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-   -   Trade our core: Price, PK, Patches (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1189301)

macavoy 05-13-2012 07:55 AM

Trade our core: Price, PK, Patches
 
Price, Subban and Pacioretty are pretty much our best players going forward and they are our core. However, being totally realistic, I don't see us giving them enough support in the next 2-4 years when they are in their prime for us to win it all. Looking at the teams that have won it all, most have had considerable playoff success in the year before they won it all or steadily built up to that.

I honestly can't see us getting enough pieces with the way free agency is so tight these days. Even if Grigs, Galy or TT pan out perfectly, we'd still need another big piece imo. Which if coming from the draft, means we'd either have to tank again next year, which still means we are looking at 3-4 years away at which time our core is getting near the end of their prime.

I think the sad reality is we need to start over. I'm not saying tank, I'm saying restock the prospects. The pieces that we could get for Price would be at an all time high right now. Same thing with Subban and Patches.

If we can get 1-2 blue chip prospects and a pick for each of them. We'd be legit contenders in 3-4 years. I honestly don't see us being legit contenders in 3-4 years if we keep our core.

I have faith in Bergevin but I think the window to win with Price, Patches and Pleks is closing. In 4 years, they will have to be the supporting pieces of the puzzle, not the core. I don't see us getting a good enough new core in 4 years without trading them.

It wouldn't be popular but I think if the return on Price, Patches & Subban were great, people wouldn't hate it. Tanking isn't our answer. But we can learn from what Philly did even if they didn't win the cup, their team got younger and better. We need to do the same.

If you look at the teams that won the cup, they had a young core. Boston's core is a lot older this past year but I think they'll have a new window in two years when Seguin & company are ready. We don't have that kind of talent waiting in the back room. Chicago, Pittsburg, Anaheim, they all won when their core was relatively young. I think we've missed that window with our core.

Pierre Dagenais 05-13-2012 08:08 AM

In 3-4 years, those 3 players will be in their primes. Price will be 28, PK and Patches around 26. Terrible idea.

Dirty Danglez 05-13-2012 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macavoy (Post 49639991)
Price, Subban and Pacioretty are pretty much our best players going forward and they are our core. However, being totally realistic, I don't see us giving them enough support in the next 2-4 years when they are in their prime for us to win it all. Looking at the teams that have won it all, most have had considerable playoff success in the year before they won it all or steadily built up to that.

I honestly can't see us getting enough pieces with the way free agency is so tight these days. Even if Grigs, Galy or TT pan out perfectly, we'd still need another big piece imo. Which if coming from the draft, means we'd either have to tank again next year, which still means we are looking at 3-4 years away at which time our core is getting near the end of their prime.

I think the sad reality is we need to start over. I'm not saying tank, I'm saying restock the prospects. The pieces that we could get for Price would be at an all time high right now. Same thing with Subban and Patches.

If we can get 1-2 blue chip prospects and a pick for each of them. We'd be legit contenders in 3-4 years. I honestly don't see us being legit contenders in 3-4 years if we keep our core.

I have faith in Bergevin but I think the window to win with Price, Patches and Pleks is closing. In 4 years, they will have to be the supporting pieces of the puzzle, not the core. I don't see us getting a good enough new core in 4 years without trading them.

It wouldn't be popular but I think if the return on Price, Patches & Subban were great, people wouldn't hate it. Tanking isn't our answer. But we can learn from what Philly did even if they didn't win the cup, their team got younger and better. We need to do the same.

If you look at the teams that won the cup, they had a young core. Boston's core is a lot older this past year but I think they'll have a new window in two years when Seguin & company are ready. We don't have that kind of talent waiting in the back room. Chicago, Pittsburg, Anaheim, they all won when their core was relatively young. I think we've missed that window with our core.

