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-   -   Value of: Ballards and Raymond (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1199371)

OEL for Norris 05-31-2012 12:59 AM

Ballards and Raymond
 
I don't know what the concensus value of these players are but i think its something like this

Ballard=2nd
Raymond=3rd

based on that what teas would be interested....maybe islanders for Ballard(and i have no idea for Raymond)

Thoughts?

DontgoZiggy 05-31-2012 01:43 AM

The Kings could be interested in Raymond depending on what his contract demands are.

Chandrashekhar Limit 05-31-2012 01:51 AM

I think 2nd, 3rd is a good guess.

Hi-wayman 05-31-2012 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnbiasHockeyFan1 (Post 50344361)
I don't know what the concensus value of these players are but i think its something like this

Ballard=2nd
Raymond=3rd

based on that what teas would be interested....maybe islanders for Ballard(and i have no idea for Raymond)

Thoughts?

I think you are listening far too much to what HF fans think the value of Canuck roster players are compared to reality. Gillis could not replace the value either bring to the Canucks as a team for anywhere close to your suggestions. What makes you think Gillis even wants to trade either player?

Raymond is a ligitimate top 6 NHL player who just happens to be on a team with 5 solid top six wingers. Of those 5 wingers, Raymond is the best defensively so AV uses him on the 3rd line until needed on the 2nd due to injury.

Ballard is in a similar role on LD behind Hamhuis and Edler.

Just because either is not regularily playing a top 6/top 4 role does not mean they wouldn't on some other team nor does Gillis want to trade away the backup role either bring to the team.

Hertl Power 05-31-2012 02:03 AM

There are some rumblings out there that Vancouver is thinking of not giving a qualifying offer to Raymond. Because of those rumblings some teams are going to see his rights as ufa instad of rfa and that will hurt his trade value but increase teams intrest after july 1st hits.

For Ballard, since he has been scratched so much and has been given a diminished role when he does play, I think most teams think he is a reclamation or cap dump and I don't see him getting a 2nd round pick. He hasn't come close to playing up to his cap hit.

SoupyFIN 05-31-2012 02:11 AM

Ballards. :laugh:

Still not as good as goatlender or outhouse. But up there.

Nucks N Canes 05-31-2012 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiddenpsyche (Post 50345383)
There are some rumblings out there that Vancouver is thinking of not giving a qualifying offer to Raymond. Because of those rumblings some teams are going to see his rights as ufa instad of rfa and that will hurt his trade value but increase teams intrest after july 1st hits.

For Ballard, since he has been scratched so much and has been
given a diminished role when he does play, I think most teams think he is a reclamation or cap dump and I don't see him getting a 2nd round pick. He hasn't come close to playing up to his cap hit.

Ballard wasnt scratched all year and team played much more poorly with him out of the lineup. Doubt he gets traded. He needs more mins imo as he tries to hard to stay out of doghouse with his limited minutes. He never gets in a rhythm. And with raymond he came back from a major injury amd wasnt back into form, think he gets one more chance and has a good rebound year like Kuba did.

DJOpus 05-31-2012 04:58 AM

The guy was +10 in his last 30 games then got hurt...I don't know how anyone sees that as scratched.

mstad101 05-31-2012 05:18 AM

Would the Jets send us Chicagos 2nd n 3rd round picks for both?

Flair Hay 05-31-2012 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstad101 (Post 50346625)
Would the Jets send us Chicagos 2nd n 3rd round picks for both?

Highly doubtful. The Jets are a lot more towards the Predator style of building mostly through drafting. Winnipeg actually has quite a bit of bottom six and NHL calibre defense depth. They need a superstar or two, Ballard and Raymond don't fit the bill.

mstad101 05-31-2012 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhay1987 (Post 50346657)
Highly doubtful. The Jets are a lot more towards the Predator style of building mostly through drafting. Winnipeg actually has quite a bit of bottom six and NHL calibre defense depth. They need a superstar or two, Ballard and Raymond don't fit the bill.

Dang. Though the Jets have no shortage of offensive D.

First team that came to mind when 2nd n 3rd round picks that may be an excess and might be available

CREW99AW 05-31-2012 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnbiasHockeyFan1 (Post 50344361)
I don't know what the concensus value of these players are but i think its something like this

Ballard=2nd
Raymond=3rd

based on that what teas would be interested....maybe islanders for Ballard(and i have no idea for Raymond)

Thoughts?

Get back to Garth Snow in August.See if he's struck out on the ufa market and trade market.See if he's desperate at that point.:p:

TheEdge27 05-31-2012 07:29 AM

Seems like Ballard is the Paul Martin of Vancouver. Id love to make a deal for those 2 around Martin, with us adding a pick or something. Not sure if Nucks fans feel the same.

Hardyvan123 05-31-2012 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnbiasHockeyFan1 (Post 50344361)
I don't know what the concensus value of these players are but i think its something like this

Ballard=2nd
Raymond=3rd

based on that what teas would be interested....maybe islanders for Ballard(and i have no idea for Raymond)

Thoughts?

