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-   -   Without JJ, will The Kings be BETTER defensively? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1116833)

triplcrown 02-24-2012 02:10 PM

Without JJ, will The Kings be BETTER defensively?
 
Now that he's traded, it will be interesting to see 2 things:

1----If the departure of "Mr. Infinite Minus" actually helps us a bit defensively, OR,
if the loss of JJ's physical play, defensive play and puck-movement has the effect of
hurting us in the long run.

2----If JJ's +/- starts on a long road "UP" after the trade to a new team,
and maybe even continues.
Or not.

Will JJ's critics be validated and justified?
Or will JJ's critics be shamed by his performance in Columbus?

We shall see.
:sarcasm:

Tadite 02-24-2012 02:12 PM

According to this we will be:

http://hockeyanalysis.com/2012/02/23...-jack-johnson/

livingminimal 02-24-2012 02:15 PM

You know what else helps on defense?
Puck Possession.

You know what else matters in winning games?
Scoring goals.

You know who else is on the ice besides the two d-men and a goalie?
Three forwards, now with more skill!

Jeff Carter is not a puck possession player, HOWEVER, he is infinitely faster than anyone else in the Kings t6, has a better release, and is now the teams best goal scorer. Period.

If I concede that the Kings could potentially (though, not even remotely close to likely) give up an extra .15 goals a game, would you concede that Jeff Carter could bring .4 more goals per game through his own scoring plus making players better around him?

The player swap was a no brainer. That statistical difference was worth a 1st rounder

Snotbubbles 02-24-2012 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingminimal (Post 44810747)
You know what else helps on defense?
Puck Possession.

You know what else matters in winning games?
Scoring goals.

You know who else is on the ice besides the two d-men and a goalie?
Three forwards, now with more skill!

Jeff Carter is not a puck possession player, HOWEVER, he is infinitely faster than anyone else in the Kings t6, has a better release, and is now the teams best goal scorer. Period.

If I concede that the Kings could potentially (though, not even remotely close to likely) give up an extra .15 goals a game, would you concede that Jeff Carter could bring .4 more goals per game through his own scoring plus making players better around him?

The player swap was a no brainer. That statistical difference was worth a 1st rounder

I think you guys are over-estimating Jeff Carter. He really isn't the type of forward to make the players around him better. He needs the puck on his stick. He scores a lot of goals because he takes a ton of shots and has one of the most wicked wristers I've seen. His slap shot isn't bad either, but he rarely ever takes one.

He's frustrating to watch because he does the same move over and over. You'll get used to it. He'll carry the puck up the ice, go down the right side and fire a wrister from the side boards, 90% of the time he'll miss the net, the puck will travel around the boards and the other team will break out on an odd man rush.

WhatTheFox 02-24-2012 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snotbubbles (Post 44812079)
I think you guys are over-estimating Jeff Carter. He really isn't the type of forward to make the players around him better. He needs the puck on his stick. He scores a lot of goals because he takes a ton of shots and has one of the most wicked wristers I've seen. His slap shot isn't bad either, but he rarely ever takes one.

He's frustrating to watch because he does the same move over and over. You'll get used to it. He'll carry the puck up the ice, go down the right side and fire a wrister from the side boards, 90% of the time he'll miss the net, the puck will travel around the boards and the other team will break out on an odd man rush.

Not disagreeing since I haven't seen Carter play much, but from all the videos I've seen, he seems to come down the left side and fire a wrister from the side boards moreso than the right.

I mentioned that because someone posted that Carter is very strong on the left, but on the right he has no clue what he's doing.

Shellz 02-24-2012 02:43 PM

I highly doubt it.

livingminimal 02-24-2012 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snotbubbles (Post 44812079)
I think you guys are over-estimating Jeff Carter. He really isn't the type of forward to make the players around him better. He needs the puck on his stick. He scores a lot of goals because he takes a ton of shots and has one of the most wicked wristers I've seen. His slap shot isn't bad either, but he rarely ever takes one.

