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-   -   Is Paiement like Wiseman? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=110525)

Fletch 10-26-2004 10:12 AM

Is Paiement like Wiseman?
 
Just started to wonder why Wiseman went in the 8th round. I first noticed that he was drafted as a 19 year old. Secondly I noticed that in the year he was drafted, he averaged over a point per game leading his team in scoring (ahead of Spezza, who was about 2 years younger and played in a few less games). The prior year, though, he scored a point in about every other game. Sounds like a late-bloomer, and under very similar circumstances to Paiement.

Just thought it was interesting to see some consistency. Meaning, late-bloomer, 19 year old, being drafted in the 8th round.

Bird Law 10-26-2004 11:10 AM

But didn't Wiseman do that as an overager? Paiment did it the year before he was an overager also. And I think that's important to notice. A lot of overagers score like crazy since they are more mature and older then their counterparts.

BLACKBURN 10-26-2004 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
Just thought it was interesting to see some consistency. Meaning, late-bloomer, 19 year old, being drafted in the 8th round.

To be honest I think that coincedence is a better term. Obviously they play different positions and are nothing alike in style of play. I have nothing against either guy, I just dont understand why you are comparing them. I could understand if they were both forwards or defenceman but apart from their draft age and positions I dont see any similarities. The points thing dosent really seem important as they both played/play in different leagues and different positions.

Hopefully paiement is a late bloomer, but Chad has'nt done anything spectacular thus far in his pro career and doesent seem to be a set part of the teams future. Whil'st talking about high point totals, a guy I'm keeping my eye on is Petruzalek (12 7 12 19). A guy who I wanted the Rangers to take before the draft was Bahensky, he seems to be doing pretty well up in Saskatoon with 10 goals in 13 games. On the flip side I'm dissapointed by Dubinsky's start, hopefully he will pick it up as the year progresses.

It'll be interesting if Paiement can keep this pace up over the duration of the year. If he does I might become a believer :)

Melrose_Jr. 10-26-2004 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLACKBURN
Chad has'nt done anything spectacular thus far in his pro career and doesent seem to be a set part of the teams future.

Here's a new question, is Wiseman like Nils Ekman in that, despite leading the 'Pack offensively last year, few people can say a good thing about him or would consider him a future Ranger?

Levitate 10-26-2004 12:33 PM

bahensky has 6 goals and 7 assists in 13 games...

Fletch 10-26-2004 12:43 PM

Why am I comparing the two?
 
I'll spell it out again.

Regardless of position, and position does not matter one bit when determining where a player is drafted, these could be two similar situations.

The original question was why was Wiseman drafted in the eighth round, which I then drew a comparison to Paiement, who also was drafted in the eighth round. Don't know who's on a better team, but Wiseman did lead his team in scoring the year in which he was drafted.

Both were drafted at the age of 19 (which yes, they're a bit older, but they're none older than a draftee who's playing the season in which they're drafted. Many future NHLers play two seasons in juniors (to the age of 20) prior to moving on.

I further noted that Wiseman scored at about a point-per-game rate, after a season in which he was scoring at 1/2 that clip, believing that a reason for him not being drafted as an 18 year old was because he was under the radar. Paiement too flew under the radar as he had a couple sleepy seasons while really breaking out at the age of 19, instead of 18 like others, which is a prime reason for his slippage.

Never said Wiseman was a star, or is going to be a star, but I'm sure he's accomplished more than anybody thought when they passed him up as an 18 year old, as well as when he was passed up for seven rounds. I did, however, draw comparisons to a fellow eighth rounder, Paiement. Not sure if I said anything more than that.

in the hall 10-26-2004 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
Here's a new question, is Wiseman like Nils Ekman in that, despite leading the 'Pack offensively last year, few people can say a good thing about him or would consider him a future Ranger?

good point, I thought about Ekman immediately after reading that comment. Gotta give these kids a chance to do it at the NHL level. They've succeeded all other places.

BLACKBURN 10-27-2004 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLACKBURN
a set part of the teams future.

By set part I meant a sure fire NHL'er. To me Chad is not a guy that I EXPECT to play 82 games a year in the NHL. Just my opinion, I have nothing against Wiseman, he may become a regular but I wont hold my breath.

