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-   -   CBJ Prospect Thread III (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1200077)

Samkow 06-01-2012 11:58 AM

CBJ Prospect Thread III
 
Old one: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=528537

Matt Foley 06-01-2012 02:06 PM

I'm surprised that this hasn't been a topic of discussion up until now...

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ing-2012-21-30

I know that HF isn't the final say on team's prospect pools, but being ranked 29th out of 30 teams when you draft as high as they do year in and year out is embarrassing to say the least.

We have the worst NHL team and now the 2nd worst prospect pool? Way to go, Howson.

alphafox 06-01-2012 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Foley (Post 50394759)
I know that HF isn't the final say on team's prospect pools, but being ranked 29th out of 30 teams when you draft as high as they do year in and year out is embarrassing to say the least.

We have the worst NHL team and now the 2nd worst prospect pool? Way to go, Howson.

Both Johansen and Moore our top 2 prospects according to Hockey's Future both "graduated" that plus their failure to count Atkinson as a top prospect really takes drops their credibility in my opinion. We don't have a single first round pick considered a prospect any promising prospects we have such as Atkinson, Jenner, Tynan, Chaput are disregarded because they don't project as first liners.

Xoggz22 06-01-2012 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Foley (Post 50394759)
I'm surprised that this hasn't been a topic of discussion up until now...

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ing-2012-21-30

I know that HF isn't the final say on team's prospect pools, but being ranked 29th out of 30 teams when you draft as high as they do year in and year out is embarrassing to say the least.

We have the worst NHL team and now the 2nd worst prospect pool? Way to go, Howson.

Certainly makes sense although I'm not sure I'd pin this all on Howson. Our 2009 and 2010 first round picks (Moore and Johanssen) have both been graduated and we traded last years. Couple that with our abysmal 2nd round efforts and we have little to show from the front end of drafts. Misses like Filatov and the trade of Voracek mean the last 5 first round picks have essentially graduated.

No depth from the higher end of the draft has created this hole. The good news is that it appears we have been building pretty good depth on defense and role players. We clearly lack goaltending and high end forward depth. Personally, I think our ability to identify players in the draft has been much better the last few years. With years of suck, the CBJ seemed impelled to play their 1st round picks. That inevitably means we'll have less high end prospects in the pipeline.

They absolutely need to improve their top end draft success rates. They also need to improve the on ice product so that prospects can develop in the pipeline rather than the NHL (unless they are clearly good enough for the NHL, then I say play them.)

Samkow 06-01-2012 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Foley (Post 50394759)
I'm surprised that this hasn't been a topic of discussion up until now...

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ing-2012-21-30

I know that HF isn't the final say on team's prospect pools, but being ranked 29th out of 30 teams when you draft as high as they do year in and year out is embarrassing to say the least.

We have the worst NHL team and now the 2nd worst prospect pool? Way to go, Howson.

I can't take that ranking seriously after reading what they had written about the team.

JacketsFanWest 06-01-2012 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samkow (Post 50397271)
I can't take that ranking seriously after reading what they had written about the team.

This. I can see being critical of the Jackets prospects after poor years (especially for Calvert and Kubalik), but seriously, that was ridiculously uneducated.

The issue with the Jackets prospects pool getting respect from Hfboard is they lack players who followings that get overhyped.

Crede777 06-01-2012 04:14 PM

If Atkinson were playing for a team like Montreal, we wouldn't stop hearing about him.

Combine that with the fact that OUR players either graduate or move on means that our prospect pool seems thin. We don't have guys like Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, or Granlund that are taking forever to reach the NHL.

Mayor Bee 06-01-2012 05:13 PM

I love all of the posts below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphafox (Post 50395295)
Both Johansen and Moore our top 2 prospects according to Hockey's Future both "graduated" that plus their failure to count Atkinson as a top prospect really takes drops their credibility in my opinion. We don't have a single first round pick considered a prospect any promising prospects we have such as Atkinson, Jenner, Tynan, Chaput are disregarded because they don't project as first liners.

Don't forget too that the CBJ used to be ranked in the top-5 for prospects, and none of them did anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samkow (Post 50397271)
I can't take that ranking seriously after reading what they had written about the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacketsFanWest (Post 50398467)
This. I can see being critical of the Jackets prospects after poor years (especially for Calvert and Kubalik), but seriously, that was ridiculously uneducated.

