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-   -   couple topics, about NYR's future on defense ... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=106333)

AG9NK35DT8* 09-29-2004 09:08 PM

couple topics, about NYR's future on defense ...
 
just out of curiosity if and when liffiton and jake taylor make the team or if they do who do u think they would be paired with. this could be as close as 2 years down the road which i would love to see. maybe something along the lines of....
i didnt include rachunek as i think he wouldnt be here plus i would rather have the spot filled with the like of taylor liffiton and kondratiev

Pock - J.Taylor
Tyutin - kondratiev
Lampman - Liffiton

liffiton and taylor provide a tough nasty game, kondratiev and lampman as defensive d-men, and pock with a solid 2 way game highly offensive and same for tyutin a solid 2 way game will put up good offensive #'s doubt better than pock but he will be probably more sound defensively. just with that NYR looks to be very solid for the future having a little bit of everything, toughness , offense, defensive awareness.

but what about for this year what pairings do u guys like :

Tyutin-Kasparitis
Pock-Marshall / Rachunek( think marshall should be in the top 6 good vet to have hard working)
Rachunek / Marshall - Lampman / kondratiev

think marshall should be in the top 6 good vet to have hard working.

Nyr has some very solid young guys that i think are ready to go now and some in2 -3 years hopefully no more than that...


Lampman
Tyutin
Pock
Liffiton
Taylor
Kondratiev

the guys below i think will be the odd men out.... but who says trades wont be made its not a fact NYR will have there d lineup of all home grown d-men it would be sweet but not all together realistic. feel free to add defenseman if i leeft any out as which i know i did i just took the most obvious.
Baranka
Nycholat
Grenier
Rachunek ( probably be traded or gone)

out of those 10 listed who will be here and who wont i think the top 6 to make the team would be tyutin, pock, taylor, liffiton, lampman and kondratiev.
just giving everyone something to talk about, to try to keep the board busy, or atleast give people things to talk about.

Fish 09-29-2004 09:34 PM

I don't actually expect Taylor to make it as an NHL regular, and Lampman might be more a borderline guy too...though I do like the way Lampman plays.

Baranka I think has a better chance at making it and perhaps Guenin too for that matter...Paiement will be an overager next season and might have an outside chance as an offensive minded d-man also.

in the hall 09-29-2004 10:34 PM

current rangers now and the future (1-3 years)
Tjutin
Pock
Kasparitus - he ain't going no where with that contract

prospects most likely to stick
Kondratiev
Baranka

everyone else
Liffiton never seen him but I get the impression he's JAG in the making
I think Lampman is an NHL caliber dman but there are better youngsters in the organization that will eventually push him out if he isn't already.
Taylor is a Pilon, probably a decent #6 later on

can't comment on anyone else since I don't know enough about them

RGF 09-30-2004 12:27 AM

Taylor will make it fletch, no prospect has shown his raw strength and ability to grapple guys and smother plays....his skating will get better, it already has, if u look closely over this past summer.

hes in as a 5/6 guy for sure, he has a better chance than lampman, lampman is good but hey if your 26 27 and the nhl is out for a yr and you havent solidified yourself, you wontmake it with the kids we have coming. and paiemont, please

RGF 09-30-2004 12:34 AM

To clarify though, i think baranka is better all around right now than taylor, but taylor is no beukeboom but he can be close with the right coaching....any kid recruited to play at minny has some serious potential....im sure if he had stayed for four yrs wed be lusting for him to come, but hes still gonna make it

2/3 yrs down

no pairings but....tyutin, pock, baranka, kasper, taylor, liffiton, kondratiev, rachunek, poti, and lampman, and im sure the likes of geuinin or some stud to be drafted....we have a serious glut.....like san jose back a couple years ago, and this will give us the chance to be selective, and be f'in darwin, about our D line and then will be thinking about Cups again.

