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Mats26 02-13-2012 11:23 AM

7 core system
 
The building process on how to build a contender:
Here is my take. Let's look at the larger picture. We need to first establish a 7 core system. The hockey brains like Pierre McGuire and company, they talk about it all the time. A team needs the following 7 core positions to start a build.

1 – Goalie
2 - Big ShutDown D
3 - PP QB D
4 – Big First Line Center
5 - Shutdown Centerman
6 - Power Forward
7 - Sniper

When DL took over we started to fill in those positions. If we look at what we have and rate the positions…i.e (1 is best – 2 average - 3 needs improvement) our ratings IMO look like this:

1 – Goalie (Quick) Rating :1
2 - Big ShutDown D (Mitchel) Rating :2
3 - PP QB D (Doughty) Rating :1
4 – Big First Line Center (Kopitar) Rating :1
5 - Shutdown Centerman (Richards) Rating :1
6 - Power Forward (Brown) Rating :3
7 – Sniper (Williams) Rating :3

So we need help on the power forward and sniper positions. Brown and Williams are complementary players in these roles. This is why I feel we are still in a building mode and not contenders yet. We still don’t have all the core pieces in place.

So how do we get those pieces?
Well, draft, sign a UFA or trade for them and find the right fit. That is DL’s job not ours. I think he has established the 5 pieces of the core, now we need to go out and get the last 2 and fill the rest of the roster with complementary players at every position. Then we hope for good chemistry and a little luck and we may be on our way.

The road is still rocky because I don't think DL has finished putting it together.

Capn Brown 02-13-2012 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats26 (Post 44062695)
1 – Goalie (Quick) Rating :1
2 - Big ShutDown D (Mitchell) Rating :2
3 - PP QB D (Doughty) Rating :1
4 – Big First Line Center (Kopitar) Rating :1
5 - Shutdown Centerman (Richards) Rating :1
6 - Power Forward (Brown) Rating :3
7 – Sniper (Williams) Rating :3


For those who possess difficulty reading between the lines, I'll spell it out for you: Jack Johnson is expendable!!! :nod:

SMoneyMonkey 02-13-2012 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats26 (Post 44062695)
1 – Goalie (Quick) Rating :1
2 - Big ShutDown D (Mitchell) Rating :2
3 - PP QB D (Doughty) Rating :1
4 – Big First Line Center (Kopitar) Rating :1
5 - Shutdown Centerman (Richards) Rating :1
6 - Power Forward (Johnson) Rating :1
7 – Sniper (Williams) Rating :3

In your heart, you know it to be true.

drugold 02-13-2012 11:41 AM

Nice refreshing post Mats.
I wish Johnny Utah and Tomd could take the time and post a constructive argument like this instead of behaving like a Troll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats26 (Post 44062695)
The building process on how to build a contender:
Here is my take. Let's look at the larger picture. We need to first establish a 7 core system. The hockey brains like Pierre McGuire and company, they talk about it all the time. A team needs the following 7 core positions to start a build.

1 – Goalie
2 - Big ShutDown D
3 - PP QB D
4 – Big First Line Center
5 - Shutdown Centerman
6 - Power Forward
7 - Sniper

When DL took over we started to fill in those positions. If we look at what we have and rate the positions…i.e (1 is best – 2 average - 3 needs improvement) our ratings IMO look like this:

1 – Goalie (Quick) Rating :1
2 - Big ShutDown D (Mitchel) Rating :2
3 - PP QB D (Doughty) Rating :1
4 – Big First Line Center (Kopitar) Rating :1
5 - Shutdown Centerman (Richards) Rating :1
6 - Power Forward (Brown) Rating :3
7 – Sniper (Williams) Rating :3

So we need help on the power forward and sniper positions. Brown and Williams are complementary players in these roles. This is why I feel we are still in a building mode and not contenders yet. We still don’t have all the core pieces in place.

So how do we get those pieces?
Well, draft, sign a UFA or trade for them and find the right fit. That is DL’s job not ours. I think he has established the 5 pieces of the core, now we need to go out and get the last 2 and fill the rest of the roster with complementary players at every position. Then we hope for good chemistry and a little luck and we may be on our way.

The road is still rocky because I don't think DL has finished putting it together.


WhatTheFox 02-13-2012 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats26 (Post 44062695)

1 – Goalie (Quick) Rating :1
2 - Big ShutDown D (Mitchel) Rating :2
3 - PP QB D (Doughty) Rating :1
4 – Big First Line Center (Kopitar) Rating :1
5 - Shutdown Centerman (Richards) Rating :1

6 - Power Forward (Brown) Rating :3
7 – Sniper (Williams) Rating :3

I'd probably rate Kopitar and Richards as 2s. I agree with the rest of your rankings.

null33 02-13-2012 12:01 PM

Brown is a 2 (Average).

