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-   -   Ukraine: Ukraine National team (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1098859)

ozo 02-05-2012 08:01 AM

Ukraine National team
 
Two Ukrainian players will be re-naturalized for the coming Eurohockey Challange Cup - Former Ukrainian U-International Viktor Andrushenko and the big VHL forward Alexander Toryanik. As discussed in Sergei Gaiduchenko's thread these tournaments doesn't mean much in terms of sealing permanent eligibility, though it looks unlikely that these two guys have any other alternatives. That said they still are decent players and could help their NT in spring especially if we keep in mind how many NT veterans have retired in last few seasons.

There were hopes of a third player "returning home" but paperwork of Gomel's Yegor Yegorovwasn't finalized in time so he won't be able to play for Ukraine just yet. Still baby steps but looks like there's some more pride restored to Ukrainian hockey, as re-obtaining Ukrainian passports could damage their chances of getting contracts in Russia and Belarus.

finchster 02-05-2012 10:35 AM

Considering Ukraine had two players who were under 25 in the world championships last year, getting three players of that age or under committing is a big positive. Along with having their own professional league this year although I am not sure of the level of play (assuming very low) and HC Donbass, hockey in Ukraine seems to have gotten on the right path.

smitty10 02-05-2012 11:07 AM

Good for Ukraine. Hopefully they can secure guys like Gaiduchenko, Zherdev, Ponikarovsky and Fedotenko for future tournaments. I'm not sure about Zherdev's eligibility, but I know the other guys can all play for Ukraine if they wish.

ozo 02-05-2012 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finchster (Post 43629565)
I am not sure of the level of play (assuming very low) and HC Donbass, hockey in Ukraine seems to have gotten on the right path.

Judging purely by the rosters, the level of play have already increased considerably. Though it's nothing to be too excited yet, but the low point of hockey programme seems to be in the past now.

cska78 02-07-2012 04:54 PM

Ukainian teams have beaten Belorussian in the friendlies, that says the level is not all that low, at least for Donbass-2, Berkut and Sokol

next big step would be creating a pan CIS league (Ukraine, Belorus', Latvija, mb Litva and some Russian teams that can't afford the VHL) or some top teams from fore-mentioned countries joining the VHL.

ozo 02-07-2012 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cska78 (Post 43744577)
next big step would be creating a pan CIS league (Ukraine, Belorus', Latvija, mb Litva and some Russian teams that can't afford the VHL) or some top teams from fore-mentioned countries joining the VHL.

Anyone remembers EEHL? It died for a reason

Ukraine is such a big and rich country, with bigger hockey traditions than similarly populated Germany, with time and proper development plan, Ukraine could easily build a league like DEL. Though "proper plans" and Eastern Europe rarely mix.

smitty10 02-07-2012 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozo (Post 43745873)
Anyone remembers EEHL? It died for a reason

Ukraine is such a big and rich country, with bigger hockey traditions than similarly populated Germany, with time and proper development plan, Ukraine could easily build a league like DEL. Though "proper plans" and Eastern Europe rarely mix.

With Ukraine's declining population they only have about half the population of Germany and less than 1/10th the size of the economy (Germany is an economic powerhouse, it's not really fair to compare many countries to them).

Maybe a league that stretched through Ukraine and Poland could work. With Poland's economic growth in recent years they may start to produce more good hockey players.

We'll see I guess.

ozo 02-09-2012 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 43777577)
With Ukraine's declining population they only have about half the population of Germany and less than 1/10th the size of the economy (Germany is an economic powerhouse, it's not really fair to compare many countries to them).

Maybe a league that stretched through Ukraine and Poland could work. With Poland's economic growth in recent years they may start to produce more good hockey players.

We'll see I guess.

An united league with Poland is even bigger pipe dream. I'd say hockey is much higher up the foodchain in Ukraine than in Germany, that's why I think Ukraine can create their own DEL, unless there will be several Ukrainian teams in KHL.

And to stay on topic Ukraine convincingly beat Romania by seven goals. Both new boys got on scoresheet - Andryushenko with 1+1, Toryanik with 0+1.

