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-   -   Talent level by league (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1111247)

saskriders 02-18-2012 11:31 PM

Talent level by league
 
Don't know much about any leagues outside the NHL, but how far removed do you thing the talent of the top level european leagues are removed (I would imagine it would be a lot less then most people in NA think). Also could anyone rank leagues based on talent

Gwyddbwyll 02-19-2012 06:17 AM

NHL
KHL
AHL / SEL
DEL / Finns SML / Swiss NLA
Czech EL / Austria
ECHL / France / Italy / UK / Denmark

ozo 02-19-2012 07:22 AM

NHL
KHL
AHL / SEL / Swiss NLA
DEL / Finns SML
Czech EL / Austria
ECHL / France / Italy / UK / Denmark/ Kazakhstan
Slovakia

Jonimaus 02-19-2012 07:24 AM

Has Finland really dropped that "far"? Not long ago they were right up there with Sweden, possibly slightly worse.

Ciccarelli 02-19-2012 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonimaus (Post 44421407)
Has Finland really dropped that "far"? Not long ago they were right up there with Sweden, possibly slightly worse.

No. That just seems to be the consensus on Hfboards. IMHO SM-liiga has gotten better in recent years. For example a couple of years ago there were pretty much no swedes or slovaks playing in the SM-liiga, now there are plenty of good EHT-level swedes and a line-full of guys that could play for Slovakia in the World Championships (Juraj Mikus is a lock, Kristian Kudroc probably a lock, Tomas Zaborsky would be a lock without the surgery, Josef Stumpel and Richard Lintner might both get a call if they want to participate, Milan Kytnar has been in the talks...) Also the prospect pool is better than it has been for a decade (Granlunds, Pulkkinen, Vatanen, Armia, Barkov, Salomäki..).

Another notable fact is that the player-movement between SEL and SM-liiga has been towards SM-liiga for a couple of years now. Ville Viitaluoma was the only (!!) player going from SM-liiga to SEL, while more than 20 finnish and foreign players went the other direction (from SEL to SM-liiga).

I'd personally still but SEL and SM-liiga in the same category when it comes to talent level as of right now, but if this development continues it shouldn't take all that long before we start considering SM-liiga a step ahead of the SEL.

BTW: the rankings posted above are terrible. Ozo's ranking gets a special mention. Cze Extraliga and the Austrian Erste bank liga equal? Danish league not better than the leagues in UK and France? The Slovakian league worse than ECHL / France / Italy / UK / Denmark/ Kazakhstan?

ozo 02-19-2012 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciccarelli (Post 44421741)
No. That just seems to be the consensus on Hfboards. IMHO SM-liiga has gotten better in recent years. For example a couple of years ago there were pretty much no swedes or slovaks playing in the SM-liiga, now there are plenty of good EHT-level swedes and a line-full of guys that could play for Slovakia in the World Championships (Juraj Mikus is a lock, Kristian Kudroc probably a lock, Tomas Zaborsky would be a lock without the surgery, Josef Stumpel and Richard Lintner might both get a call if they want to participate, Milan Kytnar has been in the talks...) Also the prospect pool is better than it has been for a decade (Granlunds, Pulkkinen, Vatanen, Armia, Barkov, Salomäki..).

Another notable fact is that the player-movement between SEL and SM-liiga has been towards SM-liiga for a couple of years now. Ville Viitaluoma was the only (!!) player going from SM-liiga to SEL, while more than 20 finnish and foreign players went the other direction (from SEL to SM-liiga).

I'd personally still but SEL and SM-liiga in the same category when it comes to talent level as of right now, but if this development continues it shouldn't take all that long before we start considering SM-liiga a step ahead of the SEL.

BTW: the rankings posted above are terrible. Ozo's ranking gets a special mention. Cze Extraliga and the Austrian Erste bank liga equal? Danish league not better than the leagues in UK and France? The Slovakian league worse than ECHL / France / Italy / UK / Denmark/ Kazakhstan?

