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-   -   Lundqvist gets zero respect! (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=110946)

RANGERDIEHARD 10-28-2004 11:54 PM

Lundqvist gets zero respect!
 
I don't get it at all, why are people having such a hard time realizing that this guy is our #1 prospect AND one of the best goalie prospects today. Were people convinced after he starred in the World Juniors as an 18 year old....no.

Were people convinced after he was fantastic for Team Sweden during the World Championships, posting an incredible 1.64 GAA and a SVP of .925 avg while stopping some of the best players in the world...no.

And then we have his performance so far in the SEL league this year; a league that features many NHLers such as Zetterberg, Huselius, Ekman, Modin, Hossa, Forsberg and the Sedin twins to name a few. In 14 games Lundqvist has a 1.50 GAA and an amazing SVP of .945! To top it off; on eliteprospects.com there is a poll that has Henrik Lundqvist leading in votes for the top goaltender in the SEL so far....beating Mikka Kiprusoff 43% to 35%.

If you ask many posters who they think are the top 5 goalie prospects, in more cases than not Lunqvist's name will not be mentioned. On Hockeysfuture.com he is not even in the top 50 prospects, and Alvaro Montoya is rated above him on our team page! I'm sorry but Lundqvist is the best goalie prospect that the Rangers have had since #35 was stopping pucks for Team USA, it's that simple. I'm not putting him in the Hall Of Fame just yet and I have no idea what kind of players Blackie or Montoya will turn out to be. But at this moment in time, Lundqvist IS our best prospect.

Slats432 10-28-2004 11:59 PM

From my most recent article...

Is there a more underrated prospect than Henrik Lundqvist of the New York Rangers? He leads the Swedish Elite League in numerous goaltending categories, including: goals against average (1.33), save percentage (.954), shutouts (2) and minutes played (540:38).

He isn't underrated by everyone. :D

rnyquist 10-29-2004 12:16 AM

The biggest problem is that he hasn't proven a thing on North American ice. Until he does he'll never get respect because we've all seen how well the swedes develop goalie prospects, heck prospects alone. So until he shows it on NA ice he's nothing more than just a hot euro, one of many. Look at Tellqvist, great in Sweden, junk in NA and brutal in the World Cup. Thats what hurts him is he's easily the only decent Swedish goalie prospect, but with no NA action its hard to rate him.

Personally I think he's #1 in our goalie rankings, but there's a lot of valid reasons why he hasn't been given his due.

RANGERDIEHARD 10-29-2004 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rnyquist
The biggest problem is that he hasn't proven a thing on North American ice. Until he does he'll never get respect because we've all seen how well the swedes develop goalie prospects, heck prospects alone. So until he shows it on NA ice he's nothing more than just a hot euro, one of many. Look at Tellqvist, great in Sweden, junk in NA and brutal in the World Cup. Thats what hurts him is he's easily the only decent Swedish goalie prospect, but with no NA action its hard to rate him.

Personally I think he's #1 in our goalie rankings, but there's a lot of valid reasons why he hasn't been given his due.

Remember we are comparing him to other prospects. To say that the problem is that he hasn't proven a thing on North American ice is not a good reason IMO. Most of these other prospects haven't proven a thing against professional men. I would rather have a prospect that has done well against professionals rather than a prospect that has done well against teenagers. Lundqvist is proving that he can stop shots from pros, and that's more important that him playing on an ice that is 15 feet narrower.

Larry Melnyk 10-29-2004 08:18 AM

If Lundqvist doesn't have respect now, he never will (unti he wins ROY)..And I think the North American arguement is a load of crap...Maybe there been a young goalie or two in the SEL like Lundqvist, I don't know(Tellqvist).....but att 22, yes 22, Lunqvist has already had 2 wildly succesful seasons in the SEL (going on his 3rd), won an SEL championship, taken his team to the finals (where he played just about every game the entire season) the other year, has international experince out the yin yang, almost won a World Championship (not Junniors), is arguably the best goalie in the SEL right now, and is playing against the top competiton in the world and putting up numbers like a 1.50 GAA and a .945 SPCT...

