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-   -   Carter/Richards production vs. new guys (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1081193)

Guffaw 01-15-2012 07:07 AM

Carter/Richards production vs. new guys
 
I remember a bunch of people saying the trades were bad moves by the Flyers and that Homer was an "idiot". There were no shortage of whiners on this board. At this point I don't think there's any question the Flyers won both trades and the sentimental whiners were wrong. Not only are they better now, but look at the average age of those 4 players. Not one of them plays on the top line or top PP unit and has inflated numbers due to Giroux.

What's that Carter was hurt? So was Schenn and that's part of my point. He's always hurt.

Points
Voracek 26
Simmonds 23
Couts 16
Schenn 3
Total 68
Avg. age 21

Richards 26
Carter 17
Total 43
Avg. age 27

Spongolium* 01-15-2012 07:20 AM

That's still 4 players production against 2 ;)

Even still, I'm happy with the trades.

flyersfan187 01-15-2012 07:24 AM

It doesn't matter about production. The off season was about trying to build a winning team through building our team chemistry. Richards and Carter both did not get along with the coach and did not like his system.

The Carter trade has turned out pretty nice with getting Couts in the draft and Voracek has been a good solid role player with us. I still would like to see what kind of contract he gets in the off season as Carter was signed long term on a discounted cost.

The Richards trade is tough to say. Richards was one of our better leaders on the team in the past and shown the ability to get the team to come together on big hits and properly timed fights. Simmonds is good at what he does but he will be a 2nd/3rd line player in his career. Schenn is still a wait and see but he has potential to be a Richards like player in his future.

All in all we got younger, cheaper contracts and was trying to build the team chemistry in that process while getting rid of the current bad apples. It is still too early to tell who won the deal, but currently I believe it will work out for every team involved.

Mgkibbles 01-15-2012 07:38 AM

Plus the combined cap hit of Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier and Schenn is around $8.5 million. Richards and Carter's combined cap hit is about $10.9. So we have more depth, and more scoring, for less money. If I was a girl I'd be wet right now.

FlyersFan61290 01-15-2012 07:41 AM

There was already a thread like this. like last week i think

Krishna 01-15-2012 07:52 AM

Id still undo the richards trade :(

Guffaw 01-15-2012 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spongolium (Post 42517511)
That's still 4 players production against 2 ;)

Even still, I'm happy with the trades.

Knew that was comin. Here ya go big guy.

Simmonds + Voracek= 49pts. 22.5 yrs old

Carter + Richards= 43pts. 27 yrs. old

That factoring out two top 8 draft pics in Couts and Schenn:shakehead

RJ8812 01-15-2012 08:20 AM

this again?

move on guys. no sense rubbing it in that we don't need either player

Guffaw 01-15-2012 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mgkibbles (Post 42517669)
Plus the combined cap hit of Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier and Schenn is around $8.5 million. Richards and Carter's combined cap hit is about $10.9. So we have more depth, and more scoring, for less money. If I was a girl I'd be wet right now.

Absolutely. They were two genius moves. Better now and restocked for the future. That's not easy to do.

Guffaw 01-15-2012 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 (Post 42517691)
There was already a thread like this. like last week i think

I wouldn't know. I live in the Rink forum.

Just hoping the whiner sees this that argued with me right after the trades happened. Now if I could just find the girl(Flyers fan)in Dewey Beach that laughed at my JAGR shirt and told me he sucked and was too old all night back in July.:nod:

LePalle 01-15-2012 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ8812 (Post 42518075)
this again?

move on guys. no sense rubbing it in that we don't need either player

Rubbing it in? I see no rubbing anything in.

This thread is just being positive about our team. Why is that a bad thing?

dookie88 01-15-2012 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guffaw (Post 42518071)
Knew that was comin. Here ya go big guy.

Simmonds + Voracek= 49pts. 22.5 yrs old

Carter + Richards= 43pts. 27 yrs. old

That factoring out two top 8 draft pics in Couts and Schenn:shakehead

Games played:
Simmonds + Voracek = 43 + 43 = 86

Carter + Richards = 30 + 37 = 67

Jester 01-15-2012 08:41 AM

The Carter trade is looking quite good, largely because Couturier fell to us. The Richards one... not so much, but we will have to see over time. If you don't believe me, go read the Kings board. Youll remember all the **** Ruchards did that will never show up on the scoresheet.

SeanCWombBroom 01-15-2012 09:16 AM

I liked both trades, being cautiously optimistic about both, and being a huge Richards fan (and former defender) was still optimistic about the trade. So much of it hinges on Schenn. The Carter trade looks like a slamdunk. Cooter is at least worth Carter by himself. Throw in Voracek, who looks like Giroux after a hard night out on the town, and is a huge upgrade over Leino and is a much more decent puck possession player. I would like to see the Flyers strengthen their puck possession.

