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-   -   Havlat bolts to Russia for 1.2 Mil (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=112897)

X0ssbar 11-10-2004 09:47 AM

Havlat bolts to Russia for 1.2 Mil
 
"The Sun has learned that the Senators winger is the latest NHLer to be wooed to Russia for big money after sources say he agreed to a $1.2-million US contract with Moscow Dynamo yesterday."

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL...10/708618.html

Okay - Havlat's move isn't a surprise as many stars have been hitting it big with Russian clubs in the past couple of weeks.

My question is this - if these players - especially Eurpean players - can make comparable salaries overseas, who is to say these playes will ever return to the NHL - why should they?

From an NHL persepctive, they will take a substantial hit and loose out on valuable talent to fill out all 30 teams but they will have their salary cap and cost certainty which is their #1 objective at this point.

But I think Goodenow and his posse of agents will take the bigger hit in terms of commission. Right now they are fighting to keep their current share of the pie but if some of these star players don't return they stand to loose out some serious benjamins regardless of whether or not a salary cap is in place.

Still think its a good idea for the NHLPA to have let these guys continue to play overseas for the sake of staying shape?

vanlady 11-10-2004 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top Shelf
"The Sun has learned that the Senators winger is the latest NHLer to be wooed to Russia for big money after sources say he agreed to a $1.2-million US contract with Moscow Dynamo yesterday."

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL...10/708618.html

Okay - Havlat's move isn't a surprise as many stars have been hitting it big with Russian clubs in the past couple of weeks.

My question is this - if these players - especially Eurpean players - can make comparable salaries overseas, who is to say these playes will ever return to the NHL - why should they?

From an NHL persepctive, they will take a substantial hit and loose out on valuable talent to fill out all 30 teams but they will have their salary cap and cost certainty which is their #1 objective at this point.

But I think Goodenow and his posse of agents will take the bigger hit in terms of commission. Right now they are fighting to keep their current share of the pie but if some of these star players don't return they stand to loose out some serious benjamins regardless of whether or not a salary cap is in place.

Still think its a good idea for the NHLPA to have let these guys continue to play overseas for the sake of staying shape?

Someone can correct me it I am wrong, but the agents will still get cuts of players european contracts, even if they stay in europe. There are agents in europe but for the most part the strong majority of agents that control hockey are here in North America

DuklaNation 11-10-2004 09:57 AM

This is a very good issue. Although still a mess, the Russian economy could improve dramatically over the next 10 years (if regulatory situation ever improves). Who's to say they wouldnt be able to start their own league? If they are paying $1M+ salaries now, the NHL could have some competition. This is actually bad for both sides.

discostu 11-10-2004 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanlady
Someone can correct me it I am wrong, but the agents will still get cuts of players european contracts, even if they stay in europe. There are agents in europe but for the most part the strong majority of agents that control hockey are here in North America

That will change in time if this shift continues. If there is sufficient money to be made in these leagues, you'll see local agents rise in prominence over there.

Has anyone been following what attendance figures have been like this year for all of these European teams. If they have been capitalizing heavily on this influx of talent, then there will be a strong motivation to retain these players once the lockout is over.

On the other hand, if attendance is remaining relatively stable, I imagine most players will return to the NHL, where, even with a revamped CBA, their earning power will be higher.

ceber 11-10-2004 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuklaNation
If they are paying $1M+ salaries now, the NHL could have some competition. This is actually bad for both sides.

Why is this competetion bad?

Siberian 11-10-2004 10:50 AM

The problem with the Russian leaugue is that it is not business! Russian hockey teams are mainly sponsored by Russian tycoons who consider them their toys. Just make a quick calculation - on average there is about 4500 seats in hockey arena in Russia. The tickets are about 5 dollars. there is 30 home games a season. So they will have only $675,000 in sold tickets. Imagine how many seasons Ak Bars with its 4000 people arena (they are building a new one though) will have to play to pay off Kovalchuk's 3 mill salary. If the Russian league was a free market then the average player probably would have been making 20,000 a year.

vanlady 11-10-2004 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by discostu
That will change in time if this shift continues. If there is sufficient money to be made in these leagues, you'll see local agents rise in prominence over there.

Has anyone been following what attendance figures have been like this year for all of these European teams. If they have been capitalizing heavily on this influx of talent, then there will be a strong motivation to retain these players once the lockout is over.

On the other hand, if attendance is remaining relatively stable, I imagine most players will return to the NHL, where, even with a revamped CBA, their earning power will be higher.