In 4 years price will be 28 ( in his prime, patches and subban will be 27 (in their prime). Why trade known talent ( that will get better as they are still young) for prospects who might possibly be as good?

coolasprICE 05-13-2012 08:11 AM

very few gm's would have the balls to trade a talented popular young core.

imagine, if you were the GM... the goal outside of building a winner is to make moves so even if they don't pan out he still has a chance of keeping the job.

If this doesn't turn out positive , he basically loses his job.

Now, trading Plekanec's, who has good value, but is in his prime NOW, is a different scenario... with much less risk to the GM in the event it doesn't turn out..

FiveForDrawingBlood 05-13-2012 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macavoy (Post 49639991)
Price, Subban and Pacioretty are pretty much our best players going forward and they are our core. However, being totally realistic, I don't see us giving them enough support in the next 2-4 years when they are in their prime for us to win it all. Looking at the teams that have won it all, most have had considerable playoff success in the year before they won it all or steadily built up to that.

I honestly can't see us getting enough pieces with the way free agency is so tight these days. Even if Grigs, Galy or TT pan out perfectly, we'd still need another big piece imo. Which if coming from the draft, means we'd either have to tank again next year, which still means we are looking at 3-4 years away at which time our core is getting near the end of their prime.

I think the sad reality is we need to start over. I'm not saying tank, I'm saying restock the prospects. The pieces that we could get for Price would be at an all time high right now. Same thing with Subban and Patches.

If we can get 1-2 blue chip prospects and a pick for each of them. We'd be legit contenders in 3-4 years. I honestly don't see us being legit contenders in 3-4 years if we keep our core.

I have faith in Bergevin but I think the window to win with Price, Patches and Pleks is closing. In 4 years, they will have to be the supporting pieces of the puzzle, not the core. I don't see us getting a good enough new core in 4 years without trading them.

It wouldn't be popular but I think if the return on Price, Patches & Subban were great, people wouldn't hate it. Tanking isn't our answer. But we can learn from what Philly did even if they didn't win the cup, their team got younger and better. We need to do the same.

If you look at the teams that won the cup, they had a young core. Boston's core is a lot older this past year but I think they'll have a new window in two years when Seguin & company are ready. We don't have that kind of talent waiting in the back room. Chicago, Pittsburg, Anaheim, they all won when their core was relatively young. I think we've missed that window with our core.

I totally disagree...Price is a franchise goalie they are hard to come by. Remember the defense he played behind this year? Subban, Gorges, Elemin, Markov with some former first round picks in the system our D should be in good shape. We do need a #1 center but this draft should take care of that. Our first line of Patches/Cole/Des is fine. If we draft a top center Plekanec as 3 center makes team deep down the middle, a core position. Albeit may not be this coming year but will be the next at latest. We do need a winger to play with Gionta, Leblanc could be the answer if he steps up a notch, Gallagher could be long term solution. The Eller/Blunder makes a great energy line. Next year is projected one of best drafts ever and we have some extra picks....Gomeez is likely done with team. We have some cap space to add a big name player near the deadline. Things look up to me

onemorecup* 05-13-2012 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FiveForDrawingBlood (Post 49640247)
I totally disagree...Price is a franchise goalie they are hard to come by. Remember the defense he played behind this year? Subban, Gorges, Elemin, Markov with some former first round picks in the system our D should be in good shape. We do need a #1 center but this draft should take care of that. Our first line of Patches/Cole/Des is fine. If we draft a top center Plekanec as 3 center makes team deep down the middle, a core position. Albeit may not be this coming year but will be the next at latest. We do need a winger to play with Gionta, Leblanc could be the answer if he steps up a notch, Gallagher could be long term solution. The Eller/Blunder makes a great energy line. Next year is projected one of best drafts ever and we have some extra picks....Gomeez is likely done with team. We have some cap space to add a big name player near the deadline. Things look up to me

we have no front liners period , Cole had a career year at 33 , the midget is a finesse center who can only put up points on a **** team ike us , on any other top team he is on the farm , he is not a core player

Max is the only one maybe one day becomes a legit front liner

a front liner is a Sedin , Malkin , etc.... not a Cole by default when he plays on a top line

everyone is for sale bro , if i get offered Malkin for PK ...DONE DEAL

they key to this team is how Bergy decides to play Eller and Leblanc

Louis cant play a third line role , move him if you have no intention to play him top 6 minutes while he still has value

le_sean 05-13-2012 08:30 AM

What is with this ****ing fest with Philly? They won one ******* round then lost in 5 games.

