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Kington87 04-30-2012 02:56 PM

Johansen's role next year
 
What do you guys think RyJo's role will be next year? Anyone think it'll be similar to Seguin w the Bruins next year? Also, anyone think Cam starts on line 1?

Samkow 04-30-2012 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kington87 (Post 49064589)
What do you guys think RyJo's role will be next year? Anyone think it'll be similar to Seguin w the Bruins next year? Also, anyone think Cam starts on line 1?

Depends on if Johansen improves on his conditioning. If he shows up for 2012 Training Camp in the same shape he arrived in for 2011 Training Camp, he's not going to be capable of playing a top 6 role for the duration of the season.

Nordique 04-30-2012 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samkow (Post 49064825)
Depends on if Johansen improves on his conditioning. If he shows up for 2012 Training Camp in the same shape he arrived in for 2011 Training Camp, he's not going to be capable of playing a top 6 role for the duration of the season.

I agree on Ryan, he needs to add speed too. I think he could be top 6 if he takes it seriously in the off season. He looked much improved the last 10 games or so, or maybe it was motivation.

Atkinson could make the top line, depending on what other pieces we add and what is done with Nash. I think ideally he'd be on the 2nd line, 15 minutes a night with PP ice time.

blahblah 04-30-2012 03:24 PM

Richards whipping boy.

Xoggz22 04-30-2012 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kington87 (Post 49064589)
What do you guys think RyJo's role will be next year? Anyone think it'll be similar to Seguin w the Bruins next year? Also, anyone think Cam starts on line 1?

I think Johansen is going to have to prove he can play at a level comensurate with being "top 6". Cam showed this last year and actually seemed to improve as the year moved along. I don't think Johansen is put in a position like Seguin but he'll move up as he shows the commitment to all three zones and demonstrates improved fitness.

As for Cam, it's anyone's guess but if RJ and Brass are around next year, I think he complemented that line quite well. Given Nash is likely to be gone that seems destined to become the defacto #1 line. I think that spells serious trouble for the CBJ because without Nash this group is likely to draw the heavy D lines.

JacketsFanWest 04-30-2012 04:05 PM

I recall Johansen training some in Columbus during the summer, so I'm not sure he's exactly slacking off and coming in out of shape. It's likely he focused too much on getting stronger last summer rather than cardio. All rookies need about how much work they do need to put in and all can increase their fitness level, but if Johansen did come in to camp out of shape after spending that much time working out with the training staff, they need to be fired.


Recent article from the Portland Tribute about Johansen:

Quote:

Johansen, meanwhile, will train with Columbus teammate Colton Gillies all summer in B.C.

“I want to add a lot of strength and get up to around 215,” Johansen says. “I’d like to have my cardio level really high.”

Johansen says he’s not going to set individual goals for next season.

“The only thing I can control is getting myself ready and contributing to the team as much as possible,” he says. “My goal is to play a top role and be able to contribute night in and night out. The stats should take care of themselves.”


http://www.portlandtribune.com/sport...97514796996500


Kington87 04-30-2012 05:12 PM

Great article, interesting stuff. Sounds like he is pretty committed. If he comes to camp in shape, I could see a big season for him

Doug19 04-30-2012 07:24 PM

I think his strength and conditioning will be the key deciding factor in his role next season. It was no secret that he got winded easily last season, so he has to greatly improve that if he plans to play 16 minutes a night in the NHL.

JACKETfan 04-30-2012 07:33 PM

If Howson is here, it won't matter.
If Howson is gone, Johansen might begin living up to the hype.

Personally, if he didn't play for us next year, it would be a good sign that he is developing where he belongs. instead of filling out another weak Jackets roster.

Doug19 04-30-2012 07:45 PM

The staff definitely needs to start expecting more and not only that, but putting players in positions to succeed. Johansen can't be playing with 4th line grinders if you want him to succeed in the NHL, and they should have demanded his conditioning to be better. He was a 19 year old kid, and likely isn't mature enough to know what it takes to be a pro, kids still need to be reminded what they should be doing, and then even checked on.

Derby 04-30-2012 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug61 (Post 49077597)
The staff definitely needs to start expecting more and not only that, but putting players in positions to succeed. Johansen can't be playing with 4th line grinders if you want him to succeed in the NHL, and they should have demanded his conditioning to be better. He was a 19 year old kid, and likely isn't mature enough to know what it takes to be a pro, kids still need to be reminded what they should be doing, and then even checked on.

See Voracek, Brassard, Brule, Filatov, etc... These guys were put in top line slots without "earning it".

