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-   -   Rumor: 2011-12 All Purpose Kings Trade Rumors and Proposals Thread IV (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1097215)

Telos 02-03-2012 01:52 PM

2011-12 All Purpose Kings Trade Rumors and Proposals Thread IV
 
Last thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1087477

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Seventyx7 02-03-2012 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Tebow (Post 43524441)
IMO Carter is very overrated. I say this as a Flyers fan I was thrilled when they moved him. I was originally disappointed they moved Richards but not even a 2nd thought on Carter. He just isn't that good and I don't think he would do much for the Kings offense.

That's what I have been trying to say! Appreciate the informative/anti-Carter post, from a Philly fan :handclap:.

jimmy1100 02-03-2012 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seventyx7 (Post 43528733)
That's what I have been trying to say! Appreciate the informative/anti-Carter post, from a Philly fan :handclap:.

A guy whose user name is Tim Tebow and says he was happy to see a guy who potted 115 goals in his last three seasons traded away from his team!?!

Hmmmmm...:sarcasm:

Seventyx7 02-03-2012 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy1100 (Post 43529077)
A guy whose user name is Tim Tebow and says he was happy to see a guy who potted 115 goals in his last three seasons traded away from his team!?!

Hmmmmm...:sarcasm:

Exactly, it means this guy is a winner and everything he says is absolutely right!! :sarcasm:

deeshamrock 02-03-2012 02:17 PM

Quote:

IMO Carter is very overrated. I say this as a Flyers fan I was thrilled when they moved him. I was originally disappointed they moved Richards but not even a 2nd thought on Carter. He just isn't that good and I don't think he would do much for the Kings offense.
As someone whose been watching the Flyers since 72, I agree. I've been hoping for a trade for the last 4 years. Immature, whines, bad attitude and anti clutch, piss poor playoff performer (21 points in 47 games) and even when he was on the ice, you didn't notice his shift. N0ot physical and seldom uses his size.


Quote:

A guy whose user name is Tim Tebow and says he was happy to see a guy who potted 115 goals in his last three seasons traded away from his team!?!

Hmmmmm...
It's not always about goals, it's about having heart and what it takes to be a winner, a total team player and sacrifice. If you are not willing to work for the guy on the bench next to you and give of yourself, you won't win. He has shown very little of anything but being selfish and immature.
There's valid rreasons why he's probably the least liked Flyer in recent history. After the trade, a poll when up on the HF Board in Phlly 'who will you miss more, Carter or Richards?"
Mike Richards got 96% of the vote.

King Richards 02-03-2012 03:09 PM

We have enough grit and character guys. We need someone who puts the puck in the net. Carter has proven himself in that department, bottom line.

Ziggy Stardust 02-03-2012 03:21 PM

I think the situation with Carter in LA would be quite different than what was expected of him in Philly. While the Flyers were deep with talent, Carter was one of the go-to guys so to speak when it came to scoring goals. He broke out as a point producer in his third pro season, playing with Umberger and Lupul.

After putting up 29 goals and 54 points (and as a centerman he had more goals than assists which is rare), he netted 46 goals the following season and 84 points, once again scoring more goals than assists. That is very unusual for a center. His linemate, Hartnell, netted 30 goals and 60 points and his other linemate, Lupul, scored 25 goals and 50 points. The line produced and Carter really was to go-to player that season. And mind you, Carter had a winger who handled the dirty work when he was playing with Umberger and later with Hartnell.

Now, if Carter is to enter the Kings, he's not going to have that extra added pressure to perform. It isn't expected of him to assume a leadership role, he just has to accomplish one thing, and that is getting pucks to the net. There are a few options for him to play with as well with Kopitar, Brown, Williams and Richards as possible linemates.

He's not a gritty player, never has been, never will be, but if he's netting goals and opening up space in the offensive zone for his linemates, then he is doing his job right. I think Philly expected him to be some hard nosed player which he never came to be. It's similar to the amount of flak Dustin Brown gets for not necessarily being the Adam Deadmarsh like power forward that many expected him to amount to.

Tim Tebow 02-03-2012 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy1100 (Post 43529077)
A guy whose user name is Tim Tebow and says he was happy to see a guy who potted 115 goals in his last three seasons traded away from his team!?!

Hmmmmm...:sarcasm:

Yes. Especially considering how promising the return looks with Couturier.

Like the other guy mentioned though you cannot just look at a players goals as the only way of evaluating a talent. Like I said in my original post Carter only scored a lot of goals because he takes an obnoxious amount of shots.

Think of it almost like fuel efficiency in a car. But instead of fuel you have the teams total offense. To get that production out of Carter he requires a large consumption of the teams total offense. Carter would be the NHL's version of the gas guzzling V8 Escalade. Sure Carter had 115 goals in his last 3 seasons with Philly but he took 996 shots on net, 1367 including his missed shots. (and this includes his career year 46 goal season. When sectioning out such small frames you can even make Cheechoo and Boyes look elite)

The point being is to get that kind of production from Carter you have to give him a lot of the teams offense.