Fish 09-30-2004 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGF
Taylor will make it fletch, no prospect has shown his raw strength and ability to grapple guys and smother plays....his skating will get better, it already has, if u look closely over this past summer.

hes in as a 5/6 guy for sure, he has a better chance than lampman, lampman is good but hey if your 26 27 and the nhl is out for a yr and you havent solidified yourself, you wontmake it with the kids we have coming. and paiemont, please

First off, I'd suggest that both Guenin and Liffiton have shown the same kind of "raw strength" as Taylor has, and both are more polished (and more experienced) players at this stage of their careers. While Taylor improved in his first (and only year) of college, he still is very raw and is known less for his "grappling" and more for his "going out of his way to hit people".

Taylor isn't the fastest player on the ice and that's where I wonder whether he might be just another Jeff State...he has plenty of potential to be a 5th/6th guy in my opinion, but he's so far off at this stage I think the odds are against him. At any rate the way the league is going you have to wonder whether there'll even be a place for his type in a few years.

IMO Guenin is a far more polished version (and still has a ways to go) of Taylor...is nickname of "Nasty" is appropriate and he provides more in his game than Taylor does. Liffiton too appears to be a better prospect at this stage of his career and doesn't turn 19 until next month.

As for Lampman...he only just turned 22, so I think he's still got time to improve...of the lot he has the best positioning and agility, I just wonder whether he'll have NHL strength.

sathershouldgo 09-30-2004 07:22 AM

I read Taylor can fight and has a mean streak. To make that college team as a Freshman and be in their top 4 says an a ton about Taylor. I think he stands a great chance to make the NHL for us. Baranka should be in the top 7 for our prospects. He is easily our most talented defense prospect all around in the minors. What he accomplished last year was incredible. Still don't know why the light hasn't gone on for some on this kid. He will be in the NHL by next year.

I would say our defense in 2 years will be

Tyutin-Liffiton
Kasper-Baranka
Kondratiev-Pock

By then I expect Poti and Rachunek to be moved. I kind of hope when they start playing again Poti will be moved for some more picks. Taylor is very young and I expect he will need at least 3 years at Hartford. Big defenseman take a while unless they are incredibly talented. I expect by 23 Taylor will be ready.

Kubera55 09-30-2004 08:59 AM

I love the optomism, but can anyone point to a team with 4 in-house-drafted players in their top six defensemen? Or a team that's had success with five defenseman under 25 at the same time?

Out of the entire crop of defensemen the Rangers have, I'm hoping for 2-3 everyday guys, and maybe a goon or some trading fodder if we're lucky. That's about it. Remember, these aren't a bevy of high first round picks, and the success rate of most players not drafted in the 1st round is substantially lower than 50%. The Rangers probably have about 8 (Tjutin, Pock, Kondraitev, Liffiton, Taylor, Guenin, Lampman, Potter) legitimate defensive prospects, and several of them are very marginal.

It's fun to get excited, but most of these guys are 5/6 types. The Rangers can't have four 5/6 defenseman on the team. So unless several of these players vastly exceed their currently percieved potential, the Rangers aren't getting that many players out of this group.

But hey, Jack Johnson's draft eligbile this year. An elite, explosive, two-way American defenseman, who's going to be Al Montoya's teammate this year? Color me substantially interested :-)

Tawnos 09-30-2004 09:27 AM

^^

An intriguing thought about Johnson. Granted, I expect if there is a season that the Rangers will be bad enough to compete for Crosby. But I read the snippet on Johnson in the preliminary top 10 from ISS and my first thought was "hey, a replacement for Leetch."

Fish 09-30-2004 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sathershouldgo
I read Taylor can fight and has a mean streak. To make that college team as a Freshman and be in their top 4 says an a ton about Taylor. I think he stands a great chance to make the NHL for us. Baranka should be in the top 7 for our prospects. He is easily our most talented defense prospect all around in the minors. What he accomplished last year was incredible. Still don't know why the light hasn't gone on for some on this kid. He will be in the NHL by next year.

Well he certainly didn't fight last year...the NCAA carries automatic suspensions for that kind of thing, which may be part of the reason why they got him out early. As to him being a top 4 d-man at Minnesota...much of that was because of injuries. He did end up with some PK time and improved as the year went on, but I wouldn't read too much into it...

ATLANTARANGER* 09-30-2004 10:04 AM

What specifically do you find troubling with Taylor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish
I don't actually expect Taylor to make it as an NHL regular, and Lampman might be more a borderline guy too...though I do like the way Lampman plays.

