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briman 12-06-2004 02:17 PM

Shaping the Sens
 
With all the interest in making moves to develop the current Ottawa team, there are in my opinion only about two holes to fill.
1. a #1 or #2 center
2. a #1 or #2 left wing who scores, but also possesses a bit of grit

Tradable players might be
1. Todd White a #2 center with #3 talent
2. Daniel Alfredsson a leader who's a bit old but can still pot 30+ goals
3. Vrada a gritty winger
4. DeVries a defenseman with playoff experience

Players they could use?

Volcanologist 12-06-2004 02:21 PM

Alfredsson is not a tradable player.
They just signed him long term.

As for the rest of the players in your list, good luck getting the type of talent you're looking for with that.

Bileur 12-06-2004 02:25 PM

Alfredsson wont be traded.
de Vries Wont be traded (did you see that guy's contract?).

briman 12-06-2004 02:32 PM

Clearly it will be a tough sell to ship either DeVries or Alfredsson. However, there is in my opinion little room to shape this highly skilled team. Few players could be easily added or moved. As such in this league a team sometimes has to give up a little to get something they need in return. One may not want to move either of these players. However, there was a post that generated a discussion for weeks concerning a trade Alfredsson for joikenen straight up. It was absurd. My point is; if moves are to be made, it will come at a great expense to the Ottawa team, players and picks may have to be used to get a player of skill.

For example,I think a player like Brenden Morrisson would be an excellent addition to the sens

Trottier 12-06-2004 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briman

Tradable players might be
1. Todd White a #2 center with #3 talent
2. Daniel Alfredsson a leader who's a bit old but can still pot 30+ goals
3. Vrada a gritty winger
4. DeVries a defenseman with playoff experience

Players they could use?

Answer:

A veteran leader who can pot 30 goals. (BTW, 32 is not "old" for an NHLer. Alfredsson turns 32 this week.)

A gritty winger

A defenseman with playoff experience.

;)

That assumes, of course, you wish to "shape" them into a Cup winner. There is no need to "develop" an already serious contender. What is needed is to find the missing part(s) to get to the next step, while not trading away experience and grit, which are invaluable come springtime. Put another way: you don't climb Mt. Everest only to turn back when you are 100 feet from the top. Alfredsson may not be the prototypical captain and DeVries had a lousy stint after his acquisition. Big deal! They have track records, and the latter has Cup experience. And Vrada will "pay the price". You need players like that to win Cups.

Teams learn from losing together. Do you expect players like Spezza, Havlat, Volchenkov and even Fisher and Vermette to continue to develop? If so, there remains a fair chance that the right chemistry already exists on the Sens roster as currently constituted, despite their playoff disappointments of the last several years. (And it is worth remembering that you have upgraded with championship experience in net.) A minor tweak is all that may be needed.

Just my opinion.

trentmccleary 12-06-2004 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briman
Tradable players might be
1. Todd White a #2 center with #3 talent
2. Daniel Alfredsson a leader who's a bit old but can still pot 30+ goals
3. Vrada a gritty winger
4. DeVries a defenseman with playoff experience

These players are all "older", more expensive and developed.

Problem being that trades always seem to be:
picks/prospects for older, more expensive, developed players who could help win a Cup.

If we trade for picks and prospects, we delay or possibly give up any chance for a Cup.
If we find a player we need from a team that may want to challenge themselves (let's say Brendan Morrow). Why would that team want to fill one hole and create another hole. However, in this instance at least 3 of those players would represent a significant downgrade. While picks and prospects could even things out, the other team is left in a situation where they are worse today... and will probably be worse tomorrow (when the prospect develops and the veteran is gone).

To get what you'd want, our trade list would start with any one of our top 5 prospects. Your trading partners would be any one of the teams you expect to finish 21st-30th when hockey resumes.

Trottier 12-06-2004 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trentmccleary
To get what you'd want, our trade list would start with any one of our top 5 prospects. Your trading partners would be any one of the teams you expect to finish 21st-30th when hockey resumes.

Some Sens fans may not want to read that (giving up young talent), but you are thinking realistically and making sense. I personally would not touch the core of the NHL team, including Alfredsson. Might make sense to get through the season (whenever that is) and look to pick a grit vet (on a shorter contract) come March, e.g., a Shanahan, Peca, Roberts, etc., if their current teams are willing to talk.

DanStewartFC 12-06-2004 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briman
With all the interest in making moves to develop the current Ottawa team, there are in my opinion only about two holes to fill.
1. a #1 or #2 center
2. a #1 or #2 left wing who scores, but also possesses a bit of grit

Cup4Wings Proposal #100,573:

To Ottawa: LW Brendan Shanahan, C Robert Lang(+6 Million).

To Detroit: LW Igor Mirnov, 1st rounder 05, RW Brandon Bochenski.

Ottawa gets a PF in the tail end of a HOF Career who can still pot 30+ goals and 100+ PIM. A #1 center with size who at 3 Million a year is a great deal for the next 3 yrs. Both these players are both good on "D" as well as on "O".

Detroit gets some much needed youth in the organization.

