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-   -   "Schenn's play is at an all time low" (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1148719)

MarcWagz 03-29-2012 07:53 PM

"Schenn's play is at an all time low"
 
This is what the TSN panel says and they say he should be traded ASAP...

but seriously his play is at an all time low?

he is still our highest +/- defencemen and leads defencemen in hits
he has been playing pretty well since carlyse came along with more minutes

What does he have to do to be worth keeping?

Just because he is young doesn't mean he'll get us a super star in a trade, he is what he is a second pairing d-man with big hits which is something we do need.

TSN says we need all small fast defencemen like gardiner, our forwards are already little blue smurfs we don't need our defence to be too.

vezna* 03-29-2012 07:54 PM

he's off this season for sure but people are acting like he's the first young dman to struggle.

weems 03-29-2012 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcWagz (Post 46947983)
This is what the TSN panel says and they say he should be traded ASAP...

but seriously his play is at an all time low?

he is still our highest +/- defencemen and leads defencemen in hits
he has been playing pretty well since carlyse came along with more minutes

What does he have to do to be worth keeping?

Just because he is young doesn't mean he'll get us a super star in a trade, he is what he is a second pairing d-man with big hits which is something we do need.

TSN says we need all small fast defencemen like gardiner, our forwards are already little blue smurfs we don't need our defence to be too.

They never said that.
Crawford just said this blueline needs to become more mobile and hes 100% correct.

The Podium 03-29-2012 07:57 PM

You do realize they pretty much said "trade him while his value is at its lowest" right? Trading Luke Schenn is one of the LAST things we should be doing. Does anyone else remember the Schenn of last season? The defensively responsible, minute eating, man crushing, Luke Schenn? We are less than a year shy of that Schenn, and Burke knows what he has in him. One off season does not define a career.

JGardiner51 03-29-2012 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisx101 (Post 46948371)
You do realize they pretty much said "trade him while his value is at its lowest" right? Trading Luke Schenn is one of the LAST things we should be doing. Does anyone else remember the Schenn of last season? The defensively responsible, minute eating, man crushing, Luke Schenn? We are less than a year shy of that Schenn, and Burke knows what he has in him. One off season does not define a career.

I would be willing to put money down that schenn will be an absolute beast next year. With Carlyles system in place, he will show us why he was picked 5th overall.

threeGo 03-29-2012 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGardiner51 (Post 46948791)
I would be willing to put money down that schenn will be an absolute beast next year. With Carlyles system in place, he will show us why he was picked 5th overall.

Then we trade him for something good. I'd be up for that.

ponder 03-29-2012 08:03 PM

I think he's been a solid 3rd pairing dman, 5-on-5. Extremely physical and strong, OK hands/vision, but quite turnover/mistake prone, a pretty poor skater, and whether it's his mobility or his positioning, he gets burned a lot on d for a defensive dman. Not someone you'd ever want on your PP, and he's actually been one of our worst PKing dmen too, which is unfortunate for a defensive dman. At the moment, he doesn't offer much value to the team, just some decent 3rd pairing 5-on-5 play. At his peak I'd hope he could become a good 2nd pairing guy, and a good PKer, but that's about the limit of my expectations. "Meh" dman right now, could become a solid dman in the future, never going to be anything close to a star though.

Just watching the game, perfect example of Schenn getting burned on d right there (Wellwood goal). Just some random scrub, and he completely and utterly beats Schenn 1-on-1, this is something which happens more or less all the time with Schenn this year, gets himself a bit out of position, then doesn't have the skating to recover.

Razorwing 03-29-2012 08:05 PM

I doubt Schenn is going anywhere. Schenn-Gardiner = Future.

JGardiner51 03-29-2012 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razorwing (Post 46949401)
I doubt Schenn is going anywhere. Schenn-Gardiner = Future.

That will be our future top pairing. Schenn will get better.

ponder 03-29-2012 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGardiner51 (Post 46949851)
That will be our future top pairing. Schenn will get better.

I can see Gardiner as a top pairing dman one day, but I really, really hope we never have to rely on Schenn to be a top pairing dman for us. If Schenn's on the top pairing, then our defense is really got. Even if he gets a lot better (and I hope he does), it's hard to see him as much more than a good 2nd pairing dman on a good team.

The Podium 03-29-2012 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponder (Post 46949113)
I think he's been a solid 3rd pairing dman, 5-on-5. Extremely physical and strong, OK hands/vision, but quite turnover/mistake prone, a pretty poor skater, and whether it's his mobility or his positioning, he gets burned a lot on d for a defensive dman. Not someone you'd ever want on your PP, and he's actually been one of our worst PKing dmen too, which is unfortunate for a defensive dman. At the moment, he doesn't offer much value to the team, just some decent 3rd pairing 5-on-5 play. At his peak I'd hope he could become a good 2nd pairing guy, and a good PKer, but that's about the limit of my expectations. "Meh" dman right now, could become a solid dman in the future, never going to be anything close to a star though.