Baranka I think has a better chance at making it and perhaps Guenin too for that matter...Paiement will be an overager next season and might have an outside chance as an offensive minded d-man also.


To be honest with you, I've seen him a number of times last year, and as freshman I thought he did fairly well. I think his agility, foot movement could be upgraded, which with our organizations $ should be taken care of. I think it is lateral agility that a lot of people see that makes them think he is slow. I disagree. After watching him I see a young, raw Buekeboom in him. People fail to remember how truly raw Buek was. Taylor is the kind of dman that will take a few years to mature. Think Islanders, think Brewer.
I am going to post a post from a different sport on defensive players and why people make the mistake in evaluating defensive players.

Fish 09-30-2004 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
To be honest with you, I've seen him a number of times last year, and as freshman I thought he did fairly well. I think his agility, foot movement could be upgraded, which with our organizations $ should be taken care of. I think it is lateral agility that a lot of people see that makes them think he is slow. I disagree. After watching him I see a young, raw Buekeboom in him. People fail to remember how truly raw Buek was. Taylor is the kind of dman that will take a few years to mature. Think Islanders, think Brewer.
I am going to post a post from a different sport on defensive players and why people make the mistake in evaluating defensive players.

I too saw him probably 15 or 16 times, and would agree about his lateral movement (turning radius too?) as being his biggest weakness right now rather than his straight ahead speed.

On the Beukeboom comparison, I'd counter with this...it seems to me that the NHL today is perhaps not as suitable for his type of player. Forwards have better bursts of speed and although strength is an important asset and will only continue to be, agility is also of equal if not more importance. In fact, with Bettman's focus on removing many of the physical aspects of the game, I wonder if getting physically active defensemen will ever be a positive again.

For me the "next Beukeboom" is more about fondness for what was and what worked...I tend to believe the game has changed and that Beukeboom would not have the same success today.

Kodiak 09-30-2004 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
To be honest with you, I've seen him a number of times last year, and as freshman I thought he did fairly well. I think his agility, foot movement could be upgraded, which with our organizations $ should be taken care of. I think it is lateral agility that a lot of people see that makes them think he is slow. I disagree. After watching him I see a young, raw Buekeboom in him. People fail to remember how truly raw Buek was. Taylor is the kind of dman that will take a few years to mature. Think Islanders, think Brewer.
I am going to post a post from a different sport on defensive players and why people make the mistake in evaluating defensive players.

Not every big d-man with a mean streak and a good work ethic improves his skating enough to be a top 4 d-man in the NHL. If it were that way, Dale Purinton would not have less mobility than Mike Dunham in full gear. Taylor could make significant improvements in his skating, but sometimes there is only so much that can be done. I'd put guys like Liffiton and Guenin who don't have the huge mobility question marks above Taylor. I think the only reasons Taylor gets so much hype around here is his size and because we like to make jokes about his name (which seem to have died off recently).

Classic Devil 09-30-2004 10:23 AM

Why does everyone think Rachunek will be moved?

Fish 09-30-2004 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flame_Star_Devil
Why does everyone think Rachunek will be moved?

Actually I don't think he'll be moved necessarily, but he'll need to improve his defensive game if he hopes to remain in the good graces of Rangers fans. Rachunek at this stage is a much cheaper option than Poti and with Pock also providing an offensive option on the blueline, it might be Poti who becomes a victim of a potential salary cap.

If the cap does not eventuate, or it is high enough to accommodate Poti (or if Pock does not progress), then they may look at moving Rachunek simply because he will be easier to move than Poti.

Having all three on your defense might be a little risky...

