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-   -   Since picking Jordan Staal 2nd overall in 2006... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1192731)

Letang fan 58 05-19-2012 02:34 AM

Since picking Jordan Staal 2nd overall in 2006...
 
Can you guess how many draft picks since picking Jordan Staal 2nd overall in 2006 have "made it" and are full time NHLers?

If you guessed zero you got it!

In fact in our last 4 draft classes the players we've chosen have played a total of 19 games in the NHL to this point. While I hope something changes and the guys from the past 2 drafts can really make it as full time NHLers I was very surprised how poor the drafting has been since Staal (who was 1 of about 6 cant miss players that year).

Captain Hook 05-19-2012 03:06 AM

Here's all the picks since 2006. Make of it what you will.

2006
Jordan Staal
Carl Sneep
Brian Strait
Chad Johnson
Timo Seppanen

2007
Angelo Esposito
Keven Veilleux
Robert Bortuzzo
Casey Pierro-Zabotel
Luca Caputi
Alex Grant
Jake Muzzin
Dustin Jeffrey

2008
Nathan Moon
Alexander Pechurski
Patrick Killeen
Nicholas D'Agostino

2009
Simon Despres
Philip Samuelsson
Ben Hanowski
Nick Petersen
Alex Velischek
Andy Bathgate
Viktor Ekbom

2010
Beau Bennett
Bryan Rust
Tom Kuhnhackl
Kenneth Agostino
Joe Rogalski
Reid McNeill

2011
Joe Morrow
Scott Harrington
Dominik Uher
Josh Archibald
Scott Wilson

#66 05-19-2012 05:12 AM

Yeah the Pens haven't drafted well. Look at the Red Wings and Caps propecct list and they have youngsters out the wahzoo.

Its a shame and I thought all this was CP's fault...

Letang fan 58 05-19-2012 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Hook (Post 49883219)
Here's all the picks since 2006. Make of it what you will.

2006
Jordan Staal 431
Carl Sneep 1
Brian Strait 12
Chad Johnson 6
Timo Seppanen 0

2007
Angelo Esposito 0
Keven Veilleux 0
Robert Bortuzzo 6
Casey Pierro-Zabotel 0
Luca Caputi 35
Alex Grant 0
Jake Muzzin 11
Dustin Jeffrey 66

2008
Nathan Moon 0
Alexander Pechurski 1
Patrick Killeen 0
Nicholas D'Agostino 0

2009
Simon Despres 18
Philip Samuelsson 0
Ben Hanowski 0
Nick Petersen 0
Alex Velischek 0
Andy Bathgate 0
Viktor Ekbom 0

2010
Beau Bennett 0
Bryan Rust 0
Tom Kuhnhackl 0
Kenneth Agostino 0
Joe Rogalski 0
Reid McNeill 0

2011
Joe Morrow 0
Scott Harrington 0
Dominik Uher 0
Josh Archibald 0
Scott Wilson 0

and heres the list with games played. I'm not gonna say disaster in 5 years since Staal was picked yet because I have high hopes for at least 2 players from each of the 2010, and 2011 draft, but the 3 previous to that were pretty well disasters at this point, and the Staal draft was a disaster after the 2nd pick overall.

Part of the reason the 2010,11 kids havent gotten a shot yet is because we are becoming more like the Wings and keeping our players in the minors or college longer which is really good. I just was really surprised how bad the drafting period was for the Pens. Obviously not going to be as good as when we were picking top 5 but somewhere in between that and what we actually have is what I thought we were getting for drafting until I looked at the list on hockeydb today.

TravisUlrich 05-19-2012 05:27 AM

Is this not typical for most NHL teams who finish in the top of the standings for 5 years? Seems like everyone always hails the Red Wings as Drafting Gods but which of the Red Wings prospects would you take over Despres, Morrow, or Bennett? Which Red Wings pick since 2006 would you take over Dustin Jeffrey?

Have a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...gs_draft_picks

Vujtek 05-19-2012 05:51 AM

2008 draft looks bad because all good picks were traded away but you can't complain about that.

1st rounder was traded in a Hossa deal
2nd rounder was traded for Gill
3rd rounder was traded for Laraque

All of those guys were good players for us - even for a little while - and helped the team to make the Cup finals (all three) and win the Cup (Gill).

