

p.l.f. 12-20-2011 10:58 PM

some feel AA would have known it would take more than 50 million to get Darvish, since that's what it took to get Dice K who's not as good

The Man in White 12-20-2011 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p.l.f. (Post 41274515)
some feel AA would have known it would take more than 50 million to get Darvish, since that's what it took to get Dice K who's not as good

It took about $33 million to get Dice K. Boston paid nearly $20 million more than the second highest bid.

What I'm trying to say here, is that...some people are really stupid.


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