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-   -   Speculation: Trading inside vs outside the Division. (Thornton and Kessel Revisited). (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1103937)

palindrom 02-11-2012 02:37 AM

Trading inside vs outside the Division. (Thornton and Kessel Revisited).
 
We often hear that Teams avoid to trade inside the division. I just dont think its the right strategy.

So here is three questions:

Going back to the past, should Boston accept a lower offer for Kessel to send him outside the division, so Boston doesnt have to face Kessel 6 times per year. Do you mind facing Kessel six times per year?

Going back into the past, would you mind to get a better offer for Thorthon but sending him to Ottawa or Montreal instead of San Jose?

Does it worth it to refuse the best offer for a player and accept a (slightly) lesser offer to avoid a trade inside the division?

Sturm und Drang 02-11-2012 02:48 AM

I'd say you always take the deal that improves your team the most. You may play six games against a divisional rival, but you play 76 games against the rest of the league. Maximizing the strength of your own team is a much more effective strategy than worrying about the marginal benefit to a single opponent.

Pay Carl 02-11-2012 03:08 AM

In theory all trades are equal or close to it, so to me I dont really think to much of what division or conference they end up in.

As far as playing Kessel, we havent lost to the Leafs once this year so I'm ok with it haha. Plus, it means that the Leafs will be stronger now, sure, but weaker in the future as they will not have Seguin Hamilton and Knight.

To me I would be more scared of a team with TS and DH in the future when they are superstars than facing a team with just Kessel now.

So I guess to answer your question I will take the better deal and keep them in the division as opposed to a worse deal that moves them away

Latrappe 02-11-2012 05:16 AM

Couple of points:

1- You take the highest return regardless of the conference. If you have two offers very close then it might be better to move the player outside your own conference.

2- It's very rare that you will see an " in division-conference " trade between two competitive teams. Most of the time, the teams who are involved are in a different stage of their " development " read a contender trading with a team who rebuild.

3- Thornton? I'm not how sure how a trade to Ottawa or a Canadian team would have help him or hurt the Bruins. Canadian fans are very rabid one and Thornton would have took a lot of heat for not performing. No way the Bruins would have moved an " impact " player to Montreal. Too much history/rivalry between both club. You have to remember that, a few years ago, the Bruins had to deal McLaren to SJ in order to acquire Jeff Hackett so... It tell you how a high profile trade,between the two clubs, is very unlikely

ODAAT 02-11-2012 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrom (Post 43942095)
We often hear that Teams avoid to trade inside the division. I just dont think its the right strategy.

So here is three questions:

Going back to the past, should Boston accept a lower offer for Kessel to send him outside the division, so Boston doesnt have to face Kessel 6 times per year. Do you mind facing Kessel six times per year?

Going back into the past, would you mind to get a better offer for Thorthon but sending him to Ottawa or Montreal instead of San Jose?

Does it worth it to refuse the best offer for a player and accept a (slightly) lesser offer to avoid a trade inside the division?

I could care less about facing Kessel 6 times a year. Ya think that the Leafs fans/media will be too anxious to face the Bruins 6 times a year with Segs/Hamilton/Knight in the lineup potentially in a few short years??

With trades, there is always a risk, even with players that are known commoditites, it guarantees nothing in the way of success. Some players, although from a fan stand point seem to be natural fits, just don`t fit in, we`ve seen blockbusters for rentals (less so these days) blow up in teams faces, and we`ve seen smaller moves (let`s use Kelly/Pevs) for example as being more successful than imagined.

I don`t care about trading inside a conference/division, it all depends on the context, by not trading within the conference/division, a GM essentially is closing himself off to being able to aquire conceivably alot of solid players from 14 teams, not good business practice IMO.

Latrappe 02-11-2012 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODAAT (Post 43943089)
I could care less about facing Kessel 6 times a year. Ya think that the Leafs fans/media will be too anxious to face the Bruins 6 times a year with Segs/Hamilton/Knight in the lineup potentially in a few short years??

With trades, there is always a risk, even with players that are known commoditites, it guarantees nothing in the way of success. Some players, although from a fan stand point seem to be natural fits, just don`t fit in, we`ve seen blockbusters for rentals (less so these days) blow up in teams faces, and we`ve seen smaller moves (let`s use Kelly/Pevs) for example as being more successful than imagined.

I don`t care about trading inside a conference/division, it all depends on the context, by not trading within the conference/division, a GM essentially is closing himself off to being able to aquire conceivably alot of solid players from 14 teams, not good business practice IMO.

