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-   -   Speculation: The Official Jordan Staal Thread, Part III (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1187537)

End of Line 05-09-2012 11:33 PM

The Official Jordan Staal Thread, Part III
 
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SEALBound 05-09-2012 11:55 PM

Keep him!

Staal-Sid-Dupuis
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal

FTMFW!

Milliardo 05-10-2012 02:42 AM

Keep him. There is no deal out there that would make us better that another team would accept.

BrookswasHere44 05-10-2012 04:23 AM

Doesnt he not wanna play wing?

Captain Hook 05-10-2012 04:29 AM

I will never get the move him to the wing argument. He hasn't shown that he can just move over there and be a stud winger. Maybe he can or maybe he can't. Why even waste time trying to figure that out when you can just get a stud winger for him in trade? Not saying I want him traded. I'd keep him if the price is right, but he'd be kept to maintain the 3 center model and maybe some spot duty on the wing or 2nd line C when Malkin moves over to the wing for a shift or two. Otherwise I'd trade him for a winger or a big, young, all around D-Man.

TravisUlrich 05-10-2012 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Hook (Post 49530551)
I will never get the move him to the wing argument. He hasn't shown that he can just move over there and be a stud winger. Maybe he can or maybe he can't. Why even waste time trying to figure that out when you can just get a stud winger for him in trade? Not saying I want him traded. I'd keep him if the price is right, but he'd be kept to maintain the 3 center model and maybe some spot duty on the wing or 2nd line C when Malkin moves over to the wing for a shift or two. Otherwise I'd trade him for a winger or a big, young, all around D-Man.

Pretty much any C in the NHL can play well on the wing. Team Canada doesn't pick the 4 best C's, the 4 best RW's, and the 4 best LW's. They'll probably have like 8 natural centermen and then 4 natural wingers only because they're all better than the 9th best Canadian centerman.

Staal would be great on the wing. The only thing I wonder is if I'd rather have him be the 2nd line center with Malkin on his wing. And moving Staal up to the Top 6 will finally allow us to develop Dustin Jeffrey.

Randy Butternubs 05-10-2012 06:06 AM

Keep him. We need an elite two-way forward.

JTG 05-10-2012 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrookswasHere44 (Post 49530537)
Doesnt he not wanna play wing?

I think he would play wing, but you have to be creative about how you use him. Having him play wing in the defensive zone is a waste of a Selke caliber forward.

Ugene Malkin 05-10-2012 06:44 AM

I'd rather keep'em.

There's nothing wrong with sharing the center position on one or both of the top 2 lines.

I think the most obvious issue is getting Jordan better quality offensive minutes. He has proven he's skilled enough to be a part of a top PP unit.

PP Unit #1A:

Kunitz, Staal, Crosby

PP Unit #1B:

Sullivan, Malkin, Neal

There's no issue with scoring goals with this team 5 on 5, but the PP goes stagnant when you put both Geno and Sid on the same PP due to over crowding the RW boards. They also pass up a ton of shots with over passing making sure each has touched the puck. No one should ever pass up shooting the puck as we have seen over the "years". Two units not only allows for better PP cycle, it allows Staal better quality offensive minutes, fresher players for shifts after the PP keeping a top line at close to 100 as possible. Not only for that part of the game, but for the entirety of the game, "60:00's".

They always get into times when the top PP is the one who created the penalty call and are tired from being on the ice leading to it. This allows always having a top PP unit that's fresh. These guys have to understand it's a team effort that'll win them more with out as much struggling getting through each game. With this team its talent supports that theory. They really shouldn't have to struggle the amount they do.

The only time they should be bunched up is if they are trailing by 2 or more goals.

Captain Hook 05-10-2012 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TravisUlrich (Post 49530651)
Pretty much any C in the NHL can play well on the wing. Team Canada doesn't pick the 4 best C's, the 4 best RW's, and the 4 best LW's. They'll probably have like 8 natural centermen and then 4 natural wingers only because they're all better than the 9th best Canadian centerman.

Staal would be great on the wing. The only thing I wonder is if I'd rather have him be the 2nd line center with Malkin on his wing. And moving Staal up to the Top 6 will finally allow us to develop Dustin Jeffrey.

We just disagree. I don't buy that every center can be a good winger or that Staal can just move over and be a great winger. Maybe a lot of them can, but not all. We surely would have used him much more on the wing in his career if he could actually do that. He just hasn't shown much on the wing outside of one stretch of games as a rookie close to 6 years ago.