And if there ever is an NHL again, will this "North American" arguement mean anything with the proposed new goalie rules and dimensions? I don't think so, not as it applies to a goalie like Lundfqvist whi is so solid and technically sound...

And it amaze me how some Ranger fans have this guy Montoya ranked ahead of Lundqvist after proving so, so much in North AMerica at the University of Michigan..DOn't get me wrong, the Montoya is good and may be as good a prospect as Lundqvist, but that's as far as it goes because he hasn't proved didley either...

Kodiak 10-29-2004 08:42 AM

Lundqvist gets no respect because Swedish goalies don't have a great track record in the NHL. Guys like Salo and Soderstrom and more recently Holmqvist were quite impressive in the SEL, but did not have what it takes to excel in the NHL. Whether that's fair to Lundqvist or not, that's how it is.

Robertsson 4-ever 10-29-2004 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodiak
Lundqvist gets no respect because Swedish goalies don't have a great track record in the NHL. Guys like Salo and Soderstrom and more recently Holmqvist were quite impressive in the SEL, but did not have what it takes to excel in the NHL. Whether that's fair to Lundqvist or not, that's how it is.

Ypu've got a point there. A AHL guy like Rastislav Stana comes in the SEL this year and is one of the best in thel league. In Sweden we have the idea of overrating our goaltenders as well IMO, as an example I could tell of Tellqvist. In Sweden he is compared to the best among journalists, but he has done nothing in the NA. However, it's also a wish to get that supergoalie for Sweden that's make us overrate them, we deperatly needs a new Tommy Salo. Don't read me wrong, when Salo was on his top, he was among the best in the world.

RANGERDIEHARD 10-29-2004 12:04 PM

I don't buy into the argument that he should not get his fair due because he is from Sweden. At one point in time Americans were viewed as being unskillful players. And while we are on the topic of goaltenders; European goalies in general were perceived as having less talent than North American goalies.

007 10-29-2004 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RANGERDIEHARD
I don't buy into the argument that he should not get his fair due because he is from Sweden. At one point in time Americans were viewed as being unskillful players. And while we are on the topic of goaltenders; European goalies in general were perceived as having less talent than North American goalies.

There are a couple of factors that contribute to why Lundqvist gets no respect coming out of Sweden:

1) Just look at the Rangers' own goalie prospects over the past few years: Holmqvist was great in Sweden (and is playing very well there now again), but came to America and never put it together (sure, the Rangers mishandled him, but he's hardly forced the issue with the Wild, either); Asplund was supposed to be better than Holmqvist at the same age level, but he never even made it over. Add to this the experiences of Tellqvist and going further back Söderström, and you get a lot of skepticism.

2) If Lundqvist makes the grade, he will do so as one of the few Swedes of his generation to make it to the NHL (just Liv and Tellqvist get seriously considered as prospects, it seems, and a lot of people aren't very high on either of them). Lehtonen gets all the respect, and he deserves it, because he's a special talent. It's easier for people to not doubt him, though, because Finland right now has flooded the prospect market with goalies. He's considered the best of a good group, which includes the likes of Toivonen, Noronen, Niittymäki, Toskala, and Ahonen, and who had the path beaten for them by guys like Kiprusoff, Nurminen, and Hurme. Now there's a lot of talk about Tuukka Rask: is he that good? I honestly have no idea, but the fact that he's the best goalie prospect in Finland these days makes people sit up and pay attention.

I love Lundqvist, and I think his abilities should carry him over to the NHL, where I hope they translate well. What I can say is that Lundqvist's strengths (reflexes, positioning), are the type that I hope will translate well to the NHL, where players will shoot from wherever, whenever, unlike in Europe. Lundqvist is not invincible, however. He's not that big, and reportedly, he's not known for a lighting glove hand, which is vital against NHL-quality shooters. Because he's from Sweden, outsiders will pay more attention to these potential weaknesses, whether they are real or not.