I know that there are several articles on the sky rocketing attendance in the Czech leagues, don't know about the others.

vanlady 11-10-2004 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian
The problem with the Russian leaugue is that it is not business! Russian hockey teams are mainly sponsored by Russian tycoons who consider them their toys. Just make a quick calculation - on average there is about 4500 seats in hockey arena in Russia. The tickets are about 5 dollars. there is 30 home games a season. So they will have only $675,000 in sold tickets. Imagine how many seasons Ak Bars with its 4000 people arena (they are building a new one though) will have to play to pay off Kovalchuk's 3 mill salary. If the Russian league was a free market then the average player probably would have been making 20,000 a year.

The Russians treat their hockey like the Brits treat soccer. The oil barons and mobsters will spend what ever it takes to win. The see hockey teams on the same level as race horses, a status symbol. Ak Bars for example has an important anniversary comming up and the owner has guarenteed a Russian Elite League winner to the city, as an anniversary gift.

John Flyers Fan 11-10-2004 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top Shelf
But I think Goodenow and his posse of agents will take the bigger hit in terms of commission. Right now they are fighting to keep their current share of the pie but if some of these star players don't return they stand to loose out some serious benjamins regardless of whether or not a salary cap is in place.

Disagree, if a hard cap or NBA style cap is instituted agents could lose alot more money.

For example the NBA has restrictions on what players can be paid. A guy like an Allen iverson has no need for an agent to negotiate his salary.

Hire a lawyer at $500 an hour to read through the contract, but Iverson is getting his 6-year deal for $90 million with or without an agnet.

Iverson might pay that lawyer $10,000 to help him with the contract. An agent making 2% would take $1.8 MILLION.

vanlady 11-10-2004 11:36 AM

Here is another twist to consider. If the lockout goes a full year, most of the Canucks line up will not have contracts. If these European leagues pay high paychecks and the players a playing in Europe, does the Olympic ban apply to them? Remember this is a lockout not a strike so unless there is something in the new CBA to grandfather contracts these players will all become free agents and free to play in European teams. So will European elite leagues pay huge sums to keep these guys to play in the Olympics?

Buya89 11-10-2004 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian
The problem with the Russian leaugue is that it is not business! Russian hockey teams are mainly sponsored by Russian tycoons who consider them their toys. Just make a quick calculation - on average there is about 4500 seats in hockey arena in Russia. The tickets are about 5 dollars. there is 30 home games a season. So they will have only $675,000 in sold tickets. Imagine how many seasons Ak Bars with its 4000 people arena (they are building a new one though) will have to play to pay off Kovalchuk's 3 mill salary. If the Russian league was a free market then the average player probably would have been making 20,000 a year.

oh yeah and NYR is business?
look in last 7 years....

copperandblue 11-10-2004 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
For example the NBA has restrictions on what players can be paid. A guy like an Allen iverson has no need for an agent to negotiate his salary.

And yet he still employs Leon Rose as his agent....


Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Iverson might pay that lawyer $10,000 to help him with the contract. An agent making 2% would take $1.8 MILLION.

I often wondered what's an agent's commission, is this accurate?

I gotta tell you, I would not be dissappointed one bit if agents went the way of the dodo.

Think about it, by eliminating the 2 percent commission the the league would be 26 mil closer to the black.....

vanlady 11-10-2004 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copperandblue
And yet he still employs Leon Rose as his agent....




I often wondered what's an agent's commission, is this accurate?

I gotta tell you, I would not be dissappointed one bit if agents went the way of the dodo.

Think about it, by eliminating the 2 percent commission the the league would be 260 mil closer to the black.....

2 percent? some agents in the NHL take as much as 10%

John Flyers Fan 11-10-2004 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copperandblue
And yet he still employs Leon Rose as his agent....

I often wondered what's an agent's commission, is this accurate?

I gotta tell you, I would not be dissappointed one bit if agents went the way of the dodo.

Think about it, by eliminating the 2 percent commission the the league would be 260 mil closer to the black.....

A player like Iverson would still have an agent ...... endorsements.

The 2% comission does not get paid by the NHL, it comes out of the players pockets. I'm also not sure what the exact comission agents get. I also believe that they get different percentages depending upon if it's a players contract, endorsement deals etc. etc.

ceber 11-10-2004 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanlady
2 percent? some agents in the NHL take as much as 10%

Need proof on that one. Last I heard, a high rate in the NHL is 4%.

copperandblue 11-10-2004 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
The 2% comission does not get paid by the NHL, it comes out of the players pockets.