AG9NK35DT8* 10-27-2004 03:11 PM

NYR needs LW's so why not give him a legit spot on the second line, and with rewards, first line time. I think the kid can be a consistant 20 goal player give or take a few here and there. I dont know why a majority of NYR fan's are so down on him.Oh yeah becuase if he is not a 1st rounder he's no good or what ever the reasoning is.He is 24 still young and shoul d get a shot, how does NYR expect to get young guys scoring just say ok your suppose to score so go out and do it. You give these kids a shot if they are known to have the potential, in time hopefully all comes together ( example... Doan ) look at what he became ,PHX just kept him around and look, SanJose also gave cheechoo a shot and look in his first full season he scores 27 goals. Listen as all you hockey fans know the ones who become good solid players some times are the ones You dont expect.If its scoring or playmaking or whatever

Also what does NYR have to lose with giving Wiseman time, we are not going any where any time soon, so if he plays 80 games and scores 10 who cares , its not like if he wasnt in the lineup they would have done any better, really?

True Blue 10-27-2004 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AG9NK35DT8
NYR needs LW's so why not give him a legit spot on the second line, and with rewards, first line time. I think the kid can be a consistant 20 goal player give or take a few here and there. I dont know why a majority of NYR fan's are so down on him.

Several things:
First of all, no one is down on him. But most of us view him realistically. One does not enter a season with Chad Wiseman penciled in on the 2nd line. If he were to win the job, that is one thing. But to simply hand it to him is insane. Second of all, he has shown ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to indicate that he is a 20 goal player. Scoring in the minors and the bigs is two different things. Most of us judged him by what we saw at the NHL level. And there was nothing to indicate that he is a top 6 forward.

Fletch 10-27-2004 03:55 PM

Tb...
 
if he keeps up this type of scoring in Hartford, it will likely be his to lose, I believe, as there really isn't much competition for that position at the moment.

True Blue 10-27-2004 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
if he keeps up this type of scoring in Hartford, it will likely be his to lose, I believe, as there really isn't much competition for that position at the moment.

Here's hoping that he is one of those players who gets better with every level of competition (y'know....like mah' man Dale :eek: )

Fletch 10-27-2004 04:11 PM

Eggsactly...
 
personally I'm not going to project whether he makes it, but still stand by the comment that if he excels beyond last season in the AHL, he could very well be in the driver's seat for a position with the Rangers, unless unseated. I actually didn't think he looked out of place at the NHL level in his brief stint. Can't say I saw a 20-goal scorer either, but he's still youngish.

AG9NK35DT8* 10-27-2004 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Several things:
First of all, no one is down on him. But most of us view him realistically. One does not enter a season with Chad Wiseman penciled in on the 2nd line. If he were to win the job, that is one thing. But to simply hand it to him is insane. Second of all, he has shown ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to indicate that he is a 20 goal player. Scoring in the minors and the bigs is two different things. Most of us judged him by what we saw at the NHL level. And there was nothing to indicate that he is a top 6 forward.

How many games have u seen him play, and be honest im sure not more than what he has with NYR.And u pass judgement that quickly.
your not down on him why dont u read what you wrote again, and SECOND OF ALL, YOU got YOUR OPINION and I got mine, is that ok with you. :dunno:

And MOST OF ALL also take the time to ready what i wrote, as u obviousley didnt and were quick to jump down my throat, its only hockey talk just relax it may be the only thing u got which i would assume cause u seem offended, but i never said GIVE HIM THE SPOT go read it again i said " HE DESERVES A LEGIT SHOT " open your eyes man and read, then jump down my throat. there is a differenec from what u said said and i wrote.

BLACKBURN 10-28-2004 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Several things:
First of all, no one is down on him. But most of us view him realistically. One does not enter a season with Chad Wiseman penciled in on the 2nd line. If he were to win the job, that is one thing. But to simply hand it to him is insane. Second of all, he has shown ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to indicate that he is a 20 goal player. Scoring in the minors and the bigs is two different things. Most of us judged him by what we saw at the NHL level. And there was nothing to indicate that he is a top 6 forward.

