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-   -   AA Draft Semifinals: #1 Rensselaer Engineers vs #4 Saskatoon Sheiks (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1069493)

DaveG 01-03-2012 10:31 AM

AA Draft Semifinals: #1 Rensselaer Engineers vs #4 Saskatoon Sheiks
 
Rensselaer Engineers

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ckman_logo.png

coaches Karel Gut & Dick Carroll

New lines:



Josef Augusta - Ernie McLea - Eduard Novak
Miroslav Vlach - Jorgen Jonsson (C) - Jan Klapac
Randy Cunneyworth (A) - Skinner Poulin - Eddie Wares
Tuomo Ruutu - Jeff Halpern (A) - Edgar Dey
Jaroslav Drobny

Kris Letang - Toni Lydman
Petteri Nummelin - Wilf Loughlin
Irek Gimayev - Gord Lane
Tapio Levo

Ron Grahame
Bohumil Modry


vs


Saskatoon Sheiks

Coach: Paul Thompson

Matti Hagman - Guy Charron (A) - Tommy Williams
Sergei Samsonov - Evgeny Groshev - Nelson Emerson
Jochen Hecht - Gavin Kirk - Kevin Miller
Sibby Nichol - Raimo Helminen (C) - Jason Blake

Roy Rickey - Willie Huber
Frank Martin - Barret Jackman (A)
Garth Boesch - Jason Woolley

Bob Froese
Dennis Herron

spares:
Lou Nanne (D/RW)
Bryan Marchment (D)
Parker MacDonald (LW/C)
Chris Simon (LW)


PP1: Hagman - Charron - Emerson - Huber - Woolley
PP2: Samsonov - Groshev - Williams - Martin - Woolley
PK1: Kirk - Hecht - Rickey - Jackman
PK2: Blake - Miller - Huber - Boesch
PK3: Helminen - Hecht - Martin - Jackman

seventieslord 01-05-2012 11:36 PM

Hedberg and/or VI:

I really want to duke it out in this series and make it good, so I hope we don't just cut to voting day on Saturday. I will have more time on the weekend.

Iain Fyffe 01-06-2012 06:16 PM

I can't help but notice that Rensselaer's captain and first-pairing left defenceman, Herbert Russell, was on my MLD team this year. I used him as a LW (IIRC) and called him Bert when I drafted him, so maybe that's why everyone missed it.

Hedberg 01-06-2012 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe (Post 42023881)
I can't help but notice that Rensselaer's captain and first-pairing left defenceman, Herbert Russell, was on my MLD team this year. I used him as a LW (IIRC) and called him Bert when I drafted him, so maybe that's why everyone missed it.

Wow, that's embarrassing. I'm really sorry.

New lines:

Josef Augusta - Ernie McLea - Eduard Novak
Miroslav Vlach - Jorgen Jonsson (C) - Jan Klapac
Randy Cunneyworth (A) - Skinner Poulin - Eddie Wares
Tuomo Ruutu - Jeff Halpern (A) - Edgar Dey
Jaroslav Drobny

Kris Letang - Toni Lydman
Petteri Nummelin - Wilf Loughlin
Irek Gimayev - Gord Lane
Tapio Levo

TheDevilMadeMe 01-06-2012 09:14 PM

Oops. Guess that's what happens when you rush your drafting too much ;)

seventieslord 01-07-2012 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe (Post 42023881)
I can't help but notice that Rensselaer's captain and first-pairing left defenceman, Herbert Russell, was on my MLD team this year. I used him as a LW (IIRC) and called him Bert when I drafted him, so maybe that's why everyone missed it.

....oh my god, this has never happened.

Hedberg, you guys are entitled to another pick, of course. And technically, you should make one, since the draft is not complete until you do.

Rednal Sinav is available! :naughty:

also, I was going to mention last night that Gimayev was a defenseman. Good switch there.

First thought - I voted by phone and thought it made it through, but it didn't. Is that the only reason there was any separation in the standings? :cry:

Hedberg 01-07-2012 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 42043917)
....oh my god, this has never happened.

The price I pay for missing the MLD and AAA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 42043917)
Rednal Sinav is available! :naughty:

I'd prefer Brazilian star Drol Seit-Neves ;)

seventieslord 01-07-2012 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg (Post 42044859)
I'd prefer Brazilian star Drol Seit-Neves ;)

He was cocky and a poor team player. You don't want that guy.

