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-   -   Proposal: Niemi, Clowe, + 2nd to Tor.. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1194235)

FeedingFrenzy 05-22-2012 03:05 AM

Niemi, Clowe, + 2nd to Tor..
 
Sharks seeking MacArthur(3.25mil) + picks/prospect(young forward)..Leafs get their goalie at a reasonable price(3.8mil), and a big PF in Clowe(3.625mil) plus the 2nd. Sharks gain speed on the top 6 with MacArthur and add to a depleted cupboard with the picks/prospects and shed Niemi's contract.

What say you Leafs Nation??

mpt 05-22-2012 03:12 AM

Do you have any goalies in the system to replace Niemi?

That sounds like a bargain for Toronto

Inub0i 05-22-2012 03:23 AM

Well... if you consider Stalock or Greiss replacements, then sure. We have Buttloads of Goalie prospects; Greiss (Can he be considered a prospect anymore?), Stalock, Sateri, Sexsmith, Heemskerk, and Anderson.

I feel that we can get a bit more for Clowe, but it seems fair. Really, it depends on what the + is. What are we getting back for Clowe?

All I know in this deal is that we'd be getting MacArthur.

mpt 05-22-2012 03:32 AM

Clowe, Niemi, 1st for MacArthur, Reimer, and a 3rd?

Inub0i 05-22-2012 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpt (Post 49992035)
Clowe, Niemi, 1st for MacArthur, Reimer, and a 3rd?

Your counter proposal
:sharks
Clarke MacArthur
James Reimer
3rd

:leafs
Ryane Clowe
Antti Niemi
1st (17th overall) <-- Assuming it's the 2012 1st

I'll try to break it down. Clowe and MacArthur is a win for both teams; on is better along the boards and one is faster and both are capable of 2nd line scoring.


Two things that make me want to turn the trade down.

-The picks. Our first is to refill our depleted cupboard; I don't want the Sharks to trade that away. (Not to mention that the Leafs don't have a 3rd round pick this up coming draft)
-Our saturation of goalies (Niemi, Greiss, Stalock, Sexsmith, Anderson, Heemskerk). We got too many goalies to choose from, and is the least of the Sharks needs.

LyricalLyricist 05-22-2012 03:51 AM

What's Clowe's value alone? In general and not from TML.

mpt 05-22-2012 03:54 AM

You'll need a goalie to start if you get rid of Niemi. Greiss isn't starter worthy, is he?

Yea, now that you mention it.

MacArthur is slightly more valuable than Clowe, and Niemi is more valuable right now, but Reimer has more potential than Niemi.

MacArthur, Reimer for Clowe, Niemi, 2nd.


BTW i'm not a leafs fan

mpt 05-22-2012 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist (Post 49992123)
What's Clowe's value alone? In general and not from TML.

I would say Clowe and a 5th for MacArthur. Depends on which team is motivated to get the deal done.

If Burke phones Wilson, the deal is straight up. If Wilson phones Burke, he'll have to throw in a late rounder.

Inub0i 05-22-2012 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpt (Post 49992139)
You'll need a goalie to start if you get rid of Niemi. Greiss isn't starter worthy, is he?

Yea, now that you mention it.

MacArthur is slightly more valuable than Clowe, and Niemi is more valuable right now, but Reimer has more potential than Niemi.

MacArthur, Reimer for Clowe, Niemi, 2nd.


BTW i'm not a leafs fan

Never said you were. Just pointing out why I don't think the Sharks would accept.

As for Greiss, he has shown starter material; it's just that our coaches would bench Greiss for most of the season and ride Niemi through almost the entire season.

LyricalLyricist 05-22-2012 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpt (Post 49992149)
I would say Clowe and a 5th for MacArthur. Depends on which team is motivated to get the deal done.

If Burke phones Wilson, the deal is straight up. If Wilson phones Burke, he'll have to throw in a late rounder.

As a habs fan I would've thought clowe is worth significantly more than macarthur.

mpt 05-22-2012 04:03 AM

The Sharks have a tonne down the middle; thats who I think you should be parting with.

mpt 05-22-2012 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist (Post 49992183)
As a habs fan I would've thought clowe is worth significantly more than macarthur.