Exactly, I think that the biggest mistake people make is to look at minor/junior stats and say well if he scored that much in the minors hell score x amount in the NHL. Also people bring up Elkman, surely we should take a little from his situation with the Rangers. Scored in the minors, didnt get a chance, was traded. Will Wiseman get a chance? Who knows.

Fletch 10-28-2004 08:14 AM

To a cetain extent...
 
production in juniors is often a necessity if you are to be taken seriously at higher levels. You ain't puttin' a guy on a top line in the AHL at age 20 who tallied 20 points in 60 games at the junior level the prior year, and further, you don't get too excited about him. Whereas you do get excited over a guy who tallies 100 points or so in juniors and make the assumption that he's ready to jump to the next level, whatever that may be.

Melrose_Jr. 10-28-2004 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLACKBURN
Also people bring up Elkman, surely we should take a little from his situation with the Rangers. Scored in the minors, didnt get a chance, was traded. .

You're leaving out a rather large part of the Ekman story. Goes to SJS, scores 22 goals, 55 points in his first NHL season. Clearly, this was a player who deserved a "chance", especially when you consider what the Rangers LW looked like at the time.

Fletch 10-28-2004 08:49 AM

I personally thought...
 
that he could've been Hlavac's replacement on Nedved and Dvorak's left a couple seasons ago. I was amazed that he didn't get a real look. I honestly didn't expect a 22 goal season out of him either, but at a minimum, he deserved a fair shot.

True Blue 10-28-2004 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AG9NK35DT8
How many games have u seen him play, and be honest im sure not more than what he has with NYR.

Unless you happened to catch his AHL games, I'm going to say that I've seen him play more than you.

"your not down on him why dont u read what you wrote again, and SECOND OF ALL, YOU got YOUR OPINION and I got mine, is that ok with you."

Please point out an example of me being down on him. Saying that I do not believe that a kid is a future 20 goal scorer at the NHL level, is not being down on him. It's me voicing my opinion. Much like you do yours. And speaking of your opinion, you are more than entitled to it. However, when you come to this board and post it, chances are that you WILL get comments on it. If you do not want respones, then do not post. If you want only those who agree to respond to you, you are in the wrong place.

"And MOST OF ALL also take the time to ready what i wrote, as u obviousley didnt and were quick to jump down my throat, its only hockey talk just relax it may be the only thing u got which i would assume cause u seem offended"

Here's a quick lesson for you. When one responds with a different view of your OPINION, it is NOT jumping down your throat. Want to see throat jumping? Ask SOS about some of our earlier arguments. Both me and him were guilty of it. Since then, we have managed to see that healthy debate between 2 people, even when their OPINIONS are different, is good for you. If you cannot handle talking to people with different views, then you are in the wrong place. Not agreeing with your posts is hardly the same as getting offended. I doubt that you qualify as one of those that can offend me.

"but i never said GIVE HIM THE SPOT go read it again i said " HE DESERVES A LEGIT SHOT " open your eyes man and read"

NYR needs LW's so why not give him a legit spot on the second line, and with rewards, first line time.

That is your statement. I'm sorry, but saying let's give him a spot on the second line, and reward him with the first line is hardly an example of GIVING some one a SHOT. It reads let's HAND him a spot.

"Based on what? Do you have the power to tell the future"

Can't tell the future, but I can use my own judgement when it comes to things that I SEE. Based on what? Based upon what I see with my eyes.

BLACKBURN 10-28-2004 10:58 AM

[QUOTE=Melrose_Jr.]You're leaving out a rather large part of the Ekman story/QUOTE]

Yes, hence me saying "his situation with the Rangers." I thought that I had made it quite clear. I am not a moron and indeed have knowlege of Ekman's sucess in San Jose. That's not my point, the whole Ekman reference came up because I was saying I didnt think Wiseman would get a legit shot. That doesnt mean he dosent deserve one, but I dont think he will.

"Whereas you do get excited over a guy who tallies 100 points or so in juniors and make the assumption that he's ready to jump to the next level"

I dont think that statement is really accurate. Take a guy like Layne Ulmer for example -

2000-2001 - gp 68 g 63 a 56 pts 119

No one thought "that's great we signed him as he will be our first line center in a couple of years." They thought, put up lots of points in juniors, has some skill but probably not enough to take it to the next level. He may have a few games in he NHL, but he is not considered a future regular (by anyone I've spoken to).