IMO this is a big problem with CBJ development. Make the kids earn it. Let Johansen work his way to the top lines and not have to face top defensive pairings, etc, right out of the gate. Jake is thriving in his relative obscurity in Philly. This is a great way to develop players.

Not every rookie (see Couturier) can shut down Malkin when they are 19 yrs old.

Robert 04-30-2012 09:28 PM

Johansen should start... yeah, yeah; I know all about the Brule syndrome but I also know what I have seen, this guy has NHL written all over him if coached by and paired with legitimate NHL professionals.

JACKETfan 04-30-2012 09:32 PM

That's the scouting report, Bob.
Where's the game proof?
I saw him getting worse all year.

Robert 04-30-2012 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JACKETfan (Post 49087993)
That the scouting report, Bob.
Where's the game proof?

It's hard for any young player to prove anyting when mired in an ocean of muck..., I know what I've seen. Johansen has the goods, the question is the environment.

Doug19 04-30-2012 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derby (Post 49078641)
See Voracek, Brassard, Brule, Filatov, etc... These guys were put in top line slots without "earning it".

IMO this is a big problem with CBJ development. Make the kids earn it. Let Johansen work his way to the top lines and not have to face top defensive pairings, etc, right out of the gate. Jake is thriving in his relative obscurity in Philly. This is a great way to develop players.

Not every rookie (see Couturier) can shut down Malkin when they are 19 yrs old.

Really now, because I seem to recall Brassard and Voracek with Chimera there rookie seasons. Filatov played like 40 games for us, and Brule if I remember correctly (can't remember that season) never played with anybody of skill. I think it's a pretty big myth that Columbus hands these kids spots, when it isn't true, to me it seems that other than Voracek they typically play these guys with a bunch of guys who don't belong in the league or at the very least belong playing 5-7 minutes a night. Brassard has spent plenty of time in the doghouse as has Voracek, Filatov, and Johansen. It's fine that you want to make the kids work and earn spots, but the kids still need to play with capable players when they are working for spots. If you can't provide them with capable linemates, then they shouldn't be playing on the big club period. Nobody is asking to hand these kids top line duties, only they need to either find a way to get them meaningful time on the ice or send them to juniors/ahl.

Other teams make there kids earn it lower in the lineup because they have players in the bottom of the lineup who are still capable of playing at a high level. I think there is a pretty good reason why our rookies never amount to anything like they were expected, while every other team can develop players and it has nothing to do with giving the kids a spot, because that hasn't happened in recent memory. I find it odd you guys keep harping that position when that earn it with pluggers theory is not at all how the NHL actually has worked. If you need examples just go to NHL.com and look at the stats for rookies, and then look at where they play on the depth chart.

Johansen himself is a perfect example. He had like 15 points in 36 games when Arniel was fired and only managed 6 in 31 games the rest of the way. Difference was he went from playing with capable players to being in the dog house post allstar game for reasons we will never know.

Voracek is thriving in Philly (by the way he scored 49 points) because he is still playing with quality linemates, and if you think he was where he is now all season you are wrong, he spent time on the top 2 lines as well as the bottom of the linemate.

Brassard hasn't thrived, he was developed with a bunch of pluggers a lot of nights.

Filatov, while a little baby, was completely miss managed from day one and that had nothing to do with giving him a spot which didn't happen.

Klesla same thing as all the others. Mishandled and never reached his potential.

Nash certainly isn't what he should be.

Picard don't know about him, I think he just sucked.

Brule same with Picard.

Leclaire couldn't stay healthy.

Moore thrived when playing with Wisniewski, and played considerably worse with Johnson and Lebda again point to the fact that young guys need to be on the ice with good players.

JACKETfan 04-30-2012 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert (Post 49089125)
It's hard for any young player to prove anyting when mired in an ocean of muck..., I know what I've seen. Johansen has the goods, the question is the environment.

Good point about the muck. But isn't rising above the muck an important sign of talent? Nash did it, Dineen, Whitney.

One would have to say that EVERY young kid who comes this far must have talent. You don't make it that far without it. And you felt the same way about Z, and yet he couldn't make a home even in NY and is now middling back in the KHL. So is muck yet another excuse? I guess what I continue to say is that I don't trust youth or flashes of talent, and refuse to fawn over it until the stats warrant it.

JacketsFanWest 04-30-2012 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug61 (Post 49090723)
Picard don't know about him, I think he just sucked.

Seriously? You don't know anything about him, but he sucks. :shakehead

Picard was rushed no doubt but he also destroyed his knee in the AHL playoffs and was never the same again.

