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TheShaneTrain 01-20-2012 03:36 PM

Toughness Concern
 
hey guys (and gals),

i don't post much on here (obviously), but i was wondering if anyone shared my concerns regarding this teams toughness...

is anyone else at least slightly concerned that 2 of the last 3 fights the flyers have had, have involved 2 guys who i don't think any of us want to see dropping the gloves? after giroux's "fight" last night and danny b's scrap 2 weeks ago, the response by their teammates was practically non-existent.

now i'm not talking about all-out goonery, or staged nonsense for that matter. hell, i'm not really worried about the lack of fights at all. but what does concern me is when the superstar (not shelley) athletes are stepping outside of their roles and potentially comprimising their health.

the "oomph" and no-nonsense mentallity this team seemed to have early in the season has practically disappeared and if we expect this team to have any kind of shot at taking out NY or boston, someone has to step up real soon.


thoughts?

Beef Invictus 01-20-2012 03:38 PM

What's tougher, a team where the skilled players fight their own battles and stand up for themselves? Or one where they hide behind enforcers?

TheShaneTrain 01-20-2012 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beef Invictus (Post 42801989)
What's tougher, a team where the skilled players fight their own battles and stand up for themselves? Or one where they hide behind enforcers?

interesting point. i should have probably been more specific, though.

i don't necessarily mean they're wrong for not hiding behind an enforcer. i get a huge kick out of watching these guys drop the gloves. but out of curiousity, if giroux breaks his hand/wrist on reese's helmet last night, what would you say?

there are plenty of "tough" guys on this team...rinaldo, simmonds, even hartnell and Z to an extent. if they want to hang in there and be physical, take opponents to task along the boards, and generally just not get pushed around, these guys have to step up their game

(i was just watching "highlights" from last years playoff series with boston, so you can imagine what fears i have heading into the post season)

and no, i don't want shelley remotely close to this team

Jtown 01-20-2012 03:50 PM

I don't think Fighting means toughness. IN fact really tough teams never have to fight because the other team doesn't want any part of that. And besides is there a correlations between toughness and winning? Id rather have a smart skilled team that plays as a unit than a tough team.

sobrien 01-20-2012 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheShaneTrain (Post 42802389)
interesting point. i should have probably been more specific, though.

i don't necessarily mean they're wrong for not hiding behind an enforcer. i get a huge kick out of watching these guys drop the gloves. but out of curiousity, if giroux breaks his hand/wrist on reese's helmet last night, what would you say?

there are plenty of "tough" guys on this team...rinaldo, simmonds, even hartnell and Z to an extent. if they want to hang in there and be physical, take opponents to task along the boards, and generally just not get pushed around, these guys have to step up their game

(i was just watching "highlights" from last years playoff series with boston, so you can imagine what fears i have heading into the post season)

and no, i don't want shelley remotely close to this team

Is an enforcer going to stop Giroux's hand from being broken after the fact? I think this team is plenty tough enough. But there are always fans who are constantly bloodthirsty and expect vengeance when it's not a good time for that to happen. Best way to get back at a guy is with a good, clean hit. What if Shelley drops the gloves with Reese and gets KO'd? What if it's a hug-fest? Message not sent.

TheLegendkiller 01-20-2012 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jtown (Post 42802457)
I don't think Fighting means toughness. IN fact really tough teams never have to fight because the other team doesn't want any part of that. And besides is there a correlations between toughness and winning? Id rather have a smart skilled team that plays as a unit than a tough team.


Why cant you be both? Toughness is whats going to win the east. Boston and the Rangers. Toughness will NEED to be added to take those teams on. If you don't think that's the case you're kidding yourself.

And back to the OP its good our star players fight, but they shouldn't have to. So many other guys need to fight before Giroux and Briere do. And Giroux going up against some random AHL guy should have been a message to somebody else on the team to step up and drop the gloves.

TheLegendkiller 01-20-2012 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sobrien (Post 42802887)
Is an enforcer going to stop Giroux's hand from being broken after the fact? I think this team is plenty tough enough. But there are always fans who are constantly bloodthirsty and expect vengeance when it's not a good time for that to happen. Best way to get back at a guy is with a good, clean hit. What if Shelley drops the gloves with Reese and gets KO'd? What if it's a hug-fest? Message not sent.

Now you're just hating on Shelley. I doubt Reese KO's him. :laugh:

TheShaneTrain 01-20-2012 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jtown (Post 42802457)
I don't think Fighting means toughness. IN fact really tough teams never have to fight because the other team doesn't want any part of that. And besides is there a correlations between toughness and winning? Id rather have a smart skilled team that plays as a unit than a tough team.

i completely agree.

and fighting doesn't really mean toughness.

but IMO, they're lacking both.

the fighting thing triggered my look back to the boston series. this team was absolutely manhandled by boston last year. in their defense, a lot of teams get manhandled by boston.

in response to the tough teams never having to fight, i somewhat agree. however, the flyers are currently 3rd highest in the league in fighting majors. using that logic, we are lacking some serious toughness...right?

adversly, only two of the top 10 teams (columbus and anaheim) are currently out of a playoff spot.

i'm not saying a team that fights a bunch means they are tougher or are going to win more than teams that don't. my main concerns are injuries to skill players and the ability to play well against teams like ny or boston, which they haven't exactly done this year.

whether it be fights, huge hits, standing up for teammates...doesn't matter. IMO this team will not win any 7 game series against the likes of ny or boston if they can't hang in with their physicality.

