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-   -   Are you willing to accept a step back at this point? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1100925)

Sawdalite 02-07-2012 05:28 PM

Are you willing to accept a step back at this point?
 
This has been a roller-coaster ride with a very changed team that gave us the uncertainty of what the new look Flyers would be. Homer stated that he wasn't sure the Flyers would be better, but knew they would be a different team (paraphrased).

What was to be the long-term offensive future was gutted on the first day of the Free Agent period with both Richards and Carter being traded... from that point on many players were either traded or allowed to sign elsewhere, and new players were brought in, and then new players were brought up... The results were a vastly different makeup of the Forward ranks.

Boucher was allowed to walk and Leighton was waived down... and the long-term true number one goalie was traded for and signed at a great expense and for a very long time... relegating Bobrovsky to backup status and casting a doubt on his future with the team... The results was a vastly different makeup between the pipes.

The Defense was the only place on the roster that appeared to be basically the same with only minor moves at the last D-man and extra D-men/depth spots made... That is until the heart and soul of the Defense was removed, for this season at best, with what was ultimately diagnosed as a sever concussion... The result was a massive blow to the Defense and the Captaincy, and the one player that was thought of by many as being the key to winning the Stanley Cup.

The bottom line was a new core and a new future... basically a new-look younger, faster and arguably more talented team in the long run.... a roster full of rookies and young forwards set to be an NHL force in the future and possibly for quite a while.

But as the team gelled with the talented veterans with solid leadership and good character proving to be on the whole good moves... and the young replacement talent showing to be NHL ready and good fits... and the recently signed/drafted players proved to be able to play beyond their experience, the outlook seem to be much better than anyone could have expected. The eam looked to be to contend NOW.

Then, with chinks in the armour and key injuries popping up seemingly showing many fans that the team was not at a point to challenge the Rangers and Bruins in the Eastern Conference... not coincidentally tied into the outstanding and exceptional goalies on those teams and the up and mostly down stretches by the Flyers goalies, especially the long-term number one, Bryzgalov... have we now settled back into the feeling that this is a work-in-progress team (Tweaked rather than rebuilt) or are we dead set on 'The Cup or Bust'/'They are ready now with he right Trade deadline moves' mentality?

Please select what best states how you feel at this point.

bryzgalovsky* 02-07-2012 05:37 PM

if by taking a step back you mean dumping bryzgalov and bobrovsky and attempting to grow a baby goalie in a test tube


i'm open to anything at this point

mdm815 02-07-2012 05:41 PM

Personally I wouldn't like to see any moves made that mortgage the future for contention now. This team was 'retooled' for the purpose of remaining competitive, but not really contending for a couple years (at least that was my take).

I feel like the only move worth making at this point is for a stud D-man. I would hate to see us move important pieces for a deadline move in a year where we are not that one move away from going over the top.

Flyerfan4life 02-07-2012 05:54 PM

nothing in those options suits me i think..

i'd like to see a trade as soon as it can happen regardless of waiting for the deadline or not.

get rid of baggage like Carle/Lilja. do whats nec. to get a real Dman one who stays home and protects like a mother tiger to its young.

very few names i'd consider untouchable, but i'll entertain anything at this point so long as it makes sence.

oh and if by some miracle Bryz becomes an option to move you give SERIOUS thought over it.

Scoopyten 02-07-2012 06:14 PM

With so many rookies stepping in and playing well despite growing pains, plus the possible end of Pronger's career, it's hard to say go full bore at the deadline and make a move that brings in a top defenseman or what ever.

Right now, I want prudence. I don't want a huge stack of youth and picks moved for a veteran. If you can get a solid vet for a pick or middle of the road prospect, I'm OK with that. I'd rather a good solid guy, signed to a reasonable contract that can grow with the rest of the young core.

In the summer, when Pronger's status is more certain, go after the big name vet. We'll also know by then what the new CBA will entail in terms of buyouts(amnesty or otherwise) and LTIR changes.

sobrien 02-07-2012 07:13 PM

I think the moves this offseason were meant to take a small step back. I think they still expected to be a playoff team though, which they are. If I'm Holmgren, I'm delightfully surprised with how well the trades worked out this offseason.