The issue with the Jackets prospects pool getting respect from Hfboard is they lack players who followings that get overhyped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crede777 (Post 50399765)
If Atkinson were playing for a team like Montreal, we wouldn't stop hearing about him.

Combine that with the fact that OUR players either graduate or move on means that our prospect pool seems thin. We don't have guys like Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, or Granlund that are taking forever to reach the NHL.

Bingo. Remember just a year ago, when Toronto fans were hyping Jerry D'Amigo like he was a future All-Star?

By the same token, last year there was a bit of shock that Seth Ambroz fell into the 5th round (and into CBJ hands)...everyone seems to have forgotten that. But no one's forgotten about Teemu Pulkkinen doing the same two years ago, possibly because he's with Detroit.

Samkow 06-01-2012 05:27 PM

Looks like Corbeil wasn't signed.

Sore Loser 06-01-2012 06:11 PM

To see HF's credibility about this sort of thing, all one has to do is go back and look at some of their prior "top 100 prospect" rankings from about 10 years ago. There are some real beauties on those lists.

That's what I think of HF and their prospect/organizational rankings. I don't think there's any doubt that we need to re-stock the cupboards, but I don't think it's nearly 29th overall bad.

Timeless Winter 06-02-2012 12:35 PM

Is there a reason they should be ranked better than 29th??

Fro 06-02-2012 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timeless Winter (Post 50424033)
Is there a reason they should be ranked better than 29th??

perhaps not, but they didn't bother to name some of our better prospects...just came off as lazy reporting to me

EspenK 06-02-2012 12:45 PM

If I remember correctly, I think Hockey News had Jacket's prospect pool rated 24th. Looking for the magazine to confirm. I know it is here somewhere. :shakehead

Mayor Bee 06-02-2012 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timeless Winter (Post 50424033)
Is there a reason they should be ranked better than 29th??

Quote:

Originally Posted by EspenK (Post 50424259)
If I remember correctly, I think Hockey News had Jacket's prospect pool rated 24th. Looking for the magazine to confirm. I know it is here somewhere. :shakehead

Honestly, I've never been a fan of overall prospect pool rankings. Ones who scored extremely high who have gone through Columbus include Marc Denis, Rostislav Klesla, Nikolai Zherdev, and Nikita Filatov.

It almost seems like, once a kid is drafted, he forever stays stuck in that role that he had when he was 18. If he's 22 and has not developed one iota since he was drafted, he'll still be highly ranked because it's a familiar name and "he can turn it around" or "there's a reason why he was drafted so high".

Heck, here are the #1 overall players from the THN Future Watch going back almost 20 years.

1994 - Peter Forsberg
1995 - Ed Jovanovski
1996 - Bryan Berard
1997 - Marc Denis
1998 - Marian Hossa
1999 - Roberto Luongo
2000 - Roberto Luongo
2001 - Rostislav Klesla
2002 - Tuomo Ruutu
2003 - Kari Lehtonen
2004 - Kari Lehtonen
2005 - Alex Ovechkin
2006 - Evgeni Malkin
2007 - Erik Johnson
2008 - Carey Price
2009 - Nikita Filatov
2010 - Alex Pietrangelo
2011 - Brayden Schenn
2012 - Evgeny Kuznetsov

Sore Loser 06-02-2012 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timeless Winter (Post 50424033)
Is there a reason they should be ranked better than 29th??

Yes, if they had someone who actually follows the team and their prospects, they would be rated ahead of at least a few of those teams. For example, HF has New Jersey at #2 on their list; led by Jon Merrill - who was suspended for a good part of the season by the Michigan Wolverines, and has question marks written all over him. Scott Wedgewood is their #2 prospect, and for me his high end is that of a backup NHL goaltender. We have Cam Atkinson, who could be a 30 goal scorer in the very near future, and David Savard, who will be a top-4 defenseman for us hopefully very soon.

Mayor Bee 06-02-2012 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sore Loser (Post 50425671)
Yes, if they had someone who actually follows the team and their prospects, they would be rated ahead of at least a few of those teams. For example, HF has New Jersey at #2 on their list; led by Jon Merrill - who was suspended for a good part of the season by the Michigan Wolverines, and has question marks written all over him. Scott Wedgewood is their #2 prospect, and for me his high end is that of a backup NHL goaltender. We have Cam Atkinson, who could be a 30 goal scorer in the very near future, and David Savard, who will be a top-4 defenseman for us hopefully very soon.