Ask our Slovak friend, Vorky about the level of Slovak league, he'll put all of those leagues + Russian junior league ahead of Slovak league.

Mikus as an example of the improving level of SM-Liga. lol And then most of the players you mentioned won't be playing in Finland next year for one reason or another.

torero 02-19-2012 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozo (Post 44421383)
NHL
KHL
AHL / SEL / Swiss NLA
DEL / Finns SML
Czech EL / Austria
ECHL / France / Italy / UK / Denmark/ Kazakhstan
Slovakia

I would definitely place AHL another step down, I am higly surprised by the finish league and Kazakhstan shouldn't be underestimated ... they are far from the world and nobody knows them ...but they are an ex Russia country and have a team in KHL ... i am convinced they deserve better
therefore my ranking would look like :

NHL
KHL
SEL / Swiss NLA / Finns SML
AHL/DEL
Czech EL / Austria / Kazakhstan
ECHL / France / Italy / UK / Denmark / Slovakia

Eventually i would move Slovakia up by 1 notch ... but it is very intuitively (can't imagine them being the level of France or Italy. therefore i write about it ... i don't really change it on the paper)

Krotak 02-19-2012 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozo (Post 44421383)
NHL
KHL
AHL / SEL / Swiss NLA
DEL / Finns SML
Czech EL / Austria
ECHL / France / Italy / UK / Denmark/ Kazakhstan
Slovakia

Are kidding me? :laugh:

Slovak Extraliga decreased in the period 2000-2007. Since then it has improved a little bit. The league is far more young and interesting nowadays than around the year 2007.
Slovan Bratislava and HC Košice are teams on the level of Czech Extraliga. HK36 Skalica and HK ŠKP Poprad are just a little bit weaker this season. The next is Dukla Trenčín. Their system still develop some young talented players. Rest of the teams are almost on the level you wrote.

My ranking would be something like this:

NHL
KHL
SEL / AHL
NLA / SM Liiga / Czech Extraliga
DEL
Slovak Extraliga / EBEL
VHL / Allsvenskan
ECHL / Denmark / Belarus
France / Italy / UK / Kazakhstan...

ozo 02-19-2012 04:21 PM

Nice list, Krotak. Of course you have to take my list with a pinch (a boatload actually :D ) of salt, simply because I haven't seen a single game from most of these leagues. I'm judging purely from transfer point of way, what players go where, what kinda of success they have etc.

Where would you put Belarussian league?

Krotak 02-19-2012 04:31 PM

I guess Belarussian league is probably on the level of league in Denmark.

torero 02-19-2012 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krotak (Post 44453377)
Are kidding me? :laugh:

Slovak Extraliga decreased in the period 2000-2007. Since then it has improved a little bit. The league is far more young and interesting nowadays than around the year 2007.
Slovan Bratislava and HC Košice are teams on the level of Czech Extraliga. HK36 Skalica and HK ŠKP Poprad are just a little bit weaker this season. The next is Dukla Trenčín. Their system still develop some young talented players. Rest of the teams are almost on the level you wrote.

My ranking would be something like this:

NHL
KHL
SEL / AHL
NLA / SM Liiga / Czech Extraliga
DEL
Slovak Extraliga / EBEL
VHL / Allsvenskan
ECHL / Denmark / Belarus
France / Italy / UK / Kazakhstan...

I have little precise idea in fact about many ... yet NLA > AHL !
without a shadow of a doubt !

Ro Herregraven 02-20-2012 04:19 AM

In 2008, the IIHF published a European League ranking to be used for seeding for the now-defunct Champions Hockey League.

Apparently, this ranking was based on judging the strength of the best club teams in each league, as well as the overall strength of leagues (sportive parity and depth, infrastructure, economic stability, market dimension etc.). The sportive criteria that had been taken into consideration were primarily the results in the European Champions Cup (2005-2008) and the last three years’ participation in the Continental Cup.