And of those guys drafted that year, D'Agostino looks great for a 7th round pick.

In 07 draft, our 1st round pick Esposito was traded in a Hossa deal so another well used asset there. And guys like Jeffrey, Bortuzzo and Grant are still with the team all look decent players. Muzzin was a great pick too, but unfortunately wasn't signed. Caputi was also good pick and netted us an asset for '10 Cup run even if Poni didn't fit in here. And Veilleux is just an intriguing overall package but injuries really stopped his development. Still I'd say overall it's a decent draft for the Penguins.

Three latest drafts is too early to judge but the first four picks in '09 look pretty good (especially Despres is an amazing pick) and plenty of good prospects in the last two drafts as well.

So even if those guys haven't break out to the roster and become regulars yet, many of those picks have either helped the team in other ways (Esposito, even Caputi) or are still young guys with a future with the team.

Letang fan 58 05-19-2012 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TravisUlrich (Post 49883933)
Is this not typical for most NHL teams who finish in the top of the standings for 5 years? Seems like everyone always hails the Red Wings as Drafting Gods but which of the Red Wings prospects would you take over Despres, Morrow, or Bennett? Which Red Wings pick since 2006 would you take over Dustin Jeffrey?

Have a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...gs_draft_picks

For wings picks since 06 that id take over Jeffrey.........Nyqvist, Tatar, Brendan Smith.....those were all taken in 07/08/09 the last 2 wings drafts its hard to say yet but several more good prospects in them.

Nyqvist was taken at 121
Tatar at 60
Smith 27

Letang fan 58 05-19-2012 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vujtek (Post 49884015)
2008 draft looks bad because all good picks were traded away but you can't complain about that.

1st rounder was traded in a Hossa deal
2nd rounder was traded for Gill
3rd rounder was traded for Laraque

All of those guys were good players for us - even for a little while - and helped the team to make the Cup finals (all three) and win the Cup (Gill).

And of those guys drafted that year, D'Agostino looks great for a 7th round pick.

In 07 draft, our 1st round pick Esposito was traded in a Hossa deal so another well used asset there. And guys like Jeffrey, Bortuzzo and Grant are still with the team all look decent players. Muzzin was a great pick too, but unfortunately wasn't signed. Caputi was also good pick and netted us an asset for '10 Cup run even if Poni didn't fit in here. And Veilleux is just an intriguing overall package but injuries really stopped his development. Still I'd say overall it's a decent draft for the Penguins.

Three latest drafts is too early to judge but the first four picks in '09 look pretty good (especially Despres is an amazing pick) and plenty of good prospects in the last two drafts as well.

So even if those guys haven't break out to the roster and become regulars yet, many of those picks have either helped the team in other ways (Esposito, even Caputi) or are still young guys with a future with the team.

What those players netted us in trades isnt what im talking about here, I dont have doubts that Shero can make good trades at all. Ive seen it. Just because he can trade guys who didnt turn out to be any good to other teams before they prove to be busts doesnt mean they werent busts that we drafted though either.

Ogrezilla 05-19-2012 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Hook (Post 49883219)
Here's all the picks since 2006. Make of it what you will.

2006
Jordan Staal
Carl Sneep
Brian Strait
Chad Johnson
Timo Seppanen

2007
Angelo Esposito
Keven Veilleux
Robert Bortuzzo
Casey Pierro-Zabotel
Luca Caputi
Alex Grant
Jake Muzzin
Dustin Jeffrey

2008
Nathan Moon
Alexander Pechurski
Patrick Killeen
Nicholas D'Agostino

2009
Simon Despres
Philip Samuelsson
Ben Hanowski
Nick Petersen
Alex Velischek
Andy Bathgate
Viktor Ekbom

2010
Beau Bennett
Bryan Rust
Tom Kuhnhackl
Kenneth Agostino
Joe Rogalski
Reid McNeill

2011
Joe Morrow
Scott Harrington
Dominik Uher
Josh Archibald
Scott Wilson

the bolded have a good chance to play the majority of next season in the NHL. Prospects take time. It's not great, but its a pretty big jump from just Staal. And there is a lot of potential in these last 2 drafts.

JTG 05-19-2012 07:24 AM

W're really just coming up on the 2006 classes time to start making or breaking it. In the class, we obviously have Staal. Strait looks to be a solid 4-6 defenseman. Sneep may have a future, but probably not.