VanIslander 01-07-2012 04:16 AM

I never have nor ever will play a guy out of position. Both of the following players played multiple positions in real life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe (Post 42023881)
I can't help but notice that Rensselaer's captain and first-pairing left defenceman, Herbert Russell, was on my MLD team this year. I used him as a LW (IIRC)

There is evidence that he played "forward" and "point", hence why he was on our blueline as a guy who would be good in transitional play.

He is cited as a point in the lyrics of the song performed at the end of season dinner in 1892, suggesting he might have been point in the earlier years then forward during the following two good scoring seasons, which would explain why he suddenly was twice top-5 in league scoring.

Quote:

At point we have the captain
And if he gets the puck
Will very near the goal he'll shoot
And get it too, with luck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1891%E2...ey_Club_season

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord
I was going to mention last night that Gimayev was a defenseman

In the Soviet league with Red Army for nearly a decade yes, he patrolled the blueline, but, as I detail in his bio, he saw significant ice time as a forward, often center, on the Soviet national team, playing 93 games between 1979-85 in what one assumes is a defensive role since he didn't score much yet kept making the international tourney teams during the height of Soviet hockey. Internationally he debuted as center on Makarov's line in the 1979 Challenge Cup and he "sparkled" along with his linemates, assisting on a goal in the Soviet triumph. He was on the ill fated 1980 Olympics squad but participated in redemption by contributing an assist and a couple of penalties in the 1981 Canada Cup victory. At the 1982 World Championships he as a winger also assisted on Zhluktov's goal in a Soviet win over USA, then later in the tourney scoring the second period 2-1 go-ahead goal against Canada in a 4-3 Soviet win (Canada had talent, with Barber, Reinhart and Propp scoring and Gretzky assisting in the game). Gimayev also scored a goal in the 1984 Canada Cup and took some more penalties. His last game for the national team was the 1985 world championships, ending a six-year stretch in a supporting, utility depth role on the dominant Soviet team.

VanIslander 01-07-2012 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg
Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord
....oh my god, this has never happened.

The price I pay for missing the MLD...

You and me both!

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord
... you guys are entitled to another pick, of course. And technically, you should make one, since the draft is not complete until you do.

We shoud not make another pick. It was our responsibility to draft eligible players and it was my responsibility in administering the draft to catch any picks that are ineligible so it's doubly my fault. Thirdly, another draft has already happened following it, which definitely should - for precedent's sake - mark the final chance for anyone to have made up an invalid pick. Moreover, in real life, an ineligible pick in a hockey draft isn't made up, it is simply lost. It's no problem, as the drafts only recently switched from 24 to 25 picks per squad, and since only 19 skaters plus coach(es) can actually start a game, there is no real cost to icing one of the extra skaters (in fact, this shows the value of drafting well regarding extra skaters!).

VanIslander 01-07-2012 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg (Post 42025273)
Tuomo Ruutu - Jeff Halpern (A) - Edgar Dey

A good change. Halpern moves from wing to center, where his face-off ability will be of great use. Dey, the extremely fast and hard shooting talent makes the starting line-up at a position he played at. The Stanley Cup champion played right wing, rover and defense, as well as some left wing, dubbed, as you may recall from his bio, as cited in the Ottawa Citizen Sept 23 1909: "Edgar Dey, the best all around utility man in the ECHAA."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg
Irek Gimayev - Gord Lane

A good fit. :thumbu: Gimayev on the third pairing in a defensive role alongside tough, stay-at-home defenseman Lane, the Isles dynasty rearguard who paired so successfully with Langevin in a shutdown role.

Iain Fyffe 01-07-2012 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 42049499)
There is evidence that he played "forward" and "point", hence why he was on our blueline as a guy who would be good in transitional play.

I wasn't suggesting he didn't. I believe in my bio I specifically mentioned that be played both cover-point and LW.

VanIslander 01-07-2012 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe (Post 42054175)
I wasn't suggesting he didn't. I believe in my bio I specifically mentioned that be played both cover-point and LW.

You said LW "IIRC", so I explained he played "point" too. I didn't know he also played the more defensive position of "coverpoint".