Otherwise, what an interesting tool this "Seven Core" system is.

Duc620 02-13-2012 12:06 PM

Great post!

This system needs a "depth" variable. So you'd have B and C players behind your number 1 in each category. In my mind, that means we need to keep Johnson as the developing B who will replace Mitchell as the shutdown defenseman.

And Williams is not really a "pure sniper", he's more playmaker than sniper, imho.

LombardiTool 02-13-2012 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capn Brown (Post 44063003)
For those who possess difficulty reading between the lines, I'll spell it out for you: Jack Johnson is expendable!!! :nod:

I think Jack Johnson is tradeable in that he can be a chip in a deal that brings quality back. I dont think he is expendable.

ShattStar03 02-13-2012 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LombardiTool (Post 44065471)
I think Jack Johnson is tradeable in that he can be a chip in a deal that brings quality back. I dont think he is expendable.

Couldn't agree more.

Dropdapuck 02-13-2012 01:17 PM

Surely, systematized thinking is an important part of organizational success. The Lombardi hire brought that type of thinking to the fore. I believed then, and continue to believe that it was a great improvement. But there are pitfalls in giving too much place to rigid priorities. A decent example is the toy from my childhood-- paint by numbers art work.

In a competitive environment, when a system is widely known, it will inspire very creative counter attacks and cheaper counter-trends. What I worry about with Lombardi, and this can be seen in his reaction and performance through the critical arc that lead to the firing of Murray and it's aftermath, is that his leadership is not flexible enough to continually adjust his system commitments. There is a point when doggedly building through a preconceived war pan needs to give way to battlefield realities.

The above build model suggests that we need to acquire a power forward and a sniper but it doesn't tell us when this trendy idea becomes too expensive. I think that this deep into a rebuild flexibility and counter-tactics are needed.

Summary: Lombardi seems to be a decent to very good war planning general but the jury is still out on whether or not he is a good battlefield general (with some troubling evidence that he is not). And, any good system has to provide for flexibility and the ability to change when present circumstances warrant.

damacles1156 02-13-2012 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dropdapuck (Post 44067779)
Surely, systematized thinking is an important part of organizational success. The Lombardi hire brought that type of thinking to the fore. I believed then, and continue to believe that it was a great improvement. But there are pitfalls in giving too much place to rigid priorities. A decent example is the toy from my childhood-- paint by numbers art work.

In a competitive environment, when a system is widely known, it will inspire very creative counter attacks and cheaper counter-trends. What I worry about with Lombardi, and this can be seen in his reaction and performance through the critical arc that lead to the firing of Murray and it's aftermath, is that his leadership is not flexible enough to continually adjust his system commitments. There is a point when doggedly building through a preconceived war pan needs to give way to battlefield realities.

The above build model suggests that we need to acquire a power forward and a sniper but it doesn't tell us when this trendy idea becomes too expensive. I think that this deep into a rebuild flexibility and counter-tactics are needed.

Summary: Lombardi seems to be a decent to very good war planning general but the jury is still out on whether or not he is a good battlefield general (with some troubling evidence that he is not). And, any good system has to provide for flexibility and the ability to change when present circumstances warrant.

Snipers (so far) have been too expensive (a least for Lombardi).
have to hope Tyler is the scorer we hope he is.

Capn Brown 02-13-2012 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LombardiTool (Post 44065471)
I think Jack Johnson is tradeable in that he can be a chip in a deal that brings quality back. I dont think he is expendable.


Johnson for Landeskog!!!

1 – Goalie (Quick) Rating :1
2 - Big ShutDown D (Mitchell) Rating :2
3 - PP QB D (Doughty) Rating :1
4 – Big First Line Center (Kopitar) Rating :1
5 - Shutdown Centerman (Richards) Rating :1
6 - Power Forward (Landeskog) Rating : 2 or 1
7 – Sniper (Williams) Rating :3

:handclap:


Hopefully, Toffoli or Kozun can become our eventual sniper.

Snyper8 02-13-2012 01:53 PM

i wouldnt agree with rating doughty a 1. his qb skills are not very good.
agree with the other ratings.

Capn Brown 02-13-2012 02:03 PM

Could Parise be a sniper?

ean 02-13-2012 02:43 PM

The 7 Tool thing sounds like they just took the 10-11 Bruins and categorized their 7 best players...

BallPointHammer 02-13-2012 03:57 PM

Nice post.

I thought it would be interesting to point out the players currently under contract for 2013-14.

Doughty, Johnson, Greene
Richards, Kopitar, Williams, Brown, Westgarth

Deslaurier, Roach
Vey, Czarnik, Toffoli, Weal, Andreoff
Berube

Quick = UFA

Assuming Quick is signed to an extension - the model, the OP's version and the reality of Dean Lombardi's plan are in pretty close agreement.

tigermask48 02-13-2012 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc620 (Post 44064563)
Great post!