Olorin 09-30-2004 10:43 AM

How I see the potential of the Rangers' defensive prospects:

Tyutin: above average #2, not a legitimate #1
Pock: #3 or #4, sees pp time, hopefully average defensively
Baranka: solid #4, defensive defenseman, safe bet
Kondratiev: #4 or #5, I've read some contradicting reports about him being an offensive defenseman and then others stating he was defensive. Two-way perhaps? His size, weight particularly, may hinder him as it is currently. That is fixable, though. Other than that he seems like a fairly safe bet
Liffiton: 3rd pairing defensive defenseman, I think he's a pretty safe bet to reach that level
Guenin: He seems adept at the college level, I don't know too much about him though. I'll take a stab and say he also has 3rd pairing upside.
Taylor: I thought the Cairns comparison (Fish's, I believe) was very apt. From what I saw, his skating and mobility were sub-standard at the college level and efinitely need improving. He has toughness and leadership qualities, I think he was captain of Green Bay. He could round into a 3rd pairing guy, but I really think he would have been better off working on his game at college than in the AHL or ECHL.
Lampman: Safe 3rd pairing or 7th defenseman. I thought he showed promise during his call-up, he obviously needs more experience but should reach his ceiling

Kodiak 09-30-2004 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flame_Star_Devil
Why does everyone think Rachunek will be moved?

Because he did not play well after the trade, and many people here are basing their opinion of him off of those 12 games rather than the 4 years he spent in Ottawa.

Kubera55 09-30-2004 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangerFan13
How I see the potential of the Rangers' defensive prospects:

Tyutin: above average #2, not a legitimate #1
Pock: #3 or #4, sees pp time, hopefully average defensively
Baranka: solid #4, defensive defenseman, safe bet
Kondratiev: #4 or #5, I've read some contradicting reports about him being an offensive defenseman and then others stating he was defensive. Two-way perhaps? His size, weight particularly, may hinder him as it is currently. That is fixable, though. Other than that he seems like a fairly safe bet
Liffiton: 3rd pairing defensive defenseman, I think he's a pretty safe bet to reach that level
Guenin: He seems adept at the college level, I don't know too much about him though. I'll take a stab and say he also has 3rd pairing upside.
Taylor: I thought the Cairns comparison (Fish's, I believe) was very apt. From what I saw, his skating and mobility were sub-standard at the college level and efinitely need improving. He has toughness and leadership qualities, I think he was captain of Green Bay. He could round into a 3rd pairing guy, but I really think he would have been better off working on his game at college than in the AHL or ECHL.
Lampman: Safe 3rd pairing or 7th defenseman. I thought he showed promise during his call-up, he obviously needs more experience but should reach his ceiling

Without commenting on your specific evaluations, I'd like to borrow this list and use it to reinforce my point before. Most of these guys are depth defensemen, and the Rangers cannot have an entire defense made up of depth players. Tjutin and maybe Pock are the only two guys who I've even heard 'top pairing' mentioned, and Kondraitev and Baranka are usually the only top four candidates. That's not a lot of room for error... and that still leaves like 4-5 other guys fighting for 2 spots. And that's assuming the all make it, hardly a forgone conclusion.

Bring on Johnson, says I.

Remarkably I haven't even seen the kid play, and I'm already excited. ;-)

Fish 09-30-2004 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubera55
Without commenting on your specific evaluations, I'd like to borrow this list and use it to reinforce my point before. Most of these guys are depth defensemen, and the Rangers cannot have an entire defense made up of depth players. Tjutin and maybe Pock are the only two guys who I've even heard 'top pairing' mentioned, and Kondraitev and Baranka are usually the only top four candidates. That's not a lot of room for error... and that still leaves like 4-5 other guys fighting for 2 spots. And that's assuming the all make it, hardly a forgone conclusion.

Bring on Johnson, says I.

Remarkably I haven't even seen the kid play, and I'm already excited. ;-)

Well not much room for error if you intend to build your defense entirely from the ranks of the prospects they already have :)

Olorin 09-30-2004 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubera55
Without commenting on your specific evaluations, I'd like to borrow this list and use it to reinforce my point before. Most of these guys are depth defensemen, and the Rangers cannot have an entire defense made up of depth players. Tjutin and maybe Pock are the only two guys who I've even heard 'top pairing' mentioned, and Kondraitev and Baranka are usually the only top four candidates. That's not a lot of room for error... and that still leaves like 4-5 other guys fighting for 2 spots. And that's assuming the all make it, hardly a forgone conclusion.

Bring on Johnson, says I.

