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HooliganX2 06-04-2012 12:04 AM

LH Defenseman
 
Instead of arguing about it in the trade forums I thought I would make a thread here. What do people see the left side of our defense looking like next season. I personally think it will most likely be Jackman, Cole and Russel with the possibility of signing a depth guy again like Huskins.

I personally would like an upgrade over Jackman but I just don't see anyone being available for the right price.

Free agents.
Suter
Garrison
Allen
Stuart

Suter would be nice but I am pretty sure we won't be a contender for him. The next guy on the list would Garrison who I think will get paid big by someone that misses out on Suter. I don't think he will end up in our price range. Stuart would be nice but seems to only want to play in CA or Detroit. Allen may or may not be an upgrade on Jackman. Pretty much all of the other FAs would be a step down from Jackman.

Through a trade who is available that we wouldn't have to give up to much depth for that would be an upgrade over Jackman? I honestly cannot think of anyone that is for sure available. Maybe Staal but he would cost a lot in assets to get. Giordano could be an option but I really doubt he is available as the Flames defense would be awful without him.

So how should we upgrade our defense realistically?

Mike Liut 06-04-2012 12:10 AM

So how should we upgrade our defense realistically?


I think it's going to be tougher than we all think without over paying. I would offer Stewart, Rattie + 1st if I knew I was getting somebody special. 3 Pieces that won't affect our 2012 roster at all since Tarasenko is coming over.

Tarasenko + stud LHD + healthy Halak = major contender. LA would not have swept us with this combo.

STL fan in IA 06-04-2012 12:18 AM

I'd definitely take Allen over Jackman but why not have both?

Allen-Petro
Jackman-Shatty
Russell-Polak
Cole

and before anyone *****es about Cole not being in the top-6, he'll get plenty of games as there's no way the other 6 all stay healthy for all 82 games and he could also be inserted in the event one of the top-6 plays their way out of the lineup.

PocketNines 06-04-2012 12:45 AM

Bryan Allen, like Barret Jackman, is exclusively a defensive defenseman. Jackman is better at this job. The same goes for Salvador.

Carle is like getting a less physical Colaiacovo for nearly twice the price (better numbers but not by as much as you'd expect as Philly's far better forward production boosts his secondary assist #s higher).

Garrison is better than Jackman as a defensive defenseman. If you're upgrading Jackman you have to have the guy be better defensively. Otherwise just keep Jackman on the second pairing. My argument for the risk being worth it on Garrison is that Pietrangelo is every bit as good as Brian Campbell as an offensive QB partner (remember, Garrison acted as the defensive anchor on that pairing and benefited from Campbell's offensive hockey sense). Garrison was paired with Weaver last season; with Campbell this season. Pietrangelo is more like Campbell offensively.

I've said before that if everything pans out perfectly with Joel Edmundson in 4-5 years, he'll become what Jason Garrison is now. Big, rock solid defensively, cannon shot.

I recognize that it's not in the Blues' control whether this happens. They could/should look at Suter too. They can think about trades (e.g., Giordano). But if Garrison entertains a Blues offer the Blues should be willing to entrtain this risk. He had 17 goals in 81 games (includes 4 playoff games, he was dinged up) and shot around 9.5%. That accuracy can go up or down year to year but the velocity is there to stay – it's NHL elite. This is not Jay McKee we're talking about here. This is not Eric Brewer, who could carry the puck fluidly zone to zone but became a spastic Jerry Lewis (hey laaaady!) as soon as he gained the blue line. If his accuracy goes down for one of the years, we're talking about, what, 10 goals, ~15 assists, rock solid defense? He's a late bloomer who's just entering his prime. There will be some solid production years which is all gravy over what Jackman brought offensively. He's played for two seasons against the best competition in the NHL and done well. He hits more than Jackman and well more than Colaiacovo. He blocks ~125 shots a season which is barely under Jackman's average (Jackman's a fairly elite defensive defenseman in the league) and way more than Colaiacovo.

Stuart I haven't considered much b/c it seems like he's been pretty open about wanting to be with his family on the West Coast if he's not in Detroit.

EDIT – Bryan Allen is a Carlo Colaiacovo upgrade. I worry that if Petro gets hurt again in the playoffs, and all you did was swap Colaiacovo for Allen, you're still totally screwed. Someone has to provide an offensive element from the back end.

CitizenSnips 06-04-2012 01:19 AM

[QUOTE=PocketNines;50483373
EDIT Bryan Allen is a Carlo Colaiacovo upgrade. I worry that if Petro gets hurt again in the playoffs, and all you did was swap Colaiacovo for Allen, you're still totally screwed. Someone has to provide an offensive element from the back end.[/QUOTE]

I thought about this for a while and believe that Shattenkirk should have a better postseason. He disappeared this year and although he is not at Petro's level, he should be able to do much more than he did.