Anyway, It still makes no sense to play him or Malkin on the wing. I'd rather just take the stud winger we'd likely get in trade for Staal in that scenario. I'd actually prefer to keep the 3 center model going, but that may not be possible financially.

KIRK 05-10-2012 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Hook (Post 49530551)
I will never get the move him to the wing argument. He hasn't shown that he can just move over there and be a stud winger. Maybe he can or maybe he can't. Why even waste time trying to figure that out when you can just get a stud winger for him in trade? Not saying I want him traded. I'd keep him if the price is right, but he'd be kept to maintain the 3 center model and maybe some spot duty on the wing or 2nd line C when Malkin moves over to the wing for a shift or two. Otherwise I'd trade him for a winger or a big, young, all around D-Man.

Since his rookie year, how many shifts has Staal taken on Malkin's LW?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Hook (Post 49533293)
We just disagree. I don't buy that every center can be a good winger or that Staal can just move over and be a great winger. Maybe a lot of them can, but not all. We surely would have used him much more on the wing in his career if he could actually do that. He just hasn't shown much on the wing outside of one stretch of games as a rookie close to 6 years ago.

Anyway, It still makes no sense to play him or Malkin on the wing. I'd rather just take the stud winger we'd likely get in trade for Staal in that scenario. I'd actually prefer to keep the 3 center model going, but that may not be possible financially.

See my question above. The answer is NONE. And, what's really sad in all of these so and so plays with so and so is that the only combination that hasn't actually been tried since 2007 is the one that was the best out of all the two out of Sid, Geno, and Staal combos . . . namely, Geno at C and Staal on his LW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTG (Post 49531235)
I think he would play wing, but you have to be creative about how you use him. Having him play wing in the defensive zone is a waste of a Selke caliber forward.

The answer is with Malkin and you let them work it out like Malkin and Talbot worked it out. It's not natural to have two guys working as hybrid C/W. But, sometimes it's workable-- even more than that-- when you've got two guys who have a natural chemistry together. That's always been Malkin and Staal. I prefer more of Malkin at C (and think the combo works better that way), but I think the guy with the perfect answer about the whole 'how to use Staal' question was Staal himself, when he said he didn't know, ask the coaches. The real answer is that Bylsma doesn't have a ******* clue. If he did, Staal would've been tried with Malkin and Neal-- for even one shift-- after Sid came back.

Zirakzigil 05-10-2012 08:35 AM

I will enjoy the day he is signed to a new contract so we can forget all of this trading him talk. Hes one of the best forwards on this team and has proven that he can contribute both as an elite defensive center and a scoring forward. Cant ask for anymore from a player.

KIRK 05-10-2012 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin (Post 49531519)
I'd rather keep'em.

There's nothing wrong with sharing the center position on one or both of the top 2 lines.

I think the most obvious issue is getting Jordan better quality offensive minutes. He has proven he's skilled enough to be a part of a top PP unit.

PP Unit #1A:

Kunitz, Staal, Crosby

PP Unit #1B:

Sullivan, Malkin, Neal

There's no issue with scoring goals with this team 5 on 5, but the PP goes stagnant when you put both Geno and Sid on the same PP due to over crowding the RW boards. They also pass up a ton of shots with over passing making sure each has touched the puck. No one should ever pass up shooting the puck as we have seen over the "years". Two units not only allows for better PP cycle, it allows Staal better quality offensive minutes, fresher players for shifts after the PP keeping a top line at close to 100 as possible. Not only for that part of the game, but for the entirety of the game, "60:00's".

They always get into times when the top PP is the one who created the penalty call and are tired from being on the ice leading to it. This allows always having a top PP unit that's fresh. These guys have to understand it's a team effort that'll win them more with out as much struggling getting through each game. With this team its talent supports that theory. They really shouldn't have to struggle the amount they do.

The only time they should be bunched up is if they are trailing by 2 or more goals.

No offense, but I'm not going to view Sullivan being back as a good thing. If he is, then it means he's a top six guy again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zirakzigil (Post 49533475)
I will enjoy the day he is signed to a new contract so we can forget all of this trading him talk. Hes one of the best forwards on this team and has proven that he can contribute both as an elite defensive center and a scoring forward. Cant ask for anymore from a player.

You mean the 5.5M per year contract that so many people here think is coming?

Zirakzigil 05-10-2012 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIRK (Post 49533565)
You mean the 5.5M per year contract that so many people here think is coming?