Yea, I'm not sure, on the west coast you hear things about MacArthur and I've seen Clowe play a lot, and well he's not a great skater and quite inconsistent in the offensive department. MacArthur i've heard is inconsistent but his skating is pretty decent. Plus he's a few years younger. Then again size matters. Maybe its a straight up wash like you said.

Both guys have similar contracts and will be UFAs the same year, so thats a wash too.

QMJHLfollower 05-22-2012 04:56 AM

I'd do the OP.

MacArthur+McKegg for Clowe+Niemi+2nd maybe?

LeafsYoungGuns 05-22-2012 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QMJHLfollower (Post 49992379)
I'd do the OP.

MacArthur+McKegg for Clowe+Niemi+2nd maybe?

Id rather not tradeMcKegg but that is a deal I do without thinking twice, dont think SJ would though seems a little steep

broc 05-22-2012 06:53 AM

Am I the only one who thinks this butt-ugly for the Sharks?

They give up a proven starter, a playoff performing power forward with size/grit, and they add their 1st rounder.... for an inconsistent Mac, a "who knows if he'll be a starter" Reimer, and a lower pick.

I see zero incentive for San Jose to do this. This isn't even close to fair. For clowe alone it would take th package and they still say no I would think.

7even 05-22-2012 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broc (Post 49993131)
Am I the only one who thinks this butt-ugly for the Sharks?

They give up a proven starter, a playoff performing power forward with size/grit, and they add their 1st rounder.... for an inconsistent Mac, a "who knows if he'll be a starter" Reimer, and a lower pick.

I see zero incentive for San Jose to do this. This isn't even close to fair. For clowe alone it would take th package and they still say no I would think.

See, that's what I like so much about this trade -- at first it seems rather one-sided, but when you look at it outside of a vacuum and consider both teams positions, it starts making quite a bit of sense. Both Clowe and MacArthur provide largely equivalent 2nd line scoring, but MacArthur excels off the rush, which is what San Jose would appreciate more of, and Clowe works the halfboards like nobody's business, which is what Toronto is hurting for. Niemi would provide Toronto with, at worst, the consistent, league average goaltending they've been desperate for since Belfour left, while giving Scrivens and Owuya a chance to develop properly. For San Jose, Reimer is easily platoon-able with one of the bevy of promising young goalies they have, allowing them to evaluate what they have without throwing the position of starter to a rookie. (Note: people seem to dismiss Reimer rather quickly, which I don't really understand. He's put up better numbers than Jonathan "Future Vezina Winner" Bernier in slightly more games played, but for some reason there's a major love affair with Bernier.) As for the 2nd round pick, I wouldn't add that from San Jose unless Toronto's 35th overall was coming back, or one of their mid forward prospects, like Ashton or Frattin. But I still really like this trade. Very well thought out. Hats off to you, OP.

dubplatepressure 05-22-2012 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpt (Post 49992215)
Yea, I'm not sure, on the west coast you hear things about MacArthur and I've seen Clowe play a lot, and well he's not a great skater and quite inconsistent in the offensive department. MacArthur i've heard is inconsistent but his skating is pretty decent. Plus he's a few years younger. Then again size matters. Maybe its a straight up wash like you said.

Both guys have similar contracts and will be UFAs the same year, so thats a wash too.

Macarthur gets a lot of flack around here because he's always trade fodder to armchair GMs. He plays for the leafs and was walked away from 2 years ago, and many people seem to think he isn't top-6 material but is a product of more ice time than he'd get anywhere else.

Fact is you're looking at a 50 pt guy. He doesn't have one single skill that sets him apart, but does a combination of things effectively. He's got good hands, decent speed, good agility, good hockey sense with back to back 20g seasons. He's not gritty, doesn't drive hard to the net, doesn't take bad penalties and isn't a liability in his own end. Maybe he hits 45pts, maybe he hits 55pts. Whatever.