In the 1892 season Ottawa captain Russell was point and Weldy Young was coverpoint, as I put in the bio I had constructed for Russell more of the song, including:

Quote:

At coverpoint - important place
There's Young, a bulwark strong.
No dodging tricks or flying pace
Will baffle him for long.

At point we have the captain
And if he gets the puck
Will very near the goal he'll shoot
And get it too, with luck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1891%E2...ey_Club_season

DaveG 01-09-2012 11:23 AM

I'll be collecting votes for this round starting today.
Remember to vote for the winner, number of games, and 3 stars of the series.
Results will be posted on Friday.

Please send your votes to me via PM

seventieslord 01-09-2012 11:06 PM

Goaltending:

During the course of Bob Froese's career, he averaged 13 sv% points over the league average and usually had better stats than his highly regarded teammate, Pelle Lindbergh. During Ron Grahame's short NHL stint, averaged 17 sv% points below the league average.

Of course, the NHL isn't where the majority of Graham's resume comes from. He was a great WHA goalie, well, for three seasons at least. Grahame was the WHA's top goalie in 1975 definitively, with the 1st all-star team and Ben Hatskin trophy. Then he was on the 2nd team in 1976, and then in 1977 he somehow managed to win the Ben Hatskin trophy without making the 1st or 2nd all-star team (how on earth does that happen?!? :amazed:)

per-game numbers support Grahame's greatness in the WHA environment: he ranked 5th, 5th, 2nd in the league in sv%, though he was not a workhorse goalie: the highest he ranked in minutes or games, was when he was 7th in 1976, out of 14 teams. In 1975, he was 11th in a 14-team league, and in 1977 he was 12th, in a 12-team league.

Career length is one area where Bob Froese's legacy takes a hit. but Grahame is one goalie who Froese stands up to really well in this area. Grahame played 257 combined games in the WHA and NHL, just 15 more than Froese, who was to the NHL what Grahame was to the WHA: he was once a 2nd team all-star (also 5th and 7th), he was 1st and 8th in sv%, and he was twice 7th in minutes in a league with 21 teams, showing he wasn't just some backup posting good numbers.

Considering they had careers about equally impressive in their respective leagues, and one was in a league much deeper and much more competitive, it should be obvious which one is better equipped to win this series.

Hedberg 01-09-2012 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 42212137)
Then he was on the 2nd team in 1976, and then in 1977 he somehow managed to win the Ben Hatskin trophy without making the 1st or 2nd all-star team (how on earth does that happen?!? :amazed:)

Considering that happened with Dion in 76 as well, I'm guessing a different voting base.

seventieslord 01-10-2012 01:33 AM

- Toni Lydman is excellent. One of the best defensemen in this draft. But, is Kris Letang ready to be a top pairing all-time defenseman following one great season? Letang has always had great offensive instincts but he's really only had one year where he played big minutes against great competition, from what I can see. What's really concerning is that in the year that the Pens won the cup, Letang played #2 minutes all season, but when the going got tough, he slid to #5, behind Gonchar, Scuderi, Orpik and Gill. At this point, he does not have a proven track record of being a real go-to guy.

- Has Jorgen Jonsson done enough offensively at any level to prove that he is a 2nd line caliber all-time player? He played one NHL season at age 27 and scored 31 points. He has been in an impressive 127 major international games, but scored just 59 points in them. and he has three offensive seasons in the swedish elite league that can be considered significant: when he was 3rd in 1998, 4th in 2001, and 10th in 2004. He played at a time when the vast majority of top swedish players played in the NHL, so he did not have a lot of top competition there, either. Superb dominance in the elite league, I'd certainly consider - say, 10 top-10 seasons, five top-5s, or a couple scoring titles, but his resume there is not too strong. I'd be very concerned about his ability to put up points in an all-time context when he wasn't very dominant at doing it in real life, at any level.

- Vlach had 53 points in 50 international games. However, it was from 1957 to 1964, so that makes it tougher to understand. I realize my own Evgeny Groshev had a similar PPG average in the same tournaments at the same time, and that he is somewhat of a question mark. But we know a lot more about Groshev's domestic dominance than we do of Vlach's. Stats are really sparse, and all I can tell you is he was 10th in scoring at the age of 35 in 1965.