If we did get Allen, I would like to see Jackman stay on a 1-2 year contract. If we got Giordano by trade or signed Garrison, I would feel much more comfortable about letting Cole play and grabbing another depth d-man (or see what happens with Fairchild, I know he may not be quite ready but I predict he has a great preseason)

simon in canada 06-04-2012 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CitizenSnips (Post 50484177)
I thought about this for a while and believe that Shattenkirk should have a better postseason. He disappeared this year and although he is not at Petro's level, he should be able to do much more than he did.

If we did get Allen, I would like to see Jackman stay on a 1-2 year contract. If we got Giordano by trade or signed Garrison, I would feel much more comfortable about letting Cole play and grabbing another depth d-man (or see what happens with Fairchild, I know he may not be quite ready but I predict he has a great preseason)

I hear you, and you make good points, but when you mentioned Fairchild, you touched a nerve, something I've been dwelling on for a while. I agree, Fairchild is ready to breakout. BUT, that gives us a projected top 6 a year or two from now that includes Fairchild, Shatty and Russell. Lots of puck movement, but very ,very, wimpy. One of those guys has to go in a trade, IMO, and I think it's Fairchild. trade him while his value is high.

BlueDream 06-04-2012 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooliganX2 (Post 50482119)
Instead of arguing about it in the trade forums I thought I would make a thread here. What do people see the left side of our defense looking like next season. I personally think it will most likely be Jackman, Cole and Russel with the possibility of signing a depth guy again like Huskins.

I personally would like an upgrade over Jackman but I just don't see anyone being available for the right price.

Free agents.
Suter
Garrison
Allen
Stuart

Suter would be nice but I am pretty sure we won't be a contender for him. The next guy on the list would Garrison who I think will get paid big by someone that misses out on Suter. I don't think he will end up in our price range. Stuart would be nice but seems to only want to play in CA or Detroit. Allen may or may not be an upgrade on Jackman. Pretty much all of the other FAs would be a step down from Jackman.

Through a trade who is available that we wouldn't have to give up to much depth for that would be an upgrade over Jackman? I honestly cannot think of anyone that is for sure available. Maybe Staal but he would cost a lot in assets to get. Giordano could be an option but I really doubt he is available as the Flames defense would be awful without him.

So how should we upgrade our defense realistically?

There's almost no way this happens after what we just witnessed against LA. The left side needs an upgrade badly and there is just no way that will happen. Signing a depth guy like Huskins would be a disaster. The defense needs more than just that. I'd put the chances of this at 10% or less.

I can see two of those 3 starting but I'd say at least one new d-man that can start will be brought in.

HooliganX2 06-04-2012 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueDream (Post 50486219)
There's almost no way this happens after what we just witnessed against LA. The left side needs an upgrade badly and there is just no way that will happen. Signing a depth guy like Huskins would be a disaster. The defense needs more than just that. I'd put the chances of this at 10% or less.

I can see two of those 3 starting but I'd say at least one new d-man that can start will be brought in.

LA has pretty much made everyone look bad in the playoffs this year. So going just off the LA series is not and end all be all.

Also who do you think we would bring in? Just trying to get a discussion on who people think we can bring in. It's not as easy as people think it is to upgrade our left side IMO.

Personally I think we need someone physical to pair with Pietrangelo.

EastonBlues22 06-04-2012 06:16 AM

Physicality is nice to have, but I think a well-rounded game is more important for top 4 defensemen. IMO, that quality is especially important for anyone playing on the top pairing. I would take a player with Giordano's skill set over a player with Orpik's any day of the week.

PocketNines 06-04-2012 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooliganX2 (Post 50486411)
LA has pretty much made everyone look bad in the playoffs this year. So going just off the LA series is not and end all be all.

Also who do you think we would bring in? Just trying to get a discussion on who people think we can bring in. It's not as easy as people think it is to upgrade our left side IMO.

Personally I think we need someone physical to pair with Pietrangelo.

We come at this differently, obviously, but here's why the LA series importantly exposed a Blues postseason weakness. First, the playoffs are different than the regular season. Different game, played at a much higher tempo. (We used to be used to this back when it was 25x in a row.) Second, each year the Blues are going to have to conquer at least one team over a seven game series who can put pressure on our D the way LA did. It doesn't matter if it's LA specifically it's about the Blues.