He also got into the mindset of coming in and proving he could play physical and be a 4th liner - hit first, skate around like a one man wrecking crew and even fighting. He forgot he was an offensive threat in juniors and by the time he finally found his offensive game in the AHL, he just wasn't going to make the NHL with his knee injury.

Picard started out with an awkward skating style from being a former speed skater and just got pegged as being a guy whose skating will keep him out of the NHL. And he just couldn't score. He was so snakebit. He'd miss wide open nets.


One of the problems a lot of the prospects have is shining in the preseason when the games don't count, vets are going thru the motions and half the teams are AHLers and prospects. That sets them (and fans and the coaching staff and management) with high hopes. Picard, Brule, Filatov all have done very well in the preseason then crashed and burned in the regular season.

There's also the problem of getting youngsters who have very high opinions of themselves to listen when the team is losing and they think they know how to play hockey. On a team with a tradition of winning, the rookies aren't going to question what the veterans or coaching staff says.

On the Jackets say Rookie X gets demoted down to the 4th line for missing a defensive assignment. Instead of working his butt off to move back up in the lineup, he whines and complains that the coaching staff are idiots, he's right, they're wrong and he deserves more ice time and if he was playing with better linemates, he would be scoring. He never learns and ends up demoted or benched. It becomes a vicious cycle, especially when you have so many coaching changes that enforces that the problem is the coach - not the players.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug61 (Post 49090723)

Filatov, while a little baby, was completely miss managed from day one and that had nothing to do with giving him a spot which didn't happen.

I'd really like to know what people think the Jackets should have done with Filatov. Told him to stay in Russia without a transfer agreement and risk he would get locked into a long term contract? He COULDN'T be assigned to the OHL until November. He was scoring over a point a game average in the AHL by the time Sudbury arranged permission for Filatov to play there and it seemed silly.

Crede777 05-01-2012 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert (Post 49089125)
It's hard for any young player to prove anyting when mired in an ocean of muck..., I know what I've seen. Johansen has the goods, the question is the environment.

He's one of the central players expected to change that environment.

It's time we stopped having players who are "boo-hoo this team is bringing me down" and have players that are actively improving the team. Like Jack Johnson for instance and Cam Atkinson. We not only need players that are tired of losing but ones who will be the reason that the losing stops.

Look at the Vermette article on NHL.com. He said it was great going from a team that "is going nowhere" to a team in the playoffs. Well guess what, he's a very big part of the reason why we are finishing last whether he wants to admit it or not. What we need are players who drive this team to success themselves, not guys who are along for the ride.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacketsFanWest
On the Jackets say Rookie X gets demoted down to the 4th line for missing a defensive assignment. Instead of working his butt off to move back up in the lineup, he whines and complains that the coaching staff are idiots, he's right, they're wrong and he deserves more ice time and if he was playing with better linemates, he would be scoring. He never learns and ends up demoted or benched. It becomes a vicious cycle, especially when you have so many coaching changes that enforces that the problem is the coach - not the players.

Basically this. We need to totally eradicate the notion that Blue Jackets Hockey = Incompetence. As long as the players assume they know better than Howson and the coach, they will not work hard and will not trust the coach.

Doug19 05-01-2012 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacketsFanWest (Post 49096567)
Seriously? You don't know anything about him, but he sucks. :shakehead

Picard was rushed no doubt but he also destroyed his knee in the AHL playoffs and was never the same again.

He also got into the mindset of coming in and proving he could play physical and be a 4th liner - hit first, skate around like a one man wrecking crew and even fighting. He forgot he was an offensive threat in juniors and by the time he finally found his offensive game in the AHL, he just wasn't going to make the NHL with his knee injury.

Picard started out with an awkward skating style from being a former speed skater and just got pegged as being a guy whose skating will keep him out of the NHL. And he just couldn't score. He was so snakebit. He'd miss wide open nets.


One of the problems a lot of the prospects have is shining in the preseason when the games don't count, vets are going thru the motions and half the teams are AHLers and prospects. That sets them (and fans and the coaching staff and management) with high hopes. Picard, Brule, Filatov all have done very well in the preseason then crashed and burned in the regular season.

There's also the problem of getting youngsters who have very high opinions of themselves to listen when the team is losing and they think they know how to play hockey. On a team with a tradition of winning, the rookies aren't going to question what the veterans or coaching staff says.

