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-   -   Plus/Minus (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1155069)

Cin 04-05-2012 03:47 PM

Plus/Minus
 
Why is it a lot of you hate this stat? Serious conversation here.

LatvianTwist 04-05-2012 04:06 PM

Not something the players themselves really control. More just luck, match-ups, and how good your line/D/goalie is.

ReverendAlBundy 04-05-2012 04:40 PM

I think it's a better indication of a players play than most people. There's a reason that a lot of defensive forwards and shut down d have higher +/- than more offensive geared players.

ReverendAlBundy 04-05-2012 04:41 PM

To elaborate on that, it's basically the only stat that shows 'the subtle plays' that typically go unnoticed.

piqued 04-05-2012 04:44 PM

It paints with an overly broad brush. Often times only a handful of players will be involved in either creating a goal or responsible for allowing it. All get rewarded/punished equally. Also, how can a stat that assigns the same importance to empty net goals as regular goals be taken seriously?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hecantscorefromthere (Post 47350331)
I think it's a better indication of a players play than most people. There's a reason that a lot of defensive forwards and shut down d have higher +/- than more offensive geared players.

Radek Dvorak... -15
Michael Ryder... +19

ReverendAlBundy 04-05-2012 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piqued (Post 47350557)
It paints with an overly broad brush. Often times only a handful of players will be involved in either creating a goal or responsible for allowing it. All get rewarded/punished equally. Also, how can a stat that assigns the same importance to empty net goals as regular goals be taken seriously?

Radek Dvorak... -15
Michael Ryder... +19

Hey now, there's a reason I said a lot, not all.

piqued 04-05-2012 04:53 PM

Yeah I get that, but it's more of an indication of how the players are used by the coach than it is how they play, IMO.

At the very least if you want a +/- style assessment without digging deeper look instead at 5v5 GF/GA on ice per 60 and cut out the ENG crap.

Bennrocks 04-05-2012 05:35 PM

Even with excluding eng's it is still pretty useless because it can vary wildly with luck

Elysian 04-05-2012 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bennrocks (Post 47353033)
Even with excluding eng's it is still pretty useless because it can vary wildly with luck

The Thornton goal in the last game for example, Benn was changing onto the ice and got the minus even though he wasn't involved.

Cin 04-05-2012 08:31 PM

I've always been a big supporter of the stat. Call it a 'good aura' or whatever, but if a guy is usually a plus player, then he's doing something right a lot.

Also take a look at a number deeper stats when going a long with it, but for the most part I think it's a really accurate stat about a players skill and motivation.

hairylikebear 04-05-2012 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cin (Post 47371307)
Call it a 'good aura' or whatever, but if a guy is usually a plus player, then he's doing something right a lot.

This is a good way of looking at it. People run into trouble when they make statements like "because player X has the best +/-, they are therefore the best at defense, two-way play, etc."

Of course people don't make statements like that anymore because they get laughed off the forums if they do.

Just like every stat, you can't analyze it in a vacuum.

BigG44 04-06-2012 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cin (Post 47371307)
I've always been a big supporter of the stat. Call it a 'good aura' or whatever, but if a guy is usually a plus player, then he's doing something right a lot.

Also take a look at a number deeper stats when going a long with it, but for the most part I think it's a really accurate stat about a players skill and motivation.

A popular example of why +\- isn't as strong as relative +/- is the Boston Bruins from several seasons ago.

Quote:

One of the weaknesses of traditional +/- is that it tends to favor players on good teams - Bruins Ryder, Blake Wheeler, David Krejci, Phil Kessel and Marc Savard were all in the top ten in the league, which is not surprising given that Boston was the highest-scoring team at 5-on-5 in the NHL. At the same time, it penalizes players on bad teams - six New York Islanders were in the bottom 10.

We can make a small improvement on +/- by subtracting the +/- when a player is off the ice from it. That is, if a player was +1 goal per 60 minutes on the ice and his team was even when he was off, he ends up appearing the same as a guy who was even on the ice while his teammates were -1 per 60 minutes. It's not perfect, but it does make an adjustment for how good a player's teammates were. This statistic has several names - relative +/-, On-Ice/Off-Ice +/-, or simply "Rating", as I've called it on the stats page.
The stat rewards overall team play more so than individuals.

Troy McClure 04-06-2012 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigG44 (Post 47411801)
The stat rewards overall team play more so than individuals.

For sure. If I told you a player was -3 for a season, what does that tell you about the player? Really, it tells you nothing.

BigG44 04-06-2012 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy McClure (Post 47412835)
For sure. If I told you a player was -3 for a season, what does that tell you about the player? Really, it tells you nothing.

Exactly ... I don't know if Hamonic and Isles played last night, but he was +4 yesterday afternoon when I was looking up an example earlier. That's unimpressive until you consider Jurcina was -33 and Streit was -26. It's easy to look at that and just say both Jurcina and Streit sucked this year.

In reality, compared to teammates, yes Hamonic was the best with a relative +/- of 1.32, but Streit was only -0.35 compared to Jurcina's -1.65.

If you just look at GF and GA per 60 minutes you see that while Striet is on the ice, the team is scoring nearly 1 goal more per 60 minutes compared to Jurcina. They both get scored on at similar rates, but Streit makes up for most of that with his offense. +/- on it's own doesn't tell you that.


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