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-   -   Article: Not one Leafs all timer great cracks the Habs top 5, maybe even top 10 list. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1104007)

Mynameismark* 02-11-2012 07:39 AM

Article: Not one Leafs all timer great cracks the Habs top 5, maybe even top 10 list.
 
This was never really in question but here is the article nonetheless.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../19367311.html



All-time Habs vs. Leafs? No contest
By Mike Zeisberger, QMI Agency





To the throng of Maple Leaf supporters shoehorned into the Air Canada Centre on Saturday night, watching the ceremony honouring the leading scorer in franchise history will be a special moment indeed.

A well-deserved moment that Mats Sundin has definitely earned.

At the same time, you have to wonder what will be going through the minds of long-time Montreal Canadiens staff members, media and observers when they see Sundin’s banner being hoisted prior to the game.

GrizzLeaf 02-11-2012 08:41 AM

Sundin: GP 1346 / 564 G / 785 A / for 1349 Pts ( 1.002 PPG)


Maurice Richard: GP 978 / 544 G / 421 A / for 965 Pts ( 0.987 PPG)


Howie Morenz: GP 550 / 270 G / 197 A / for 467 Pts ( 0.849 PPG)


Doug Harvey: GP 1113 / 88 G / 452 A / for 540 Pts ( 0.485 PPG)


Jean Beliveau: GP 1125 / 507 G / 712A / for 1219 Pts ( 1.084 PPG)


Guy Lafleur: GP 1127 / 560 G / 793 A / for 1353 Pts ( 1.201 PPG)


Just thought I would post their respective stats since the OP failed to actually make any kind of comparison other than opinion.;)

Davebo 02-11-2012 08:47 AM

And what has Sundin won in this league?

Sweet. ****. All.

Habsawce 02-11-2012 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrizzLeaf (Post 43944977)
Sundin: GP 1346 / 564 G / 785 A / for 1349 Pts ( 1.002 PPG)


Maurice Richard: GP 978 / 544 G / 421 A / for 965 Pts ( 0.987 PPG)


Howie Morenz: GP 550 / 270 G / 197 A / for 467 Pts ( 0.849 PPG)


Doug Harvey: GP 1113 / 88 G / 452 A / for 540 Pts ( 0.485 PPG)


Jean Beliveau: GP 1125 / 507 G / 712A / for 1219 Pts ( 1.084 PPG)


Guy Lafleur: GP 1127 / 560 G / 793 A / for 1353 Pts ( 1.201 PPG)


Just thought I would post their respective stats since the OP failed to actually make any kind of comparison other than opinion.;)

Sundin was a nice player and all but comparing him to these HoF players is pretty laughable.

MathMan 02-11-2012 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrizzLeaf (Post 43944977)
Just thought I would post their respective stats since the OP failed to actually make any kind of comparison other than opinion.;)

Ajusting stats across eras can be tricky, but necessary to make a good comparison. Points came a lot more easily in the eighties than they do now, for example.

GrizzLeaf 02-11-2012 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habsawce (Post 43945229)
Sundin was a nice player and all but comparing him to these HoF players is pretty laughable.

If HoF is the criteria being used to compare, then Sundin isn't even eligible for nomination. A player must be retired for a minimum 3 years.:shakehead

The Kremelin Wall* 02-11-2012 09:30 AM

Richard would have scored a hundred and fifty goals in 92-93.

MXD 02-11-2012 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrizzLeaf (Post 43945619)
If HoF is the criteria being used to compare, then Sundin isn't even eligible for nomination. A player must be retired for a minimum 3 years.:shakehead

You know your argumentation is weak when you insert the name of an O-6 D-Men and do a points/PPG comparison....

Besides, when the best claim to fame of a player is that he was a Top-10 Center during a very long time (but never, ever Top-5), that's pretty much means he's not elite by any stretch. Sundin MIGHT get in the HHOF on the first ballot, but that will mean one thing : that would be a pretty average year.

Fozz 02-11-2012 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrizzLeaf (Post 43944977)
Sundin: GP 1346 / 564 G / 785 A / for 1349 Pts ( 1.002 PPG)


Maurice Richard: GP 978 / 544 G / 421 A / for 965 Pts ( 0.987 PPG)


Howie Morenz: GP 550 / 270 G / 197 A / for 467 Pts ( 0.849 PPG)


Doug Harvey: GP 1113 / 88 G / 452 A / for 540 Pts ( 0.485 PPG)


Jean Beliveau: GP 1125 / 507 G / 712A / for 1219 Pts ( 1.084 PPG)


Guy Lafleur: GP 1127 / 560 G / 793 A / for 1353 Pts ( 1.201 PPG)


Just thought I would post their respective stats since the OP failed to actually make any kind of comparison other than opinion.;)

Kind of ridiculous and laughable to use stats and only stats to compare these players.