GKJ 02-07-2012 10:14 PM

They already took a step back.


Some people refuse(d) to accept that.

Beef Invictus 02-07-2012 10:15 PM

Yes, I think we're currently in the "Stepping forward" phase.

DrinkFightFlyers 02-07-2012 10:17 PM

A couple minor deals could go a long way this season, IMO. However I would not trade any of the key pieces for a rental. I would trade a key piece for a long-term solution on defense though.

flyershockey 02-07-2012 10:26 PM

They've already taken a step back. The rookies are starting to hit a wall and they shouldn't be expected to carry a team anyway. And if the defense doesn't stop hitting with their purse and limiting their turnovers, we'll get smoked in the playoffs. The loss of Pronger and Richard's and Carter's defensive play is starting to expose our defense for what it really is... a weak group.

Sawdalite 02-07-2012 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyershockey (Post 43780247)
They've already taken a step back. The rookies are starting to hit a wall and they shouldn't be expected to carry a team anyway. And if the defense doesn't stop hitting with their purse and limiting their turnovers, we'll get smoked in the playoffs. The loss of Pronger and Richard's and Carter's defensive play is starting to expose our defense for what it really is... a weak group.

This is an example of one of the things I meant by being willing to accept taking a step back... before moving ahead and being a true contender for a while. Coots and Read, and eventually Schenn will IMO be better in the long run. I already see Read and Coots as having shown what they are capable of, and time and experience will only help them. The return on Richards and Carter have the ability to better the play of those who left. Schenn, Simmonds, Couturier and Voracek already have established themselves in the new core and most of them have stepped up on the PK.

Pronger on the other hand was an unplanned step back, and one that I believe will have to be addressed through trade or free agency (IMO we have seen the end of the Pronger we have known)... But, are we willing to accept taking a step backwards to better the Defense? Homer may have to tinker with the young talent up front to get and fit in under the Cap the new top pair D-man... maybe another step back before the Flyers are back on track and where they were before. I could see a rental crease clearing big banger before the permanent one in the off-season.

GKJ 02-07-2012 10:55 PM

The NHL is designed for this. It's not designed for the Flyers philosophy of ignoring development, handing out huge contracts because you can, spending money/assets to replace injured players, and imposing your will as a franchise. It's rough going, and sometimes they're going to fall short of already unreasonable expectations, and even *gasp* miss the playoffs once in a while.

ilovetheflyers8 02-07-2012 10:58 PM

I want Holmgren to go for a defenseman before the deadline even if the team is unlikely to win it all. However, I don't want him to trade a roster player or a first, and with only a second or below pick and a decent prospect I'm not sure the team can afford any decent rental defensemen anyways with there being so few of them available.

edit- It turns out the team might not have a second this year because the team sent the pick to the Lightning for Meszaros, and Florida gets to choose whether to give the Flyers their 2nd from the Versteeg trade this draft or in 2013. I'm guessing since this draft is supposed to be deep they might wait till next year to give their 2nd up.

flyersfan187 02-08-2012 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GKJ (Post 43779343)
They already took a step back.


Some people refuse(d) to accept that.

Agree'd completely. Though there is always a chance for any team to come on strong in the playoffs and get the Cup.

StandingCow 02-08-2012 12:15 AM

I expected them to barely make the playoffs this year (before the season started)... but the rookies were doing better than I expected and we got to the top of the league.

Now, I think we are settling back down, but mostly because Pronger has been out, and Bryz has played sub-par for most of the season.

So, I am happy where we are right now, yes it is frustrating as hell, but this is a year after a rebuild of the team.

CS 02-08-2012 01:17 AM

We took one step backwards:

From: Eastern Conference Championship Competitor

To: Eastern Conference First/Second Round Team

So that we can move two steps (one net step) forward:

From: Eastern Conference First/Second Round Team

To: Stanley Cup Championship Competitor


We'll see if it pays off.

Bryzgalov needs to go.

We need to spend his money on defense.

We need to be patient with vanRiemsdyk, Voracek, Couturier, Schenn, Simmonds, Read, and Giroux. Basically don't start trading people.