I would gladly pay Staal 5.5mil a year. I hope that because of the last contract he got that he would take slightly less then that and sign for around 5.0mil but 5.5 is good value for what he brings to this team.

Captain Hook 05-10-2012 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zirakzigil (Post 49533475)
I will enjoy the day he is signed to a new contract so we can forget all of this trading him talk. Hes one of the best forwards on this team and has proven that he can contribute both as an elite defensive center and a scoring forward. Cant ask for anymore from a player.

I do have a feeling that we, the media and everyone else will speculate about him leaving and then Shero will work his magic to keep him around. He always seems to.

I'm not sure that's the best thing for him or us though. He has clearly outgrown his 3rd line center role and I don't see an opportunity to move up the depth chart at his natural position. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to move the NHL's best center (Crosby) or the likely league MVP and scoring champ (Malkin) to the wing.

KIRK 05-10-2012 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zirakzigil (Post 49533657)
I would gladly pay Staal 5.5mil a year. I hope that because of the last contract he got that he would take slightly less then that and sign for around 5.0mil but 5.5 is good value for what he brings to this team.

Staal taking 5.5M would be a bigger discount, in terms of percentage and even total dollars per year, than what Sid and Geno discounted their last deals. His fair market value is 7M, maybe more, even I'm afraid, after the new CBA. I would love to be 100% wrong on this one, because if Staal signs for 5.5M or frankly anything under the low 6M range this summer, I'll be absolutely stunned. 6.25 would be a healthy discount along the lines, proportionally, of what Sid, Geno, Orpik, et al did. 5.5M would be bending over for Ray.

Zirakzigil 05-10-2012 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Hook (Post 49533719)
I do have a feeling that we, the media and everyone else will speculate about him leaving and then Shero will work his magic to keep him around. He always seems to.

I'm not sure that's the best thing for him or us though. He has clearly outgrown his 3rd line center role and I don't see an opportunity to move up the depth chart at his natural position. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to move the NHL's best center (Crosby) or the likely league MVP and scoring champ (Malkin) to the wing.

So you give him more powerplay time and start double shifting him with Malkin/Neal and Crosby. Let him grind it out with other teams top players at center and give him a couple shifts a period on the wing for mix things up offensively. Staal has said he wants a bigger role on the team, theres no reason why that cant happen.

KIRK 05-10-2012 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zirakzigil (Post 49534141)
So you give him more powerplay time and start double shifting him with Malkin/Neal and Crosby. Let him grind it out with other teams top players at center and give him a couple shifts a period on the wing for mix things up offensively. Staal has said he wants a bigger role on the team, theres no reason why that cant happen.

Dan Bylsma is one. Don't care what he promises. There's what he promises (or suggests will be different) and then what actually happens.

Captain Hook 05-10-2012 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zirakzigil (Post 49534141)
So you give him more powerplay time and start double shifting him with Malkin/Neal and Crosby. Let him grind it out with other teams top players at center and give him a couple shifts a period on the wing for mix things up offensively. Staal has said he wants a bigger role on the team, theres no reason why that cant happen.

I think you just nailed what Ray Shero's sales pitch to him will be in July.

I personally think he stays, but he knows he can get more money and a legit 1st or more likely 2nd line C role somewhere else. The Pens can promise him a different role, but that doesn't mean he'll buy it. He's consistently been stuck behind the other two his whole career. I'm sure he's going to be skeptical that things are going to be different.

Zirakzigil 05-10-2012 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIRK (Post 49534039)
Staal taking 5.5M would be a bigger discount, in terms of percentage and even total dollars per year, than what Sid and Geno discounted their last deals. His fair market value is 7M, maybe more, even I'm afraid, after the new CBA. I would love to be 100% wrong on this one, because if Staal signs for 5.5M or frankly anything under the low 6M range this summer, I'll be absolutely stunned. 6.25 would be a healthy discount along the lines, proportionally, of what Sid, Geno, Orpik, et al did. 5.5M would be bending over for Ray.

Staal is not a 7mil player. Maybe if he hit UFA but even then hes not. He is not close to the Stamkos, Thornton, Backstrom range of center. His value is closer to Kesler. The CBA will almost certainly drop the salary cap and with it probably come with another salary rollback. Even a player like Mike Richards, who in my opinion is a better all round center at this time then Staal, is only making 5.7mil in his contract.