That being said: Richards and Carter had "intangibles" that are hard to measure (such as Carter's ability to create space for himself) and are certainly really good forwards. Richard's amazing PK work and control of the center of ice near the blue line is hard to measure, but since the trade is this team performing better halfway through?

Just for fun (not including pp / pk since most time is 5on5--if someone wants to add that -- sweet):

Last year's team:

Goals for 5on5: 185
Goals against 5on5: 150
GF/60 5on5: 2.9
Shots For/60: 31.6
GA/60 5on5: 2.3
Shot's against/60: 30.3

This year's team:

Goals for 5on5: 98
Goals against 5on5: 90
GF/60 5on5: 3.1
Shots for/60: 32.1
GA/60: 2.8
Shot's against/60: 30.0

TL/DR: This year's team looks a bit better on offense (so much for that problem), and a little worse defensively.

Guffaw 01-15-2012 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookie88 (Post 42518257)
Games played:
Simmonds + Voracek = 43 + 43 = 86

Carter + Richards = 30 + 37 = 67

Your proving my point. Carter is fragile. He's always hurt. Part of a players value is his age and durability.

Make a point instead of nitpicking. Are you arguing the trades did not make the Flyers a stronger franchise overall? If you are that's a tough argument to support.

Guffaw 01-15-2012 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 42518337)
The Carter trade is looking quite good, largely because Couturier fell to us. The Richards one... not so much, but we will have to see over time. If you don't believe me, go read the Kings board. Youll remember all the **** Ruchards did that will never show up on the scoresheet.

Richards not so much? How so?

Simmonds alone has only 3 less points. Brayden Schenn is 20 yrs. old. Richards salary dump opened up money for other players.

Richards is a smaller physical player that gets by on work ethic. That's not an easy way to play. He will not have a long career as an elite player if he's even at that level now. I believe you've already seen the best of him. Schenn....not so much

Guffaw 01-15-2012 10:17 AM

Intangibles. They didn't win a cup with them and were dead last in prospects.

They now lead the league in rookie points and remain a contender. What's the argument? There is none other than ones based on emotional bias.:shakehead

YuioIklo 01-15-2012 10:19 AM

It's 4 roster spot against 2... so your stats aren't valid. But I do agree that the trades were good. The way Couturier plays as a 19 years old, he's on pace for near 20 goals while playing on the 4th line and plays very well defensively, I see no reason why he wouldn't become better than Carter in a few years. And if Schenn doesn't become injury prone, I see him becoming at least as good as Richards, but it's not as clear as Couturier yet though.

The only problem is : They're all centers. Couturier could become a 1st line center, but that spot is obviously G's spot. That's why I'd rather see a winger like JVR becoming a all star player. But whatever, having 2 superstars centers on 2 lines would also be awesome (or even 3).

Codith 01-15-2012 10:20 AM

The Carter trade was a definite win, getting Couts alone will payoff way quicker, then add in Voracek. Carter seems to be the new Mr.Glass.

Richards trade is still up in the air, I like what Simmonds brings, and Schenn could turn out to be a stud, but Richie is still a better overall player right now.

dookie88 01-15-2012 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guffaw (Post 42519955)
Richards not so much? How so?

Simmonds alone has only 3 less points. Brayden Schenn is 20 yrs. old. Richards salary dump opened up money for other players.

Richards is a smaller physical player that gets by on work ethic. That's not an easy way to play. He will not have a long career as an elite player if he's even at that level now. I believe you've already seen the best of him. Schenn....not so much

Yeah, Bryz has looked so good.
:sarcasm:

I like the Carter trade, but trading Richards, from a hockey perspective wasn't clever.
He's still better than anyone we have except Giroux, his points this year wouldn't be the same with us. He's playing for the freaking Kings, afterall.
But I get why he was traded, he probably would have been sour if he sticked around just because Carter was shipped out.
Just to say we are better off without him isn't true, you look at the way we play defense and you recognize that we miss someone like him.

dookie88 01-15-2012 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guffaw (Post 42519871)
Your proving my point. Carter is fragile. He's always hurt. Part of a players value is his age and durability.

Make a point instead of nitpicking. Are you arguing the trades did not make the Flyers a stronger franchise overall? If you are that's a tough argument to support.

Then don't go ahead and compare points while not mentioning the number of games they played in. Go read a statistics book or something.