Just watching the game, perfect example of Schenn getting burned on d right there (Wellwood goal). Just some random scrub, and he completely and utterly beats Schenn 1-on-1, this is something which happens more or less all the time with Schenn this year, gets himself a bit out of position, then doesn't have the skating to recover.

Lets turn the clock back a bit shall we.

03-30-2011, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponder (Post 32000707)
He'll never become a "legit #1 dman," but he could definitely become a good top pairing dman. He's already excellent defensively, very physical while staying very positionally sound, and while he's nothing special with the puck he's not a liability either (he's clam, makes good outlet passes, and has a good shot from the point, turns it over quite a bit but they're rarely bad turnovers). He's just 21 years old, already fantastic in his own end and a 20 point scorer, it's not unreasonable to think that in his prime he'll eliminate the defensive mistakes he sometimes makes, cut down on the turnovers, and continue to get better and more confident with the puck. In his prime if he's one of the best defensive dmen in the game who can also put up 30 points and lay people out constantly (with solid, though not huge hits), how would that not be a top pairing dman?

As for Schenn being the best dman on the team, he's 2nd best at the moment. Phaneuf started out the season very poorly, lacking confidence and struggling through a couple injuries, but since about mid January or so Phaneuf has been playing great, and definitely looking like the best dman on the Leafs. But Schenn is just 21, and Phaneuf is really good when he's at the top of his game like he has been recently.

People forget what he was and only look at what he is. He is 22, its common for young D to struggle a bit, why not wait until next season to judge his play.

BertCorbeau 03-29-2012 08:14 PM

Said it before, will say it again. IF Schenn works his ass off to regain his lost mobility, he will be a beast as the rest of his game and confidence will rise up.

But that's if he works on his skating, that's the biggest thing holding him back.

leafsfuture 03-29-2012 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BertCorbeau (Post 46950665)
Said it before, will say it again. IF Schenn works his ass off to regain his lost mobility, he will be a beast as the rest of his game and confidence will rise up.

But that's if he works on his skating, that's the biggest thing holding him back.

This.

We have no choice at this point, hes not getting us anything valuable

ponder 03-29-2012 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisx101 (Post 46950265)
Lets turn the clock back a bit shall we.

03-30-2011, 01:07 PM



People forget what he was and only look at what he is. He is 22, its common for young D to struggle a bit, why not wait until next season to judge his play.

Haha, touche, I certainly have soured on him quite a bit. However, when guys are newer to the league there's more uncertainty, the longer they're in the league the better you can read their game. Obviously I could be completely wrong on my current assessment of Schenn, like all fans I'm wrong constantly about how players will perform in the future. With that being said, based on everything I've seen in his career so far, I'd say he's currently a fine bottom pairing dman on a good team, with the upside to become a good 2nd pairing dman on a good team. I no longer see top pairing upside. My main issue is that I no longer think he can become elite defensively, he's insanely beastly in terms of his strength/physicality, but I just don't think he has the skating or smarts to become a prime shutdown guy in his own end.

If you don't update your opinion as you gain more information/insight, you're just being stubborn. It'd be like someone continuing to hold onto Bre-X stock, hoping for huge upside, even once they learned that the whole thing is a scam. I used to be high on Schenn, now I'm "meh" on him. Still think he'll become a fine dman, a 2nd pairing guy, I just no longer see top pairing upside.

The Podium 03-29-2012 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponder (Post 46951571)
Haha, touche, I certainly have soured on him quite a bit. However, when guys are newer to the league there's more uncertainty, the longer they're in the league the better you can read their game. Obviously I could be completely wrong on my current assessment of Schenn, like all fans I'm wrong constantly about how players will perform in the future. With that being said, based on everything I've seen in his career so far, I'd say he's currently a fine bottom pairing dman on a good team, with the upside to become a good 2nd pairing dman on a good team. I no longer see top pairing upside. My main issue is that I no longer think he can become elite defensively, he's insanely beastly in terms of his strength/physicality, but I just don't think he has the skating or smarts to become a prime shutdown guy in his own end.

If you don't update your opinion as you gain more information/insight, you're just being stubborn. It'd be like someone continuing to hold onto Bre-X stock, hoping for huge upside, even once they learned that the whole thing is a scam. I used to be high on Schenn, now I'm "meh" on him. Still think he'll become a fine dman, a 2nd pairing guy, I just no longer see top pairing upside.

