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-   -   OT: vazquez better than schilling? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=109811)

Potter 10-21-2004 02:40 PM

OT: vazquez better than schilling?
 
who was the genius that tried to make that claim last winter?

Fletch 10-21-2004 02:50 PM

I don't totally remember...
 
but was it more along the lines that it was a better pick-up because it was for the longer-term, and not just a one-year-fix? Amazing how ALL of Cashman's offseason moves failed in the end (A-Rod, Sheff, first base (take your pick), Gordon, Brown, Vazquez, Quantrill, among others). Man is his hair falling out quickly.

Brodeur 10-21-2004 03:05 PM

Theo Epstein admitted that he was trying to acquire Vazquez from Montreal but was unable to come up with a package they liked, so he went with Schilling instead. I think Epstein envisioned Vazquez being able to anchor the staff once/if Pedro left, whereas Schilling might have started his decline.

I think most acknowledged Vazquez to be a better acquisition long term, but in the short term it was arguable if he was going to be better than Schilling coming off an injury marred season.

Wasn't Sheffield's deal done directly by Steinbrenner? There had been rumblings about Cashman being GM of the new Washington team once that gets going.

Potter 10-21-2004 04:58 PM

Cashman isn't even really a GM. All of his decisions have to be brought to George and he has to okay every single one. And of course, George makes many of his teams moves (IE. Sheff, Wells, and of course Lofton). The organization is basically split into two sects, George and the Tampa crew and Cashman and his men. Cashman is basically an advisor that George can conviently blame because of his title. That poor boy should get out of there as fast as he can. Not only would it help his career but probably his health. That boy looked like he was gonna have a nervous breakdown shortly followed by a dive off the Brooklyn Bridge.

By the way, he is a good GM.

NYR2 10-21-2004 05:20 PM

Someone kill me.

Edge 10-21-2004 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potter
Cashman isn't even really a GM. All of his decisions have to be brought to George and he has to okay every single one. And of course, George makes many of his teams moves (IE. Sheff, Wells, and of course Lofton). The organization is basically split into two sects, George and the Tampa crew and Cashman and his men. Cashman is basically an advisor that George can conviently blame because of his title. That poor boy should get out of there as fast as he can. Not only would it help his career but probably his health. That boy looked like he was gonna have a nervous breakdown shortly followed by a dive off the Brooklyn Bridge.

By the way, he is a good GM.

Cashman always kinda looked like that. He has a certain Jeff Van Gundy always looking like he is ready to strap dynamite to his chest thing going.

NYR2 10-21-2004 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge
Cashman always kinda looked like that. He has a certain Jeff Van Gundy always looking like he is ready to strap dynamite to his chest thing going.

He does. :joker:

Fletch 10-22-2004 02:48 AM

It's hard to say...
 
which deals were actually George's and which were Cashman's. I saw rumblings once again that George was upset that Cash didn't sign Ortiz a couple years back. So perhaps it ain't all George.

True Blue 10-22-2004 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potter
who was the genius that tried to make that claim last winter?

Isn't hindsight 20/20 great? Must be wonderfull to be able to look like a genius ONE YEAR latter. There were LOTS of people that thought the 'Yanks made the right move by getting VAsquez. 10 years younger than Shilling ahd had FOUR GREAT years. Vasquez may still turn out to be something, but you would think that, as Rangers fans, we could at the very least appreciate when your team goes after a young star in the making, instead of an established 36 year old.
For all the money that George spends, Cashman is as good a GM as there is in all of baseball. Not EVERY decision you make is the right one one year latter. Look at Epstien's last year in Boston. How much of a genius did he look for his "closer by comitte" approach? How smart does Billy Beane look for letting Tejada go? Not all the choices are the right ones one year latter.

Slewfoot 10-22-2004 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
which deals were actually George's and which were Cashman's. I saw rumblings once again that George was upset that Cash didn't sign Ortiz a couple years back. So perhaps it ain't all George.

Perhaps it is George putting the blame on Cashman ? I don't recall hearing George admitting that he was wrong with any of the moves he wanted(Contreras, etc.)