Garbage defence and garbage goaltending. Sounds like a real winner to me.

Your idea is terrible.

SnapVirus 05-13-2012 08:33 AM

Thread owner is the Drunk Smurf.

The Gal Pals 05-13-2012 08:37 AM

This makes no sense. Those guys are basically irreplaceable. Anything you get in return will not fill their void. Also Bergevin would never do this in his first year as GM. He'd never ever be given another job in the NHL again.


To the OP, I don't see how you can say we missed our window with these guys. The core in Detroit was much older than our guys when they won the Cup in 2008. They had old man Osgood in nets and Lidstrom was in his late 30s...

Physical HABuse 05-13-2012 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolasprICE (Post 49640191)
very few gm's would have the balls to trade a talented popular young core.

imagine, if you were the GM... the goal outside of building a winner is to make moves so even if they don't pan out he still has a chance of keeping the job.

If this doesn't turn out positive , he basically loses his job.

Now, trading Plekanec's, who has good value, but is in his prime NOW, is a different scenario... with much less risk to the GM in the event it doesn't turn out..


Gauthier might have if he stayed. Only he's got balls.....well, balls for brains anyway.

Subban76 05-13-2012 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macavoy (Post 49639991)
Price, Subban and Pacioretty are pretty much our best players going forward and they are our core. However, being totally realistic, I don't see us giving them enough support in the next 2-4 years when they are in their prime for us to win it all. Looking at the teams that have won it all, most have had considerable playoff success in the year before they won it all or steadily built up to that.

I honestly can't see us getting enough pieces with the way free agency is so tight these days. Even if Grigs, Galy or TT pan out perfectly, we'd still need another big piece imo. Which if coming from the draft, means we'd either have to tank again next year, which still means we are looking at 3-4 years away at which time our core is getting near the end of their prime.

I think the sad reality is we need to start over. I'm not saying tank, I'm saying restock the prospects. The pieces that we could get for Price would be at an all time high right now. Same thing with Subban and Patches.

If we can get 1-2 blue chip prospects and a pick for each of them. We'd be legit contenders in 3-4 years. I honestly don't see us being legit contenders in 3-4 years if we keep our core.

I have faith in Bergevin but I think the window to win with Price, Patches and Pleks is closing. In 4 years, they will have to be the supporting pieces of the puzzle, not the core. I don't see us getting a good enough new core in 4 years without trading them.

It wouldn't be popular but I think if the return on Price, Patches & Subban were great, people wouldn't hate it. Tanking isn't our answer. But we can learn from what Philly did even if they didn't win the cup, their team got younger and better. We need to do the same.

If you look at the teams that won the cup, they had a young core. Boston's core is a lot older this past year but I think they'll have a new window in two years when Seguin & company are ready. We don't have that kind of talent waiting in the back room. Chicago, Pittsburg, Anaheim, they all won when their core was relatively young. I think we've missed that window with our core.

Terrible idea. Those 3 guys will be good for another 10 years about. Plenty of time to support them. Imagine if Detroit had done that with Yzerman.

Besides, I guess you missed the part where Bergevin said he will build, not rebuild the Habs. Those 3 guys are staying put.

odishabs 05-13-2012 08:44 AM

awful

Schooner Guy 05-13-2012 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macavoy (Post 49639991)
Price, Subban and Pacioretty are pretty much our best players going forward and they are our core. However, being totally realistic, I don't see us giving them enough support in the next 2-4 years when they are in their prime for us to win it all. Looking at the teams that have won it all, most have had considerable playoff success in the year before they won it all or steadily built up to that.