As a final note, I don't much care if Lundqvist doesn't get respect from the rest of the league or other fans. As long as he gets support from management and from us, I look forward the Rangers unleashing him on the NHL and him taking everyone by surprise with his talent.

Larry Melnyk 10-29-2004 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 007
There are a couple of factors that contribute to why Lundqvist gets no respect coming out of Sweden:

1) Just look at the Rangers' own goalie prospects over the past few years: Holmqvist was great in Sweden (and is playing very well there now again), but came to America and never put it together (sure, the Rangers mishandled him, but he's hardly forced the issue with the Wild, either); Asplund was supposed to be better than Holmqvist at the same age level, but he never even made it over. Add to this the experiences of Tellqvist and going further back Söderström, and you get a lot of skepticism.

2) If Lundqvist makes the grade, he will do so as one of the few Swedes of his generation to make it to the NHL (just Liv and Tellqvist get seriously considered as prospects, it seems, and a lot of people aren't very high on either of them). Lehtonen gets all the respect, and he deserves it, because he's a special talent. It's easier for people to not doubt him, though, because Finland right now has flooded the prospect market with goalies. He's considered the best of a good group, which includes the likes of Toivonen, Noronen, Niittymäki, Toskala, and Ahonen, and who had the path beaten for them by guys like Kiprusoff, Nurminen, and Hurme. Now there's a lot of talk about Tuukka Rask: is he that good? I honestly have no idea, but the fact that he's the best goalie prospect in Finland these days makes people sit up and pay attention.

I love Lundqvist, and I think his abilities should carry him over to the NHL, where I hope they translate well. What I can say is that Lundqvist's strengths (reflexes, positioning), are the type that I hope will translate well to the NHL, where players will shoot from wherever, whenever, unlike in Europe. Lundqvist is not invincible, however. He's not that big, and reportedly, he's not known for a lighting glove hand, which is vital against NHL-quality shooters. Because he's from Sweden, outsiders will pay more attention to these potential weaknesses, whether they are real or not.

As a final note, I don't much care if Lundqvist doesn't get respect from the rest of the league or other fans. As long as he gets support from management and from us, I look forward the Rangers unleashing him on the NHL and him taking everyone by surprise with his talent.

1) I don't think any of these goalies have had the performance and success (both in the SEL and on the International stage) that Lundqvist has had by the age of 22...

2) I agree about the caution many have because of the past accomplishments and careers of Swedish goalies....But I think Lundqvist--the best gaolie in the SEL for the past two years-- is one of those special talents that you mention.....And I also agree with your point further down that he will be highly scrutinized...But this kid looks like he has poise and focus in spades...

3) I agree that Lundqvist is not invincible, not should he be at 22....I had not hear or seen that his glove hand was a concern, but I will keep that in mind and watch for it..

4) What is NHL-quality shooting? From what I can tell, the NHL quality and skill set (or the ability for it to be used in a game) has been going down year after year and is way over-rated..And right now with the lockout (which will continue for AT LEAST a year), isn't Lundqvist playing against the best collection of talent in the world? And doing the best he ever has?

5) from your lips to Gods ears about the Rangers one day unleashing his talent on the NHL....

007 10-29-2004 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk
1) I don't think any of these goalies have had the performance and success (both in the SEL and on the International stage) that Lundqvist has had by the age of 22...

If you mean just the Swedish goalies, then Tellqvist posted a GAA of 2.07 and 2.08 in two seasons at Djugården at around the same age. He didn't have as much success, perhaps, but he was very good; however, his international experience was more limited. Lehtonen had simply frightening numbers both in the Finnish league and internationally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk
2) I agree about the caution many have because of the past accomplishments and careers of Swedish goalies....But I think Lundqvist--the best gaolie in the SEL for the past two years-- is one of those special talents that you mention.....And I also agree with your point further down that he will be highly scrutinized...But this kid looks like he has poise and focus in spades...