Updating your opinion is fine, it is completely dismissing the possibility based on the play of one season. By your logic Kulemin will never be a top 6 forward again or Reimer will never be a decent NHL goalie. Bozak's and Grabovski's rebounds were impossible anomalies, and slumping players will never bounce back.

Schenn's smarts are fine, it his mobility that has taken a hit. He needs to spend a summer working on his skating, similar to JT, and he should be fine coming into next season.

BillyD 03-29-2012 08:28 PM

i actually saw schenn take one off his hands of his stick tonight for about 3 seconds, so thats promising

MarcWagz 03-29-2012 08:34 PM

I may have spoke too soon that may have been his worst night

although every defencemen sucked tonight :laugh:

ponder 03-29-2012 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisx101 (Post 46952625)
Updating your opinion is fine, it is completely dismissing the possibility based on the play of one season. By your logic Kulemin will never be a top 6 forward again or Reimer will never be a decent NHL goalie. Bozak's and Grabovski's rebounds were impossible anomalies, and slumping players will never bounce back.

Schenn's smarts are fine, it his mobility that has taken a hit. He needs to spend a summer working on his skating, similar to JT, and he should be fine coming into next season.

Except those aren't/never were never my opinions. I'm absolutely of the opinion that Kulemin could again be a top 6 forward, because he has all the tools and just seems to lack confidence. As for Reimer, goalies are late bloomers, and it's just his 2nd year in the NHL, I can see him being a decent NHL goalie at some point for sure. I'm also not saying Schenn can't bounce back, I think he will, I think in the future he'll be better than he ever has been before, I just no longer think his upside is quite as high. Legit top pairing dmen on good teams are pretty damn awesome dmen, I can't see Schenn reaching these heights, not with his below average offense, very poor skating, and questionable decision making. Good 2nd pairing dman, fine, but a good top pairing dman is someone who you always want on the ice, in pretty much any situation, and I can no longer see Schenn turning into that kind of guy.

Also, I called Schenn our 2nd best dman at this point last year, but it wasn't exactly stiff competition. We'd traded Beauchemin and Kaberle, hadn't yet dealt for Liles or Franson, and Gardiner was still in college. Schenn was playing better last year, but he at that point in the season he was only competing with guys like Lebda, Komi, Gunnarsson, Aulie and Lashoff for that "2nd best dman on the Leafs" title. The only particularly good dman there was Gunnarsson, and he wasn't having the best year last year.

Finally, I do not think Schenn's mobility has taken a hit, he's always been this slow.

birddog* 03-29-2012 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcWagz (Post 46947983)
This is what the TSN panel says and they say he should be traded ASAP...

but seriously his play is at an all time low?

he is still our highest +/- defencemen and leads defencemen in hits
he has been playing pretty well since carlyse came along with more minutes

What does he have to do to be worth keeping?

Just because he is young doesn't mean he'll get us a super star in a trade, he is what he is a second pairing d-man with big hits which is something we do need.

TSN says we need all small fast defencemen like gardiner, our forwards are already little blue smurfs we don't need our defence to be too.

Aaron Ward said this not the entire panel. and you don't trade an asset at its all-time low. Only in Toronto can a 22 year old dman not get better.

Stephen 03-29-2012 11:19 PM

Beyond Schenn's slow skating, his decision making process is also quite atrocious. He's slow, has no hands and his slow thinking the game. He'll probably peak as a Beauchemin/Gill type defensive defenseman, but by no means a 'beast'. More likely he'll be like a journeyman Luke Richardson and make nice tidy contributions on winning teams needing third pairing defensemen for playoff runs and get flipped every couple of years for 3rd round picks at the deadline.

Penalty Kill Icing* 03-29-2012 11:44 PM

Our players are somehow getting worse with their play each passing moment, and their media skills are getting even worse than their on-ice performances.

Schenn has been brutal lately, but so has been the entire team.

Shimso 03-29-2012 11:53 PM

Schenn was fantastic today. Too bad it was the wrong Schenn.

The Naz 03-30-2012 12:00 AM

I thought Gardiner was ****in brutal today. But I guess he's still shiny and new.

The Legend 03-30-2012 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Naz (Post 46969071)
I thought Gardiner was ****in brutal today. But I guess he's still shiny and new.

Schenn's terrible play on the fifth goal was way worse than anything Jake put out there tonight. Don't trade the guy or whatever, but we all should admit that he just isn't good.

The Naz 03-30-2012 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Legend (Post 46969627)
Schenn's terrible play on the fifth goal was way worse than anything Jake put out there tonight. Don't trade the guy or whatever, but we all should admit that he just isn't good.

I don't want to trade either at all. I think there young and will learn. But I didn't notice Schenn's blunders near as much as Gardiners.


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