Harry Wong 02-11-2012 10:32 AM

Frank Mahovlich, the Big M, played as the top left winger with both clubs, was the top scorer with both clubs and won 4 cups with Toronto and 2 with Montreal.

MXD 02-11-2012 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Wong (Post 43947315)
Frank Mahovlich, the Big M, played as the top left winger with both clubs, was the top scorer with both clubs and won 4 cups with Toronto and 2 with Montreal.

Well, yeah, but Mahovlich arguably had his best years (if you disconsider that 48-goal-season), and certainly his best playoffs, with Montreal, and besides, not convinced Mahovlich would make an Habs Top-10 (regardless of time spent with the team).

I mean....

Plante
Roy
Dryden
Durnan
Harvey
Robinson
(Chelios)
(Moore)
Beliveau
Morenz
(Lalonde)
Lafleur
Richard
Geoffrion

Parenthesis are for not-so-obvious cases (either didn't play that much in Montreal, extremely close to Mahovlich or was really ancient, respectively).

In no way, shape or form Mahovlich is amongst the Top-10 players to have skated for the Habs. Some people would add Henri Richard to this list as well.

And Sprague Cleghorn, too.

Dill Pickle 02-11-2012 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fozz (Post 43947121)
Kind of ridiculous and laughable to use stats and only stats to compare these players.

using stats! in sports!? :laugh:

windycity 02-11-2012 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davebo (Post 43945075)
And what has Sundin won in this league?

Sweet. ****. All.

Well let's be honest about it, it's a hell of a lot easier to win the cup in a 6 team league than in a 30 team league

And no I'm not saying sundin was as god as those HOFers but he was a high quality player

MXD 02-11-2012 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dill Pickle (Post 43947615)
using stats! in sports!? :laugh:

Using stats to compare the best defensive d-men of all-time with a center that was never, ever the Top-5 of his generation is ... actually more than laughable.

MXD 02-11-2012 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windycity (Post 43947693)
Well let's be honest about it, it's a hell of a lot easier to win the cup in a 6 team league than in a 30 team league

Winning the Cup is somewhat easier.
This said, if you're the 10th best Center in the league...

You are a very, very average 2nd line center.

Dayjobdave 02-11-2012 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 43947511)
Well, yeah, but Mahovlich arguably had his best years (if you disconsider that 48-goal-season), and certainly his best playoffs, with Montreal, and besides, not convinced Mahovlich would make an Habs Top-10 (regardless of time spent with the team).

I mean....

Plante
Roy
Dryden
Durnan
Harvey
Robinson
(Chelios)
(Moore)
Beliveau
Morenz
(Lalonde)
Lafleur
Richard
Geoffrion

Parenthesis are for not-so-obvious cases (either didn't play that much in Montreal, extremely close to Mahovlich or was really ancient, respectively).

In no way, shape or form Mahovlich is amongst the Top-10 players to have skated for the Habs. Some people would add Henri Richard to this list as well.

And Sprague Cleghorn, too.

You did actually say 'Mahovlich had his best years in Montreal if you don't count his best year, which was in Toronto' :-)

That being said, while he's arguably top 10 in Montreal franchise history, it goes without saying that Toronto should NEVER have traded him in the first place, and it did seem like he scored a goal on every shift in Montreal.

Sundin had a nice career. Maybe you guys could give him his night.

x74Pacioretty74x 02-11-2012 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windycity (Post 43947693)
Well let's be honest about it, it's a hell of a lot easier to win the cup in a 6 team league than in a 30 team league

And no I'm not saying sundin was as god as those HOFers but he was a high quality player

Noones arguing sundin wasn't a high quality player because he was, but the poster comparing him to those players just shows ignorance.

windycity 02-11-2012 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 43947727)
Winning the Cup is somewhat easier.
This said, if you're the 10th best Center in the league...

You are a very, very average 2nd line center.

Somewhat easier? A lot easier

And the talent pool is a lot deeper overall now albeit diluted on a per team basis

coolasprICE 02-11-2012 10:58 AM

*News alert

Canadian Presse - Toronto, Ontario
Maple Leafs, commonly refered to as the ''Laughs'', might make the playoffs this year; however they are still generations away from winning a cup, and even that is a longshot given the franchises' history and identity.
February 11th, 2012

Et le But 02-11-2012 11:01 AM

To be fair Sundin might have been better had he not wasted his career with the Merdiques and Leafs.

