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-   -   Abolition of the secondary assist? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1184425)

YippieKaey 05-05-2012 04:50 PM

Abolition of the secondary assist?
 
Might be other threads about this but i'll start a new one and take the risk of being moved.

Was watching some hockey today and realized that a lot of the secondary assists awarded to players today actually dont have a lot to do with creating goalscoring chances, they're more like neutral zone dump-ins or whatever. So how about it, does the secondary assist contribute in more ways than padding stats?

Ozz 05-05-2012 05:01 PM

Without those dump-ins the goal may not have happened. One could start the argument that the goal would have been scored if a different play occurred without the dump in, but one could also argue that the other play may have been broken up. You could go around all day with it.

YippieKaey 05-05-2012 05:14 PM

Yeah i know, the factual part of the discussion could go on and on. But let's say this supersniper player shows and single-handedly scores 2 goals per game. Anyone who feeds the puck to the guy who feeds him the puck would get a total of 164 assist in a season. He might even be a goalie, just seems a little odd. Primary assists are a different thing to me

mhkehoe 05-05-2012 05:53 PM

People who don't play hockey themselves suggest removing secondary assist. I don't think you have a good understanding of the game if you think this is a good idea.

YippieKaey 05-05-2012 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhkehoe (Post 49312985)
People who don't play hockey themselves suggest removing secondary assist. I don't think you have a good understanding of the game if you think this is a good idea.


Quite possible, would you care to explain to me why it should stay?

Dustin Peener 05-05-2012 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YippieKaey (Post 49310855)
a lot of the secondary assists awarded to players today actually dont have a lot to do with creating goalscoring chances

Then on the other hand a lot of them do.

Sometimes I'm playing NHL 12 and I will single handedly create a scoring chance but two other guys touch the puck before the guy on my team scores and I get the "third assist" so to speak, and I think aw man I don't get a point? But that was all me! :(

Ozz 05-05-2012 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YippieKaey (Post 49311705)
Yeah i know, the factual part of the discussion could go on and on. But let's say this supersniper player shows and single-handedly scores 2 goals per game. Anyone who feeds the puck to the guy who feeds him the puck would get a total of 164 assist in a season. He might even be a goalie, just seems a little odd. Primary assists are a different thing to me

The same could be said for primary assists too, though. Imagine a scenario where the secondary assist player stole the puck from an attacker, basically created all offense on his own, passed it to someone who gets a stick on it but otherwise doesn't control it, then the guy who ends up being the goal scorer shoots it in. That's just a scenario off the top of my head but this type of thing could happen all the time.

Sure you'll get a good portion of secondary assists that don't directly lead to a goal, but again that comes back to the argument of "what if he didn't feed it to the guy who made the primary assist?" The puck might never even reach the offensive zone without that seemingly-useless play.

YippieKaey 05-05-2012 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozz (Post 49315525)
The same could be said for primary assists too, though. Imagine a scenario where the secondary assist player stole the puck from an attacker, basically created all offense on his own, passed it to someone who gets a stick on it but otherwise doesn't control it, then the guy who ends up being the goal scorer shoots it in. That's just a scenario off the top of my head but this type of thing could happen all the time.

Sure you'll get a good portion of secondary assists that don't directly lead to a goal, but again that comes back to the argument of "what if he didn't feed it to the guy who made the primary assist?" The puck might never even reach the offensive zone without that seemingly-useless play.

Yeah some secondary assists are definitely important and "relevant", but in my opinion less than say 50 percent are( not based on fact just on watching a lot and playing a bit).

A well placed hit or a great forecheck/backcheck could also be a contributing factor in a goal, aswell as a good goalie screen but there's no points awarded for that. I realize this is very theoretical but i guess that's why most of us are here, to talk about and discuss the game we love:)

dwreckm 05-05-2012 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YippieKaey (Post 49316011)
A well placed hit or a great forecheck/backcheck could also be a contributing factor in a goal, aswell as a good goalie screen but there's no points awarded for that.

Actually, there kind of is, if you take into consideration the +/- stat. Players who are consistently creating an environment where there offense or defense can play effectively will have a good +/- stat.

As for the secondary assist, I like keeping it in, if only that it creates an environment where involving more team players gets more points spread around, and so defense and goalies can get on the points board more often. :)

CunniJA 05-05-2012 08:07 PM

No problem with the secondary assist at all. Allowing multiple assists runs through soccer and baseball as well and I think they've got it right. It's not like points are inflated these days anyway. In fact, quite the opposite.