2007 and 2008's classes were used as trade fodder.

2009-2011 seem to have way more potential than the 1st 2 years...Shero picked some guys who have potential to be real impact guys.

#66 05-19-2012 08:34 AM

Last years draft was the only draft I was happy with in a long time. I was actuallyPOed about another 2 defenseman being picked but IMO they were BPA at the time.

The 2009 draft still has me shaking my head. Tons of skill going almost 4 rounds deep and the Pens come up with that group?

Rowdy Roddy Peeper 05-19-2012 09:06 AM

This has been discussed over and over again, with the same eventual consensus that gets forgotten every few months, when it gets brought up again. :rolleyes:

The Pens drafting isn't poor, our earliest draft yields from the Shero era ('06-'08) have simply been affected by trades (1st rounder in '07, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounders in '08), long-term injuries (Veilleux, Jeffrey), and college players who have longer development paths (Strait, Hanowski, etc.).

Couple that with the fact that nobody should be expecting significant returns from drafts as recent as '09, and you have a draft record that is still very much "to be determined". In fact, our tangible NHL returns are virtually no different from Detroit's over that period. And anyone who wants to compare our drafts to Washington's should also consider that while they were stockpiling early draft picks, we were busy trading early draft picks to bolster Finals and Cup rosters.

bigd 05-19-2012 09:46 AM

I think with the playoff results over the past 3 years you're going to see Shero change his strategy. Next season your going start seeing more home grown talent from our farm system. I think. Strait, Bortuzzo, and Tangradi all make the jump right from training camp and Despres will be up at the first injury. You might even see them start the season with 8 D-men.

Beauner 05-19-2012 10:43 AM

I also think some young blood would be helpful to the team. I don't really have a basis for it, but I feel like bringing up some rookies instead of signing outside guys would have a better impact.

Ogelthorpe 05-19-2012 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #66 (Post 49885443)
Last years draft was the only draft I was happy with in a long time. I was actuallyPOed about another 2 defenseman being picked but IMO they were BPA at the time.

The 2009 draft still has me shaking my head. Tons of skill going almost 4 rounds deep and the Pens come up with that group?

Despres is one of the reasons Gogo became expendable. Gogo became Neal and Nisky. So in a way you can say that the 09' draft got us Despres, Neal, and Niskanen.

Dupree13 05-19-2012 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 (Post 49884311)
What those players netted us in trades isnt what im talking about here, I dont have doubts that Shero can make good trades at all. Ive seen it. Just because he can trade guys who didnt turn out to be any good to other teams before they prove to be busts doesnt mean they werent busts that we drafted though either.

Yeah, I agree here. I often see it said that Esposito doesn't count ad a bad pick because we got value for him in a trade. That's great and all, but strictly speaking, it was still a poor draft choice.

jmelm 05-19-2012 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 (Post 49882917)
Can you guess how many draft picks since picking Jordan Staal 2nd overall in 2006 have "made it" and are full time NHLers?

If you guessed zero you got it!

In fact in our last 4 draft classes the players we've chosen have played a total of 19 games in the NHL to this point. While I hope something changes and the guys from the past 2 drafts can really make it as full time NHLers I was very surprised how poor the drafting has been since Staal (who was 1 of about 6 cant miss players that year).


While I agree with RRP's statement below that it's too early to judge 2009 onwards and that some things are yet to be determined and there could still be some impact players, this is a great example of why it bothers me when people blindly & homer-ishly praise Shero for his drafting acumen. At this point, it appears under-whelming until such time as the players prove otherwise.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper (Post 49886179)
This has been discussed over and over again, with the same eventual consensus that gets forgotten every few months, when it gets brought up again. :rolleyes:

The Pens drafting isn't poor, our earliest draft yields from the Shero era ('06-'08) have simply been affected by trades (1st rounder in '07, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounders in '08), long-term injuries (Veilleux, Jeffrey), and college players who have longer development paths (Strait, Hanowski, etc.).

Couple that with the fact that nobody should be expecting significant returns from drafts as recent as '09, and you have a draft record that is still very much "to be determined".

The Pens drafting isn't "poor" per se, but all excuses aside, I do not want to strive to simply not be poor. I want to be great. I want to be the best. I would like to see the Pens at least in the "well above average" if not "great" category. There are so many other things that are in the great category about our organization, and our drafting should be one of them. The Pens have plenty of money and resources, and should be better in this area.