For comparison the NHL's best goal scorer now is Stamkos. If Stamkos was given a similar percentage of the offense he would have 163 goals (48 more goals). A more realistic comparable player could be Danny Briere who often finishes just a tad behind Carter in goals but usually has about 100 fewer shots. Briere would have 149 goals (34 more goals). Or even current King Mike Richards. If Richards was given the same percentage stats indicate that Richards would have scored 115 goals (identical). Keep in mind as mentioned this includes Carter's unusual career year and the comparable players I am using there career stats including the bad development years I could make them even higher if I selected a set of 3 years for each.

Anyone can be Carter on the Kings, just give them the puck and tell them to shoot shoot shoot. Don't bother passing or playing defense or forechecking just shoot.

King Richards 02-03-2012 03:45 PM

The last part of your post is patently false. Anyone can be carter on the kings? Pretty sure we've tried shot mentality already.

Ziggy Stardust 02-03-2012 03:52 PM

I'd say Jarret Stoll has proven that not any player can be another Jeff Carter.

King Richards 02-03-2012 03:52 PM

Also, the specifics of your anti-Carter tirade are not a big deal on the Kings. All we do is forecheck, get possession, cycle, pass, cycle, pass more, cycle, turn it over. Have you seen our third line or PP before the last handful of games? We desperately need a trigger man.

Tim Tebow 02-03-2012 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Richards (Post 43534059)
The last part of your post is patently false. Anyone can be carter on the kings? Pretty sure we've tried shot mentality already.

I am saying Carter would not make the Kings offense any better because he only puts up big offensive numbers at the expense of the rest of the team.

Carter will score you 30 goals but he will only get 30 goals if he gets 300 shots.

Who was the last LA King to take 300-350 shots in a season?

The Kings average 31 shots a game. If you add Carter that average will stay around the same. The difference is Carter will take a large percentage of those shots meaning other players will get fewer shots.

Get it? If 1 individual Kings player starts shooting a lot more they will see an increase in goals as an individual but not more goals as a team.

King Richards 02-03-2012 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Tebow (Post 43534533)
I am saying Carter would not make the Kings offense any better because he only puts up big offensive numbers at the expense of the rest of the team.

Carter will score you 30 goals but he will only get 30 goals if he gets 300 shots.

Who was the last LA King to take 300-350 shots in a season?

The Kings average 31 shots a game. If you add Carter that average will stay around the same. The difference is Carter will take a large percentage of those shots meaning other players will get fewer shots.

Get it? If 1 individual Kings player starts shooting a lot more they will see an increase in goals as an individual but not more goals as a team.

So you would rather distribute those shots to Lewis, Richardson, Stoll, Penner, Loktionov? That's going to make the Kings better?

Ziggy Stardust 02-03-2012 04:04 PM

Looking at Carter's linemates, it seems like he wasn't the only player on his line putting up decent numbers. Despite all the negative things said about Carter, his shot created plenty of scoring opportunities for his linemates. Hartnell has had only one 30 goal season (about to be two the way he's playing with Giroux and Jagr), and that was when he was playing with Carter. Umberger broke out into a 50 point scorer playing with Carter as well.

Hell, a lot of what has been said about Carter was being said about Jagr when he was with the Capitals. Bad attitude, pouty, selfish, only cared about himself, didn't get along with coaches, etc. Look at Jagr now. I don't think any Flyer fans would say he's anything like that anymore, and that's because on Philly, Jagr doesn't have to be "the guy." That title now belongs to Giroux.

Johnny Utah 02-03-2012 04:08 PM

F Carter...what it would cost to get Moen....or Kostitsyn....

Ziggy Stardust 02-03-2012 04:09 PM

Ya guys think Evander Kane is enjoying Winnipeg?
Quote:

LW Evander Kane was asked by the Jets to lie low in the social media world after engaging fans last month over rumors he skipped out on restaurant tabs and suffered his concussion after getting punched out in a nightclub. It has gotten so bad for Kane that an "I Hate Evander Kane" page had sprung up on Facebook and had already attracted 50 members, according to the Winnipeg Sun. Kane also had to remove his personal Facebook page amidst numerous online attacks.
(Yahoo! Sports)

Tim Tebow 02-03-2012 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Richards (Post 43534741)
So you would rather distribute those shots to Lewis, Richardson, Stoll, Penner, Loktionov? That's going to make the Kings better?

Nope. I am saying both answers are wrong. At the very best I think Carter may move the Kings up like 1 or 2 spots in the NHL's goals scored standings.

Obviously I was exaggerating when I said anyone can be Carter but the point remains. Carter is an average scorer who puts up above average numbers by taking up a huge percentage of the teams shots. I see Carter's impact as no different then an average 20 goal scorer.

I am simply saying Carter will not fix or noticeably help the Kings offense. He left Philadelphia, Philadelphia's offensive numbers went up. He went to Columbus, Columbus' offensive numbers went down.

ScoreZeGoals 02-03-2012 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust (Post 43535219)
Ya guys think Evander Kane is enjoying Winnipeg?

I'd love to have Kane, problem is that we make awful trading partners

Cook24 02-03-2012 04:13 PM

You don't want Carter, but you want Kostitsyn...man oh man.

savemefromtears 02-03-2012 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust (Post 43535219)
Ya guys think Evander Kane is enjoying Winnipeg?