YippieKaey 05-05-2012 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwreckm (Post 49316433)
Actually, there kind of is, if you take into consideration the +/- stat. Players who are consistently creating an environment where there offense or defense can play effectively will have a good +/- stat.

As for the secondary assist, I like keeping it in, if only that it creates an environment where involving more team players gets more points spread around, and so defense and goalies can get on the points board more often. :)

Well yeah true about +/- but let's say you have two Gretzky's and two Bobby Orr's on a line with Charlie The plumber. Charlies stat's will look pretty damn good due to secondary assists and +/-. It just doesn't feel like an individual stat( yeah i know goalscoring is a team effort but you see my point?)

CunniJA 05-05-2012 08:24 PM

We could come up with examples of secondary assists that weren't really deserved all day if we wanted. We can certainly find pluses that weren't truly earned either. But, at the same time, we could find minuses that people didn't deserve or even a few "tertiary" assists that could have been deserved. No stat is completely individual anyway except for maybe performance in the shootout/penalties because any stat from GAA, +/-, or assists all the way to even shooting percentage or blocked shots has something to do with the other people around you (for or against you). So, we need some kind of standard and having touched the puck and gotten it to the goal scorer is a pretty decent standard.

JoeCool16 05-05-2012 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YippieKaey (Post 49316883)
Well yeah true about +/- but let's say you have two Gretzky's and two Bobby Orr's on a line with Charlie The plumber. Charlies stat's will look pretty damn good due to secondary assists and +/-. It just doesn't feel like an individual stat( yeah i know goalscoring is a team effort but you see my point?)

Submitted for your consideration, Dave Semenko.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=4872

Played, at times, on a line with Jari Kurri and Wayne Gretzky. Kurri was one of the best players of the 80s and Gretzky was one of the greatest of all time. And yet Dave Semenko peaked out at 27 points. I don't think that the proverbial tag-a-long or Charlie the Plumber is going to get a free ride playing with the best.

mhkehoe 05-05-2012 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YippieKaey (Post 49314529)
Quite possible, would you care to explain to me why it should stay?

It gives credit to players that make the smart defensive or neutral zone plays leading to the goal. There is typical a lot more to the play than the goal and the pass that led to it, and having that additional point can give you hints in the box score of those contributing factors.

Hockey is rarely as simple as 1 player entering the zone, passing, and that player scoring. The player who did the work in the neutral zone and cleared the blue line played an important part in the creation of the scoring chance.

I think your worry is the player with the secondary didn't actually do much on the play, but it would be unreasonable for refs to determine the amount a player contributes to a play when assigning assists and more often than not it is a factor, so we lean towards assuming that secondary assist played a role in the goal.

YippieKaey 05-05-2012 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhkehoe (Post 49317241)
It gives credit to players that make the smart defensive or neutral zone plays leading to the goal. There is typical a lot more to the play than the goal and the pass that led to it, and having that additional point can give you hints in the box score of those contributing factors.

Hockey is rarely as simple as 1 player entering the zone, passing, and that player scoring. The player who did the work in the neutral zone and cleared the blue line played an important part in the creation of the scoring chance.

I think your worry is the player with the secondary didn't actually do much on the play, but it would be unreasonable for refs to determine the amount a player contributes to a play when assigning assists and more often than not it is a factor, so we lean towards assuming that secondary assist played a role in the goal.

You are correct about my "worry" and i also agree about the ref part, impossible for them to decide. BUT: Someone pointed out that the +/- stat reflect on some of the same things that the secondary assist does, so why not just settle for that stat?

Reread your post, i do believe you're right and i concede. It should stay,i'll have to learn to live with the statistical inaccuracies that might occur;)

Wilch 05-05-2012 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YippieKaey (Post 49316883)
Well yeah true about +/- but let's say you have two Gretzky's and two Bobby Orr's on a line with Charlie The plumber. Charlies stat's will look pretty damn good due to secondary assists and +/-. It just doesn't feel like an individual stat( yeah i know goalscoring is a team effort but you see my point?)

I played on a line with players a million time better than me, and I find it's hard to keep up with what they're doing at times. They'll throw some crazy passes that's tough to catch, and are too fast to catch up to. I do get more chances with them, the occasional tap-ins, open slot shots, etc. But playing with them won't boost my stats -that- significantly. I'd say over the course of a 30 game season, playing with those guys I'd get an extra 5-6 points at most.


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