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-   -   Post Game Talk: Who do you blame more: Trotz or the players. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1206969)

Firestorm 06-12-2012 07:59 PM

Who do you blame more: Trotz or the players.
 
In the last "blame" thread, the players weren't mentioned. I took Poile out of this choice because we all can agree that he made steps at the time to solidify the team.

So that leaves, Trotz (the guy who put Brandon Yip on the powerplay) or the players (who missed the nets left right and centre).

Who do you blame more if you had to choose and why? Both is not an option.

Mods: please leave this thread by itself.

VFL615* 06-12-2012 08:18 PM

Since i cannot vote. The players.

Joe T Choker 06-12-2012 08:18 PM

Got to go with Trotz, one hour late for curfew is all that needs to be said, one game is understandable, 2 is not, and add in Brandon Yip on the Power play is ridiculous

NoNecksCurse 06-12-2012 08:23 PM

at first, I was 50/50 .. then, i blamed the players more. now, after letting the disappointment soak in, id put most of the blame on trotz/team leadership.

the team poile assembled shouldn't have went out like they did against the coyotes. i could care less how "hot" smith was. i credit it more to the fact our forwards have the offensive output of greg johnson come playoff time

triggrman 06-13-2012 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse (Post 50846343)
at first, I was 50/50 .. then, i blamed the players more. now, after letting the disappointment soak in, id put most of the blame on trotz/team leadership.

the team poile assembled shouldn't have went out like they did against the coyotes. i could care less how "hot" smith was. i credit it more to the fact our forwards have the offensive output of greg johnson come playoff time

I think it's as much on the players as it is Trotz and neither got it done. SK was invisible, Yip shouldn't have been in the line-up, I'd put Tootoo in way before Yip.

NshPredFan 06-13-2012 11:07 AM

First off---hello everyone. I've been lurking but not posting so this is my first post on this board.

I think there's plenty of blame to go around but ultimately I think Trotz is responsible for making sure the team functions as a team and that they are ready to go each and every game. Game 1 wasn't bad but I swear game 2 the team looked like they had never even played together. Game 3 and 4--suspensions--well we really don't need to go there.

Firestorm 06-13-2012 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NshPredFan (Post 50863593)
First off---hello everyone. I've been lurking but not posting so this is my first post on this board.

I think there's plenty of blame to go around but ultimately I think Trotz is responsible for making sure the team functions as a team and that they are ready to go each and every game. Game 1 wasn't bad but I swear game 2 the team looked like they had never even played together. Game 3 and 4--suspensions--well we really don't need to go there.

Welcome! :handclap:

Roman Yoshi 06-13-2012 11:12 AM

Trotz and team leadership. Trotz was simply out coached.

PredsV82 06-13-2012 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hustlechuck24 (Post 50863721)
Trotz and team leadership. Trotz was simply out coached.

I dont understand this reasoning. By all accounts the preds outplayed Phoenix in 4 of the 5 games but still lost. To me that means that the system trotz had in place was working, but the players failed to convert their control of flow and ice time to goals.

Rinne got outplayed game 1, and the players failed to capitalize on their chances in games 4 and 5.


How many missed open nets can you blame trotz for?

glenngineer 06-13-2012 11:43 AM

It's both Trotz and the players. Trotz has to put players in a position to succeed AND the players must execute. Trotz had Yip on the PP, enough said. The players missed on glorious chances, enough said.

At the end of the day the coach has to make adjustments to what the other team is doing. I have felt that Trotz with enough time can figure things out but in a game day situation, I have felt he lacks the ability to make changes to what the other team is doing. I also feel that the players intensity is lacking in certain situations. After Detroit the boys took the pedal off the metal so to speak and they weren't ready for Phoenix. That is on them and the coaching staff.

We ran with certain lines that weren't getting it done, and while that falls on the players for not burying chances, the coaches need to make line changes to help get over that hump. Phoenix played a better team game than we did. Is that Trotz and/or the players or was it just Phoenix and Tippett on top of their game? I think it was a little of both to be quite honest.

Roman Yoshi 06-13-2012 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PredsV82 (Post 50864631)
I dont understand this reasoning. By all accounts the preds outplayed Phoenix in 4 of the 5 games but still lost. To me that means that the system trotz had in place was working, but the players failed to convert their control of flow and ice time to goals.

Rinne got outplayed game 1, and the players failed to capitalize on their chances in games 4 and 5.


How many missed open nets can you blame trotz for?

When Yip is on your first power play unit and other questionable roster decisions are made, it is easy to question the coach. Ultimately, the coach is the one who makes the roster decisions. Trotz consistently fails to make good changes in the playoffs. He was horribly out coached by Tippett in pretty much every decision.

I don't think we outplayed PHX in 4 games. While we may have had more shots, doesn't mean they were good shots.

TMI 06-13-2012 12:21 PM

They all failed to make the proper adjustments to overcome the Coyotes, so I say both.

JAHF, would you be OK with me adding a 'both' option to the poll, or would you rather leave it the way it is?

token grinder 06-13-2012 12:43 PM

trotz hit the posts. trotz took the lazy stick penalties in the offensive zone. trotz lost the faceoff in game one that led to the goal in OT.

even the game we lost at home, trotz hit a few posts. Trotz fell down and let doan get away and find open space in front of the net and scored the games only goal.

The only thinig I would object to is Yip on the PP. I understand it, I just don't agree with it.

TMI 06-13-2012 01:57 PM

It isn't always about the small moments. Strategies can be adjusted. The players are responsible for what happens on the ice (i.e. missing open nets, hitting posts, missing defensive assignments). Coaches are responsible for making adjustments to how the game is being played (players are responsible for implementing those changes), and for preparing the team for the games before they are played. If only the players are responsible for a loss when someone misses an open net, or someone misses a defensive assignment, then coaches would virtually always be off the hook.