This system needs a "depth" variable. So you'd have B and C players behind your number 1 in each category. In my mind, that means we need to keep Johnson as the developing B who will replace Mitchell as the shutdown defenseman.

And Williams is not really a "pure sniper", he's more playmaker than sniper, imho.

If you apply this logic I'd say Greene or Scuderi would be the B to Mitchell's A and Voinov, or Martinez would be the B to Doughty's A... Which still makes Johnson somewhat expendable... Agree with Williams though in that he isn't a true sniper but more of an all around skilled offensive forward.

Mats26 02-13-2012 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer (Post 44063683)
I'd probably rate Kopitar and Richards as 2s. I agree with the rest of your rankings.

I disagree. There is no way we are upgrading our 1A center nor will we for many years. Kopitar can match up against any 1A center in this league, and put up 70-80 pts on one of the lowest scoring teams in the NHL. There are teams out there that only dream to have that kind of player on their team. Giving him a rating of 1 means we are set at that postion and I am glad we have him.

Richards, who better to have on the ice with 30 secs left and a 1 goal lead. You are not going to find a better leader and competitor with the on ice vision he has. How will you upgrade that position. We are set for the shutdown role for years.

acrethrills 02-13-2012 05:19 PM

I have serious issues with calling Williams our sniper. He's currently ranked 400th in the league in shooting percentage. 6.7%. Richards needs to shoot more, he's converting at a rate almost twice that of Williams. Williams is not a sniper. He's ranked 32nd in the league in shots, and 143rd in goals. That is not a sniper.

Johnny Utah 02-13-2012 05:28 PM

It doesn't take a troll to argue some of these points....

Williams a sniper? Ha.

I love Mitchell, but he's a 34 year old shutdown D about to be a UFA...get me a 25 year old shutdown guy and I will say he is a core guy.

sjmay* 02-13-2012 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Utah (Post 44078711)
It doesn't take a troll to argue some of these points....

Williams a sniper? Ha.

I love Mitchell, but he's a 34 year old shutdown D about to be a UFA...get me a 25 year old shutdown guy and I will say he is a core guy.

I actually agree with this.

Mitchell isn't core, he is a shut down D, but if Muzzin can play that game, he would be considered Core.

Williams isn't a sniper...Gagne is more of a sniper etc..

If we want "core" to match with Kopitar, Quick, Brown, Richards, and Doughty,

Then you deal for guys in that age range, that fit what you need, and that's pretty damn expensive...but..in the end, could very well be worth it.

Moses Doughty 02-13-2012 05:52 PM

Really like this core system, except for Brown. Hes better than a 3, hes a solid 2

Johnny Utah 02-13-2012 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjmay (Post 44079401)
I actually agree with this.

Mitchell isn't core, he is a shut down D, but if Muzzin can play that game, he would be considered Core.

Williams isn't a sniper...Gagne is more of a sniper etc..

If we want "core" to match with Kopitar, Quick, Brown, Richards, and Doughty,

Then you deal for guys in that age range, that fit what you need, and that's pretty damn expensive...but..in the end, could very well be worth it.

That is the Kings core. Add Johnson too. Mitchell, Williams, Gagne are all free agent compliments to the "core." Richardson, Lewis, Loktionov, and Clifford are young guys helping form the rest of the core...hopefully Nolan and King do too...Penner and Stoll are....um....well.....

sjmay* 02-13-2012 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Utah (Post 44079649)
That is the Kings core. Add Johnson too. Mitchell, Williams, Gagne are all free agent compliments to the "core." Richardson, Lewis, Loktionov, and Clifford are young guys helping form the rest of the core...hopefully Nolan and King do too...Penner and Stoll are....um....well.....

I meant using this system, and in the same age range....

using this system, and keeping in the age range, we are missing a sniper, and a shut down D...

I think Muzzin could be that shut down D...

funky 02-13-2012 09:32 PM

Need theory

Kopitar is a #1

Richards is a great shut down guy but I would rather have a dedicated guy like Gaustad so the other 2 can concentrate on offence

Doughty needs a little more growth but he will be a great PP QB

Mitchell is great but may be gone, Greene lacks brains and mobility to be a true shutdown defenseman. JJ is improving by the month but it will never be his MO

Quick is as good as it gets. Vernier will be expendable.

Power and scoring forwards are not here. Brown, Williams and a healthy Gagne make a great supporting cast though

We need 2 forwards in a huge way. Parise is a wet dream via free agency and I think a trade is about the only way to get them.
We have some nice assets that are expendable in JJ, Bernier, Loktionov, Forbort, etc.

Gaustad would be awesome as a free agent and cheaper then Stoll.

I would throw the kitchen sink at Parise, lock up Quick and trade JJ for Stewart.


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