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-   -   Has the window closed? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1167849)

66877168 04-16-2012 08:36 AM

Has the window closed?
 
Free Agency accelerates the breakdown of great teams. Have the Penguins lost too many role players to make another serious run?

MrBurgundy* 04-16-2012 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 66877168 (Post 48153459)
Free Agency accelerates the breakdown of great teams. Have the Penguins lost too many role players to make another serious run?

No, the core is intact and will remain intact for the foreseeable future.

SidGenoMario 04-16-2012 08:38 AM

Yeah, Crosby and Malkin are past their prime. If only we could get early-April-2012 Geno and Sid back. Oh, the good ol' days.

66877168 04-16-2012 08:44 AM

The 90's Penguins had their core and could never pull it off again. I'm seeing a repeat of that scenario. It has nothing to do with Crosby and Malkin. Lemieux and Jagr were the best in the world as well, but they never again had the right blend of players behind them.

SteelFish87* 04-16-2012 08:51 AM

No. Our highest paid d-man sucks at playing hockey

Fleury is in one of his slumps aftrer having a great season. I think that hit to the head he took messed him up a bit

WVP 04-16-2012 08:51 AM

Lost too many role players? That should be the easy part.

This team has two of the absolute best centers + Neal + Letang, that alone is enough to contend. Especially when the other parts are playing to standard.

vikingGoalie 04-16-2012 08:53 AM

ugh, I was trying to forget that...
I remember quite well how we lost against the islanders and never really got there again.

This is an epic failure of this team, this team doesn't handle being favored very well. Everytime we top some power ranking, or get proclaimed the best in the land we always go into the tank.

I can't imagine that Blysma is not on the hot seat to some degree after this debacle. Not saying it's all his fault, but the utter lack of discipline on the ice is mind boggling. I think we have a shot to come back and get another cup with this core, but not without major re-tooling on D, and maybe a much better backup goalie to push Fleury.

Uncle Jorgi 04-16-2012 08:58 AM

This is easily the dumbest thread i've seen in a long time. We've got Sid back healthy, the soon-to-be-Hart trophy winner, a perennial Norris candidate, a 40 goal sniper, a guy who was in the discussion for the Vezina the past two years, and a Selke runner-up two-way power forward still years away from his prime, and we're asking if the window has closed because we don't have the right "role players"?

It's amazing how quickly a disappointing playoff series will turn this place into a panicked mess.

Shady Machine 04-16-2012 08:59 AM

The window is not closed. What we need is a youth movement. And defense of course (which will be the youth movement). Get Despres and Strait on the back end next season and bring in a veteran shutdown d at the deadline. Dump Martin and Lovejoy, Maybe Orpik.

MrBurgundy* 04-16-2012 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shady Machine (Post 48154295)
The window is not closed. What we need is a youth movement. And defense of course (which will be the youth movement). Get Despres and Strait on the back end next season and bring in a veteran shutdown d at the deadline. Dump Martin and Lovejoy, Maybe Orpik.

No, dump Orpik as well. Let Morrow play too.

spcastlemagic 04-16-2012 09:01 AM

Yes. They can still rebuild and retool on the fly and open a new window though.

MrBurgundy* 04-16-2012 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spcastlemagic (Post 48154353)
Yes. They can still rebuild and retool on the fly and open a new window though.

This is what I wanted them to do for the past season and a half...

Unstable 04-16-2012 09:05 AM

Remember that it is nigh-impossible to win the Cup, with 15 worthy (well, 6-10 worthy) teams failing to each year. If you make the playoffs you have a chance, therefore the "window" is open as long as you're a top-16 team. Which, really, should be always. It's not that hard to make the playoffs in the NHL.

spcastlemagic 04-16-2012 09:10 AM

It's not hard to make the playoffs. It's impossible to advance when you implode on defense, special teams, and goaltending in them every year.

ForzaItalia 04-16-2012 09:19 AM

Do you Pens fans feel that you can ever win a Cup with Fleury again?

Captain Hook 04-16-2012 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForzaItalia (Post 48155067)
Do you Pens fans feel that you can ever win a Cup with Fleury again?

Yes because he doesn't usually play this terrible. Fans that don't see all of our games might think he's always like this, but he isn't. He was remarkably consistent from the late fall/early winter of 2010 until the last 2 weeks of this regular season and the playoffs. I have no idea what has happened to him down the stretch.

kasper11 04-16-2012 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Hook (Post 48156393)
Yes because he doesn't usually play this terrible. Fans that don't see all of our games might think he's always like this, but he isn't. He was remarkably consistent from the late fall/early winter of 2010 until the last 2 weeks of this regular season and the playoffs. I have no idea what has happened to him down the stretch.

He doesn't usually play this bad, but really, he hasn't been great in the playoffs since the Pens lost to the Wings in the finals.

Even when they won the Cup, he wasn't at his best, and since then he has been pretty bad every year.

For starters, he probably shouldn't be playing 65+ games a year. If he is failing in April consistently, he could be getting worn down. Get a better backup and limit him to 55-60 games.

Then, you need to protect Fleury. He isn't a Lundqvist or Quick, he isn't going to win a series for you. Focus on defense. Fleury seems to me to lose confidence a little more than you would want in a goalie, so stop leaving him hung out to dry.

MrBurgundy* 04-16-2012 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kasper11 (Post 48156957)
He doesn't usually play this bad, but really, he hasn't been great in the playoffs since the Pens lost to the Wings in the finals.

Even when they won the Cup, he wasn't at his best, and since then he has been pretty bad every year.

For starters, he probably shouldn't be playing 65+ games a year. If he is failing in April consistently, he could be getting worn down. Get a better backup and limit him to 55-60 games.