Haute Couturier 01-20-2012 04:06 PM

I would prefer it if Giroux didn't fight, but no I'm not concerned with their toughness. I see no point in wasting a spot in the lineup on an 'enforcer' who can't play.


Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller (Post 42802917)
Why cant you be both? Toughness is whats going to win the east. Boston and the Rangers. Toughness will NEED to be added to take those teams on. If you don't think that's the case you're kidding yourself.

If Boston wins the East it's because they score more goals and prevent more goals than anyone else. It has nothing to do with how often they drop the gloves. BTW Boston is near the bottom of the league in hits so are they really that tough?

TheLegendkiller 01-20-2012 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine (Post 42803187)
I would prefer it if Giroux didn't fight, but no I'm not concerned with their toughness. I see no point in wasting a spot in the lineup on an 'enforcer' who can't play.



If Boston wins the East it's because they score more goals and prevent more goals than anyone else. It has nothing to do with how often they drop the gloves. BTW Boston is near the bottom of the league in hits so are they really that tough?

Its not about the enforcer. Boston's toughness is the fact that they have big physical forwards that take the ice surface away from the other players. They play physical and use that to win one on one battles constantly. I'm just saying that we have some dmen that aren't small dudes and need to play physical against a team like Boston. He have forwards who have the size that can play physical as well. I don't mean fight every game. The team just needs to show the willingness to battle physically with those teams.

TheShaneTrain 01-20-2012 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libertine (Post 42803187)
I see no point in wasting a spot in the lineup on an 'enforcer' who can't play.
?

never said we should. i totally agree.

which is why i referenced the everyday guys:

simmonds
hartnell
z
bourdon
rinaldo...although he takes care of his end pretty damn well

Quote:

Originally Posted by sobrien (Post 42802887)
Is an enforcer going to stop Giroux's hand from being broken after the fact?.

nope.

but a consistent physical presence from the rest of the team might prevent the fight from happening in the first place. i think we saw an anomaly with giroux shedding the mitts against the isles. he's clearly frustrated with his game and has stepped up physically (seemingly one of the only ones who have). could the fight have happened regardless? sure. however, if reese thought maybe, just maybe he'd have to pay for it later, he may not have obliged. before anyone gets ahead of me, i don't mean jump the guy or send an "enforcer" after him. hit harder, hit later, challenge him...anything would have been better than no response by the rest of the team.

GKJ 01-20-2012 04:39 PM

Hartnell
Simmonds
Bourdon
Coburn
Talbot
4th line

We do not lack toughness. If the Flyers would have come back to win (like when Briere got in a fight), this wouldn't be a concern. Giroux made a decision to fight. Didn't work this time. We do lack a guy who can win a fight as a role player, but we do not lack toughness. Move on.

TheShaneTrain 01-20-2012 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GKJ (Post 42804575)
Hartnell
Simmonds
Bourdon
Coburn
Talbot
4th line

We do not lack toughness. If the Flyers would have come back to win (like when Briere got in a fight), this wouldn't be a concern. Giroux made a decision to fight. Didn't work this time. We do lack a guy who can win a fight as a role player, but we do not lack toughness. Move on.

most of those guys i've mentioned. this team has the ability to be plenty tough, but what i've seen in the last month or so is a complete lack thereof. i'm not particularly ******** over giroux not doing well in a fight or fighting in general. maybe i shouldn't have led the first post off with a fighting reference...

i don't see the physicality that was there earlier in the year, and against aforementioned teams (ny and boston) something needs to change in order to beat them.

FlyersFan61290 01-20-2012 05:29 PM

I'm not concerned with the teams toughness necessarily. I'm more so concerned with their tendency to get out played physically. Rags and Boston (especially Boston) can flat out dominate the Flyers physically. Again I don't think that's toughness though. Hopefully some of the younger guys will put on some weight as they get older. Obviously JVR will get bigger but I think Simmonds needs to add about 15 lbs, Schenn and Couturier are still young and will fill out/bulk up in a couple years.

mirimon 01-20-2012 05:40 PM

I didn't have any problem with Brière's fight. Giroux fought out of frustration, while I might have preferred us to have played well enough to him not be frustrated, that's not always a bad thing either. I don't see why Reese would have to answer for that either, it was clearly Giroux who wanted the fight. I'm no fan of the star players being pampered though.