WeekendAtBernies 01-15-2012 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 42518337)
The Carter trade is looking quite good, largely because Couturier fell to us. The Richards one... not so much, but we will have to see over time. If you don't believe me, go read the Kings board. Youll remember all the **** Ruchards did that will never show up on the scoresheet.

Yes, I do remember this. To a very similar extent, it's the same thing Wayne Simmonds does night in and night out that will never show up on the scoresheet.

He has been quite similar to Richie in scoring this year and he's also the one who constantly does hard work in the corners, lays giant hits, KOs guys in fights, works hard on the backcheck, etc.

Kings fans were totally right when they said that Simmonds would become a fan favorite.

If there's a player I miss in that trade, it's obviously Richie... he was an all effort player and you just can't have enough of those, but the addition of Wayne Simmonds AND the bright future of Brayden Schenn AND the 2nd round pick in a deep draft more than compensate us for his loss IMO. I think we'll end up a much stronger team as a result of it.

And the Carter thing you can't even argue. Holmgren was a thief there. You could make an argument that Vorabeast alone is going to go on to a more promising career here in Philly than Carter will in C-Bus. Then you add in Sean Couturier (who I consider the 2nd most untouchable guy on our team after Giroux), that's just GRAVY... and a whole lot of it.

Jester 01-15-2012 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guffaw (Post 42519955)
Richards not so much? How so?

Simmonds alone has only 3 less points. Brayden Schenn is 20 yrs. old. Richards salary dump opened up money for other players.

Richards is a smaller physical player that gets by on work ethic. That's not an easy way to play. He will not have a long career as an elite player if he's even at that level now. I believe you've already seen the best of him. Schenn....not so much

Because Richards is an above average player in all situations, and one of the best PKers of his generation. Simmons and Schenn's aren't replacing that. This without getting into your flat comparison that isn't really grappling with injuries.

If you don't think the Flyers would be better right now with Ruchards giving this team a strong two way line that can actually stop the opposition, I don't know what to say. Carter was always better than his detractors claimed, but not the all around force. Giroux has been having an epic season thus far, but is barely keeping himself above even. That line would be minus if not for Hartnell, who played a similar role for Briere and Leino.

Schenn needs to stop getting hurt and become a very good player before we can even remotely consider that deal a win. Richards is an extremely rare combination of offense, defense, and physicality in the modern NHL.

Jester 01-15-2012 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandlansd (Post 42520887)
Yes, I do remember this. To a very similar extent, it's the same thing Wayne Simmonds does night in and night out that will never show up on the scoresheet.

He has been quite similar to Richie in scoring this year and he's also the one who constantly does hard work in the corners, lays giant hits, KOs guys in fights, works hard on the backcheck, etc.

Kings fans were totally right when they said that Simmonds would become a fan favorite.

If there's a player I miss in that trade, it's obviously Richie... he was an all effort player and you just can't have enough of those, but the addition of Wayne Simmonds AND the bright future of Brayden Schenn AND the 2nd round pick in a deep draft more than compensate us for his loss IMO. I think we'll end up a much stronger team as a result of it.

And the Carter thing you can't even argue. Holmgren was a thief there. You could make an argument that Vorabeast alone is going to go on to a more promising career here in Philly than Carter will in C-Bus. Then you add in Sean Couturier (who I consider the 2nd most untouchable guy on our team after Giroux), that's just GRAVY... and a whole lot of it.

Simmonds is a good player, but he's a complimentary player. He doesn't kill penalties, isn't a center, etc. Schenn is going to make or break that deal.

WeekendAtBernies 01-15-2012 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookie88 (Post 42520725)
Yeah, Bryz has looked so good.
:sarcasm:

I like the Carter trade, but trading Richards, from a hockey perspective wasn't clever.
He's still better than anyone we have except Giroux, his points this year wouldn't be the same with us. He's playing for the freaking Kings, afterall.
But I get why he was traded, he probably would have been sour if he sticked around just because Carter was shipped out.
Just to say we are better off without him isn't true, you look at the way we play defense and you recognize that we miss someone like him.

Richards played with guys like Anze Kopitar and Dustin Brown for much of his time in LA so far. He also played on the first powerplay w/ defensemen like Doughty and Johnson. Acting like the Kings are terrible is a total joke. For most of his time there, he played w/ better teammates than he would've had he been in Philadelphia.

Had he still been here, he would've likely been Centering some line consisting of (injured) JVR or Read on the LW and Voracek on the RW. I think JVR will be amazing down the line after he gets whatever surgery he needs and recovers and I think Voracek is promising, but there's no doubt in my mind that Kopitar and Brown blow both of those guys out of the water.


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