The 2008 IIHF League Ranking for CHL seeding.

1. Russia
2. Finland
3. Czech Republic
4. Sweden
5. Slovakia
6. Switzerland
7. Germany
8. Belarus
9. Latvia
10. Denmark
11. Austria
12. Kazakhstan
13. Norway
14. France
15. Slovenia
16. Italy
17. Hungary
18. Poland
19. Netherlands
20. Ukraine
21. Great Britain
22. Romania
23. Lithuania
24. Croatia
25. Serbia
26. Estonia
27. Bulgaria
28. Spain
29. Turkey
30. Israel

Now, one can make many arguments against the order displayed above (for instance, it baffles me to see us Dutchies ranked above Ukraine and Great-Britain. Even though the EIHL is highly overrated, they shouldn't be ranked THAT low).

Then again, that was 2008, and it's 2012 now. I'd say that the Swiss NLA is definitely the top European league behind the KHL. After that, ranking becomes more difficult. I'd say that Sweden & Finland round out the top 4. There has been a serious talent drain from both the Czech & Slovak leagues, so I wouldn't rank the Extraligas that high anymore.

Latvia shouldn't be ranked that high either. They have great talent and a great team with Dynamo Riga, but their own domestic league isn't of that high a standard.

Same goes for Denmark. Since a lot of the teams ran into financial troubles a few years ago, the league is rebuilding, but hasn't reached the same level yet.

If one goes further down the list: Serbia doens't even HAVE a domestic league anymore, so they shouldn't even be on this list. They do have one decent team (Partizan Belgrado) playing in the Slovenian league.

All this being said, we still haven't added the North-America minor pro leagues into this mix. As well as some second tier leagues (Allsvenskan, Mestis, VHL, 2. Bundesliga, etc.) that would easily rank within the top 20. And we mustn't forget the Asian Hockey League either. Those teams operate with budgets that many European teams can only dream about.

cutchemist42 02-24-2012 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ro Herregraven (Post 44491057)
In 2008, the IIHF published a European League ranking to be used for seeding for the now-defunct Champions Hockey League.

Apparently, this ranking was based on judging the strength of the best club teams in each league, as well as the overall strength of leagues (sportive parity and depth, infrastructure, economic stability, market dimension etc.). The sportive criteria that had been taken into consideration were primarily the results in the European Champions Cup (2005-2008) and the last three years’ participation in the Continental Cup.

The 2008 IIHF League Ranking for CHL seeding.

1. Russia
2. Finland
3. Czech Republic
4. Sweden
5. Slovakia
6. Switzerland
7. Germany
8. Belarus
9. Latvia
10. Denmark
11. Austria
12. Kazakhstan
13. Norway
14. France
15. Slovenia
16. Italy
17. Hungary
18. Poland
19. Netherlands
20. Ukraine
21. Great Britain
22. Romania
23. Lithuania
24. Croatia
25. Serbia
26. Estonia
27. Bulgaria
28. Spain
29. Turkey
30. Israel

Now, one can make many arguments against the order displayed above (for instance, it baffles me to see us Dutchies ranked above Ukraine and Great-Britain. Even though the EIHL is highly overrated, they shouldn't be ranked THAT low).

Then again, that was 2008, and it's 2012 now. I'd say that the Swiss NLA is definitely the top European league behind the KHL. After that, ranking becomes more difficult. I'd say that Sweden & Finland round out the top 4. There has been a serious talent drain from both the Czech & Slovak leagues, so I wouldn't rank the Extraligas that high anymore.

Latvia shouldn't be ranked that high either. They have great talent and a great team with Dynamo Riga, but their own domestic league isn't of that high a standard.

Same goes for Denmark. Since a lot of the teams ran into financial troubles a few years ago, the league is rebuilding, but hasn't reached the same level yet.