Captain Hook 05-10-2012 09:14 AM

I don't think it matters if he's really a 7 million dollar player or not. Someone will pay him crazy money like that. I have little doubt. The crazy UFA market got Colby Armstrong 3 million/per a while back. Many other examples of this too.

Mr Jiggyfly 05-10-2012 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Hook (Post 49533719)
I do have a feeling that we, the media and everyone else will speculate about him leaving and then Shero will work his magic to keep him around. He always seems to.

I'm not sure that's the best thing for him or us though. He has clearly outgrown his 3rd line center role and I don't see an opportunity to move up the depth chart at his natural position. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to move the NHL's best center (Crosby) or the likely league MVP and scoring champ (Malkin) to the wing.

Ya it is kind of obvious...

Staal is not a winger and of the big three, i am beyond certain he is the one who would struggle the most at wing.

If he comes back, then Malkin has to go to wing. There is simply no other way to utilize these three in a better manner.

For the people who want Staal back, to pay him what it will take to retain him, you better accept that means Malkin to wing. Because you don't pay a guy like Staal that kind of money to play wing.

Malkin is a team guy, so he will do it, and excel as I always said. Will he be pissed to a certain extent? Maybe...

You cant avoid the reality that for Staal to be in the top 6, someone has to play wing and Staal is the worst fit...

Captain Hook 05-10-2012 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly (Post 49534739)
Ya it is kind of obvious...

Staal is not a winger and of the big three, i am beyond certain he is the one who would struggle the most at wing.

If he comes back, then Malkin has to go to wing. There is simply no other way to utilize these three in a better manner.

For the people who want Staal back, to pay him what it will take to retain him, you better accept that means Malkin to wing. Because you don't pay a guy like Staal that kind of money to play wing.

Malkin is a team guy, so he will do it, and excel as I always said. Will he be pissed to a certain extent? Maybe...

You cant avoid the reality that for Staal to be in the top 6, someone has to play wing and Staal is the worst fit...

Agreed.

Zirakzigil 05-10-2012 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Hook (Post 49534399)
I think you just nailed what Ray Shero's sales pitch to him will be in July.

I personally think he stays, but he knows he can get more money and a legit 1st or more likely 2nd line C role somewhere else. The Pens can promise him a different role, but that doesn't mean he'll buy it. He's consistently been stuck behind the other two his whole career. I'm sure he's going to be skeptical that things are going to be different.

He can walk/get traded and possibly be a #1 center somewhere else. But that doesnt mean hes going to go to a good team. This is all going to come down to what Staal wants in his future. If hes only going for money he will get traded and sign some stupid contract in the 6-7mil range on another team and probably not win another cup. If he wants to be on a winning team then he knows hes going to have to take something in the Kesler range. Staal may be good enough to be an elite defensive center capable of putting up 80-100 points a season. Or he could sink on a different team and never do anything the rest of his career.

Ogrezilla 05-10-2012 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zirakzigil (Post 49533475)
I will enjoy the day he is signed to a new contract so we can forget all of this trading him talk. Hes one of the best forwards on this team and has proven that he can contribute both as an elite defensive center and a scoring forward. Cant ask for anymore from a player.

He has proven that he can contribute either as an elite defensive center or a scoring forward. he's never shown that he can do both at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zirakzigil (Post 49533657)
I would gladly pay Staal 5.5mil a year. I hope that because of the last contract he got that he would take slightly less then that and sign for around 5.0mil but 5.5 is good value for what he brings to this team.

5.5 would be an absolute steal. Every cent he gets below 6.5 is him taking a discount on what he'll get as a UFA. If we can't get a discount, I don't know if we can keep him. You can't pay 6 mil for a 3rd line center and I don't think he's a 6 million dollar winger. That's something that would have been nice to test a little more before we got to this situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zirakzigil (Post 49534581)
Staal is not a 7mil player. Maybe if he hit UFA but even then hes not. He is not close to the Stamkos, Thornton, Backstrom range of center. His value is closer to Kesler. The CBA will almost certainly drop the salary cap and with it probably come with another salary rollback. Even a player like Mike Richards, who in my opinion is a better all round center at this time then Staal, is only making 5.7mil in his contract.

I agree that he isn't on the level with those guys, but contract inflation has been pretty insane the last few years. Based on the signings of the last two years Staal could get 6.5 from some good teams and he could probably break 7 from a team that wants him to be their premiere center. Though a change to the CBA could change things.


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