Correct me if I'm wrong about Merrill, but wasn't he also suspended a good part of the season when he was with the USNTDP as well? And is it true that several teams removed him off their draft boards entirely as a result of what exactly led to that suspension?*

*I've heard it, I'm just wondering if you have more info

leesmith 06-02-2012 09:56 PM

Until the CBJ prove they're not totally incompetent, hockey writers will continue to take the easy way out by ranking Columbus at the bottom of whatever rankings or projections they write about.

Viqsi 06-02-2012 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesmith (Post 50442133)
Until the CBJ prove they're not totally incompetent, hockey writers will continue to take the easy way out by ranking Columbus at the bottom of whatever rankings or projections they write about.

You realize, of course, that HF was consistently ranking our prospect pool towards the top of the NHL until just recently, right?

leesmith 06-02-2012 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viqsi (Post 50443687)
You realize, of course, that HF was consistently ranking our prospect pool towards the top of the NHL until just recently, right?

Yep. And your point?

Sore Loser 06-03-2012 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayor Bee (Post 50425893)
Correct me if I'm wrong about Merrill, but wasn't he also suspended a good part of the season when he was with the USNTDP as well? And is it true that several teams removed him off their draft boards entirely as a result of what exactly led to that suspension?*

*I've heard it, I'm just wondering if you have more info

Unfortunately, I do not know what led to the suspension. Merrill is a talented player, but it's my understanding that he's turning into a bit of a cancer. Kyle Beach had huge potential when he was drafted in 2008 ... so much that the Blackhawks picked him at #11 overall, just ahead of Tyler Myers. Beach scored 52 goals in 68 games as a 19 year old, playing alongside slick playmaker Mitch Wahl. Size wasn't a concern - Beach stands 6'3" and is over 200 pounds. Obviously, he can score - the only questions that myself and other scouts had on him were his foot speed, and his locker room presence. Beach totalled 763 penalty minutes in 251 WHL games, many of which were misconduct penalties or moronic moves that led to suspensions.

I think we all know how the Beach story has turned out for the Blackhawks so far. He's not seen the NHL ice yet, and has been a healthy scratch on numerous occasions for their AHL team. I see a similar future for Jon Merrill, if these question marks about his head stand true.

Not to derail the thread - but this guy is the top prospect in the NJ system. Why are they a full seven spots ahead of us?

Viqsi 06-03-2012 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sore Loser (Post 50460785)
Not to derail the thread - but this guy is the top prospect in the NJ system. Why are they a full seven spots ahead of us?

Nobody did any research beyond the 1st round? :)

HF thought Arniel had a good idea when he recommend that everyone "just keep piling on"? ;)

HF believes their prior high rankings of us have contributed to the curse and are trying to help out? ;)

Crede777 06-03-2012 05:04 PM

As I said before, it's because we graduated and traded away a whole lot of players this past season.

Also, we didn't draft in the first round last summer.

FlaggerX 06-04-2012 01:50 PM

Keep in mind we've been at the top of their rankings before this year. With Moore, Atkinson and Johan graduating, they probably feel stung by having been so positive in the past and are moving in the other direction. it's an interesting site, but I'd much rather talk with some actual scouts.

Dr. Fire 06-04-2012 02:01 PM

May I remind you all that are bashing HF for the ranking that "The Hockey News" also ranked the CBJ prospects at or near the bottom of the barrel in their last future watch edition.

And no, I won't provide a link. if you are interested you can find it out there.

Mayor Bee 06-04-2012 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Fire (Post 50497897)
May I remind you all that are bashing HF for the ranking that "The Hockey News" also ranked the CBJ prospects at or near the bottom of the barrel in their last future watch edition.

And no, I won't provide a link. if you are interested you can find it out there.

You can go up to post #14 and see the list of THN #1 prospects going back to 1994, if you so desire.;)

Simply put, there's no way to tell how a prospect is going to turn out in the NHL the year that he's drafted, or the year after, or (in most cases) the year after. I used to save my THN Future Watches for later reference, and it was incredible how off the mark it used to be. And this wasn't their columnists writing it, it was based on interviews and submissions from scouts.


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