3) I agree that Lundqvist is not invincible, not should he be at 22....I had not hear or seen that his glove hand was a concern, but I will keep that in mind and watch for it..

The glove hand thin is just something I read in two places, I forget where, sorry. I didn't read that it was suspect or a concern, just that it isn't one of his strenths. I could be wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk
4) What is NHL-quality shooting? From what I can tell, the NHL quality and skill set (or the ability for it to be used in a game) has been going down year after year and is way over-rated..And right now with the lockout (which will continue for AT LEAST a year), isn't Lundqvist playing against the best collection of talent in the world? And doing the best he ever has?

Lundqvist is currently playing with some of the best players in the world, but it's still not got the concentration of talent that the NHL has. Plus, most of the players are European. In Europe, players concentrate much more on being in quality shooting positions before they let fly. In the NHL, players will shoot from all over the ice much more. One big difference between the NHL and minor leagues is that some players have hard shots, others have accurate shots, but in the NHL, you get the players who have lasers that hit the net.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk
5) from your lips to Gods ears about the Rangers one day unleashing his talent on the NHL....

:lol:

Kubera55 10-29-2004 02:10 PM

Just chiming in with my two cents . . .

The North American thing is a big deal. Lundqvist has never played on an NHL sized rink before. He's never played in a game whistled by NHL referees. He's never had guys like KT and Holik crashing into his crease. He's never been challenged to a fight on a hockey rink.

Like it or not, these things happen in NA hockey, and not in the SEL. I'm not even talking about a qualitative difference (even though there is one). I'm talking about a distinctly different experience and skill set.

How is he going to react when those big PF's come crashing into him shift-after-shift-after-shift? Is he going to lose it and start taking retaliatory minors? Or is he going to get skittish? Or can he handle the physical play? How will the smaller rink and faster game effect his reflexes and positioning?

No one knows, not even Lundqvist. And while we are all very excited about him, I think it's not unwarranted to list Montoya ahead of him. Montoya is four years younger and well versed in the NA game. While his resume isn't as long or as distinguished as Lundqvists as-a-whole, he has done far more at this age than Lundqvist had in his draft year. That should factor in.

Suffice to say, we're all hoping Lundqvist can translate his SEL dominance into NHL dominance. But it's hardly a given that he will.

Levitate 10-29-2004 02:28 PM

lundqvist is decent size...i wouldn't bash him for being 6' or so, that's fine for a goalie unless you want a giant in net with a giant 5-hole

Larry Melnyk 10-29-2004 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubera55
Just chiming in with my two cents . . .

The North American thing is a big deal. Lundqvist has never played on an NHL sized rink before. He's never played in a game whistled by NHL referees. He's never had guys like KT and Holik crashing into his crease. He's never been challenged to a fight on a hockey rink.

Like it or not, these things happen in NA hockey, and not in the SEL. I'm not even talking about a qualitative difference (even though there is one). I'm talking about a distinctly different experience and skill set.

How is he going to react when those big PF's come crashing into him shift-after-shift-after-shift? Is he going to lose it and start taking retaliatory minors? Or is he going to get skittish? Or can he handle the physical play? How will the smaller rink and faster game effect his reflexes and positioning?

No one knows, not even Lundqvist. And while we are all very excited about him, I think it's not unwarranted to list Montoya ahead of him. Montoya is four years younger and well versed in the NA game. While his resume isn't as long or as distinguished as Lundqvists as-a-whole, he has done far more at this age than Lundqvist had in his draft year. That should factor in.

Suffice to say, we're all hoping Lundqvist can translate his SEL dominance into NHL dominance. But it's hardly a given that he will.

I think you have some good points but also feel you are selling Lundqvist short...

When's the last time a Blackburn, a Dunham, a Montoya, any goalie for that matter was challenged to a fight..This is a total non-issue to me....

But I think you got a major point on the PF issue and how Lundqvist reacts to consistent banging and screening will be very impotant...But everything he has shown so far points to him as a very focused and poised goalie in the SEL and in International games..We Shall see.....