He's frustrating to watch because he does the same move over and over. You'll get used to it. He'll carry the puck up the ice, go down the right side and fire a wrister from the side boards, 90% of the time he'll miss the net, the puck will travel around the boards and the other team will break out on an odd man rush.


Look, guy, I don't want to pull the "I've been playing hockey 25 years" card or some ****, but believe me, when you are a better, more talented offensive player, then whatever carpark post was previously in your place, you make the players around you better by default. Call it bleed effect, whatever. Teams will now focus on Jeff Carter. This makes Mike Richards more available. Or DB, or whomever. It's science.

Also, he can do the same move every damn time if he keeps averaging his career GPG. he can be cooking pancakes with penner on the bench. I don't care. keep potting it.

Quattro 02-24-2012 02:51 PM

of course it makes us worse - you don't subtract a top D and get better. The only question is if the addition of Carter to the forward corps is a net positive.

kingsfan28 02-24-2012 04:01 PM

It will hurt us.Regardless of what you think about Johnson and his defensive play[minus -whatever], we're losing a good, tough puck moving defenseman with playoff experience.

savemefromtears 02-24-2012 04:33 PM

@Snotbubbles - Pay attention to the retort you received.

Nex06 02-24-2012 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snotbubbles (Post 44812079)
I think you guys are over-estimating Jeff Carter. He really isn't the type of forward to make the players around him better. He needs the puck on his stick. He scores a lot of goals because he takes a ton of shots and has one of the most wicked wristers I've seen. His slap shot isn't bad either, but he rarely ever takes one.

He's frustrating to watch because he does the same move over and over. You'll get used to it. He'll carry the puck up the ice, go down the right side and fire a wrister from the side boards, 90% of the time he'll miss the net, the puck will travel around the boards and the other team will break out on an odd man rush.

That sounds perfect for Kopitar's line and I'm not even joking. I think I'm changing my mind about Carter's goal total - if he plays with Kopitar.

hockeyontarioeast 02-24-2012 05:55 PM

The fact that people still think that JJ isn't awful defensively despite being dead last in +- 4 years in a row boggles my mind.

Telos 02-24-2012 06:52 PM

EV GF EV GA EV +/- EV GF/GA Ratio
Doughty without JMFJ +61 -44 +17 0.581
Doughty with JMFJ +18 -19 -1 0.486


Mitchell without JMFJ +44 -39 +5 0.530
Mitchell with JMFJ +3 -9 -6 0.250


Scuderi without JMFJ +32 -27 +5 0.542
Scuderi with JMFJ +22 -29 -7 0.431


Greene without JMFJ +29 -28 +1 0.509
Greene with JMFJ +5 -9 -4 0.357


Martinez without JMFJ +33 -25 +8 0.569
Martinez with JMFJ +4 -2 +2 0.667


Drewiske without JMFJ +13 -15 -2 0.464
Drewiske with JMFJ +2 -2 0 0.500


Harrold without JMFJ +8 -4 +4 0.667
Harrold with JMFJ +1 -2 -1 0.333

backhander 02-24-2012 06:56 PM

let's just score goals consistently and defense won't matter as much

RAZZIE King 02-24-2012 07:00 PM

I voted more defensive...but should note SLIGHTLY better...not drastically better...

BigBrown 02-24-2012 09:05 PM

I think it's a wash defensively, at least this season. Voynov will have some groving pains too, hopefully we can be patient with him. He's definitely a smaller guy than Johnson so big, cycling teams could take advantage of that where JJ could pin those guys to the boards. Anyway, I like Voynov way better than I did Johnson at his age.

funky 02-25-2012 12:28 AM

we lose a below average defensive defenseman, and replace him with another defenceman still learning and probably equal.

what we gain is an above average defensive forward.

in the end I think we gained defensively.

Willard 02-25-2012 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingsfan28 (Post 44818363)
It will hurt us.Regardless of what you think about Johnson and his defensive play[minus -whatever], we're losing a good, tough puck moving defenseman with playoff experience.