The guy we need to be the top pairing guy can play tons of minutes and won't be one-dimensional. He needs to be, as the tired refrain goes, a legitimate top-pair defender. I've not been a big fan of some of the names because they aren't legitimate top pair defenders (Allen, Carle, etc.). They're more middle pair who may or may not thrive playing with far better partners, but they can't do it on their own. When Pietrangelo goes down injured, the whole freaking team falls apart. That has to be remedied or you're just asking for trouble IMO.

As for easy or hard, we don't know. Either way, we know it's their job. Whichever team signs Garrison, from their perspective it will have been relatively easy. They offered, he accepted. It's not all 30 teams who'll be bidding for him. And if not him or Suter, there are trade options. I'm sure the Blues have a good idea what their universe of options are at this point. Who knows if they're "hard" or "easy," but to simply assume "hard" and thus assume "90%" likelihood (trade board conversation reference) that it's Cole-Jackman-Russell as the three LDs seems to me more like simply not wanting to be disappointed.

execwrite 06-04-2012 09:22 AM

Kuba
Allen
Cole

Harks 06-04-2012 10:52 AM

Anyone knows what's going to happen with Danny Syvret? Europe-bound or another year likely in the A's?

frostyflo 06-04-2012 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon in canada (Post 50485117)
I hear you, and you make good points, but when you mentioned Fairchild, you touched a nerve, something I've been dwelling on for a while. I agree, Fairchild is ready to breakout. BUT, that gives us a projected top 6 a year or two from now that includes Fairchild, Shatty and Russell. Lots of puck movement, but very ,very, wimpy. One of those guys has to go in a trade, IMO, and I think it's Fairchild. trade him while his value is high.

I doubt you`ll get much for a guy who didn`t see much NHL time yet

HooliganX2 06-04-2012 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by execwrite (Post 50488599)
Kuba
Allen
Cole

Big no on Kuba on on top pairing.

Celtic Note 06-04-2012 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooliganX2 (Post 50496841)
Big no on Kuba on on top pairing.

Out of interest, why do you oppose having Kuba on the top pairing?

Celtic Note 06-04-2012 02:43 PM

For sake of discussion, here are the 50 LHD with the most TOI/G this past season:

1. Brian Campbell 26:53
2. Duncan Keith 26:53
3. Ryan Suter 26:30
4. Jay Bouwmeester 25:57
5. Francois Beauchemin 25:33
6. Dion Phaneuf 25:17
7. Zdeno Chara 25:00
8. Ryan McDonagh 24:44
9. Fedor Tyutin 24:08
10. Dennis Seidenberg 24:04
11. Alexander Edler 23:51
12. Tobias Enstrom 23:50
13. Nicklas Lidstrom 23:46
14. Jack Johnson 23:46
15. Jason Garrison 23:41
16. Filip Kuba 23:36
17. Dan Hamhuis 23:25
18. Mark Streit 23:22
19. Andrew MacDonald 23:22
20. Eric Brewer 23:16
21. Cam Fowler 23:15
22. Nikita Nikitin 23:11
23. Marc-Edouard Vlasic 23:09
24. Victor Hedman 23:05
25. Christian Ehrhoff 23:03
26. Matt Carle 23:01
27. Mark Giordano 23:01
28. Paul Martin 23:00
29. Niklas Kronwall 22:51
30. Justin Faulk 22:50
31. Alex Goligoski 22:46
32. Josh Gorges 22:37
33. Brooks Orpik 22:33
34. Chris Pronger 22:28
35. Michael Del Zotto 22:26
36. Jordan Leopold 22:22
37. Keith Yandle 22:20
38. Joni Pitkanen 22:18
39. Sergei Gonchar 22:15
40. Willie Mitchell 22:13
41. Oliver Ekman-Larsson 22:06
42. Nick Leddy 22:04
43. Braydon Coburn 22:02
44. Kyle Quincey 21:51
45. Dmitry Kulikov 21:51
46. Marco Scandella 21:46
47. Carl Gunnarsson 21:42
48. Trevor Daley 21:38
49. Chris Butler 21:36
50. Jake Gardiner 21:35

kimzey59 06-04-2012 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtic Note (Post 50498115)
Out of interest, why do you oppose having Kuba on the top pairing?

I oppose Kuba period.
IMO Kuba is a lesser version of Colaiacovo.
Average Offensive ability, Mediocre at best defense, no physical game to speak of and fairly injury prone.

I'd rather bring Cola back for another year than take a flier on Kuba.

execwrite 06-04-2012 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooliganX2 (Post 50496841)
Big no on Kuba on on top pairing.