I honestly can't see us getting enough pieces with the way free agency is so tight these days. Even if Grigs, Galy or TT pan out perfectly, we'd still need another big piece imo. Which if coming from the draft, means we'd either have to tank again next year, which still means we are looking at 3-4 years away at which time our core is getting near the end of their prime.

I think the sad reality is we need to start over. I'm not saying tank, I'm saying restock the prospects. The pieces that we could get for Price would be at an all time high right now. Same thing with Subban and Patches.

If we can get 1-2 blue chip prospects and a pick for each of them. We'd be legit contenders in 3-4 years. I honestly don't see us being legit contenders in 3-4 years if we keep our core.

I have faith in Bergevin but I think the window to win with Price, Patches and Pleks is closing. In 4 years, they will have to be the supporting pieces of the puzzle, not the core. I don't see us getting a good enough new core in 4 years without trading them.

It wouldn't be popular but I think if the return on Price, Patches & Subban were great, people wouldn't hate it. Tanking isn't our answer. But we can learn from what Philly did even if they didn't win the cup, their team got younger and better. We need to do the same.

If you look at the teams that won the cup, they had a young core. Boston's core is a lot older this past year but I think they'll have a new window in two years when Seguin & company are ready. We don't have that kind of talent waiting in the back room. Chicago, Pittsburg, Anaheim, they all won when their core was relatively young. I think we've missed that window with our core.

I'm going to assume you're under the influence. Trading those 3 would set us back a decade, losing could become contagious and no player would ever want to be part of our organization again. We'd be a laughing stock much like the Islanders.

Subban76 05-13-2012 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onemorecup (Post 49640391)
we have no front liners period , Cole had a career year at 33 , the midget is a finesse center who can only put up points on a S H I T team ike us , on any other top team he is on the farm , he is not a core player

Max is the only one maybe one day becomes a legit front liner

a front liner is a Sedin , Malkin , etc.... not a Cole by default when he plays on a top line

everyone is for sale bro , if i get offered Malkin for PK ...DONE DEAL

they key to this team is how Bergy decides to play Eller and Leblanc

Louis cant play a third line role , move him if you have no intention to play him top 6 minutes while he still has value

:shakehead

The 4 reamining teams are full of front liners like Malkin and Sedin :shakehead

Offense wins it all, defense is for losers :help:

macavoy 05-13-2012 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez (Post 49640185)
In 4 years price will be 28 ( in his prime, patches and subban will be 27 (in their prime). Why trade known talent ( that will get better as they are still young) for prospects who might possibly be as good?

28 is now past prime in the new NHL. People's prime are 22-26. Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Toews, Kane's best years will all be in that range.

I agree that Price, Subban and Patches will have a slightly later prime than most of them but the problem will be their contracts at that point. Teams have won cups when their prime players are still on RFA contracts. Then when on to have cap troubles once their core was making the big money.

I can't see us winning with our core being paid top dollar when almost everyr team won with their core making RFA money.


Quote:

Originally Posted by airic000 (Post 49640507)
To the OP, I don't see how you can say we missed our window with these guys. The core in Detroit was much older than our guys when they won the Cup in 2008. They had old man Osgood in nets and Lidstrom was in his late 30s...

Detroit is the exception to the rule and they are seeing now that their core is way too old. They also need a retooling to get younger. They have been out of it for the past couple of years early for a reason.

Habs 1909 05-13-2012 09:01 AM

It's a long offseason.

Subban76 05-13-2012 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macavoy (Post 49640855)
28 is now past prime in the new NHL. People's prime are 22-26. Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Toews, Kane's best years will all be in that range.

I agree that Price, Subban and Patches will have a slightly later prime than most of them but the problem will be their contracts at that point. Teams have won cups when their prime players are still on RFA contracts. Then when on to have cap troubles once their core was making the big money.

I can't see us winning with our core being paid top dollar when almost everyr team won with their core making RFA money.