Fletch 10-22-2004 09:38 AM

I think the Yankees...
 
go for these young stars as often as the Rangers, as many acquisitions made in the offseason and during the season was for those over 30 (Gordon, Quantrill, Sheffield, Olerud, Clark, Brown, Lofton, Hernandez, and Loaiza, among others).

Bluenote13 10-22-2004 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
but was it more along the lines that it was a better pick-up because it was for the longer-term, and not just a one-year-fix? Amazing how ALL of Cashman's offseason moves failed in the end (A-Rod, Sheff, first base (take your pick), Gordon, Brown, Vazquez, Quantrill, among others). Man is his hair falling out quickly.

Its really not amazing when u think about it Fletch. Those guys were never gonna replace what a Chili, O'neil, Tino, or Brosius did for to bring home Championships. Great indivisual performers, but the only guy the Yanks have picked up in recent years who seems to be a 'glue' guy is Matsui.

Baseball is over, lets focus on pucks now....uh....ummm...AHL! Catch the fever! :dunno:

Bluenote13 10-22-2004 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
which deals were actually George's and which were Cashman's. I saw rumblings once again that George was upset that Cash didn't sign Ortiz a couple years back. So perhaps it ain't all George.

I had Ortiz on my fantasy team when he was with the Twins. When Boston traded for him i was pretty upset, i knew the guy had good stuff back then.

That trade and the Dave Roberts deal i have no idea why Cashman didn't get in on either of those....Big Stein didn't like them i guess.

barnaby63 10-22-2004 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenote13
I had Ortiz on my fantasy team when he was with the Twins. When Boston traded for him i was pretty upset, i knew the guy had good stuff back then.

That trade and the Dave Roberts deal i have no idea why Cashman didn't get in on either of those....Big Stein didn't like them i guess.

Face facts here people, when David Ortiz was a free agent the Yankees had Jason Giambi and Nick Johnson at first. NO ROOM for Ortiz.

As for Dave Roberts, remember Kenny Lofton? Thought you would.

True Blue 10-22-2004 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnaby63
Face facts here people, when David Ortiz was a free agent the Yankees had Jason Giambi and Nick Johnson at first. NO ROOM for Ortiz.

Agreed. That's one of the things that got me about Steinbrenner. Where was Ortiz going to play? Yeah, looking at it NOW you can say that they should have traded Johnson back then and signed Ortiz. But hindsight is 20/20 and at the time Johnson was one of the top prospects in all of baseball.

Son of Steinbrenner 10-22-2004 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Agreed. That's one of the things that got me about Steinbrenner. Where was Ortiz going to play? Yeah, looking at it NOW you can say that they should have traded Johnson back then and signed Ortiz. But hindsight is 20/20 and at the time Johnson was one of the top prospects in all of baseball.

what has got to be driving steinbrenner crazy is he wanted to sign ortiz and was talked out of it by cashman.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/510/5031580.html

Kovy274Hart 10-22-2004 05:33 PM

If that's true, wow. But why did they have to sign Giambi? What an awful mistake that was.

Vic Rattlehead* 10-22-2004 06:01 PM

Vazquez will rebound from this weird year. I followed him and the expos, and trust me, he can do wonders for an organization.

Bluenote13 10-22-2004 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Agreed. That's one of the things that got me about Steinbrenner. Where was Ortiz going to play? Yeah, looking at it NOW you can say that they should have traded Johnson back then and signed Ortiz. But hindsight is 20/20 and at the time Johnson was one of the top prospects in all of baseball.

Never liked Nick Johnson, he was always on the IR in the minors and also when he got time in NY. He could hit, but his fielding wasn't exactly first rate, he's nothing special. Giambi was the deal that should've never been made, but who would've thought, remember how good he was for the A's? Doubt we'll see THAT Giambi again.

As for Lofton, Barnaby63, i never liked him and would've easilly dealt him for Roberts, or anywhere else.