Yep and i think Burke was overrating the Leafs when he traded for Kessel. His team was not close to contend so the timing, for making that deal, wasn't " right ". I'm a big fan of making a trade, even if it cost a premium, when the player you acquire can make the difference and put you over the top. Wasn't the case with the Leafs, IMHO. This trade doesn't look that " bad " on Burke if you look at the stats sheet but the development of Seguin and maybe Hamilton will give the Bruins an edge that i'm sure, Burke didn't want to give them. That said, there's always a risk when prospects/draft picks are involved so i think the " luck " factor was also in play, here. It's a win/win trade but, in the end, the Bruins might end up with the better return. As the old adage says: you have to wait a certain amount of time before judging a trade...

ODAAT 02-11-2012 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latrappe (Post 43943127)
Yep and i think Burke was overrating the Leafs when he traded for Kessel. His team was not close to contend so the timing of the deal wasn't " right ". I'm a big fan of making a trade, even if it cost a premium, when the player you acquire can make the difference and put you over the top. Wasn't the case with the Leafs, IMHO. This trade doesn't look that " bad " on Burke if you look at the stats sheet but the development of Seguin and maybe Hamilton will give the Bruins an edge that i'm sure, Burke didn't want to give them. That said, there's always a risk when prospects/draft picks are involved so i think the " luck " factor was also in play, here.

Absolutely agree Trapper, if I recall, he (Burke) signed Komisarek and I think Finger, then proclaimed his team to be a playoff bound team?? I think most of us would agree, and I think Chia anticipated the Leafs to be on the outside looking in come playoff time and that pick would be top 10, EVERYTHING that could go wrong did go wrong for the Leafs that year and the gift of Segs/then Knight fell right into the teams hands, then Hamilton slipping to 9th spot and I needed to pinch myself......ouch

On paper, Kessel has done exactly what Burke wanted and needed him to do, they could care less if Phil plays 3 zone hockey (which ultimately will bite them in the arse if they ever do make the playoffs), all they wanted was a winger who could pop 30 goals or more and they got it.

We`ll see I guess, but I tell ya one thing, as year 2 of the Seguin has shown us, the Bruins have a kid who from all accounts, works hard, is coacheable and pushes himself to be the best, sure, he sleeps in from time to time;) but that seems to be an issue of the past and hardly the first time a young kid has done this.

I have a buddy who`s a massive Hawks fan, says Kane was a regular absentee in year one only the Hawks turned the other cheek constantly.

Knight could be the huge salt in the wounds of this trade believe it or not, from all accounts when Burke was shipping Kaberle, it was reported that it was Knight he most coveted over Colborne.

Either way, as you stated, ya never know with prospects, not inconceivable we could be watching a game from the ACC/TD where Hamilton feeds an outlet pass to Segs who puts in on the tape of Knight who skates right through the "check" of Kessel in the neutral zone and roofs it:yo: Burke`s face will be even more red then

Have a good one Trapper

yohan1212 02-11-2012 06:12 AM

Not worried at all about kessel. By the time the leafs are a playoff team he will be out of town, gone to the highest bidder.

ODAAT 02-11-2012 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yohan1212 (Post 43943269)
Not worried at all about kessel. By the time the leafs are a playoff team he will be out of town, gone to the highest bidder.

HBO 24/7 following the Leafs next year, how long do ya figure it`ll take the camera crew to even find Kessel let alone hear him speak??? I am telling ya, next season`s 24/7 special could be potentially one of the most boring yet, it`ll be nothing but wall to wall Wilson (if he`s still coach) and Burke who neither have ever met a mic or camera they don`t love.

Burke`s act (tie all loosened) is as tiresome as Don Cherry`s, and Wilson is one of the most condescending men in the game, I will have exactly zero interest in 24/7, and with all due respect to the Wings, what are the camera`s gonna do, follow that veteran squad around and watch Lidstrom take his grandkids to pre-school???:sarcasm:

ODAAT 02-11-2012 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yohan1212 (Post 43943269)
Not worried at all about kessel. By the time the leafs are a playoff team he will be out of town, gone to the highest bidder.

HBO 24/7 following the Leafs next year, how long do ya figure it`ll take the camera crew to even find Kessel let alone hear him speak??? I am telling ya, next season`s 24/7 special could be potentially one of the most boring yet, it`ll be nothing but wall to wall Wilson (if he`s still coach) and Burke who neither have ever met a mic or camera they don`t love.