Then, you need to protect Fleury. He isn't a Lundqvist or Quick, he isn't going to win a series for you. Focus on defense. Fleury seems to me to lose confidence a little more than you would want in a goalie, so stop leaving him hung out to dry.

What options are out there though for a better backup that can fit into our cost structure?

sniugneP 04-16-2012 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForzaItalia (Post 48155067)
Do you Pens fans feel that you can ever win a Cup with Fleury again?

With bad defense in front of him, no. Not saying it's his fault but it would help him a lot if we play tight, disciplined defense.

Captain Hook 04-16-2012 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kasper11 (Post 48156957)
He doesn't usually play this bad, but really, he hasn't been great in the playoffs since the Pens lost to the Wings in the finals.

Even when they won the Cup, he wasn't at his best, and since then he has been pretty bad every year.

For starters, he probably shouldn't be playing 65+ games a year. If he is failing in April consistently, he could be getting worn down. Get a better backup and limit him to 55-60 games.

Then, you need to protect Fleury. He isn't a Lundqvist or Quick, he isn't going to win a series for you. Focus on defense. Fleury seems to me to lose confidence a little more than you would want in a goalie, so stop leaving him hung out to dry.

I agree he needs less games during the regular season and probably needs insulated by a tighter defensive style/system.

He has been good at times since the 2008 Finals loss. He was spectacular against Philly in the 2009 playoffs, shaky early in the Washington series, solid against Carolina, horrendous in 3 road games in those 2009 Finals, but dominate in the 3 home games and the game 7 on the road.

I didn't mind him in the Ottawa series that we won in 2010. He wasn't great or horrible. Hard to complain about that. I didn't think he played that poorly against Tamp last year. He had a horrible game early in the series that killed his stats, but for the most part he still gave the team a chance to win the rest of the games. The team just couldn't score.

The Montreal series and this Philly series are his two worst performances of his career. Just embarrassingly bad. It's why his reputation with other fan bases is so bad.

Jag68Sid87 04-16-2012 10:21 AM

I suppose finding a quality backup for Fleury is an option for the off-season. But if you add to the goalie budget, you'd have to subtract somewhere else. If we're talking about going from a bare minimum salaried goalie to one making $1-1.5 million, that wouldn't be that big of a deal. But would said goalie make the impact on Fleury, keep the latter fresh enough and still produce enough for us? If not, we'd have to get someone even more expensive. So that might cost us a Tyler Kennedy, or maybe a Kunitz. Or maybe an Orpik or Michalek. I doubt we're talking about a $5 million backup (Martin's cap hit).

And at the end of the day, if we're talking about significantly upgrading the backup position, so that we can get someone who can do for Fleury what say Cory Schneider has done for Vancouver, then what are we really saying here? Because Luongo is about to lose his gig in Vancouver. So what we'd really be saying is we're looking to replace Fleury, over time.

If that's the mind set, might as well speed up the process imo.

Jag68Sid87 04-16-2012 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Hook (Post 48157953)
The Montreal series and this Philly series are his two worst performances of his career. Just embarrassingly bad. It's why his reputation with other fan bases is so bad.

I think it's also why WE should be questioning him. Look, I don't think there's much question about Fleury's talent. But where's the consistency? Maybe we should look to revamp the defense completely, combine it with even more offense and then let the chips fall where they may in the crease. Other teams have gone in this direction, and personally I'm a believer in going the short-term plan with goalies. They're a lot like coaches. Franchise goalies may be slightly easier to find than career coaches, but they're both not easy to find at all. Guys we THINK are franchise goalies (like Fleury, Luongo) are often too inconsistent. And then franchise goalies suddenly appear from way deep in the draft, like Lundqvist and Rinne. It's a total crap shoot.

Maybe if we got the right coach for this superstar-laden roster, revamped the blueline and added even more offense, we wouldn't need Fleury to steal us a game in Philadelphia. Maybe we'd just need a guy to come up with a couple of key saves here and there.

Maybe all we need is our version of Antti Niemi.

kasper11 04-16-2012 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 (Post 48158037)
I suppose finding a quality backup for Fleury is an option for the off-season. But if you add to the goalie budget, you'd have to subtract somewhere else. If we're talking about going from a bare minimum salaried goalie to one making $1-1.5 million, that wouldn't be that big of a deal. But would said goalie make the impact on Fleury, keep the latter fresh enough and still produce enough for us? If not, we'd have to get someone even more expensive. So that might cost us a Tyler Kennedy, or maybe a Kunitz. Or maybe an Orpik or Michalek. I doubt we're talking about a $5 million backup (Martin's cap hit).

And at the end of the day, if we're talking about significantly upgrading the backup position, so that we can get someone who can do for Fleury what say Cory Schneider has done for Vancouver, then what are we really saying here? Because Luongo is about to lose his gig in Vancouver. So what we'd really be saying is we're looking to replace Fleury, over time.

If that's the mind set, might as well speed up the process imo.

I don't think you need a Schneider type backup...spending $1-1.5M to get a Biron/Ellis/Leighton/Clemmensen would be sufficient.

Honestly, the backup isn't as important as the commitment from the coach to play the backup 20-25 times. There is a chance doing so may have cost Pitt home ice in the first round this year, but you have to take that chance.

And there is a decent chance that extra rest wouldn't make a difference. Maybe Fleury's confidence is just shot right now in the playoffs. But I think you have to give him every opportunity to succeed before you make a drastic change.

bigd 04-16-2012 10:55 AM

Maybe we can score 9 goals on Wednesday. Do you think that will get us the W?

eXile59 04-16-2012 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigd (Post 48160157)
Maybe we can score 9 goals on Wednesday. Do you think that will get us the W?

No they'll just score 12.


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