- My concerns about Augusta have been documented already. Never a factor in golden hockey stick voting. Never near the scoring leaders in the Czech league. 15 points in 45 international games despite apparently having very strong linemates. Klapac, I like. Novak is decent.

- Nummelin is hard to understand. thanks to his international play I will give him the benefit of the doubt. It is really strange how he came back to the NHL at 34, and was the #2 defenseman on a pretty strong Wild team that made the playoffs, when six years prior, he was barely a #6 for a terrible Columbus team at age 28.

- Ernie McLea was 5th in AHAC scoring in 1897, and nowhere near the leaders any other time. Am I missing something?

- Loughlin lasted 7 seasons at the top levels of hockey, not too bad, though there are still better pre-WW2 defensemen being named in the A draft and undrafteds thread.

- I'm not sure Gord Lane even has the resume of a Cale Hulse, Colin Campbell or Dean Kennedy. Might be just me, though.

- Do you have a PP quarterback? Letang is one in real life, but doesn't have an all-timer's resume yet: he had 24 PPP last year, which was great, but aside from that never had more than 11. Jason Woolley, as useless as he may otherwise be, had 7 seasons with 15-22 PP points, and that was all dead puck era, too.

- Love your bottom six forwards. They can win the series for you. Not a single complaint there, except that I find it impossible to comment on Edgar Dey. The bottom six is the highlight of your team.

Rob Scuderi 01-10-2012 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 42219399)
- Do you have a PP quarterback? Letang is one in real life, but doesn't have an all-timer's resume yet: he had 24 PPP last year, which was great, but aside from that never had more than 11. Jason Woolley, as useless as he may otherwise be, had 7 seasons with 15-22 PP points, and that was all dead puck era, too.

I was wondering this as well. Letang's actually not a very good PPQB either. He has a great shot, amazing wheels that let him carry the puck into the offensive zone very well, and isn't too shabby at keeping pucks in the zone (especially for being on his offside during most of the PPs). But he's just not a guy you can run a PP around or have him serve as the primary puck-mover like Gonchar has done so well throughout his career. In fact, you see Malkin or Sullivan getting that role now for the Pens whereas Letang is more of a complimentary guy.

Letang is a great shooter and decent at sneaking in for a one-timer but imo VanI and Hedberg would be best served pairing him with someone like Nummelin who can feed him the puck and serve as the primary PPQB.

VanIslander 01-10-2012 07:40 AM

Seventieslord with the majority of his criticisms of the Engineers:

http://www.moviespad.com/photos/luck...llis-b4e8b.jpg

Dead center with several of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 42219399)
Love your bottom six forwards. They can win the series for you. Not a single complaint there, except that I find it impossible to comment on Edgar Dey. The bottom six is the highlight of your team.

Bottom-6 quality is always something I try to uncover. You yourself stole Miller early (Hagman and Huber certainly would have made our squad as well). Miller was earmarked for third line right wing for dang sure!! Instead, we have Wares, which works, and the other Bottom-6 RWer Dey is a bottom-6 utility forward, not a first choice. His intangibles are questionable, though he has speed and clutch play and has succeeded at the top level of competition in his era, and certainly was in demand by multiple top clubs of his time, though with character issues to offset his talent. He is a true wild card. Fortunately, a fourth line role means he can be minimized if disruptive, ridden if performing.

Hobnobs 01-10-2012 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 42219399)
- Toni Lydman is excellent. One of the best defensemen in this draft. But, is Kris Letang ready to be a top pairing all-time defenseman following one great season? Letang has always had great offensive instincts but he's really only had one year where he played big minutes against great competition, from what I can see. What's really concerning is that in the year that the Pens won the cup, Letang played #2 minutes all season, but when the going got tough, he slid to #5, behind Gonchar, Scuderi, Orpik and Gill. At this point, he does not have a proven track record of being a real go-to guy.

- Has Jorgen Jonsson done enough offensively at any level to prove that he is a 2nd line caliber all-time player? He played one NHL season at age 27 and scored 31 points. He has been in an impressive 127 major international games, but scored just 59 points in them. and he has three offensive seasons in the swedish elite league that can be considered significant: when he was 3rd in 1998, 4th in 2001, and 10th in 2004. He played at a time when the vast majority of top swedish players played in the NHL, so he did not have a lot of top competition there, either. Superb dominance in the elite league, I'd certainly consider - say, 10 top-10 seasons, five top-5s, or a couple scoring titles, but his resume there is not too strong. I'd be very concerned about his ability to put up points in an all-time context when he wasn't very dominant at doing it in real life, at any level.