That's optimistic for both players since Ballard plays below his salary, although a change of scenery might change that.

Raymond is going to need to become a PK specialist or find his way out of the league very quickly.

Hackeybuff* 05-31-2012 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnbiasHockeyFan1 (Post 50344361)
I don't know what the concensus value of these players are but i think its something like this

Ballard=2nd
Raymond=3rd

based on that what teas would be interested....maybe islanders for Ballard(and i have no idea for Raymond)

Thoughts?

Hi everyone . This is my first post here. I would like to think my ideas and opinions are fairly accurate but I know and respect that everyone else has one that is just as valid as mine.

I believe Ballard and Raymond are too different situations for the Canucks. Raymond is a speedy forward who has a lot of skill but does not seem to want to go to the dirty areas nor do the dirty work in order to maximize his skill. I fear the Canucks may let the guy walk to another team like Pittsburg on an offer sheet .

The Penguins would love to get raymond for a second round pick compensation then turn him into a 35 goal guy with Crosby and Malkin. This would be a huge win for the Pens and a big loss by the Canucks. I am pretty certain he would accept an offer sheet from the pens for 2mil and the canucks either match or take low second rounder.

Ballard is a gamer but is a dollar short and a day late to dominate in this new NHL. Hes fast but not Brian Campbell fast. Hes smart, but his hockey IQ is not above any kind of average to give him an advantage.

Hes small for a defenseman and cant box out top 6 forwards. His reads in the D zone are Bieksa suspect. But all and all he is a Ian White kind of guy without the gritty edge.

Problem is his salary and his history. His 4million makes him useless on many contending teams who could spend the money elsewhere. On other teams he doesnt improve them enough to take the 4mil on that the owner might be trying to save. Its a rock and hard place for Ballard. The only teams that can take him are teams desperate to make the floor for a season but he has too many years left.

And finally its the assets in Grabner and Howson that Gillis gave up. This may lead a GM to dig his heels in and 'prove' Ballard was worth it. So far after 2 years, its become an embarrassment.

I think Keith Ballard is a good man but is in difficult situation.

So in summary we need to re sign Raymond before a team like the penquins steal him for virtually nothing, and we need to find Ballard a home for some kind of small return.

GlenngarryGlencross 05-31-2012 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackeybuff (Post 50348219)
Hi everyone . This is my first post here. I would like to think my ideas and opinions are fairly accurate but I know and respect that everyone else has one that is just as valid as mine.

I believe Ballard and Raymond are too different situations for the Canucks. Raymond is a speedy forward who has a lot of skill but does not seem to want to go to the dirty areas nor do the dirty work in order to maximize his skill. I fear the Canucks may let the guy walk to another team like Pittsburg on an offer sheet .

The Penguins would love to get raymond for a second round pick compensation then turn him into a 35 goal guy with Crosby and Malkin. This would be a huge win for the Pens and a big loss by the Canucks. I am pretty certain he would accept an offer sheet from the pens for 2mil and the canucks either match or take low second rounder.

Ballard is a gamer but is a dollar short and a day late to dominate in this new NHL. Hes fast but not Brian Campbell fast. Hes smart, but his hockey IQ is not above any kind of average to give him an advantage.

Hes small for a defenseman and cant box out top 6 forwards. His reads in the D zone are Bieksa suspect. But all and all he is a Ian White kind of guy without the gritty edge.

Problem is his salary and his history. His 4million makes him useless on many contending teams who could spend the money elsewhere. On other teams he doesnt improve them enough to take the 4mil on that the owner might be trying to save. Its a rock and hard place for Ballard. The only teams that can take him are teams desperate to make the floor for a season but he has too many years left.

And finally its the assets in Grabner and Howson that Gillis gave up. This may lead a GM to dig his heels in and 'prove' Ballard was worth it. So far after 2 years, its become an embarrassment.

I think Keith Ballard is a good man but is in difficult situation.

So in summary we need to re sign Raymond before a team like the penquins steal him for virtually nothing, and we need to find Ballard a home for some kind of small return.

35 goals is awfully rosy for Raymond, even playing alongside Malkin or Crosby.

Pens already have Dupuis as a similar player coming off a career year, don't really see what Raymond would add.

Hackeybuff* 05-31-2012 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Ed (Post 50348369)
35 goals is awfully rosy for Raymond, even playing alongside Malkin or Crosby.

Pens already have Dupuis as a similar player coming off a career year, don't really see what Raymond would add.

Raymond adds unusual world class speed, skill and PK ability. For basically nothing, its a huge gain for the penguins. I dont see how any team -even a lottery - would keep their second round pick over that.

The pens can have Raymond and Dupuis at the same time. It is allowed.

Luck 6 05-31-2012 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiddenpsyche (Post 50345383)
There are some rumblings out there that Vancouver is thinking of not giving a qualifying offer to Raymond. Because of those rumblings some teams are going to see his rights as ufa instad of rfa and that will hurt his trade value but increase teams intrest after july 1st hits.