Concurrently, some people have a massive you-know-what for Clowe,

Quote:

....a playoff performing power forward with size/grit, ... for an inconsistent Mac.
but he's basically the same productivity in an entirely different package. 50 pt player, drives to the net, gritty, slow, etc etc. How one 50 pt player's consistency varies to a great degree over another 50 pt player is not very relevant to me.


Adding Niemi into this deal requires Reimer going the other way, but I think a Clowe for Macarthur swap is fairly reasonable.

Cappo40* 05-22-2012 08:12 AM

To TOR:
Niemi, Clowe, 2nd

To SJ:
MacA, Holzer, 3rd 2013


I'd like to add a salary dump to SJ, but I know SJ doesnt want it back. Leafs would do this if we can rid of any piece(s) from LACK..

Pinkfloyd 05-22-2012 08:25 AM

I don't mind the premise of moving Clowe and/or Niemi. However, the Sharks don't need a goalie coming back. They don't need to be trading picks unless they're getting picks back in the same year that are either an upgrade in selection or an upgrade in quantity.

Personally, my ideal trade with the Leafs has always involved Gunnarsson coming back. The only way I'd be willing to part with the 2nd this year is if he's coming back like in a Clowe, Niemi, and the #55 for Gunnarsson and MacArthur.

mokspeed 05-22-2012 09:38 AM

I really like this proposal - I think that the Leafs would really benefit from having Niemi, even though it doesn't fit in the plan to get an old vet to show Reimer the ropes.

It's been said in previous threads that Clowe = MacA or Gunner+ (a small +).

I really like the proposal above:

Niemi, Clowe, 2nd

for

MacA and Gunner

JayP812 05-22-2012 10:40 AM

I think Clowe has more value than MacArthur from the Leafs fans I've talked to, I offered Clowe for MacA straight up and they all jumped at it. For that package, I want Gunnarsson as well. Is he more of a shutdown D-man or a PMD? Sharks need both in my opinion, as Murray has been terrible since the start of the calendar year and SJ has pretty much no left side depth.

Inub0i 05-22-2012 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mokspeed (Post 49996045)
I really like this proposal - I think that the Leafs would really benefit from having Niemi, even though it doesn't fit in the plan to get an old vet to show Reimer the ropes.

It's been said in previous threads that Clowe = MacA or Gunner+ (a small +).

I really like the proposal above:

Niemi, Clowe, 2nd

for

MacA and Gunner

This is a deal I can get behind. where do I sign?

mokspeed 05-22-2012 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayP812 (Post 49997811)
I think Clowe has more value than MacArthur from the Leafs fans I've talked to, I offered Clowe for MacA straight up and they all jumped at it. For that package, I want Gunnarsson as well. Is he more of a shutdown D-man or a PMD? Sharks need both in my opinion, as Murray has been terrible since the start of the calendar year and SJ has pretty much no left side depth.

Gunner is a shut-down dman with a good first pass. His biggest weakness? He whiffs on his one timers lol. He's suitable as a #3-4 dman who can play some decent minutes. I agree that Clowe > MacA, by a little bit, but not as much as tossing in Gunner in there.

I stated "Niemi, Clowe, 2nd for MacA and Gunner" above, but my double-take tells me its more like

Niemi, Clowe
for
MacA, Gunner
(a little more realistic... but Leafs probs still have to add a little)

hockeyball 05-22-2012 10:54 AM

Yah, Gunnarsson would be a good fit and make sense. I would also be ok with Kulemin, but I doubt DW would.

hockeyball 05-22-2012 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mokspeed (Post 49998159)
Gunner is a shut-down dman with a good first pass. His biggest weakness? He whiffs on his one timers lol. He's suitable as a #3-4 dman who can play some decent minutes. I agree that Clowe > MacA, by a little bit, but not as much as tossing in Gunner in there.

I stated "Niemi, Clowe, 2nd for MacA and Gunner" above, but my double-take tells me its more like

Niemi, Clowe
for
MacA, Gunner
(a little more realistic... but Leafs probs still have to add a little)

I think that is reasonable.


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