- Vlach had 53 points in 50 international games. However, it was from 1957 to 1964, so that makes it tougher to understand. I realize my own Evgeny Groshev had a similar PPG average in the same tournaments at the same time, and that he is somewhat of a question mark. But we know a lot more about Groshev's domestic dominance than we do of Vlach's. Stats are really sparse, and all I can tell you is he was 10th in scoring at the age of 35 in 1965.

- My concerns about Augusta have been documented already. Never a factor in golden hockey stick voting. Never near the scoring leaders in the Czech league. 15 points in 45 international games despite apparently having very strong linemates. Klapac, I like. Novak is decent.

- Nummelin is hard to understand. thanks to his international play I will give him the benefit of the doubt. It is really strange how he came back to the NHL at 34, and was the #2 defenseman on a pretty strong Wild team that made the playoffs, when six years prior, he was barely a #6 for a terrible Columbus team at age 28.

- Ernie McLea was 5th in AHAC scoring in 1897, and nowhere near the leaders any other time. Am I missing something?

- Loughlin lasted 7 seasons at the top levels of hockey, not too bad, though there are still better pre-WW2 defensemen being named in the A draft and undrafteds thread.

- I'm not sure Gord Lane even has the resume of a Cale Hulse, Colin Campbell or Dean Kennedy. Might be just me, though.

- Do you have a PP quarterback? Letang is one in real life, but doesn't have an all-timer's resume yet: he had 24 PPP last year, which was great, but aside from that never had more than 11. Jason Woolley, as useless as he may otherwise be, had 7 seasons with 15-22 PP points, and that was all dead puck era, too.

- Love your bottom six forwards. They can win the series for you. Not a single complaint there, except that I find it impossible to comment on Edgar Dey. The bottom six is the highlight of your team.

I would dub him this drafts answer to Brind'amour. He quietly sits back on a supporting but important role and take the defensive responsibillity while producing offensively. In SEL he was mostly used as a first line center though and with success. He was a consistant force offensively but never risked anything defensively. Its hard to assess him in best on best because he was used as a checker for Tre Kronor in the olympic games. I think hes also meant to have a bit of a laidback playmaking role on that second line.

Edit: Forgot your last point in your argument. He was second in points in 98. He was the cataclysm of FBKs offense and a major reason Prestberg had those productive seasons (he also revitalised Jantunens offense iirc).

MadArcand 01-10-2012 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobnobs (Post 42224559)
He was the cataclysm of FBKs offense

I'd hope not. :laugh:

Hedberg 01-10-2012 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 42219399)
- I'm not sure Gord Lane even has the resume of a Cale Hulse, Colin Campbell or Dean Kennedy. Might be just me, though.

While obviously the Islanders would have won with any depth defender in NHL history, it could be argued that Lane's experience is of value to the team. However, I would think Levo would probably get a chance from the coaching staff sometime in the series.

seventieslord 01-11-2012 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedberg (Post 42245365)
While obviously the Islanders would have won with any depth defender in NHL history, it could be argued that Lane's experience is of value to the team.

You are right, I just don't know to what degree! that's why it's so tough to get a good handle on his value, perhaps more than any other NHL player in this draft. I don't want to go as far as saying it's just giving him credit for "being there"... I mean, he did play in all those playoff games...

Iain Fyffe 01-11-2012 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 42057153)
You said LW "IIRC", so I explained he played "point" too. I didn't know he also played the more defensive position of "coverpoint".

Sorry for the confusion. He did play point before moving to forward.

Cover-point is the less defensive position, though. Point played in front of the goalie, and cover-point in front of the point. Cover-point was an all-round position, and the best offence+defence combination players often played there.

Edit: Russell played cover-point when in Pittsburgh. That's what I was thinking of.

seventieslord 01-12-2012 12:47 AM

Interesting... we need to start paying more attention to whether some older guys played more as point or cover point, it can probably be used to guess at some of their attributes where needed.


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