His playoff experience featured having his lunch eaten repeatedly by the offenses of the Canucks and the Sharks. And I mean repeatedly. I like JJ by the way, so this is painful to admit.

ScoreZeGoals 02-25-2012 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willard (Post 44858931)
His playoff experience featured having his lunch eaten repeatedly by the offenses of the Canucks and the Sharks. And I mean repeatedly. I like JJ by the way, so this is painful to admit.

Exactly, the Sharks board were saying they were sad to see JJ go last night

Face Wash 02-25-2012 01:16 AM

Like most of DL's trades, the value is good, but it will have little or no affect because of the team concept Carter is coming to. He probably will be swallowed up by the abyss that is the LA Kings offense.

I can't imagine the Kings will be BETTER defensively, they're better than almost any team and I don't think it can get much better statistically.

Willard 02-25-2012 12:28 PM

Many Kings fans seem gloomy about losing JJ not because they are really stopping to examine the still-significant gaps in his defensive game, but because they admire him as a person. I get that -- but take emotions out of it and look at the trade with a practical eye. This trade is an extremely obvious net gain for the Kings, and the Kings defense without Johnson will truly be just fine.

Butch 19 02-25-2012 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snotbubbles (Post 44812079)
I think you guys are over-estimating Jeff Carter. He really isn't the type of forward to make the players around him better. He needs the puck on his stick. He scores a lot of goals because he takes a ton of shots and has one of the most wicked wristers I've seen. His slap shot isn't bad either, but he rarely ever takes one.

He's frustrating to watch because he does the same move over and over. You'll get used to it. He'll carry the puck up the ice, go down the right side and fire a wrister from the side boards, 90% of the time he'll miss the net, the puck will travel around the boards and the other team will break out on an odd man rush.

:laugh: I've been over estimating every Kings player since I watched my first game many years ago!

Obviously, this team needs offense, and I imagine that Carter can help generate more if it than JJ.

Hopefully simple as that. * need fingers crossed smilie * or else :baghead: can't be too far behind.

Knight of the Realm 02-25-2012 06:18 PM

I think VV is being undervalued here. Kid is good, not as physical as JJ but he can move the puck. Hoping he slots in on the first PP unit as well.

Mr Irreverent 02-25-2012 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snotbubbles (Post 44812079)
I think you guys are over-estimating Jeff Carter. He really isn't the type of forward to make the players around him better. He needs the puck on his stick. He scores a lot of goals because he takes a ton of shots and has one of the most wicked wristers I've seen. His slap shot isn't bad either, but he rarely ever takes one.

He's frustrating to watch because he does the same move over and over. You'll get used to it. He'll carry the puck up the ice, go down the right side and fire a wrister from the side boards, 90% of the time he'll miss the net, the puck will travel around the boards and the other team will break out on an odd man rush.

Oh sweet, another Dustin Brown! :sarcasm:

The Tikkanen 02-25-2012 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telos (Post 44831021)
EV GF EV GA EV +/- EV GF/GA Ratio
Doughty without JMFJ +61 -44 +17 0.581
Doughty with JMFJ +18 -19 -1 0.486


Mitchell without JMFJ +44 -39 +5 0.530
Mitchell with JMFJ +3 -9 -6 0.250


Scuderi without JMFJ +32 -27 +5 0.542
Scuderi with JMFJ +22 -29 -7 0.431


Greene without JMFJ +29 -28 +1 0.509
Greene with JMFJ +5 -9 -4 0.357


Martinez without JMFJ +33 -25 +8 0.569
Martinez with JMFJ +4 -2 +2 0.667


Drewiske without JMFJ +13 -15 -2 0.464
Drewiske with JMFJ +2 -2 0 0.500


Harrold without JMFJ +8 -4 +4 0.667
Harrold with JMFJ +1 -2 -1 0.333

No more questions your honor. JJ has gotten much better defensively each season with the Kings but he has a low hockey IQ and doesn't see the ice well or plays as they are developing-he reacts after the fact. I'd rather have Voynov and Carter than Jack Johnson.


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