Remarkably I haven't even seen the kid play, and I'm already excited. ;-)

I agree with your analysis, and that was my point as well. There is quite a bit of depth in terms of 3rd pairing defensemen, but in terms of top-4 defenders we basically have four prospects with the potential to fill those four spots (IMO, at least).

Then again, as Fish pointed out, there is still plenty of time to improve our stable of defensive prospects whether it be through the draft, trades, or free agency. From what I've read about Johnson he certainly seems like an excellent prospect, and would easily improve our defensive outlook for the future.

sveiglar 09-30-2004 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubera55
I love the optomism, but can anyone point to a team with 4 in-house-drafted players in their top six defensemen? Or a team that's had success with five defenseman under 25 at the same time?

Niedermayer - #3, '91
White - #49, '96
Hale - #22, '00
Martin - #62, '00

also Rafalski was an FA signing from Europe, not acquired by trade or FA signing from another team.

But your point is well taken; a fan of any team that says "look at the six defensemen we could have in two years" and names six prospects is being naive. A D corp of six rookies and sophomores would get killed.

sathershouldgo 09-30-2004 12:58 PM

If Lampman could add about 10 pounds and and get a lot stronger we might have something there. Right now he can't clear the crease.

Chief 09-30-2004 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangerFan13
How I see the potential of the Rangers' defensive prospects:

Tyutin: above average #2, not a legitimate #1
Pock: #3 or #4, sees pp time, hopefully average defensively
Baranka: solid #4, defensive defenseman, safe bet
Kondratiev: #4 or #5, I've read some contradicting reports about him being an offensive defenseman and then others stating he was defensive. Two-way perhaps? His size, weight particularly, may hinder him as it is currently. That is fixable, though. Other than that he seems like a fairly safe bet
Liffiton: 3rd pairing defensive defenseman, I think he's a pretty safe bet to reach that level
Guenin: He seems adept at the college level, I don't know too much about him though. I'll take a stab and say he also has 3rd pairing upside.
Taylor: I thought the Cairns comparison (Fish's, I believe) was very apt. From what I saw, his skating and mobility were sub-standard at the college level and efinitely need improving. He has toughness and leadership qualities, I think he was captain of Green Bay. He could round into a 3rd pairing guy, but I really think he would have been better off working on his game at college than in the AHL or ECHL.
Lampman: Safe 3rd pairing or 7th defenseman. I thought he showed promise during his call-up, he obviously needs more experience but should reach his ceiling

I don't think you're too far off in your estimation of the Rangers D prospects. If nothing else it was refreshing to see someone that doesn't overrate everyone. Pock in particular is a guy who I have not been impressed with at all on the defensive side of things and I have doubts about Lampman as well.

FISH: If I'm not mistaken, I seem to remember you saying you'd seen a bit of Pock while he was in college. Is there anything you saw, such as development from his 1st year to the next, that would make you confident that he can improve defensively?

Fish 09-30-2004 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief
I don't think you're too far off in your estimation of the Rangers D prospects. If nothing else it was refreshing to see someone that doesn't overrate everyone. Pock in particular is a guy who I have not been impressed with at all on the defensive side of things and I have doubts about Lampman as well.

FISH: If I'm not mistaken, I seem to remember you saying you'd seen a bit of Pock while he was in college. Is there anything you saw, such as development from his 1st year to the next, that would make you confident that he can improve defensively?

To be honest, I only saw him last year so I can't give much of a valued judgement in his year to year improvement. I will add though that I don't expect to improve a whole lot on the defensive side unless he can add some strength...I do however expect a lot from him on the offensive side of the puck.

Kubera55 10-01-2004 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sveiglar
Niedermayer - #3, '91
White - #49, '96
Hale - #22, '00
Martin - #62, '00

also Rafalski was an FA signing from Europe, not acquired by trade or FA signing from another team.

But your point is well taken; a fan of any team that says "look at the six defensemen we could have in two years" and names six prospects is being naive. A D corp of six rookies and sophomores would get killed.

Wow, o.k., so I missed one. ;) Nice catch.

Are Hale and Martin both really top four guys tho? Just curious, I think Martin is, but I thought of Hale as more of a depth guy (at admittedly an early stage of his career). Still your point is well taken.


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