If one goes further down the list: Serbia doens't even HAVE a domestic league anymore, so they shouldn't even be on this list. They do have one decent team (Partizan Belgrado) playing in the Slovenian league.

All this being said, we still haven't added the North-America minor pro leagues into this mix. As well as some second tier leagues (Allsvenskan, Mestis, VHL, 2. Bundesliga, etc.) that would easily rank within the top 20. And we mustn't forget the Asian Hockey League either. Those teams operate with budgets that many European teams can only dream about.

Also, when it comes to Croatia, Zagreb is like Kazakhstan where the top team plays in a whole different league involving better competition. Croatia as a whole is low though.

TheFatOne 02-26-2012 06:37 PM

NHL
KHL
SEL/AHL
DEL/Swiss NLA / Finns SML
Czech EL / Austria / Slovakia
ECHL / France / Italy / UK / Denmark / Norway

Jonimaus 02-26-2012 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by landskronala (Post 45001713)
NHL
KHL
SEL/AHL
DEL/Swiss NLA / Finns SML
Czech EL / Austria / Slovakia
ECHL / France / Italy / UK / Denmark / Norway

There is no way the DEL is as good as Finnish leage. If people refuse to put them together with SEL, at least make them their own row.

Belenos 02-27-2012 02:18 AM

NHL
KHL
SEL / Swiss NLA
Finns SML / AHL
DEL / Czech EL / / Slovakia
Austria / Kazakhstan / Norway / Denmark

LOFIN 02-27-2012 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belenos (Post 45028339)
NHL
KHL
SEL / Swiss NLA
Finns SML / AHL
DEL / Czech EL / / Slovakia
Austria / Kazakhstan / Norway / Denmark

I'd swap SM-liiga and the NLA, or put them on par slightly bellow SEL.

cheerupmurray 02-27-2012 06:19 PM

VHL and Alsvenskan should be in there somewhere. I don't know much about VHL, but I imagine it should be a reay good league. Alsvenskan is excellent for a second tier league, clearly better than the league in Norway or Denmark at least. Judging by their stats in Allsvenskan this season for the players that played their previous season in the Austrian league, Allsvenskan is also clearly superior to that league. I don't think DEL is so much better either (probably a bitbetter though).

Johnny8242 02-28-2012 12:00 AM

ECHL Should be higher on some of these list. Yeah some have higher end players but depth wise ECHL is a lot deeper.

cheerupmurray 02-28-2012 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny8242 (Post 45146883)
ECHL Should be higher on some of these list. Yeah some have higher end players but depth wise ECHL is a lot deeper.

ECHL have good goalies, but besides that I don't think it ranks high at all. Theres just so many other leagues that players will chose to make money rather than playing in ECHL. My guess is that it ranks pretty low among the words leagues.

Hockeyfrilla 02-28-2012 06:05 AM

delete

Mathradio 02-28-2012 11:50 AM

NHL
KHL
Elitserien/SM-liiga
Swiss NLA/AHL
DEL/Czech EL/VHL/Allsvenskan
Austria/Slovakia/Mestis
ECHL / France / Italy / UK / Denmark / Norway

alko 02-29-2012 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozo (Post 44425509)
Ask our Slovak friend, Vorky about the level of Slovak league, he'll put all of those leagues + Russian junior league ahead of Slovak league.

Mikus as an example of the improving level of SM-Liga. lol And then most of the players you mentioned won't be playing in Finland next year for one reason or another.

But not to forget, that the list of Vorky. He doesnt represent all of us, other Slovak members. :shakehead
We will putt Slovak league a little bit higher.

Latex* 03-01-2012 10:20 AM

Lol at all eastern Europeans ranking SM-Liiga so low.

Jonimaus 03-01-2012 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LatexiKledjut (Post 45305037)
Lol at all eastern Europeans ranking SM-Liiga so low.

I know, I don't get it. I'd rank them with SEL or just barely below. Ranking them with DEL is just wrong.


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