Burke`s act (tie all loosened) is as tiresome as Don Cherry`s, and Wilson is one of the most condescending men in the game, I will have exactly zero interest in 24/7, and with all due respect to the Wings, what are the camera`s gonna do, follow that veteran squad around and watch Lidstrom take his grandkids to pre-school???:sarcasm:

ODAAT 02-11-2012 06:20 AM

sorry for the double post

palindrom 02-11-2012 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latrappe (Post 43943029)
Couple of points:

3- You have to remember that, a few years ago, the Bruins had to deal McLaren to SJ in order to acquire Jeff Hackett so... It tell you how a high profile trade,between the two clubs, is very unlikely

At the same time it show how futile it is to try to avoid to send a player to a division rival.

What if Montreal accepted a lesser offer from SJ in order to avoid Hackett in Boston? Doesnt sound winner to me. I remember the Montreal media was ''not happy'' (to be polite) with this trade.

ReggieMoto 02-11-2012 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODAAT (Post 43943089)
I could care less about facing Kessel 6 times a year.

What about David Krejci?

BrainOfJ 02-11-2012 07:25 AM

I always wondered what the Nashville package for kessel was

Ratty 02-11-2012 08:19 AM

From what I read at the time, the Bruins did have a better offfer for Kessel from Nashville. However, Phil the Thrill refused to go there. In the end it worked out fabulously for the Bs.

TCL40 02-11-2012 08:41 AM

I don't think it matters. I think you take the best deal available that improves your team.

I actually think in some ways it is kind of fun to face Kessel 6 times a year and mostly watch him get shutdown by Chara.

trenton1 02-11-2012 09:22 AM

I think prior GM's often took lesser deals in order to get certain players far away. The fans were ripped off consistently by these gutless and unintelligent tactics.

Chiarelli has guts. Chiarelli has a ring as a GM.

WBC8 02-11-2012 10:15 AM

Fearful GM's are afraid to deal in the same division / conference . Winners get the best deal they can. Chiarelli is a winner. Rumor has it the Nashville deal was even better then Toronto deal (AT THE TIME) and contained more immediate help along with top prospects.

WBC8 02-11-2012 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heelsox (Post 43943829)
I always wondered what the Nashville package for kessel was

Googling now but I could have sworn I saw Hamhuis and Wilson/Ellis.

palindrom 02-11-2012 12:04 PM

Well, i guess the people who advocate for avoiding trading inside the division are invisible in this thread, maybe the way i presented my argument make it hard to says something against it.

But i often read comment like: ''Our GM will never trade X player to our rival'' ''i dont want to face him 6 times a years''

And it make no sense to me when we realize avoiding a division trade also mean accepting a lower offer.

I think most fans just want an overpayment if they are to trade to their rival. But i dont think an overpayment is needed, getting the best offer in the entire league for an X player is enough.

KnightofBoston 02-11-2012 02:15 PM

Kessel has like what, 6 points in 17 games against the bruins?

Do you think we are worried about facing him?

Gonzothe7thDman 02-11-2012 03:00 PM

Chiarelli wanted Ryan Ellis and Colin Wilson and Poille said no, Wilson was too valuable.

palindrom 02-11-2012 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KnightofBoston (Post 43962167)
Kessel has like what, 6 points in 17 games against the bruins?

Do you think we are worried about facing him?

What do you think about a comment like this....(I was asking Vancouver fans if they would rather accept a 20th choice overall for Schneider to a division rival or a 31th overall from a team of the other conference.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avs44 (Post 42934875)
Realistically, If they HAD to trade Schneider, they'd probably take the 31st pick. You don't want a player of Schneider's capability playing against you 6 times a year.


Cabin Mirror 02-12-2012 09:01 PM

A competent GM will trade with whichever team makes the best offer. Only exceptions would be if it was a bitter rival (Bruins/Canadiens, Red Sox/Yankees/etc) or if the offers were indistinguishable.

FutureConsiderations 02-12-2012 09:41 PM

It's tough to "revisit" the thought while divorcing ourselves of the actual results, which were greater than anyone anticipated or hoped for. Toronto was bad, but did anyone have them pegged for 29 out of 30 with Kessel? For that matter, are we revisiting this thought if the lottery throws a curveball and Boston ends up with Nino, Gudbranson, or Johansen? Good players, but not cornerstones like Seguin and Hall.


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