That being said, he wasted his career with the Nords and Leafs, so screw him.

windycity 02-11-2012 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habs4life74 (Post 43948073)
Noones arguing sundin wasn't a high quality player because he was, but the poster comparing him to those players just shows ignorance.

I was responding to the comment that sundin won sweet **** all. Not really a fair comparison given #s of teams now vs then. Highly unlikely we'd have 24 cups had there been 30 teams since the Nhl's inception

MXD 02-11-2012 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dayjobdave (Post 43948059)
You did actually say 'Mahovlich had his best years in Montreal if you don't count his best year, which was in Toronto' :-)

That being said, while he's arguably top 10 in Montreal franchise history, it goes without saying that Toronto should NEVER have traded him in the first place, and it did seem like he scored a goal on every shift in Montreal.

Sundin had a nice career. Maybe you guys could give him his night.

My point was that Mahovlich career in TO wasn't always consistent. Yeah, he had that big season, was often and a letdown, and nobody will argue that he had his best playoffs in Montreal.

BLONG7 02-11-2012 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davebo (Post 43945075)
And what has Sundin won in this league?

Sweet. ****. All.

He was still a great player...glad to see the Leafs show him his due...classy guy.

Dayjobdave 02-11-2012 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 43948223)
My point was that Mahovlich career in TO wasn't always consistent. Yeah, he had that big season, was often and a letdown, and nobody will argue that he had his best playoffs in Montreal.

He is actually a great comparison to Sundin because its not so much that he wasn't consistent, it's more that management (Imlach - ptoooo!) expected him to be the best player in the world on every shift, and they discounted the contributions that he did make.

Not unlike the media in Toronto with Sundin. (Although they seem to forget that now.)

But Mahovlich still counts as a Leaf, not a Hab. Even all those great goals he scored for you guys in the playoffs...they were really Leaf goals. :-)

chaosrevolver 02-11-2012 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrizzLeaf (Post 43944977)
Sundin: GP 1346 / 564 G / 785 A / for 1349 Pts ( 1.002 PPG)


Maurice Richard: GP 978 / 544 G / 421 A / for 965 Pts ( 0.987 PPG)


Howie Morenz: GP 550 / 270 G / 197 A / for 467 Pts ( 0.849 PPG)


Doug Harvey: GP 1113 / 88 G / 452 A / for 540 Pts ( 0.485 PPG)


Jean Beliveau: GP 1125 / 507 G / 712A / for 1219 Pts ( 1.084 PPG)


Guy Lafleur: GP 1127 / 560 G / 793 A / for 1353 Pts ( 1.201 PPG)


Just thought I would post their respective stats since the OP failed to actually make any kind of comparison other than opinion.;)

Really?

Sundin:
Individual Awards - NHL 2nd All-Star Team (2x)
Top-5 in Goals - 2002
Top-5 in Assists - N/A
Top-5 in Points - 2002

-----------------

Richard:
Individual Awards - Hart Trophy, NHL 1st All-Star Team (8x), NHL 2nd All-Star Team (6x)
Top-5 in Goals - 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957
Top-5 in Assists - N/A
Top-5 in Points - 1945, 1946, 1947, 1950, 1951, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956

-----------------

Morenz:
Individual Awards - Hart Trophy (3x), NHL 1st All-Star Team (2x), NHL 2nd All-Star Team
Top-5 in Goals - 1925, 1926, 1927, 1928, 1929, 1930, 1931, 1932
Top-5 in Assists - 1928, 1929, 1931, 1932, 1935
Top-5 in Points - 1925, 1926, 1927, 1928, 1929, 1931, 1932

----------------

Harvey was a defenseman...and is often considered the second best defenseman of all-time.

----------------

Beliveau:
Individual Awards - Hart Trophy (2x), Art Ross, Conn Smythe. NHL 1st All-Star Team (6x), NHL 2nd All-Star Team (4x)
Top-5 in Goals - 1955, 1956, 1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1964
Top-5 in Assists - 1956, 1957, 1959, 1961, 1963, 1964, 1966
Top-5 in Points - 1955, 1956, 1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1964, 1966

-----------------

Lafleur:
Individual Awards - Hart Trophy (2x), Art Ross (3x), Conn Smythe, NHL 1st All-Star Team (6x)
Top-5 in Goals - 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979
Top-5 in Assists - 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980
Top-5 in Points - 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980


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