Sokil 02-13-2012 12:58 PM

I don't think a pan-CIS league makes any sense. That's what the KHL is for. For the minor leagues, I think national leagues make more sense. Keep travel costs down, try to drum up local interests, and allow a venue for smaller cities to get their own teams.

Once you make things international you up the ante a bit too far for these countries still struggling to get teams.

smitty10 02-13-2012 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 44066943)
I don't think a pan-CIS league makes any sense. That's what the KHL is for. For the minor leagues, I think national leagues make more sense. Keep travel costs down, try to drum up local interests, and allow a venue for smaller cities to get their own teams.

Once you make things international you up the ante a bit too far for these countries still struggling to get teams.

Very true.

Is hockey rebounding at all in Ukraine? I know they used to have a decent program and would produce NHLers from time to time, but they have obviously been on the downswing for quite some time.

ozo 02-14-2012 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 44093501)
Is hockey rebounding at all in Ukraine? I know they used to have a decent program and would produce NHLers from time to time, but they have obviously been on the downswing for quite some time.

In one word - yes.

I'd say that Ukraine is still capable of producing NHLers, though they won't be developed at home all the way, like Zherdev, Babchuk or Sobchenko.

Sokil 02-14-2012 11:50 PM

Yeah there will always be that small % of guys who are good enough to get scouted and into the Russian system when they're 17 or so. There will always be a few naturally gifted athletes to overcome the lack of a hockey program.

I think the national league and an eventual pro KHL team or two will make a world of change for Ukraine. Heck, even 1 KHL team and Ukraine's national team should rebound in a big way.

As for up and coming guys, watch for Maxim Kvitchenko in the MHL (Khimik). He's thankfully staying on the Uke national team.

ozo 02-15-2012 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 44168861)
As for up and coming guys, watch for Maxim Kvitchenko in the MHL (Khimik). He's thankfully staying on the Uke national team.

Unfortunately Kvitchenko is stuck on team with no senior team, he should be playing with men for a while now.

Ukrainians should celebrate that Kazan's Kutsevich didn't do a Tkachyov. Or maybe UKR hockey federation finally realized that they can and should cap anyone nice and early :)

Sokil 02-15-2012 11:10 AM

damn, I was wondering why he was still stuck in the MHL, forgot Khimik went bottom up

how long is he gonna be locked up there? he should go to Donetsk or something, get some pro time in the RHL

ozo 02-15-2012 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 44182249)
damn, I was wondering why he was still stuck in the MHL, forgot Khimik went bottom up

how long is he gonna be locked up there? he should go to Donetsk or something, get some pro time in the RHL

Well, I don't think think that he has a lot of options currently. He might be a good enough player to get some playing time in KHL, unfortunately the biggest knock on him is the fact he is Ukrainian, thus foreigner. Which team would want to sign him as a foreigner, and inexperienced one? Most KHL teams have their own academy graduates to fill the holes anyway.

I agree Donetsk, seems like the most realistic location, even if he doesn't want to play in VHL, where else then? Because NA train probably has already gone (unless NCAA interests him).

Sokil 02-15-2012 06:39 PM

He can just pick up a Russian passport on the street corner like every other player does to skirt the import rule


I don't see why he would have a problem playing in the VHL....at least it's pro; gotta start somewhere

ozo 02-16-2012 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 44205835)
He can just pick up a Russian passport on the street corner like every other player does to skirt the import rule


I don't see why he would have a problem playing in the VHL....at least it's pro; gotta start somewhere

Firstly, I don't think picking up a second passport would do the trick, he'd probably have stop playing for Ukraine internationally as well.

And if he's OK with playing in VHL, I can't imagine a reason good enough to sit at Voskresensk another year like he's doing currently.

finchster 02-16-2012 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozo (Post 44243131)
Firstly, I don't think picking up a second passport would do the trick, he'd probably have stop playing for Ukraine internationally as well.

And if he's OK with playing in VHL, I can't imagine a reason good enough to sit at Voskresensk another year like he's doing currently.

I don't think they can be dual citizens? I am not sure about the laws of dual citizenship in Russia and Ukraine, but I don't think dual citizenship is allowed?