The smaller rink will probably be an adjustment, nothing more, especially with the new rules that will increase the room beyond the net and limit the stickhandliong and roaming of the goaltender...

And is the NHL a faster game now?....What I've seen the past few years is a declining borefest that moves at a snail's pace, even in the POs....Positioning and systems are the key...Just like in the SEL...

I'm not saying Lundqvist is the better prospect then Montoya (but I think he is! :), but I am saying there should be just as many questions about Montoya as there are about Lundqvist...Lundqvist's game has continued to improve in leaps and bounds every year, will Montoya's?

And I do agree that it's not a given, but the I think the prospects are mighty bright...

007 10-29-2004 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levitate
lundqvist is decent size...i wouldn't bash him for being 6' or so, that's fine for a goalie unless you want a giant in net with a giant 5-hole

I just checked Frölunda's website, and apparently he's 188 cm tall. That's well over 6 feet, so either he's grown, or HF has the wrong stats listed. So the whole size thing is out the window. ;)

I agree that it's size is not the biggest factor for goalies. There seems to be a prejudice for bigger goalies of late, however.

RANGERDIEHARD 10-29-2004 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubera55
Just chiming in with my two cents . . .

The North American thing is a big deal. Lundqvist has never played on an NHL sized rink before. He's never played in a game whistled by NHL referees. He's never had guys like KT and Holik crashing into his crease. He's never been challenged to a fight on a hockey rink.

Like it or not, these things happen in NA hockey, and not in the SEL. I'm not even talking about a qualitative difference (even though there is one). I'm talking about a distinctly different experience and skill set.

How is he going to react when those big PF's come crashing into him shift-after-shift-after-shift? Is he going to lose it and start taking retaliatory minors? Or is he going to get skittish? Or can he handle the physical play? How will the smaller rink and faster game effect his reflexes and positioning?

No one knows, not even Lundqvist. And while we are all very excited about him, I think it's not unwarranted to list Montoya ahead of him. Montoya is four years younger and well versed in the NA game. While his resume isn't as long or as distinguished as Lundqvists as-a-whole, he has done far more at this age than Lundqvist had in his draft year. That should factor in.

Suffice to say, we're all hoping Lundqvist can translate his SEL dominance into NHL dominance. But it's hardly a given that he will.


The argument is that Lundqvist is not being assessed as a PROSPECT fairly. All of the things that you have mention are things that happen at the NHL level; no goalie prospect has much if any NHL experience at all. How can we use this as a point specifically aimed at Lundqvist while we don't know how any goalie prospect will fair against the points you mentioned? Do we know how Montoya will act under these conditions? Not playing with college players we will not. The bottom line is that the SEL is a much more indicative of the level of play in the NHL than the NCAA or juniors. Not to mention that this year the SEL has over 30 NHL players in the league.

Levitate 10-29-2004 04:00 PM

Quote:

The argument is that Lundqvist is not being assessed as a PROSPECT fairly. All of the things that you have mention are things that happen at the NHL level; no goalie prospect has much if any NHL experience at all. How can we use this as a point specifically aimed at Lundqvist while we don't know how any goalie prospect will fair against the points you mentioned? Do we know how Montoya will act under these conditions? Not playing with college players we will not. The bottom line is that the SEL is a much more indicative of the level of play in the NHL than the NCAA or juniors. Not to mention that this year the SEL has over 30 NHL players in the league.
i agree in general with this...(well maybe not with the SEL being more indicative of success in the NHL)

lundqvist is underrated i think, partly cuz he was a late round pick and partly because he's off in sweden. out of sight, out of mind as it were

he's basically done everything he can to make his case as being an elite goaltending prospect, we just gotta see how he does over here. he has probably as good a shot as any to become a good NHL goalie. can't wait to see him next year

RANGERDIEHARD 10-30-2004 08:41 AM

More proof......

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=111114


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