Vatican Roulette 12-06-2004 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briman
With all the interest in making moves to develop the current Ottawa team, there are in my opinion only about two holes to fill.
1. a #1 or #2 center
2. a #1 or #2 left wing who scores, but also possesses a bit of grit

Tradable players might be
1. Todd White a #2 center with #3 talent
2. Daniel Alfredsson a leader who's a bit old but can still pot 30+ goals
3. Vrada a gritty winger
4. DeVries a defenseman with playoff experience

Players they could use?

3. #1 goalie. Better hope Prusek can handle the #1.

briman 12-06-2004 03:17 PM

No kidding they need a #1 there is no way that Hasek can handle the minutes. He was only brought in to appease the fans. I agree a true #1 is in desperate need. I can't believe I forgot that one.

Also Shanahan might be a good one.

Safir* 12-06-2004 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cup4Wings
Cup4Wings Proposal #100,573:

To Ottawa: LW Brendan Shanahan, C Robert Lang(+6 Million).

To Detroit: LW Igor Mirnov, 1st rounder 05, RW Brandon Bochenski.

Ottawa gets a PF in the tail end of a HOF Career who can still pot 30+ goals and 100+ PIM. A #1 center with size who at 3 Million a year is a great deal for the next 3 yrs. Both these players are both good on "D" as well as on "O".

Detroit gets some much needed youth in the organization.

Theory & Reality are sometimes very far appart. ;)

IdiotsPickedMyName* 12-06-2004 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cup4Wings
Cup4Wings Proposal #100,573:

To Ottawa: LW Brendan Shanahan, C Robert Lang(+6 Million).

To Detroit: LW Igor Mirnov, 1st rounder 05, RW Brandon Bochenski.

Ottawa gets a PF in the tail end of a HOF Career who can still pot 30+ goals and 100+ PIM. A #1 center with size who at 3 Million a year is a great deal for the next 3 yrs. Both these players are both good on "D" as well as on "O".

Detroit gets some much needed youth in the organization.



The sens wont be trading their no 1 pick for the 2005 draft when its to be held in Ottawa this would be a very bad PR move. As for the rest im no good with this trade thing but i wouldnt want to give up 2 of our top 10 prospects. Bonk was traded to make way for spezza why would we get Lang even at a no 2 role. Lang may be big but plays like todd white and has no determination or work ethic not what this team needs. As to shanny i liked him in 1994, 2004??? not so sure. While still being able to pot some goals hes no longer the same PF he once was. While these guys bring some stuff to the table i dont want to the sens getting older taking on alot more payroll in these uncertain times. (Even if cash is sent this adds 9mil in payroll contract under a hard cap i believe) Youth for Youth is what i want to see otherwise the sens might end up like those Maple Leafs south of us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by briman
No kidding they need a #1 there is no way that Hasek can handle the minutes. He was only brought in to appease the fans. I agree a true #1 is in desperate need. I can't believe I forgot that one.

Also Shanahan might be a good one.

Hasek is one of the most succesful goalies of all-time im willing to give him a try, it worked for pittsburgh bringing mario back that first season. I see no reason for hasek not to be able to perform up to his usual acrobatic self lots of players have bounced back from missed seasons, Hasek should be out to prove he can do it because of all the negative media. Hasek is bullheaded and will likely try to prove the media wrong. As with any older goalie there are concerns but when going for lord stanley gambles have to be made.

(I never thought i'd see the day when im defending hasek after those playoffs in 99)

Trottier 12-06-2004 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjbth
Hasek is one of the most succesful goalies of all-time im willing to give him a try, it worked for pittsburgh bringing mario back that first season. I see no reason for hasek not to be able to perform up to his usual acrobatic self lots of players have bounced back from missed seasons...As with any older goalie there are concerns but when going for lord stanley gambles have to be made.

Your dose of reality is appreciated, at least here.

Why in the world does anyone think the Sens went out and signed a guy with a Stanley Cup and World Championship resume? To not be the #1?! :lol

Let me guess? He won't be the answer in 2007 because he is "soooo old"? So what?! With a team like the Sens, he idea is to try to win for a first time...NOW!

Just a friendly observation, but if any Sens fans are headed into the next season expecting Prusek, one of their prospects (or better yet, another goalie outside the organization) to be their #1 and lead them to the Cup next season, welcome back to Planet Earth. Your season in goal is staked squarely on Hasek, silly age biases aside.

McDonald19 12-06-2004 05:18 PM

You want a 8 million dollar number 1 center?

Ducks will send you Fedorov for Meszaros and...

