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-   -   ATD2012 Final: Ak Bars Kazan vs. Inglewood Jacks (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1191177)

seventieslord 05-16-2012 02:52 PM

ATD2012 Final: Ak Bars Kazan vs. Inglewood Jacks
 

AK BARS KAZAN
АК БАРС КАЗАНЬ


http://freeteams.net/files_public/2/...Bars-Kazan.jpg

Coach: Toe Blake
Captain: Sprague Cleghorn
Alternate Captains: Zdeno Chara, Eric Desjardins, Mike Modano

#25 Dave Andreychuk - #10 Jean Ratelle - #68 Jaromir Jagr
#7 Vic Stasiuk - #9 Mike Modano (A) - #33 Zigmund Palffy
#4 Bob Davidson - #18 Walt Tkaczuk - #16 Eric Nesterenko
#26 Mats Naslund - #15 Bobby Smith - #17 Mike Foligno
#8 Johnny Wilson
#14 Barney Stanley
#12 Tom Lysiak

#3 Zdeno Chara (A) - #2 Sprague Cleghorn (C)
#5 Mike Ramsey - #37 Eric Desjardins (A)
#6 Calle Johansson - #23 Petr Svoboda
#44 Alexei Zhitnik

#1 Johnny Bower
#11 Roberto Luongo

PP1
Ratelle - Andreychuk - Jagr
Cleghorn - Desjardins

PP2
Naslund - Smith - Palffy
Chara - Modano

(Jagr will take extended shifts on PP.)

PK1
Tkaczuk - Nesterenko
Chara - Ramsey
Bower

PK2
Modano - Davidson
Cleghorn - Desjardins
Bower

other PKers: Johansson, Svoboda, Ratelle, Palffy, Smith, Davidson, Stanley, Lysiak



VS


http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/e6841376dc.jpg



Cecil Hart

Harry Watson - Wayne Gretzky (C) - Jari Kurri
Baldy Northcott - Pat Lafontaine - Alexander Mogilny
Ross Lonsberry - Rod Brind'Amour (A) - Ron Ellis
Murray Murdoch - Mike Richards - Bernie Nicholls

Brian Leetch - Moose Johnson (A)
George Boucher (A) - Jimmy Watson
Lloyd Cook - Kimmo Timonen

Tiny Thompson
Rogie Vachon


Spare: Pavol Demitra (LW/RW/C), Bill Ezinicki (RW), Robyn Regehr (D), Pavel Kubina (D)


http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/pi...ictureid=10215

(tentative) Special Teams:

PP1: Leetch - Nicholls - Gretzky - Kurri - Watson
PP2: Boucher - Timonen - Lafontaine - Mogilny - Northcott

PK1: Johnson - Watson - Brind'Amour - Richards
PK2: Leetch - Cook - Gretzky - Kurri


seventieslord 05-16-2012 02:53 PM

FYI, Kazan has home ice advantage in this series thanks to a higher regular season point total.

Sturminator 05-16-2012 03:47 PM

It is nice to see a finals between two GMs as deserving as these two.

arrbez 05-17-2012 09:41 AM

Congrats to AkBars and their glorious namesake Admiral Akbar: foremost military commander of the Rebel Alliance.

May the force be with you, young Nik. Let's have a good one!

markrander87 05-17-2012 02:40 PM

It looks as though the LW position has next to no value now in the ATD.

TheDevilMadeMe 05-17-2012 02:47 PM

When Baldy Northcott is the best LW left, you know these teams scraped the bottom of the barrel when it came to LWs.

Hawkey Town 18 05-17-2012 03:08 PM

On the other hand, both teams have two of the best pure offensive players of all time to help elevate the play of those weak LW's.

arrbez 05-17-2012 03:11 PM

baldy northcott is a saint.

arrbez 05-17-2012 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 (Post 49825849)
On the other hand, both teams have two of the best pure offensive players of all time to help elevate the play of those weak LW's.

In a draft this size, it's a matter of what you can get away with sometimes. Obviously I'd have gotten a more dynamic offensive LWer than Watson if I didn't have Gretzky-Kurri on the top line, for instance.

seventieslord 05-17-2012 03:38 PM

wow, talk about getting away with it.

arrbez 05-17-2012 03:46 PM

In fairness, teams have won the Cup with some pretty weak LWers leading the way (Lucic, Fedotenko...Kreider?)

Historically, it's definitely the weakest position, so it's probably not that surprising that teams can succeed in the ATD without major scoring threats at LW.

BraveCanadian 05-17-2012 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arrbez (Post 49827499)
In fairness, teams have won the Cup with some pretty weak LWers leading the way (Lucic, Fedotenko...Kreider?)

Historically, it's definitely the weakest position, so it's probably not that surprising that teams can succeed in the ATD without major scoring threats at LW.

When we get to pick the absolute best of them from all time, it kind of is surprising..

Every team has flaws but to have these LW on the top lines of the ATD... well.. the people who voted for them the whole way can explain it. ;)

Nalyd Psycho 05-17-2012 04:10 PM

Explanation is simple, every team has flaws. And every team has strengths. The weak lws worked well with Kazan and Inglewood's strengths, so they beat teams with weaknesses elsewhere. It is merely happenstance that both have the same weakness.

arrbez 05-17-2012 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraveCanadian (Post 49828351)
Every team has flaws but to have these LW on the top lines of the ATD... well.. the people who voted for them the whole way can explain it. ;)

Speaking for my team, I don't think Watson is an issue on the top line because of who he's playing with. It's all about context. If I had an average top line centre I would have obviously looked for more offense from that position.