For Ballard, since he has been scratched so much and has been given a diminished role when he does play, I think most teams think he is a reclamation or cap dump and I don't see him getting a 2nd round pick. He hasn't come close to playing up to his cap hit.

No there aren't. People are taking a Gillis interview and actually trying to draw conclusions from it, that's the problem. Gillis was asked if he's going to qualify Raymond. His response was (paraphrase): we haven't got there yet, we're going to weight our options and see whats available then make an informed decision.

Obviously Gillis is going to say that. He may be using it as leverage with Raymond to sign a longer deal at less salary. There's no way Gillis is letting Raymond go, players will be handed out insane contracts yet again this year in free agency. Raymond at 2.6mil will be a bargain and Gillis knows it.

Hackeybuff* 05-31-2012 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luck 6 (Post 50348777)
No there aren't. People are taking a Gillis interview and actually trying to draw conclusions from it, that's the problem. Gillis was asked if he's going to qualify Raymond. His response was (paraphrase): we haven't got there yet, we're going to weight our options and see whats available then make an informed decision.

Obviously Gillis is going to say that. He may be using it as leverage with Raymond to sign a longer deal at less salary. There's no way Gillis is letting Raymond go, players will be handed out insane contracts yet again this year in free agency. Raymond at 2.6mil will be a bargain and Gillis knows it.

I agree with this. Raymond is in a stronger position than he should be by rights. He had a lousy year coming off an injury but his speed and talent to another team for very little give his agent the upper hand on Gillis.

We need to at least qualify the guy but you are right . Gillis is busy convincing his agent Raymond will play with Kesler and keep him long term.

Benedict Kovalchuk 05-31-2012 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackeybuff (Post 50349189)
I agree with this. Raymond is in a stronger position than he should be by rights. He had a lousy year coming off an injury but his speed and talent to another team for very little give his agent the upper hand on Gillis.

We need to at least qualify the guy but you are right . Gillis is busy convincing his agent Raymond will play with Kesler and keep him long term.

I suspect this is the case, and I hope for the Canuck's sake they to qualify him. Maybe he does not fit the Canucks right now, but he is an asset, and it's just bad business to let an asset walk for nothing.

Vorkosh 05-31-2012 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiddenpsyche (Post 50345383)
There are some rumblings out there that Vancouver is thinking of not giving a qualifying offer to Raymond. Because of those rumblings some teams are going to see his rights as ufa instad of rfa and that will hurt his trade value but increase teams intrest after july 1st hits.

For Ballard, since he has been scratched so much and has been given a diminished role when he does play, I think most teams think he is a reclamation or cap dump and I don't see him getting a 2nd round pick. He hasn't come close to playing up to his cap hit.

Do you actually watch Canucks games? or do you just base this on what other's have said?

Ballard has been our best defenseman this year, and since AV's leash on him has more slack, he has been improving and learning our system a lot more

blankall 05-31-2012 11:13 AM

Raymond will not be qualified. He will become a UFA. Therefore, he has zero value. Nothing to do with his play, but I simply do not see the Canucks bringing him back for his current salary.

Ballard has very little value as his contract is too high. In order for someone to have value, they have to have something you could not acquire on the FA market. Why would you give up a 2nd to Vancouver when you could easily sign a #4/5 defenceman for 4+ million for free?

blankall 05-31-2012 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosh (Post 50352949)
Do you actually watch Canucks games? or do you just base this on what other's have said?

Ballard has been our best defenseman this year, and since AV's leash on him has more slack, he has been improving and learning our system a lot more

haha Ballard was not your best defenceman. He barely edged out Rome for ice time on the bottom pairing.

In terms of defencemen, he was near the bottom of every stat except for penalty minutes. Ballard also had one of the worst quality of competition matchups on your team:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...12+13+14+15+16

Ballard was not worth his contract in any way, and him being injured for a large part of the season does not add to his value.

wej20 05-31-2012 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackeybuff (Post 50348519)
Raymond adds unusual world class speed, skill and PK ability. For basically nothing, its a huge gain for the penguins. I dont see how any team -even a lottery - would keep their second round pick over that.

The pens can have Raymond and Dupuis at the same time. It is allowed.

Pens need a RH RWer not another LH LWer.

Socratic Method Man 05-31-2012 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiddenpsyche (Post 50345383)
There are some rumblings out there that Vancouver is thinking of not giving a qualifying offer to Raymond. Because of those rumblings some teams are going to see his rights as ufa instad of rfa and that will hurt his trade value but increase teams intrest after july 1st hits.

For Ballard, since he has been scratched so much and has been given a diminished role when he does play, I think most teams think he is a reclamation or cap dump and I don't see him getting a 2nd round pick. He hasn't come close to playing up to his cap hit.

Fair enough, but if being injured counts as scratched, Crosby was scratched an awful lot last year too. And the year before that too. Crosby was given a hugely diminished role.

I realize most people here have an emotional feeling towards the Canucks, and negative emotions towards Canucks players. You can let your emotions control your thought processing, or you can let logic control your thought processing. Rational humans do the latter.


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