At any rate, one more reason Ukraine needs a KHL team and probably another VHL team or two (eventually)

Sokil 02-16-2012 11:03 PM

Ponikarovsky and Antropov picked up Russian passports to play with Dynamo back in the day

Vyukhin and Razin played for team Ukraine but have/had Russian passports as well (and are listed on the KHL site as Russian)

dual citizenship in Ukraine isn't....technically legal. Maybe you could get a "fine"? Maybe they don't recognize the new citizenship? It gets overlooked.

Grabovski 02-17-2012 01:28 AM

I've seen Yegorov play lots of times and he is definitely maturing and playing a better physical game and two-way game imo.

ozo 02-18-2012 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 44301405)
Ponikarovsky and Antropov picked up Russian passports to play with Dynamo back in the day

Vyukhin and Razin played for team Ukraine but have/had Russian passports as well (and are listed on the KHL site as Russian)

dual citizenship in Ukraine isn't....technically legal. Maybe you could get a "fine"? Maybe they don't recognize the new citizenship? It gets overlooked.

When was the last time Razin and Vyukhin (I'm aware that he passed away) played for Ukraine? The whole "dual citizenship issue controversy" in Russia surfaced around the time Razin last participated in WC. So as I said passport alone isn't enough even in cases when player like Vyukhin is actually born in Russia too.

I'm sure Razin would gladly play for Ukraine every year, but it would do a severe damage to his finances. Currently he can only hope that Ukrainians will be made excempt of foreigner limit like Belarussians (and Kazakhs too? ).

smitty10 02-18-2012 03:26 PM

If Ukraine makes it back to the WC, is there any possibility that Ponikarovsky and Fedotenko would come back and play internationally? Would likely be a huge boost to their program and efforts to bring Ukrainians back to the National team.

I know Zubrus is going to play for Lithuania when ever he gets the chance and I'd think Antropov would still play for Kazakhstan if he's healthy in the off season.

Anyone know their intentions?

Sokil 02-20-2012 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 44382115)
If Ukraine makes it back to the WC, is there any possibility that Ponikarovsky and Fedotenko would come back and play internationally? Would likely be a huge boost to their program and efforts to bring Ukrainians back to the National team.

I know Zubrus is going to play for Lithuania when ever he gets the chance and I'd think Antropov would still play for Kazakhstan if he's healthy in the off season.

Anyone know their intentions?

I think both would if they were in the top division. If both play in the KHL next year, it'll be interesting to see if they try Ukraine again.

That said, Fedotenko has said in interviews that he has no intention on playing for Ukraine (from what I remember) and that he's American now

Sokil 02-20-2012 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozo (Post 44359701)
When was the last time Razin and Vyukhin (I'm aware that he passed away) played for Ukraine? The whole "dual citizenship issue controversy" in Russia surfaced around the time Razin last participated in WC. So as I said passport alone isn't enough even in cases when player like Vyukhin is actually born in Russia too.

I'm sure Razin would gladly play for Ukraine every year, but it would do a severe damage to his finances. Currently he can only hope that Ukrainians will be made excempt of foreigner limit like Belarussians (and Kazakhs too? ).

I'm unaware of a controversy, what happened?

that said, Ponikarovsky played with a Russian passport in the WC, and the KHL site lists Andrei Mikhnov as a Russian so I think it's safe to assume he got one too at some point

Gaiduchenko has both and is still waffling

ozo 02-20-2012 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 44509787)
I'm unaware of a controversy, what happened?

Essentially in summer 2004, some RSL club owners, RHF officials were unhappy that more and more players obtained Russian citizenship and yet continued playing for their respective countries. So they issued policy that playing for Ukraine, Kazakhstan or Belarus voided your home-player status and club owners forbid their players for playing for their NT's and, in order to remain employed, players obliged. So dual citizenship wasn't enough. Most of the players, who felt that they were not good enough to earn job in RSL as foreigners, stopped reporting to WC's. Razin, Vyukhin, Alexei Troschinsky or Upper are good examples of players taking hiatus from international hockey.

Though after KHL allowed more foreigners in the league so that's not such a big problem anymore, atleast for Kazakhs and Belarussians, but Ukrainians still are in a rough shape. So players like Kvitchenko are still taking a huge risk when they decide to report for Ukraine and maybe that's why he's still in the MHL, who knows.


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