I understand that, my rational (I know it doesn't strictly translate but I was just making a point) is that, if a 1 mil contract only sees 880K (based on the 2%) because of the agents comission and the player is happy with the 880k - then without a comission he could get the same amount and the team would be 20k better off.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ceber
Last I heard, a high rate in the NHL is 4%.

That is even better, my whole point is that right now (@ 4%) the league is spending 52 mil a year on agents that the fans neither want to see nor think very highly of....

chara 11-10-2004 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top Shelf
"The Sun has learned that the Senators winger is the latest NHLer to be wooed to Russia for big money after sources say he agreed to a $1.2-million US contract with Moscow Dynamo yesterday."

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL...10/708618.html

Okay - Havlat's move isn't a surprise as many stars have been hitting it big with Russian clubs in the past couple of weeks.

My question is this - if these players - especially Eurpean players - can make comparable salaries overseas, who is to say these playes will ever return to the NHL - why should they?

From an NHL persepctive, they will take a substantial hit and loose out on valuable talent to fill out all 30 teams but they will have their salary cap and cost certainty which is their #1 objective at this point.

But I think Goodenow and his posse of agents will take the bigger hit in terms of commission. Right now they are fighting to keep their current share of the pie but if some of these star players don't return they stand to loose out some serious benjamins regardless of whether or not a salary cap is in place.

Still think its a good idea for the NHLPA to have let these guys continue to play overseas for the sake of staying shape?


Guys can play whatever they want. As a Sens fan, I would miss the explosive Havlat who will emerge into one of the elite players in the NHL. If Havlat chose not to return, so be it.

However, money is not the only motivating factor for players. Guys like Havlat know that to be the best, you have to play with and against the best. Guys like Jagr and Forsberg have already done that so Europe is a viable option for them to finish up their careers.

bling 11-10-2004 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by discostu
Has anyone been following what attendance figures have been like this year for all of these European teams. If they have been capitalizing heavily on this influx of talent, then there will be a strong motivation to retain these players once the lockout is over.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New...708717-cp.html
According to this article Sweden has seen a huge rise in attendance since the locked out Nhler's have been playing.

Also note that the whining and sniveling, (ala Corey Hirsch) is not happening in the Swedish leagues.

Don Draper 11-10-2004 01:40 PM

although Havlats 1.2 is somewhat comparable to his 2.3 he is to get this season, it doesnt exactly work that way. Havlat may only be getting 2.3, but that is extremely high for his age bracket, where as the 1.2 he is getting in russia would not be due to his age, it would be due to his talent. What i am saying is that in 4 years, he could be make 6mill+, where as in russia, he would still be making the 1.2. The players have to work through their early contracts in the NHL to get the big money, where as right now in europe, they can sign for as much as they want. 1.2 is not as high as it might seem.

About the agents and their percentage: Its widely known that NBA players on their rookie contracts are much better off hiring a lawyer to get the first deal done to save themselves a ton of money. As soon as that contract is signed though, they will get themselves an agent, for endorsements, and connections throughout the league for when that first contract runs out. It would be silly to be without an agent going into your second contract unless you were clearly a max player. If not, its poor judgement, and you will miss out on alot in the long run.

PecaFan 11-10-2004 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceber
Need proof on that one. Last I heard, a high rate in the NHL is 4%.

Brian Burke cited 3% as standard in an interview last week. He was talking about this very thing, most players are stupid to have an agent full time. A player gets a standard $6 million qualifying offer, and hands over $180 grand to an agent who did literally nothing.

This Russian thing is great for the couple of dozen players who can actually cash in. Even then, they're still not going to be making anything close to what they can in the NHL. Even in a capped league.

But for most of the PA it's irrelevant.

Tom_Benjamin 11-10-2004 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PecaFan
Brian Burke cited 3% as standard in an interview last week. He was talking about this very thing, most players are stupid to have an agent full time. A player gets a standard $6 million qualifying offer, and hands over $180 grand to an agent who did literally nothing.

It is the standard percentage although most agents take less and less as the player salary goes up. The player had to decide to accept the qualifying offer in this case. He also had the option of going to arbitration or even holding out. Has the player the clout to get the security of a long term deal?

