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-   -   RW Sebastian Collberg (2012, 33rd overall, Montreal; traded to NYI) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1158833)

JawandaPuck 04-08-2012 02:24 PM

RW Sebastian Collberg (2012, 33rd overall, Montreal; traded to NYI)
 
Sebastian Collberg
RW / RHS | 5'11" / 176
BORN: February 23, 1994, Mariestad, SWE
Frölunda, SEL

http://theseventhplayer.com/wp-conte...2/collberg.jpg

Rankings:
CSS Eur Mid: 2 | Eur Final: tbd
Bob McKenzie Midterm: 16 | Final: tbd


TSN Grant McCagg:
He has made a dramatic rise in the rankings over the past six months due to some impressive showings at U-20 tournaments, including the WJC, where he didn't look out of place as a 17-year-old on a gold-medal winning team.

Strengths: Has elite offensive skills, including great speed, soft hands and a nose for the puck. Uncanny puck sense and instincts, a top-notch playmaker. Great one-on-one skills.

Weaknesses: Not overly large, will need to add bulk and strength to withstand an NHL pounding. Defensive zone coverage will need some work, and will need more consistency.

NHL upside: Has been compared to Jeff Skinner in regards to his ability to always be around the puck despite his size issues. He has the skills to compete for a top-six role in the NHL.



TSN Risers/Fallers (McCagg):
"Three consecutive standout performances on the international stage in front of many of the game's top scouts have Collberg darting up NHL draft lists. Once considered a mid or late first rounder because of size issues, Collberg has some scouts pondering whether he may be the best prospect in Europe if not the entire draft after another eye catching six points in three matches at the Five Nations Cup.

"He's a warrior," said one scout who thinks he is very close to fellow Swede Filip Forsberg in the rankings."" An energy skill guy who can really dish the puck. You have to like his competitiveness.""

Collberg has a knack for being around the puck, and has drawn parallels to Carolina's Jeff Skinner in that regard. Such comparisons will make it hard for teams to pass him up in the top ten."







Collberg vs. Åberg: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=958975
Collberg vs Forsberg: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1097601

JAS 39 Gripen 04-08-2012 02:36 PM

Career SELer

Griffski 04-08-2012 02:45 PM

Well, what I've gathered so far is that this kid can SKATE.

hfboardsuser 04-08-2012 02:57 PM

McCagg hits the key points- wonderful skater, high compete level, sharp instincts around the net. Really showed what he could do when he was bumped to the top line during the WJC in place of Friberg.

He reminds me a lot of Emerson Etem.

Reddawg 04-08-2012 03:39 PM

Zero points in 46 career SEL games.

seafoam 04-08-2012 03:42 PM

Sven Bartschi of this years draft.

Marc the Habs Fan 04-08-2012 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddawg (Post 47569487)
Zero points in 46 career SEL games.

He has to be only 4th line minutes in the SEL, right?

Leehh 04-08-2012 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddawg (Post 47569487)
Zero points in 46 career SEL games.

Yup i don't see currently that he could do else than grind on a 3rd line, it might change but i don't see it happen anytime soon, maybe in 3-4 years earliest.

Manny* 04-08-2012 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan (Post 47570309)
He has to be only 4th line minutes in the SEL, right?

Most Swedish hockey fans seem to be in agreement that he's being treated less than fairly in Frolunda. There was some talk about it in the Swedish Prospects Thread not too long ago.

I was really impressed with him at the World Juniors. He really is a tremendous skater. Competes hard and gets dirty. He's got the whole package as far as offence is concerned.

hfboardsuser 04-08-2012 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddawg (Post 47569487)
Zero points in 46 career SEL games.

...playing 6:55 a game. How many points would any player produce in that situation?

What's relevant is his WJC performance- 7 points in 6 games, to be exact.

Jim Morrison 04-08-2012 04:03 PM

Frölunda could be the worst club in Sweden when it comes to handling prospects. Can't believe how badly they've treated Collberg, really.

I like the Jeff Skinner comparison.

SeriousHabs 04-08-2012 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bugg (Post 47570689)
...playing 6:55 a game. How many points would any player produce in that situation?

What's relevant is his WJC performance- 7 points in 6 games, to be exact.

More than zero.

Reddawg 04-08-2012 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bugg (Post 47570689)
...playing 6:55 a game. How many points would any player produce in that situation?

What's relevant is his WJC performance- 7 points in 6 games, to be exact.

I'm not going to pick through all of the Frolunda box scores fleshing out the point, but I looked at a dozen or so and he barely seemed to make it into the lineup most nights. One game he played 4:11 and was a -3 on the night, another night he got over 12 minutes but was still held scoreless. I don't know that much about the SEL and the politics of Euro hockey, but it doesn't sound like he was counted on as a big contributor to his team, which is something I personally look for when I'm drafting a prospect.

hfboardsuser 04-08-2012 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddawg (Post 47571305)
it doesn't sound like he was counted on as a big contributor to his team, which is something I personally look for when I'm drafting a prospect.

You can be as glib as you like, but it's quite obvious you're making judgements without every actually seeing the kid play. Try it sometime before posting in this section.