ICAPNASTYI 02-08-2012 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryzgalovsky (Post 43746419)
if by taking a step back you mean dumping bryzgalov and bobrovsky and attempting to grow a baby goalie in a test tube


i'm open to anything at this point

How much would we have to pay for the test tube though?

BillDineen 02-08-2012 02:17 AM

By "step back" I view that as trading Carle. I just want him gone.

RJ8812 02-08-2012 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillDineen (Post 43786695)
By "step back" I view that as trading Carle. I just want him gone.

getting rid of Carle is by no means a step back, it's a giant leap forward

duffy9748 02-08-2012 08:30 AM

I wouldn't oppose of the idea. Although, if we are going to trade Carle, I think we should completely finish the rebuild. I think this team had a chance at contending with Pronger but we don't without him. This may not be too popular, but trading Timonen could fetch a huge return. If he keeps to his word and retires at the end of his contract, I don't think he wins a cup here. We would get a huge return for him and than we would have more than enough of assets to trade for a young, up and coming #1-#2 dman and we have plenty of cap space to go after Suter. Hypothetically:

Carle for 1st round pick.
Timonen for 1st+high level prospect.

And if we are doing that, we might as well start shopping the veteran forwards as well.

I think Jagr would be able to fetch a 1st/good prospect from a team needing to add that final piece. Maybe Vancouver?

Briere is tough to gauge value on but I wouldn't mind keeping him around because he is a good influence on the young guys and will still be delivering in the playoffs over the next 3 years.

Say we do those trades though.

Hartnell-Giroux-JVR
Simmonds-Briere-Schenn
Read-Couturier-Voracek
Rinaldo-Talbot-Sesitio/Harry Z

X-Coburn
X-Meszaros
X-Bourdon/Gus

If you just think of the picks we would recieve, we'd have 4 firsts going into next year plus some other good prospects with trade value.

Not going to bother making proposals but we have enough assets there to get the players we need to fill out the roster(Suter/Weber, Luke Schenn, top 6 winger). Might as well finish the rebuild.

Again, I doubt I do these deals if Pronger is healthy/returning next year which is unlikely.

Snotbubbles 02-08-2012 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilovetheflyers8 (Post 43782079)
I want Holmgren to go for a defenseman before the deadline even if the team is unlikely to win it all. However, I don't want him to trade a roster player or a first, and with only a second or below pick and a decent prospect I'm not sure the team can afford any decent rental defensemen anyways with there being so few of them available.

edit- It turns out the team might not have a second this year because the team sent the pick to the Lightning for Meszaros, and Florida gets to choose whether to give the Flyers their 2nd from the Versteeg trade this draft or in 2013. I'm guessing since this draft is supposed to be deep they might wait till next year to give their 2nd up.

They have the LA Kings 2nd from the Richards trade.

achdumeingute 02-08-2012 12:31 PM

Prongers loss seriously hurts our chances. IMO shop and hopefully trade Carle...target a UFA defenseman we might like in the offseason and get him now(cost prohibitive of course). Basically give him a 3 month tryout. Hit the playoffs, get some experience for the young guys. However we finish is gravy.

PAZUZU 02-08-2012 01:25 PM

i can't vote on the poll, but if i could i'd probably go with:

I'm looking for Homer to step up at the Trade Deadline & this team will contend this Postseason

which is more or less what i think will happen, not exactly what i want to happen. there's no question we need help on d, and i'm fairly certain homer will be making a deal to bring in somebody at the deadline like he usually does each year, but i don't see them trading timonen or carle for picks/prospects.

zarley zelepukin 02-08-2012 01:47 PM

I don't think the first and third options on the trade have to be mutually exclusive. Clearly the team is in a position to contend for a Cup if and when the young players grow into more complete, consistent players, provided the team makes a move or two to improve the defense now and in the future.

I didn't like the trades at the time, and do I agree with them now? Not really. But at this point I'll accept the team taking a step or so back so in the future then can return to where I thought they were before free agency and then hopefully stay there for a longer period of time.

McNasty 02-08-2012 01:49 PM

I would rather them sit on their hands because at this point there is no reason to expect a single acquisition to put us ahead of the Rangers or Bruins.


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