The Yanks will get Beltran no matter what the price, then go and retool the pitching. REVENGE is the keyword for 2005 ;)

True Blue 10-22-2004 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
what has got to be driving steinbrenner crazy is he wanted to sign ortiz and was talked out of it by cashman.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/510/5031580.html

Again, hind sight is 20/20. IF he was to sign Ortiz, then that would lock in Ortiz & Giambi at 1b & DH. At the time Johnson was thought to be one of the top hitting prospects in all of baseball.

Son of Steinbrenner 10-22-2004 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Again, hind sight is 20/20. IF he was to sign Ortiz, then that would lock in Ortiz & Giambi at 1b & DH. At the time Johnson was thought to be one of the top hitting prospects in all of baseball.

you are correct hindsight is 20/20 and at the time i would have said "why is this fat slob in the way of nick johnson" i was simply pointing out that the boss wanted this player and he ended up being right.

Sicilian 10-22-2004 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
you are correct hindsight is 20/20 and at the time i would have said "why is this fat slob in the way of nick johnson" i was simply pointing out that the boss wanted this player and he ended up being right.

did steinbrenner want him back then though? i remember hearing that he chastised his baseball people for not signing ortiz, but wasn't he chastising them for not seeing the potential in him? something tells me if george thought highly enough of ortiz that he would have forced a move through, but the fact is, he was as surprised by ortiz' explosion as anyone, and in hindsight is angry that his people weren't perceptive enough to see it coming.

True Blue 10-22-2004 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sicilian
something tells me if george thought highly enough of ortiz that he would have forced a move through, but the fact is, he was as surprised by ortiz' explosion as anyone, and in hindsight is angry that his people weren't perceptive enough to see it coming.

I agree. SOS, if George wanted Ortiz bad enough, he would have signed him. He ordered Contreras to be signed. He personally signed Shef, while Cashman and others were lobbying for Vlad. He perosnally signed Wells, even though he knew not one person wanted him in that clubhouse.
George wants A LOT of things. Actually, he wants everything and everyone. So it it is natural that he be right about someone (Ortiz) about as often as he is wrong (Contreras).
Million dollar question is does he go after Martinez this off-season? On one hand, I want to say yes. But on the other, he has got to know how EVERYONE in the 'Yanks clubhouse feels about him.

Nifty=HHOF 10-22-2004 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brodeur
Theo Epstein admitted that he was trying to acquire Vazquez from Montreal but was unable to come up with a package they liked, so he went with Schilling instead. I think Epstein envisioned Vazquez being able to anchor the staff once/if Pedro left, whereas Schilling might have started his decline.

It was actually the prior year that the sox made the big push for Vasquez. Montreal wanted Shea Hillanbrand and Cassy Fossum. At the time, the Sox were unwilling to part with Fossum. The sox offer was Hillenbrand and a minor league pitcher (who name I forget). Montreal absolutely wanted Fossum and the Sox refused to part with him, WOW we're both GM's wrong about him!!! Take a look at his stats from last year (4-15, 6.65 ERA and he averaged less than 5 1/3rd IP per start).

The Sox ended up trading both guys to Arizona in two different trades. Shea went to Arizona for BY Kim, now that's a trade :shakehead. Fossum was part of the trade which brought in Schilling.

As for the Yankee loss, as a Red Sox fan living in NY I've always respected the core players, but.....this historic collapse of epic proportions couldn't have happened to a nicer group of fans :handclap:

Son of Steinbrenner 10-22-2004 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
I agree. SOS, if George wanted Ortiz bad enough, he would have signed him. He ordered Contreras to be signed. He personally signed Shef, while Cashman and others were lobbying for Vlad. He perosnally signed Wells, even though he knew not one person wanted him in that clubhouse.
George wants A LOT of things. Actually, he wants everything and everyone. So it it is natural that he be right about someone (Ortiz) about as often as he is wrong (Contreras).
Million dollar question is does he go after Martinez this off-season? On one hand, I want to say yes. But on the other, he has got to know how EVERYONE in the 'Yanks clubhouse feels about him.

yeah but the steinbrenner answer to why the yankees didn't sign ortiz would be "because my baseball people told me not too."

if the yankees can get clemens they can get pedro but i don't want him.


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