AG9NK35DT8* 12-06-2004 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bileur
Alfredsson wont be traded.
de Vries Wont be traded (did you see that guy's contract?).

fIRST OFF WHY WOULD oTTAWA WANT TO TRADE dEVRIES.THEY HAVE A PRETTY GOOD D and Devries could help in the defensive part of things yet chip in some points also.

deVries is a very underrated playe r and being a NYR fan and getting to watch him play when here he was an overall + on a horrible NYR team.Very underarted and Ottawa should be glad they have him.

littleHossa 12-06-2004 07:03 PM

Muckler wouldn't do any trades right now. He will barely change anything when it comes to the team and still thinks as White as our #1 center. I don't know if he will sign any of our new prospects like Kaigorodov, much less make big trades.

burgess1978 12-06-2004 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trottier
Answer:

Teams learn from losing together. Do you expect players like Spezza, Havlat, Volchenkov and even Fisher and Vermette to continue to develop? If so, there remains a fair chance that the right chemistry already exists on the Sens roster as currently constituted, despite their playoff disappointments of the last several years. (And it is worth remembering that you have upgraded with championship expereince in net.) A minor tweak is all that may be needed.

Just my opinion.

I agree 100%. Last year Fisher, White, Varada, Bonk and Vochenkov I believe were all out leading in to the last 10 games. The Sens had quite a poor end to the season, not just the playoffs. It takes time to get settled (for all of these players - and de Vries). I think de Vries will definitely be at the very least a solid #5 defensemen. If Volchenkov can play with Redden then that works. It takes the pressure off de Vries and Pothier of having to play top minutes with Redden.

Wondercarrot 12-07-2004 09:34 AM

Quote:

You want a 8 million dollar number 1 center?

Ducks will send you Fedorov for Meszaros and...
Would the Ducks be willing to pay any of that salary? If they picked up a couple million per year on the contract. I'd give you Mezaros and a good pick for him.

Smolinski-Fedorov-Alfredsson
Havlat-Spezza-Hossa
Vermette-Fisher-Neil
Varada-White=Langfeld

Redden-Devries
Chara-Phillips
Vochenkov-Pothier

Id then get rid of White and pick a mean SOB for the 4th line. I love Mezaros but that line-up is awesome. So much firepower.

Kesler Kills Kommies 12-07-2004 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
Would the Ducks be willing to pay any of that salary? If they picked up a couple million per year on the contract. I'd give you Mezaros and a good pick for him.

Smolinski-Fedorov-Alfredsson
Havlat-Spezza-Hossa
Vermette-Fisher-Neil
Varada-White=Langfeld

Redden-Devries
Chara-Phillips
Vochenkov-Pothier

Id then get rid of White and pick a mean SOB for the 4th line. I love Mezaros but that line-up is awesome. So much firepower.

i dont think the sens would want federov, as he is already on a decline with the mighty ducks.

mercury 12-07-2004 04:20 PM

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Handzus+ for Havlat.

Sensored 12-07-2004 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
Would the Ducks be willing to pay any of that salary? If they picked up a couple million per year on the contract. I'd give you Mezaros and a good pick for him.

Smolinski-Fedorov-Alfredsson
Havlat-Spezza-Hossa
Vermette-Fisher-Neil
Varada-White=Langfeld

Redden-Devries
Chara-Phillips
Vochenkov-Pothier

Id then get rid of White and pick a mean SOB for the 4th line. I love Mezaros but that line-up is awesome. So much firepower.

you forgot Schaefer and Varada hasn't been re-signed yet

so more like

Havlat-Fedorov-Alfredsson
Smolinski-Spezza-Hossa
Vermette-Fisher-Niel
Schaefer-White-Langfeld

except i dont like scahefer on the fourth line or Vermette on the third line or the 8mil dollars or the idea of losing Meszaros so i say no from a sens POV

aragorn 12-07-2004 06:31 PM

IMO there are two things that the Sens need to win a cup, first it's a poward forward left winger, a guy who has grit, will drop them from time to time and can score. There are a few around but I'm not sure anyone is willing to give them up and what will it cost Ottawa to get any of them.
Scott Hartnell, Todd Bertuzzi, Eric Cole, Ryan Malone, ...

The 2nd acquistion they need is a feared enforcer like George Laroque, Peter Worell or Brashere. Laroque could play LW and Neil RW and re-sign Todd Simpson for those "tough" games. They could bring up McGratton to play centre on this line.

OKAY - Alfredson, White, Lyamin, Thompson and our 2nd pick in 2005 for Todd Bertuzzi.

Wouldn't that be interested if Ottawa were to get both Bertuzzi and Laroque and neither one of them want to fight anymore. :mad: :banghead:

mercury 12-07-2004 06:33 PM

You want Brashear? Let's make a deal, baby!

me2 12-07-2004 07:52 PM

Can the Sens add salary?

Shanahan just doesn't have "it" anymore. I'd go looking for something younger and meaner.

Bertuzzi would be just too expensive unless they shifted Alfredsson for him (unlikely from the Nucks PoV).


Lang might not be a bad pickup if the Wings eat 1/2 his salary.

Free up White/Fischer/Havlat/prospects & picks to be used in the search for the elusive PF. I know Sens fans don't want to trade Havlat & other quality youngsters but if it could net them a guy like Doan or Smyth it would be worth it.

McDonald19 12-07-2004 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vancouver_2010
i dont think the sens would want federov, as he is already on a decline with the mighty ducks.

small decline or not he is still one of the best centers in the league.

I only offer that trade Idea because I would want his salary off the books so the Ducks can go into rebuild.


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