Kuba 2011-12 paired with Karlsson

NHL GP-73 G-6 A-26 PTs-32 PIM-26 Plus-Minus- +26

puckerdude10 06-04-2012 04:28 PM

Why dont we look at philly for defense this year. I know they have some guys leaving free agency and some injuries but aren Lilja, Coburn, Timmonen, Mezjores, Gustofson and Grossman all lefties (I know my spelling blows im to lazy to fix it after work). I see a couple of names that I wouldnt mind. What do you guys think?

Celtic Note 06-04-2012 05:11 PM

The 51- 65 range of LHD in TOI (20:30 min.)

51. John-Michael Liles 21:20
52. Henrik Tallinder 21:18
53. Kimmo Timonen 21:14
54. Ron Hainsey 21:05
55. Brad Stuart 21:03
56. Ryan Whitney 20:57
57. Ladislav Smid 20:54
58. Lubomir Visnovsky 20:47
59. Karl Alzner 20:52
60. Tim Gleason 20:42
61. Jan Hejda 20:40
62. Barret Jackman 20:40
63. Andrej Meszaros 20:39
64. Rob Scuderi 20:36
65. Jay Harrison 20:33

PocketNines 06-04-2012 05:58 PM

32yo Bryan Allen doesn't make that list. I want to be clear that I don't hate the guy but I think anyone who would be expecting him to be a top-pair two-way solution is setting him or herself up for disappointment. And, as a second-pair guy, not only is Jackman superior but I'd rather give Cole an opportunity if the choice is Cole vs. Allen. The reason for that is the savings between Cole and Allen lets you pay for a significantly better player for the top pairing. Secondarily, Cole and Shattenkirk have a leg up on the chemistry issue.

The Grouch 06-04-2012 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketNines (Post 50507631)
32yo Bryan Allen doesn't make that list. I want to be clear that I don't hate the guy but I think anyone who would be expecting him to be a top-pair two-way solution is setting him or herself up for disappointment. And, as a second-pair guy, not only is Jackman superior but I'd rather give Cole an opportunity if the choice is Cole vs. Allen. The reason for that is the savings between Cole and Allen lets you pay for a significantly better player for the top pairing. Secondarily, Cole and Shattenkirk have a leg up on the chemistry issue.


Agreed! I wouldn't mind replacing Jackman with the right player(Ryan Suter looks good in Blue ;)), but Bryan Allen definitely isn't that player. Here is a comparison of their last three season's...

PlayerJackmanAllen
GP207228
G39
A4035
Pts.4344
+/-+26-10
ATOI21:2118:53
TGVT17.306.70

A lot of Blues fans won't admit it, but Barret Jackman is one of the more solid defensemen in the league. He continues to be underrated by his own fanbase.

ManyIdeas 06-04-2012 07:55 PM

I love Jax, tbh. He does make some bonehead moves occasionally but he gets under skin and plays above average-great defense depending on the night.

The problem is, it's time for Cole to start playing, and Cole doesn't need top pairing minutes yet/doesnt mesh with Pie as well as needed, and Jax can't do top pairing minutes from what we've seen.

Crumblin Erb Brooks 06-04-2012 08:22 PM

I have no problem with how Jackman has played for us. He always gets tough minutes, brings added toughness, and played well with Shatty for the majority of the season.

My issue with re-signing him is that he is 31 and he is a player that isnt likely to age well. By the end of each season, he is always the guy most banged up. He isnt a big guy and he doesnt have any plus physical ability.

Certainly there is a loyalty factor that should be considered here, as he is the longest tenured St. Louis athlete at the moment and undoubtedly a positive presence for the team both on and off the ice. In short, the guy is a true throwback and has been a warrior for this franchise. But where does loyalty end and a tough decision need to be made?

From Jax's statements, it seems like he wants to be back, and this should be certainly taken into consideration. With money being equal, a lot of players may still choose another franchise (coastal, big city or Canadian preferences, etc.) over us. We dont want to let him go, lose out on the bigger names in free agency and be left out in the cold. That is when teams start making desperate decisions, throwing out a big contract or making a bad trade for a need.

2 Minute Minor 06-04-2012 09:53 PM

I'm a fan of Jackman, but I think its in both his and the team's best interest to move on.

For the team: they have a talented guy that is projected to fill about the same role (Cole) who is cost-controlled. For the minor step back in inexperience, they gain flexibility with the team salary structure. As much as Cole has some learning lumps to take, Jackman has some physical decline to endure.

For Jackman, he's still in his prime to the point where he can command a decent annual salary in this contract. He's taken a pay cut to stay with the Blues last time. I think he will be better appreciated and better paid if he plays the next stint with another team. Its not hard to imagine him receiving a warm welcome in Edmonton.


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