They're in it together. When they succeed, they succeed together. When they fail, they fail together.

token grinder 06-13-2012 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThirdManIn (Post 50870591)
They're in it together. When they succeed, they succeed together. When they fail, they fail together.

exactly. you can't blame one and not the other.

Iron Duke 06-13-2012 02:15 PM

Seems moot to me. Regardless of fault, if we had somehow made it past Phoenix, we were going to face a buzzsaw of a team that has had our number for the past couple years in the Kings. No way I see us getting through the WCF.

Preds Partisan 06-13-2012 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThirdManIn (Post 50870591)
They're in it together. When they succeed, they succeed together. When they fail, they fail together.

What a former college player said to me at a cookout this weekend: "....all these years in the playoffs, and they STILL don't look like they're ready for prime time...." referring to the coaching staff AND the players as equally guilty.

PredsV82 06-13-2012 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Duke (Post 50871363)
Seems moot to me. Regardless of fault, if we had somehow made it past Phoenix, we were going to face a buzzsaw of a team that has had our number for the past couple years in the Kings. No way I see us getting through the WCF.

I still think the season would have been viewed as a significant success had we made the WCF's

but losing in round 2, badly, to a team almost everyone assumed we should beat, made the whole year seem like a failure

that said, I still dont see how you blame the coach for a whole lot of players not performing the way they had done the whole year. Yip was on the PP because the other higher paid schulbs werent doing squat, so might as well put a kid who will hustle out there.


If we were outcoached so badly, how did we dominate ice time and control flow so well? Everyone who is saying Trotz failed to make adjustments are the same people who have trashed him before when he juggles lines trying to find success... you cant have it both ways...

Firestorm 06-13-2012 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThirdManIn (Post 50866329)
They all failed to make the proper adjustments to overcome the Coyotes, so I say both.

JAHF, would you be OK with me adding a 'both' option to the poll, or would you rather leave it the way it is?

I want to leave it how it is, if I had a both option, then people would vote for it.

VFL615* 06-13-2012 04:35 PM

Trotz has the players ready. It is players that did not get it done, period. If you think otherwise go back and watch the games a little more closely. You can only hit the post so many times, fail to make passes so many times, turn it over in the offensive zone so many times, be light on the puck and turn it over so many times, break team rules in the PLAYOFFS so many times, and lastly RADS AND AK WERE SUSPENDED FOR ONE GAME NOT TWO. You guys would hate me as a coach because Yip, Smith, Hali, Tootoo would have been playing over a lot of people. I do not blame Trotz one bit for giving a Yip a chance.

VFL615* 06-13-2012 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VFL615 (Post 50877453)
Trotz has the players ready. It is players that did not get it done, period. If you think otherwise go back and watch the games a little more closely. You can only hit the post so many times, fail to make passes so many times, turn it over in the offensive zone so many times, be light on the puck and turn it over so many times, break team rules in the PLAYOFFS so many times, and lastly RADS AND AK WERE SUSPENDED FOR ONE GAME NOT TWO. You guys would hate me as a coach because Yip, Smith, Hali, Tootoo would have been playing over a lot of people. I do not blame Trotz one bit for giving a Yip a chance.

I forgot one miss a wide open freakin net so many times!!!!

kp61c 06-14-2012 01:49 AM

team wins, coach losses. its as simple as that
the decision to bench rads and ak for the second game was moronic and it eventually bit you in your ass

torero 06-14-2012 04:10 AM

OK ak and rads go for a walk at night ! yeah ... ok. Not good. we all agree.

but then, you can punish them with 1000's of ways ... money, extra exercise ...

but bench them in the playoffs :facepalm:

At the time i put a comment and got lit on by guys saying they were proud for a team bold enough to take such a fair decision !!

Today you have the price.

All people agreeing on that were guilty.
Because Trotz asked around him ... and it is the movement that gave him strength in his decision.
(obviously Trotz agreed as well ... and has the decision ... yet in the US you have the consensual view that has always been very important and the way he communicated with the press, it was obvious that he didn't want to take the decision by his own ... )

29dryden29 06-14-2012 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThirdManIn (Post 50866329)
They all failed to make the proper adjustments to overcome the Coyotes, so I say both.

JAHF, would you be OK with me adding a 'both' option to the poll, or would you rather leave it the way it is?

Both would be the best option, given the choices I chose players as they were playing the game and failed to execute.

NshPredFan 06-14-2012 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by torero (Post 50898517)
OK ak and rads go for a walk at night ! yeah ... ok. Not good. we all agree.

but then, you can punish them with 1000's of ways ... money, extra exercise ...

but bench them in the playoffs :facepalm:

At the time i put a comment and got lit on by guys saying they were proud for a team bold enough to take such a fair decision !!

Today you have the price.

All people agreeing on that were guilty.
Because Trotz asked around him ... and it is the movement that gave him strength in his decision.
(obviously Trotz agreed as well ... and has the decision ... yet in the US you have the consensual view that has always been very important and the way he communicated with the press, it was obvious that he didn't want to take the decision by his own ... )

I was not terribly unhappy about the one game benching assuming that they would have applied this punishment to "anyone" on the team that had made the stupid decision to miss curfew. Could they have fined them or something and caused less drama? Probably. I do however think that Trotz painted himself into a corner when he told the press he wouldn't change the line up after game 3 if they did well. Well, they won, mostly because of luck in the first period, not because they played particularly well. Had he kept his mouth shut about line-up decisions, he could have and probably would have put Rad and AK (or at least one of them) back in for game 4. Would it have made a difference? Maybe, maybe not. We will never know.


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