Junior stats are a guide, but to me that's all they are. there are so many factors that can affect them that I dont think they can be used as an accurate assesment of a players performance. Just my opinion.

Fletch 10-28-2004 11:58 AM

OK Blackburn...
 
my bad choice of words...how about this: the amount of goals scored in the NHL is positively correlated with the amount of goals scored in juniorrs. You seem to make a blanket statement that junior statistics are meaningless, although for many future NHLers it's often the basis for where they're drafted and have scouts saying things like sure-fire NHLer, future top liner, etc.

BLACKBURN 10-28-2004 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fletch
You seem to make a blanket statement that junior statistics are meaningless

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLACKBURN
Junior stats are a guide, but to me that's all they are.

Either you're not reading my posts, or you are mis-interpreting what I am saying. Anyway this thread dose'nt seem to be going anywhere.

Brooklyn Ranger 10-28-2004 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
You're leaving out a rather large part of the Ekman story. Goes to SJS, scores 22 goals, 55 points in his first NHL season. Clearly, this was a player who deserved a "chance", especially when you consider what the Rangers LW looked like at the time.

And let's not forget he scored 20 points in 43 games for Tampa Bay the year before he was traded to the Ranger organization. And had 30 points in 38 games with Djurgardens (SEL) the year before he played for the Wolfpack.

He's also the leading point scorer this year (13 points in 13 games) for Djurgardens right now. Bet they aren't complaining about lockout in Sweden! :p:

Fletch 10-28-2004 02:30 PM

Not reading is what I was doing...
 
re-read your post and didn't read the last line. I took your original post to an extreme because you did only take one side of it. I do agree that just because a guy scored 100 points in juniors doesn't make him a 50 point scorer in the NHL automatically. I do also somewhat agree that it should be used as a guide, but it is an important guide which of course should not be the only factor considered.

AG9NK35DT8* 10-28-2004 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue
Unless you happened to catch his AHL games, I'm going to say that I've seen him play more than you.

"your not down on him why dont u read what you wrote again, and SECOND OF ALL, YOU got YOUR OPINION and I got mine, is that ok with you."

Please point out an example of me being down on him. Saying that I do not believe that a kid is a future 20 goal scorer at the NHL level, is not being down on him. It's me voicing my opinion. Much like you do yours. And speaking of your opinion, you are more than entitled to it. However, when you come to this board and post it, chances are that you WILL get comments on it. If you do not want respones, then do not post. If you want only those who agree to respond to you, you are in the wrong place.

"And MOST OF ALL also take the time to ready what i wrote, as u obviousley didnt and were quick to jump down my throat, its only hockey talk just relax it may be the only thing u got which i would assume cause u seem offended"

Here's a quick lesson for you. When one responds with a different view of your OPINION, it is NOT jumping down your throat. Want to see throat jumping? Ask SOS about some of our earlier arguments. Both me and him were guilty of it. Since then, we have managed to see that healthy debate between 2 people, even when their OPINIONS are different, is good for you. If you cannot handle talking to people with different views, then you are in the wrong place. Not agreeing with your posts is hardly the same as getting offended. I doubt that you qualify as one of those that can offend me.

"but i never said GIVE HIM THE SPOT go read it again i said " HE DESERVES A LEGIT SHOT " open your eyes man and read"

NYR needs LW's so why not give him a legit spot on the second line, and with rewards, first line time.

That is your statement. I'm sorry, but saying let's give him a spot on the second line, and reward him with the first line is hardly an example of GIVING some one a SHOT. It reads let's HAND him a spot.

"Based on what? Do you have the power to tell the future"

Can't tell the future, but I can use my own judgement when it comes to things that I SEE. Based on what? Based upon what I see with my eyes.

ok how about this u seem to be very angry about this situation, dont know why but you are, so to make u feel better i will just say it " You are RIGHT and I AM WRONG", HOPE YOUR HAPPY NOW U CAN SMILE CAUSE U KNOW YOU ARE RIGHT. not gonna waste my time bickering over this you got your opinion and i got mine.

RELAX MAN, its only hockey.


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