Reddawg 04-08-2012 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bugg (Post 47571457)
You can be as glib as you like, but it's quite obvious you're making judgements without every actually seeing the kid play. Try it sometime before posting in this section.

You're absolutely correct, never seen him play and basing/sharing my own opinion on statistics, which I'll continue to do regardless of your condescending brushoff.

He's playing hockey in a men's league and has never scored a point with a very healthy sample size to look at. You can look at his stats playing against 20 year olds and younger and make your determination solely based on that and that's fine, it's your opinion. My opinion is that a kid who is to be expected to make an impact against older, larger, more skilled and physical competition should demonstrably be able to do that against the competition in a lesser league than the NHL.

hfboardsuser 04-08-2012 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddawg (Post 47572023)
You're absolutely correct, never seen him play and basing/sharing my own opinion on statistics, which I'll continue to do regardless of your condescending brushoff.

That's to the benefit of all of us, I'm sure.

Quote:

He's playing hockey in a men's league and has never scored a point with a very healthy sample size to look at.
It's really not. It works out to 4 hours and 40 minutes of ice-time over the entire season.

Quote:

You can look at his stats playing against 20 year olds and younger and make your determination solely based on that and that's fine
No, I will look at his play against 20-year-olds. That is more important and not a perspective you can relate to.

Quote:

My opinion is that a kid who is to be expected to make an impact against older, larger, more skilled and physical competition should demonstrably be able to do that against the competition in a lesser league than the NHL.
Your opinion is worthless if you haven't seen him play. Sorry.

Reddawg 04-08-2012 04:40 PM

It's fine Matt...you draft him in your leagues and I'll no-draft him in mine. Is this remotely worth a prolonged argument? Scouting hockey players is making judgement calls with the information you have to work with. I'm not a hockey writer so I don't have access to the same information you have, that's why I buy your guides. (you're welcome)

Making a persuasive argument in favor of a player doesn't have to be the same thing as rudely brushing aside as worthless any opinion that doesn't agree with yours. You know more about him, clearly. I'm not sold on him anyway.


2017 update - All this nonsense, all the bashing I took, and the kid never played a single NHL game let alone scoring any NHL points. Hmm...maybe scoring-line forwards actually scoring points in lesser leagues is important after all. Maybe a kid who can't do that should be viewed as a suspect NHL prospect after all. In any event, I'm glad I DND'd him.

Rob Scuderi 04-08-2012 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddawg (Post 47572645)
It's fine Matt...you draft him in your leagues and I'll no-draft him in mine. Is this remotely worth a prolonged argument? Scouting hockey players is making judgement calls with the information you have to work with. I'm not a hockey writer so I don't have access to the same information you have, that's why I buy your guides. (you're welcome)

Making a persuasive argument in favor of a player doesn't have to be the same thing as rudely brushing aside as worthless any opinion that doesn't agree with yours. You know more about him, clearly. I'm not sold on him anyway.

I don't think the issue here is contrasting opinions, but the fact that one is based on merit and the other well...

Why should anyone care if you're sold on him or not when you admit you've never seen him play? I can open hockeydb or eliteprospects and fill this board with posts but I don't think my ignorant stat-based opinions have any merit compared to first-hand viewings.

hfboardsuser 04-08-2012 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddawg (Post 47572645)
I'm not a hockey writer so I don't have access to the same information you have, that's why I buy your guides. (you're welcome)

Yes and no. Yes, I have access to scouts and to the locker room/coaches before and after games.

But it's not as if you live in some far-flung corner of the world. You're in Rochester, if your location is accurate, and you could have watched him play on television during the WJCs!

Even if you did live in Tanzania or Nunavut, you could still watch a lot of those games- archives and torrents and whatnot. And there are opportunities to catch Elitserien games online.

You say you buy my guides- you probably also read others like RLR or ISS. I know Woodlief isn't that high on him. But then I have a chance to respond to that line of argument- I can look at what he's said and offer an actual rebuttal.

At the very least, you catch guest columns or rankings on TSN or in the newspaper. Using those as a basis of reference is absolutely fine, but you didn't even go there. You are self-admittedly using his point output (or lackthereof) as the sole basis for your argument. As BBS said, it's not constructive- for us OR for you. You have the tools to be informed. Use 'em!

YARR123 04-08-2012 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddawg (Post 47572023)
You're absolutely correct, never seen him play and basing/sharing my own opinion on statistics, which I'll continue to do regardless of your condescending brushoff.

He's playing hockey in a men's league and has never scored a point with a very healthy sample size to look at. You can look at his stats playing against 20 year olds and younger and make your determination solely based on that and that's fine, it's your opinion. My opinion is that a kid who is to be expected to make an impact against older, larger, more skilled and physical competition should demonstrably be able to do that against the competition in a lesser league than the NHL.

The thing is that some organizations just are very conservative with letting young players play. The old way is to make a youngster play in junior until he's about 18, and play him in the 4th line regardless of how talented the kid is. The kid needs to earn his playing time and that often means playing an entire year in the 4th line.