Jacob 05-19-2012 11:21 AM

Throw out the first round picks, those are pretty much set in stone. Either they make it or they don't, but scouting/developing doesn't have as much to do with it as the players themselves.

In the later rounds the Penguins drafting has been OK in my opinion. Certainly not the worst, but not great either. Not as good as it should be or could be if we want to remain an upper echelon team, ya know?

One thing that stands out in those later round picks is that a lot of those players are relatively low-risk, low-reward types. That could still be a fluke, and not actually by design, but I'd still like to see a few more boom-or-bust type selections. You know, that undersized Swedish winger that is torching a Tier-3 league somewhere near the Arctic circle.

Just because that type of player might not fit into our organization's NHL model is fine, because they'll have higher value in a trade than a prospect that projects to be a 3rd line winger at best anyway.

#66 05-19-2012 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe (Post 49888099)
Despres is one of the reasons Gogo became expendable. Gogo became Neal and Nisky. So in a way you can say that the 09' draft got us Despres, Neal, and Niskanen.

I don't agree with that. Gogo became expendable because that a no brainer trade.

Again look at the Wings and Caps, other top teams drafting low, prospect lists and its loaded with high end skill in every position... the Pens list isn't.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper 05-19-2012 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmelm (Post 49888455)
The Pens drafting isn't "poor" per se, but all excuses aside, I do not want to strive to simply not be poor. I want to be great. I want to be the best. I would like to see the Pens at least in the "well above average" if not "great" category. There are so many other things that are in the great category about our organization, and our drafting should be one of them. The Pens have plenty of money and resources, and should be better in this area.

All I'm saying is that it's way too early to judge one way or the other because our first 3 drafts under Shero were so depleted by trade, injury, and college players with long development paths.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper 05-19-2012 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #66 (Post 49888825)
Again look at the Wings and Caps, other top teams drafting low, prospect lists and its loaded with high end skill in every position... the Pens list isn't.

I keep hearing Detroit mentioned. What tangible NHL returns do the Red Wings have so far from the '06 Draft onwards that supposedly dwarf ours?

That "high-end skill" hasn't translated into jack **** for them yet. Until it does, it shouldn't be used in any argument for their drafting.

As for the Caps, between '06 and '10 they've had 7 1st round picks and 8 2nd round picks because they were selling at the deadline while we were buying, while we had 4 1sts (traded one of them) and 3 2nd rounders. Of course they're going to hit more often, but I bet they'd trade all their high-end prospects for our playoff success.

Ogelthorpe 05-19-2012 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper (Post 49888983)
I keep hearing Detroit mentioned. What tangible NHL returns do the Red Wings have so far from the '06 Draft onwards that supposedly dwarf ours?

That "high-end skill" hasn't translated into jack **** for them yet. Until it does, it shouldn't be used in any argument for their drafting.

As for the Caps, between '06 and '10 they've had 7 1st round picks and 8 2nd round picks because they were selling at the deadline while we were buying, while we had 4 1sts (traded one of them) and 3 2nd rounders. Of course they're going to hit more often, but I bet they'd trade all their high-end prospects for our playoff success.

This exactly :handclap:

MrBurgundy 05-19-2012 11:41 AM

Another reason why not more have broke into the league yet is because of the depth we have at the NHL level. The players we are currently employing are viewed by the team as being better than the prospects are. They don't want to wait for a prospect to get better at the NHL level and go through growing pains since they are in a win now mode.

Ogelthorpe 05-19-2012 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #66 (Post 49888825)
I don't agree with that. Gogo became expendable because that a no brainer trade.

Again look at the Wings and Caps, other top teams drafting low, prospect lists and its loaded with high end skill in every position... the Pens list isn't.

Yeah....No brainer because depth allowed for it. If we were offered a big package for Fleury it would be very hard to take, simply because we don't have a replacement plan in place.

Ogelthorpe 05-19-2012 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBurgundy (Post 49889203)
Another reason why not more have broke into the league yet is because of the depth we have at the NHL level. The players we are currently employing are viewed by the team as being better than the prospects are. They don't want to wait for a prospect to get better at the NHL level and go through growing pains since they are in a win now mode.

This too


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