GKJ 01-20-2012 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheShaneTrain (Post 42804975)
most of those guys i've mentioned. this team has the ability to be plenty tough, but what i've seen in the last month or so is a complete lack thereof. i'm not particularly ******** over giroux not doing well in a fight or fighting in general. maybe i shouldn't have led the first post off with a fighting reference...

i don't see the physicality that was there earlier in the year, and against aforementioned teams (ny and boston) something needs to change in order to beat them.

I think you're confusing a lack of toughness for much better discipline. Lavy finally has this organization moving the way the rest of the world is.

TheLegendkiller 01-20-2012 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GKJ (Post 42807809)
I think you're confusing a lack of toughness for much better discipline. Lavy finally has this organization moving the way the rest of the world is.

Meh...I'd be happier if there was more NY Rangers-like physicality in our game and less shying away from the tough stuff.

FlyersFanSinceBirth 01-21-2012 01:26 AM

This team's toughness is definitely a concern for me. We have plenty of guys that can be tough if they want to be. They just aren't showing it. The lack of fighting kinda sucks but it definitely isn't the biggest problem. They need to be more physical. Finish your checks. Stand up for your teammates and yourself. If you have an opportunity to throw a big hit without getting yourself out of position then do it. This team, playing the way they are now, would be worn out by game 3 of a 7 game series with Boston.

WeekendAtBernies 01-21-2012 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersFanSinceBirth (Post 42826453)
This team's toughness is definitely a concern for me. We have plenty of guys that can be tough if they want to be. They just aren't showing it. The lack of fighting kinda sucks but it definitely isn't the biggest problem. They need to be more physical. Finish your checks. Stand up for your teammates and yourself. If you have an opportunity to throw a big hit without getting yourself out of position then do it. This team, playing the way they are now, would be worn out by game 3 of a 7 game series with Boston.

Agree.

WeekendAtBernies 01-21-2012 01:55 AM

This team could definitely use a tough defenseman. The only one who even remotely plays w/ any kind of snarl in his game is Meszaros, and he's been terrible for most of the year.

Coburn plays like a midget, Timonen is a warrior, but the physical stuff just isn't his game, Bourdon is a rookie, and Carle is an offensive guy.

This team desperately needs some snarl on the back-end.

Totally Radivojevic 01-21-2012 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersFanSinceBirth (Post 42826453)
This team's toughness is definitely a concern for me. We have plenty of guys that can be tough if they want to be. They just aren't showing it. The lack of fighting kinda sucks but it definitely isn't the biggest problem. They need to be more physical. Finish your checks. Stand up for your teammates and yourself. If you have an opportunity to throw a big hit without getting yourself out of position then do it. This team, playing the way they are now, would be worn out by game 3 of a 7 game series with Boston.


Yup. Been playing some passive hockey lately. This has nothing to do with discipline, as Lavy said in 24/7 "we're a get up and go, grind the piss out of you team" and the NYI game was an absolute embarrassment. Played with no tenacity whatsoever, and that's a big reason why Rinaldo is important to have in the lineup. He always plays a fast, physical game. No half ass, pretend checks from him... when he hits you, it hurts.

Ironmanrulez 01-21-2012 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersFanSinceBirth (Post 42826453)
This team's toughness is definitely a concern for me. We have plenty of guys that can be tough if they want to be. They just aren't showing it. The lack of fighting kinda sucks but it definitely isn't the biggest problem. They need to be more physical. Finish your checks. Stand up for your teammates and yourself. If you have an opportunity to throw a big hit without getting yourself out of position then do it. This team, playing the way they are now, would be worn out by game 3 of a 7 game series with Boston.

100% that!!

Many other teams outplay us physically. And imo the team seems to don´t care about it at all. Hell the Islanders dominated us for the third consecutive time.... What the ****ing hell are the players thinking

CS 01-21-2012 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller (Post 42812197)
Meh...I'd be happier if there was more NY Rangers-like physicality in our game and less shying away from the tough stuff.

We're as tough and as physical as the Rangers.

We are not, however, as tough and physical as the Bruins right now.

Breeze 44 01-21-2012 08:06 AM

The Bruins and rangers forwards are bigger and more physical than our defenseman that's why I'm hoping to add 2 d-man by the deadline. Beaucheman and Gleason are my top choices....maybe Gill ( see how he shut down Malkin the other night). We need more crease clearing, stop running our goalie, can't get pushed away by a midget defenseman.

FlyersFan61290 01-21-2012 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breeze 44 (Post 42829517)
The Bruins and rangers forwards are bigger and more physical than our defenseman that's why I'm hoping to add 2 d-man by the deadline. Beaucheman and Gleason are my top choices....maybe Gill ( see how he shut down Malkin the other night). We need more crease clearing, stop running our goalie, can't get pushed away by a midget defenseman.

Beauchemin signed a 3yr extension, he's going nowhere.

i think trading for 2 d-men is a horrible idea anyway.


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