And that's the danger of using strict position-v-position ratings like I've seen in a few series. The team with the stronger players at any one position doesn't necessarily have the stronger lines overall.

I could have taken a Goulet or Schriner with my 5th pick, but I thought it was diminishing returns to take another shooter there compared to the value of having Georges Boucher as my #3 defenseman (particularly for the style I wanted to play).

TheDevilMadeMe 05-17-2012 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arrbez (Post 49827499)
In fairness, teams have won the Cup with some pretty weak LWers leading the way (Lucic, Fedotenko...Kreider?)

Historically, it's definitely the weakest position, so it's probably not that surprising that teams can succeed in the ATD without major scoring threats at LW.

I think Modin was Tampa Bay's best LW when they won, not that it matters.

Teams have won Cups with pretty weak top RWs and Cs too, as long as they made up for them in other areas.

arrbez 05-17-2012 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 49829661)
I think Modin was Tampa Bay's best LW when they won, not that it matters.

Teams have won Cups with pretty weak top RWs and Cs too, as long as they made up for them in other areas.

I was thinking Fedotenko for Pittsburgh, actually. Although he did come up huge in game 7 with Tampa. But yeah, Modin is another guy to add the to list of legendary cup-winning LWers.

TheDevilMadeMe 05-17-2012 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arrbez (Post 49829787)
I was thinking Fedotenko for Pittsburgh, actually. Although he did come up huge in game 7 with Tampa.

Oh right. Pittsburgh in 2009 was pretty unique though. Crosby and Malkin in the NHL in 2009 would be almost like an ATD team having Gretzky and Lemieux down the middle.

Hawkman 05-17-2012 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 49829661)
I think Modin was Tampa Bay's best LW when they won, not that it matters. Teams have won Cups with pretty weak top RWs and Cs too, as long as they made up for them in other areas.

Good point.

Rob Scuderi 05-17-2012 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arrbez (Post 49829787)
I was thinking Fedotenko for Pittsburgh, actually. Although he did come up huge in game 7 with Tampa. But yeah, Modin is another guy to add the to list of legendary cup-winning LWers.

He was still behind Kunitz thankfully, although he couldn't score to save his life during those playoffs.

arrbez 05-17-2012 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi (Post 49838851)
He was still behind Kunitz thankfully, although he couldn't score to save his life during those playoffs.

Yeah, I was thinking in terms of production. I recall Kunitz having a really tough time scoring goals that playoff.

arrbez 05-18-2012 12:09 AM

I'd like to make a small lineup change here:

I'm going to move Richards into the lineup, slide Nicholls over to RW, and sit Ezinicki. So my 4th line will look like this:

Murdoch - Richards - Nicholls

I've put Richards on the PK as well, since he's awesome at it.

Here's my updated roster post. Can someone update the first post with it? Thanks.

Sturminator 05-18-2012 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho (Post 49828519)
Explanation is simple, every team has flaws. And every team has strengths. The weak lws worked well with Kazan and Inglewood's strengths, so they beat teams with weaknesses elsewhere. It is merely happenstance that both have the same weakness.

Both of these teams represent what seems to be the new fashion in ATD team-building.

1) Draft 2/3rds of an excellent first line.
2) Draft a bunch of defensemen early.
3) ???
4) Profit.

Personally, I find it a bit banal that three out of the four semifinalists this year were teams built around this concept, but sometimes the wind just blows that way in the ATD. I think overpass deserves a lot of the credit (or blame) for the above being such a popular scheme this year.

jarek 05-18-2012 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sturminator (Post 49852869)
Both of these teams represent what seems to be the new fashion in ATD team-building.

1) Draft 2/3rds of an excellent first line.
2) Draft a bunch of defensemen early.
3) ???
4) Profit.

Personally, I find it a bit banal that three out of the four semifinalists this year were teams built around this concept, but sometimes the wind just blows that way in the ATD. I think overpass deserves a lot of the credit (or blame) for the above being such a popular scheme this year.

I think this can be simplified to saying that "depth wins". Teams that have stacked their top line with talent and subsequently lacked the depth among the rest of their roster have not had a ton of success of late.

markrander87 05-18-2012 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarek (Post 49854669)
I think this can be simplified to saying that "depth wins". Teams that have stacked their top line with talent and subsequently lacked the depth among the rest of their roster have not had a ton of success of late.

Isn't this the exact opposite of what Sturm just said..?

Sturminator 05-18-2012 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarek (Post 49854669)
I think this can be simplified to saying that "depth wins". Teams that have stacked their top line with talent and subsequently lacked the depth among the rest of their roster have not had a ton of success of late.

Actually, I think it's more of a referendum on the state of the offense/defense balance in the ATD. Essentially, this model offers voters a bare minimum of "guaranteed" offense (guys like Jagr, Gretzky and Richard who we know will score) slapped onto a team that is otherwise highly defensive. Among the semifinalists, the team with the best second line was the team that lost in five games. I'm not sure this indicates that the voters favor depth. It seems to me that the voters at this point seem to favor defense quite heavily, and don't give much of a **** about offensive depth.

This was not always the case. This is a new team-building paradigm, and a shocking new level of homogeneity among the teams that have advanced furthest. Earlier, in an ironic response to my criticism of voting patterns, GMM suggested that I post my votes as a template for others to follow. Sadly, the real irony seems to be that the voters are, in fact, following some template, just not mine.


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