Wow, hot in the city tonight!, eh?

Johnny Utah 02-03-2012 04:14 PM

Kostitsyn is a UFA my friend. If he sucks, he walks. Carter is here until I am almost 50 years old, and I am in my 30's now.

MsWoof 02-03-2012 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deeshamrock (Post 43529853)
As someone whose been watching the Flyers since 72, I agree. I've been hoping for a trade for the last 4 years. Immature, whines, bad attitude and anti clutch, piss poor playoff performer (21 points in 47 games) and even when he was on the ice, you didn't notice his shift. N0ot physical and seldom uses his size.




It's not always about goals, it's about having heart and what it takes to be a winner, a total team player and sacrifice. If you are not willing to work for the guy on the bench next to you and give of yourself, you won't win. He has shown very little of anything but being selfish and immature.
There's valid rreasons why he's probably the least liked Flyer in recent history. After the trade, a poll when up on the HF Board in Phlly 'who will you miss more, Carter or Richards?"
Mike Richards got 96% of the vote.

He was injured in the playoffs and in hindsight, should have not bothered playing because everyone rips him for it. As far as the poll goes, who wouldn't pick Richards over Carter? Nobody would. But if you also read the Flyers' HF board and every newspaper article written in the past year in Philly, almost all the comments were very anti-Richards.

Tim Tebow 02-03-2012 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust (Post 43534999)
Looking at Carter's linemates, it seems like he wasn't the only player on his line putting up decent numbers. Despite all the negative things said about Carter, his shot created plenty of scoring opportunities for his linemates. Hartnell has had only one 30 goal season (about to be two the way he's playing with Giroux and Jagr), and that was when he was playing with Carter. Umberger broke out into a 50 point scorer playing with Carter as well.

Hell, a lot of what has been said about Carter was being said about Jagr when he was with the Capitals. Bad attitude, pouty, selfish, only cared about himself, didn't get along with coaches, etc. Look at Jagr now. I don't think any Flyer fans would say he's anything like that anymore, and that's because on Philly, Jagr doesn't have to be "the guy." That title now belongs to Giroux.

Richards, Briere, and Giroux all had declining numbers playing with Carter. He does not work with playmakers, probably because he does not take 1-timers or slap shots in general. He has almost exclusively played with power forwards or other snipers. Umberger also rarely played with Carter. Umberger really kind of bounced around the lines with Philly playing everywhere from 1st line to 4th line. The year Umberger scored 50 Carter was playing with Hartnell and Lupul. Hartnell came from the Predators where offense does not exist. In his first season without Carter he is having his best offensive season. Lupul's first healthy season since leaving Philly is also ironically his best season.


Comparing Jagr and Carter is also a bit of a stretch. Carter was also never "the man" nor was he half the player Jagr was. Jagr struggling is better then almost ever good Carter season. Not to mention Jagr still showed up when it mattered. Playoff success all over, Carter has been a train wreck in the playoffs every year. Carter still isn't the man ether, Rick Nash is.

ScoreZeGoals 02-03-2012 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Tebow (Post 43535269)
Nope. I am saying both answers are wrong. At the very best I think Carter may move the Kings up like 1 or 2 spots in the NHL's goals scored standings.

Obviously I was exaggerating when I said anyone can be Carter but the point remains. Carter is an average scorer who puts up above average numbers by taking up a huge percentage of the teams shots. I see Carter's impact as no different then an average 20 goal scorer.

I am simply saying Carter will not fix or noticeably help the Kings offense. He left Philadelphia, Philadelphia's offensive numbers went up. He went to Columbus, Columbus' offensive numbers went down.

Hmm, so it's going to take Carter 300 shots (playing with below average playmakers) to reach 30 goals? Do you know who has 150 shots and 15 goals right now? Anze Kopitar. Adding another goal scorer on the level of Kopitar isn't going to scare anyone away.

As for you last point about Philly scoring being up and Columbus being down, that only works if you look at things in a vacuum.

Holden Caulfield 02-03-2012 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust (Post 43535219)
Ya guys think Evander Kane is enjoying Winnipeg?

Every one of the allegations made against Kane have proven to be false. The incident in the bar NEVER HAPPENED and the restaurant issue first came up when somebody brought a sign to a game...in OTTAWA. Was then further spread but a nobody posting on twitter who got pissy because Kane made fun of him on twitter.

One of the problems Kane had was that he liked to hit back on twitter, so these random morons would try to take shots back at Kane. The team is just working with him now to try to curb that, and improve his image. It's a very small but very vocal minority leading these rumours/attacks against Kane. I am hopeful that he understands that, we will see. Kane is probably still in the top 3 for jerseys sales (with Buff and Ladd).

Even if they did decide to trade Kane, as ScoreZeGoals says, the Kings and Jets are horrible trading partners. Both teams are overloaded on the blueline and lacking in top end forwards (of course, LA has alot more in both categories but still). Don't see that LA has any assets they would part with that would give WPG pause to think about a Kane trade. It's not like Kane is UFA, he is locked in RFA for 4 more years.


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