On the Jackets say Rookie X gets demoted down to the 4th line for missing a defensive assignment. Instead of working his butt off to move back up in the lineup, he whines and complains that the coaching staff are idiots, he's right, they're wrong and he deserves more ice time and if he was playing with better linemates, he would be scoring. He never learns and ends up demoted or benched. It becomes a vicious cycle, especially when you have so many coaching changes that enforces that the problem is the coach - not the players.




I'd really like to know what people think the Jackets should have done with Filatov. Told him to stay in Russia without a transfer agreement and risk he would get locked into a long term contract? He COULDN'T be assigned to the OHL until November. He was scoring over a point a game average in the AHL by the time Sudbury arranged permission for Filatov to play there and it seemed silly.

A lot of what you say is baloney. It's amazing how other teams prospects shine through in a losing environment, but never ours. Yeah, it's never the situation they are placed in, it must always be there attitudes. Did you ever stop and think for a second that this team just doesn't understand how to handle a young player? How many times do we have to see young guys buried for one mistake? Who says they pout about it? There is a reason why this organization has a bad rep with prospects, I don't think we just got unlucky and drafted 6 or 7 bad attitudes in the first round. As for Filatov, he was poorly managed because A: our coach made an example out of him for no reason. He got called up he scored some goals and then he was buried because he wasn't playing his defensive assignment right. How about maybe allowing the kid to adjust his offensive game and then worry about the defensive side more in a few weeks? Maybe allow him to build some confidence. B: they didn't ***** slap his mother back to Russia. Filatov I think was as much his ego as anything, so I take back that statement. As for Picard like I said I don't know much about him, but based on his stats he sucked pretty damn bad. When I did see him he sucked pretty damn bad. Ugliest skater I've ever seen.

I'm all cool for holding the kids accountable, but lets hold the adults accountable to. If Ryan Johansen is sulking why doesn't the captain step up and tell him to get his act together? Adam Foote probably would have punched him in the face if he were doing that. Regardless I don't buy that every prospect has come in here and sulked because of a losing culture. Doesn't matter though, and I guess I don't really care, but let me know when we have a significant player develop for us, till then I'll keep thinking the system we have is inefficient while you can continue to believe that the players are a bunch of *****s.

BluejacketNut 05-01-2012 04:39 AM

If he looks like he did in training camp last year.....in the AHL to develop

EspenK 05-01-2012 06:06 AM

Who knows? Could be anywhere from the first line to the AHL.

I am of the belief if he isn't good enough to play in the top 2 lines then he should go to the A and play a lot.

Of course if he isn't good enough to play top 6 then why was he drafted#4? Especially when the top 6 will consist of Brass,Prospal,Umberger,Atkinson, and ? ? Not exactly a group to send fear into the hearts of opposing teams.

Matt 05-01-2012 08:20 AM

Have him start in Springfield and if he shows like Atkinson did, bring him up. If he has problems keep him down there

pete goegan 05-01-2012 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt (Post 49102809)
Have him start in Springfield and if he shows like Atkinson did, bring him up. If he has problems keep him down there

I don't think they'll plan to start him out in the AHL, not after a full year in Columbus. He could earn his way back to Springfield, should he start out poorly and clearly need further development; however, I would guess the plan will be for him to earn a top six role in the pre-season camp. His play should determine how it goes from there.

Samkow 05-01-2012 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacketsFanWest (Post 49096567)
Seriously? You don't know anything about him, but he sucks. :shakehead

Picard was rushed no doubt but he also destroyed his knee in the AHL playoffs and was never the same again.

He also got into the mindset of coming in and proving he could play physical and be a 4th liner - hit first, skate around like a one man wrecking crew and even fighting. He forgot he was an offensive threat in juniors and by the time he finally found his offensive game in the AHL, he just wasn't going to make the NHL with his knee injury.

Picard started out with an awkward skating style from being a former speed skater and just got pegged as being a guy whose skating will keep him out of the NHL. And he just couldn't score. He was so snakebit. He'd miss wide open nets.

Picard showed absolutely nothing resembling a physical game till after the knee injury. Pre-injury, he was essentially a very poor man's Jason Chimera (without all the off-sides and bad penalties). He just didn't do anything. I would say it was more of a case of not having any hands than being snake bitten.

For whatever reason, he developed his physical game after the knee injury (although Espen Knutsen was a better fighter than Picard). He might have stuck in the NHL if Dorsett and Boll hadn't come around at about the same time.

Kington87 05-02-2012 02:17 AM

So why exactly did we draft Picard so high if he is the 'ugliest skater ever' and why the hell did we advise him to start playing grinder? Is that not mismanagement to a tee?


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