Detroit is the exception to the rule and they are seeing now that their core is way too old. They also need a retooling to get younger. They have been out of it for the past couple of years early for a reason.

Not at all. Not in terms of talent and on ice production. Especially not at goalie and Defense. They just cost more because because UFAs are 27 now.

Freaky Habs Fan 05-13-2012 09:03 AM

Macavoy, you do realize that to get to the same point where we are now in 4 years, we'd have to get at least 3 stars in return of Price, Subban and Pacioretty... And there's no guarantee. Sure we could receive good young players, which would be a bad return giving the age of the trio you're talking about.

Also, there's no guarantee trading them will assure us of a bottom 3 pick.

It's a really bad idea...

JGRB 05-13-2012 09:05 AM

Pet peeve: Why do you ppl quote the OP? Its to be assumed thats who you are addressing!

On the subject... This has to be one of the wackest things I've heard on this forum in months. If you want to make a case for trading Plekanec or Cole for younger pieces who will be more valuable in 3-4 years then I see where your coming from. We have a 10 year window to win with Patches, PK and Price. Solid prospects like Tinordi, Beaulieu and Gallagher plus our third overall, all joining the big club within 2-3 years. By the time they hit their stride we should still have a 4-5 year window with the existing core.

Think Chicago.

What if they would have trades away Keith and Seabrook in 2006? They won the cup four years later, in their prime.

I get what your saying about UFAs, but you can see the trade market is finally picking back up again. Now that we have a GM that is going tk agressively pursue improving this team we will find talent one way or another.

Freaky Habs Fan 05-13-2012 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macavoy (Post 49640855)
28 is now past prime in the new NHL. People's prime are 22-26. Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Toews, Kane's best years will all be in that range.

Oh yeah? Since when? Good luck defending your point since every players you've mentioned are still under 26 years old...

Since a few years, drafted players are better faster, but it doesn't mean their prime is earlier...

Andros777 05-13-2012 09:15 AM

Good veterans are really underrated these days. What about Cole?

He's a rock and he's also faster than any of the "young guns" we've had on this team in the last five years.

I predict that with stable management and direction Price, Subban, and Pacioretty will be stars until they're forty.

Frankenheimer 05-13-2012 09:18 AM

Too much outside-the-box thinking. Get back inside the box Macavoy.

MJN79 05-13-2012 09:27 AM

Seriously, this will be the longest off-season ever. I just flat out don't agree with you and don't understand the logic behind this.

And do you really want to learn from what Philly did? I mean, what they did is sign an average goalie to a 40 year contract. We have a legit number one goalie, a goalie that gm's around the league salivate on and you want to trade him for picks?

We have a star goalie who is very young, a potential all-star dman who also is very young and a power forward that we have been looking for so many years and now poof, we all trade them away?

I just don't agree, sorry

Bullsmith 05-13-2012 09:30 AM

This is crazy. If you think players like Subban will be past their prime by 27 and so should be dumped now, you'll be rebuilding permanently.

Crimson Skorpion 05-13-2012 09:35 AM

I think Price at this point is an untouchable piece of the team. If there's anything we've learned this post-season, is goaltending is the most important piece to the puzzle.

Lundqvist with the Rangers - stealing games.
Quick with LA - stealing games.
Brodeur with the Devils - stealing games.
Smith with the Coyotes - stealing games.

All these teams have two major important things; a system that a team has gotten behind and worked hard, and a goaltender that can stand on his head.

You want to trade away Subban and Pacioretty? Fine, but you better hope that these two can be replaced, not only be the pieces coming back in that trade but either a UFA signing or a prospect in development blossoming. If you can get 1-2 really good prospects (i.e. Coyle out of Minnesota) as well as a high pick, it could work out in a couple of years.

I see where you are getting at. If this team isn't anywhere near the cup in the next five years and they can bring in multiple pieces in exchange for Subban and Pacioretty in order to make the team Cup contenders within five years, it may be an option you look at. Still though, Price should not go anywhere. He's irreplaceable.


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