Quote:

This Russian thing is great for the couple of dozen players who can actually cash in. Even then, they're still not going to be making anything close to what they can in the NHL. Even in a capped league.
Are you sure? An incredible amount of oil money is flowing into Russia these days. If they decide that money is no object, NHL teams won't be able to compete for the young Russians. Even if they do successfully compete for them, what does that do to the salaries of comparables in the NHL?

Tom

me2 11-10-2004 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_Benjamin
Are you sure? An incredible amount of oil money is flowing into Russia these days. If they decide that money is no object, NHL teams won't be able to compete for the young Russians. Even if they do successfully compete for them, what does that do to the salaries of comparables in the NHL?

Tom

All the more reason to have a salary cap then. Stop teams going broke trying to compete with Russians and turning the NHL into some sort of uber-lopsided league.

YellHockey* 11-10-2004 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by me2
All the more reason to have a salary cap then. Stop teams going broke trying to compete with Russians and turning the NHL into some sort of uber-lopsided league.

With a salary cap the NHL risks losing its status as the premiere hockey league in the world. If the Russians stop coming over, who's next? Do the rest of the Europeans stop coming over as well? If so, all of a sudden the NHL's a 30 team league that's lost close to 50% of the world's top talent. If you thought the league was diluted now, wait until then.

Why should the league suffer because the poor teams don't feel they can afford the world's top talent? Why should the Rangers and Maple Leafs not get the opportunity to have all of the world's best players playing in front of their fans? Because fans in Edmonton don't want to pay as much as the fans in the big markets?

me2 11-10-2004 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
With a salary cap the NHL risks losing its status as the premiere hockey league in the world. If the Russians stop coming over, who's next? Do the rest of the Europeans stop coming over as well? If so, all of a sudden the NHL's a 30 team league that's lost close to 50% of the world's top talent. If you thought the league was diluted now, wait until then.


Ottawa GM: What's that? Havlat, Hossa, Redden and Chara got offered between $5-9m/y each from the RSL. They offered Spezza $3. They offered our top prospects between $1.5 and $2.5m + bonuses. I'd better sign some more DeVries and Bondras.

Imagine what would be left of Tampa after it was raided.


Tom is fond of telling us about competitive balance and building through the draft. He'll tell us GMs should use leverage on younger players to control wages.

Well if the Russians start paying NHL wages you can kiss the draft goodbye. No point drafting them if they are off to Russia.

You can kiss competitive balance goodbye. Only the richest 6 or 7 teams will be able to afford top talent, young or old. When NYR offers a 2nd rnder for Hossa (who just got an $8-9m offer in Russia) the Sens better take it cause it all they'll get.

You kiss RFA status goodbye. It any team in Russia for twice the money or one team in the NHL for 1/2. And there is an 80% chance that NHL won't have a chance against the big NHL teams.

A hard cap is the only way to keep things remotely under control if Russia starts throwing around NHL money.

Quote:

Why should the league suffer because the poor teams don't feel they can afford the world's top talent? Why should the Rangers and Maple Leafs not get the opportunity to have all of the world's best players playing in front of their fans? Because fans in Edmonton don't want to pay as much as the fans in the big markets?
Its not just Edmonton, its any team with a payroll less than $50m-60m.

Tom_Benjamin 11-11-2004 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by me2
You can kiss competitive balance goodbye. Only the richest 6 or 7 teams will be able to afford top talent, young or old. When NYR offers a 2nd rnder for Hossa (who just got an $8-9m offer in Russia) the Sens better take it cause it all they'll get.

This shows how badly Bettman has managed this unnecessary confrontation. He is creating international competition for the labour where none existed before.

The European leagues are loving the hockey and surely see ways to increase revenue to pay at least a few stars to stay home. They can increase the number of games for one thing. In Russia, the billionaires are doing it for the same reason billionaires like to do it here, but with a kicker: Russians love hockey and even if a team loses $50 million, it is a cheap way to keep the population happy.

In a way, Bettman is negotiating against himself. The better the deal he gets from the players, the more likely the Europeans will be able to compete for players. I can't imagine the Russians not being willing to top the entry level salary under old CBA for Ovechkin, now they have a taste for it. Or Crosby, for that matter.

In an effort to get a system like the NFL in hockey, he may inadvertently create a system that is most like soccer. And no, I don't think that system will be good for competitive balance. It will be awful, but what's the alternative? We tell Toronto and New York they can't compete for the best talent in the world?

The old CBA was great for competitive balance. That's why I resist change.

Tom


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