To answer the bolded, even if a prospect is expected to make an impact in the NHL in the future, it doesn't mean this prospect has to be going lights out every night in a tough pro league as a 17 year old. It's not like they're expecting most prospects to jump straight into the NHL, in most cases 1-3 years or more of developing is expected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddawg
I'm not going to pick through all of the Frolunda box scores fleshing out the point, but I looked at a dozen or so and he barely seemed to make it into the lineup most nights. One game he played 4:11 and was a -3 on the night, another night he got over 12 minutes but was still held scoreless. I don't know that much about the SEL and the politics of Euro hockey, but it doesn't sound like he was counted on as a big contributor to his team, which is something I personally look for when I'm drafting a prospect.

If that is your criteria, you would be missing on a ton of talent, as only the most talented (and in some cases not even they) become contributors. The same thing would be if underagers could play in the AHL. Would you expect Tom Wilson or Slater Koekkoek or Radek Faksa to be big contributors in an AHL team? Probably not, because they're 17 year old kids.

BTW I don't know much about Wilson or Koekkoek or Faksa, just saying to stir some thought. Do you think they would be contributors?

J17 Vs Proclamation 04-08-2012 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddawg (Post 47572645)
It's fine Matt...you draft him in your leagues and I'll no-draft him in mine. Is this remotely worth a prolonged argument? Scouting hockey players is making judgement calls with the information you have to work with. I'm not a hockey writer so I don't have access to the same information you have, that's why I buy your guides. (you're welcome)

Making a persuasive argument in favor of a player doesn't have to be the same thing as rudely brushing aside as worthless any opinion that doesn't agree with yours. You know more about him, clearly. I'm not sold on him anyway.

It would help if you had any actual reasoning behind your argument.

Statistics are veyr useful, if one understands their limitations and the situation which they existed within.

What i find odd is that this statement

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddawg (Post 47572645)
You can look at his stats playing against 20 year olds and younger and make your determination solely based on that and that's fine, it's your opinion. My opinion is that a kid who is to be expected to make an impact against older, larger, more skilled and physical competition should demonstrably be able to do that against the competition in a lesser league than the NHL.

Firstly, when was Collberg expected to make an impact? By whom? You? Can you give any substantial reasoning on this or any reliable source that suggests such a claim?

Secondly, you give the impression you are dimissing his results against players his own age. Then do you apply the same brash and ignorant logic to the CHL? After all, they are only playing against their own age group. Yes, they don't have the access to playing against men, but then i'd suggest that nearly every single draft eligible North American prospect isn't ready to play full time in the SEL. Especially in an organisation such as Frolunda, where younger players rarely see much senior opportunities.


Being skeptic about a player is fine, and of course you are entitled to an opinion. It just doesn't seem like you have any logical reasoning behind your opinion, nor do you have any real understanding of Collberg as a prospect.

Michael Gary Scott 04-08-2012 04:58 PM

Sounds kinda like Phil Kessel to me

hfboardsuser 04-08-2012 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YARR123 (Post 47573391)
Would you expect Tom Wilson or Slater Koekkoek or Radek Faksa to be big contributors in an AHL team? Probably not, because they're 17 year old kids.

I think that's a great point. Imagine if the CHL was an active farm system for the AHL. How would mid-1st round (or later) players perform playing fourth line minutes against men? Probably not well. We'd start to see a lot of these goose egg statlines, I'd wager.

Reddawg 04-08-2012 05:03 PM

Sheesh...the last thing I intended to do was start a giant debate about anything, especially about a player I know nothing about and can't argue back about intelligently.

I pointed out the simple fact that he's never scored an SEL point in his life, that's all I've got. After this thread is dead and buried, the simple fact will remain that he's participated in 46 professional hockey games at an elite level and has never contributed so much as an assist.

That was meant to be my entire thought on the player, next time I'll just keep it to myself which is clearly the goal of this rebellion against the stat looker.

KRM 04-08-2012 06:53 PM

Kenta Johansson is very restrictive when it comes to playing juniors, we saw it last season with Johan Sundström and Carl Klingberg. Klingberg decided to leave and had a good rookie campaign in the AHL, Sundström stayed and had a very good year in the SEL.

Personally I don't like Kenta, and as frustrating as it has been seeing these young talents not getting minutes with good players or any power play time, it's not like they're not learning. Many fans from other teams, and Frölunda fans as well, have called for Collberg to be loaned to Allsvenskan. I believe training with the SEL team, and getting to play against tougher competition in the SEL is better then getting a few extra minutes against lesser competition in Allsvenskan. Collberg himself has said that he didn't see Allsvenskan as an alternative, and that he feels he has become stronger and grown as a hockey player during the year, despite the lack of production.

Obviously depending on who ends up drafting him, but if he stays with Frölunda I can see him getting the same treatment as Sundström. First year you are here to learn, sophomore season we expect you to step in and contribute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Morrison (Post 47570717)
Frölunda could be the worst club in Sweden when it comes to handling prospects. Can't believe how badly they've treated Collberg, really.

Yea that's probably how they're second to only CSKA Moscow in number of players drafted from Europe. And let's not talk about all other who pass through the system and end up being quality players in the SEL or Allsvenskan.


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