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-   -   Proposal: Ana-Columbus (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1210249)

AmericanRocket91 06-18-2012 04:16 AM

Ana-Columbus
 
Derick Brassard

for

Cogliano + one of our better prospects (Brandon McMillan/Maroon/Clarke etc)


DSP-Getzy-Perry
Ryan-Brassard-Etem/ Palmieri
?-Koivu-Selanne
Belesky-Holland/Bonino-?

JabbaJabba 06-18-2012 04:29 AM

There's no way that Columbus does this. Also I wouldn't call those players our best prospects.

Exit Dose 06-18-2012 04:40 AM

One of our better prospects?

Elvs 06-18-2012 04:48 AM

McMillan, Maroon and Clark doesn't hold any value in a deal for Brassard. Maybe Holland and the Ducks 1st round pick in 2013 could get it done, but even then, I don't know... If they trade Brassard, Mark Letestu becomes their top line center, unless they make another trade (I guess one could come in the Nash trade) or somehow end up getting Jokinen this summer.

AmericanRocket91 06-18-2012 02:19 PM

I offered up what I did because I'm thinking when Nash gets dealt, the Blue Jackets will receive a young center( like a Stepan) and draft either Alex Galchenyuk/ Mikhail Grigorenko.

Duck Off 06-18-2012 02:51 PM

Let's go all out.

To Anaheim: Brassard, 2nd overall

To Columbus: 6th overall, Holland, Rakkel, Cogliano, 2nd round pick.

My reasoning:

2nd overall=Holland+6th overall

Brassard=Cogs (salary), 2nd, Rakkel

DuckJet 06-18-2012 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 (Post 51049913)
Let's go all out.

To Anaheim: Brassard, 2nd overall

To Columbus: 6th overall, Holland, Rakkel, Cogliano, 2nd round pick.

My reasoning:

2nd overall=Holland+6th overall

Brassard=Cogs (salary), 2nd, Rakkel

Coming from the guy who thinks Krejci is worth our next two first rounders, that's funny.

Exit Dose 06-18-2012 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckJet (Post 51053749)
Coming from the guy who thinks Krejci is worth our next two first rounders, that's funny.

Oh would you shut up with that. This is two threads you've brought that up in, today. You're coming very close to trolling.

DuckJet 06-18-2012 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit Dose (Post 51053979)
Oh would you shut up with that. This is two threads you've brought that up in, today. You're coming very close to trolling.

I'm waiting to see an explanation...backing his claim up...was he kidding? Was he serious? Why does he feel Krejci is worth the same value as Phil Kessel and more than double Seymon Varlamov's?

Exit Dose 06-18-2012 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckJet (Post 51054179)
I'm waiting to see an explanation...backing his claim up...was he kidding? Was he serious? Why does he feel Krejci is worth the same value as Phil Kessel and more than double Seymon Varlamov's?

Seeing as Krejci is a very talented player, and we're desperate for a center, I think you can draw the connection that everyone else that read it did.

DuckJet 06-18-2012 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit Dose (Post 51054265)
Seeing as Krejci is a very talented player, and we're desperate for a center, I think you can draw the connection that everyone else that read it did.

If we can get him ++ for Ryan...I don't see how crippling our draft imports is fair value. This year is 6th overall. Next year there could be a lockout and it could go as high as 1st overall.

Kreci isn't as good as Kessel and we saw how that trade boned the Leafs.

Which would you rather have? Tyler Seguin+Dougie Hamilton or Phil Kessel? And then conversely, would you rather have Krejci or Kessel?

Exit Dose 06-18-2012 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckJet (Post 51054485)
If we can get him ++ for Ryan...I don't see how crippling our draft imports is fair value. This year is 6th overall. Next year there could be a lockout and it could go as high as 1st overall.

Kreci isn't as good as Kessel and we saw how that trade boned the Leafs.

Which would you rather have? Tyler Seguin+Dougie Hamilton or Phil Kessel? And then conversely, would you rather have Krejci or Kessel?

None of this matters. You have a difference of opinion. Get over it. You are going from thread to thread derailing them. Give it a rest.

DuckJet 06-18-2012 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit Dose (Post 51054719)
None of this matters. You have a difference of opinion. Get over it. You are going from thread to thread derailing it. Give it a rest.

Fine. I apologize...I do see how it can get annoying.

As far as this thread goes, I didn't de-rail much. Columbus won't do it.

Paul4587 06-18-2012 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckJet (Post 51054179)
I'm waiting to see an explanation...backing his claim up...was he kidding? Was he serious? Why does he feel Krejci is worth the same value as Phil Kessel and more than double Seymon Varlamov's?

Kessel got two firsts and a second which ended up being #2, #9 and #32 picks. How is that package the same as a #6 and in all likelihood a #15-25 pick? Sure, the Toronto picks weren't guaranteed to be that high when the trade was made but even with Kessel, the Leafs were expected to struggle and miss the playoffs. As for Varlamov, goalies have far less value in trades than forwards or defenseman.

Our next two firsts for Krejci certainly isn't far off fair value (I have no idea why Boston would move Krejci for futures but I think Boston would have to add something to that deal if they did). If either of those picks ended up being as good as Krejci is, we would be thrilled.

Duck Off 06-19-2012 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckJet (Post 51054179)
I'm waiting to see an explanation...backing his claim up...was he kidding? Was he serious? Why does he feel Krejci is worth the same value as Phil Kessel and more than double Seymon Varlamov's?

No I wasn't kidding, and your immature way of handling it is pathetic. All you had to do was ask. Did you really mention it in other threads? That's pathetic. I'd expect it from a Leafs or Canucks fan, but not a fellow Duck fan. And with all due respect to Exit, that is not borderline trolling, that is trolling, well that's been about par for what's been considered trolling since I've been a member of these boards.

As for the explanation you want so badly:

First let me ask this: Would you do 6th overall + Holland for Krejci? If some of you would not, I respect that, but I sure as hell would. A 1st and good prospect is at least going the other way to obtain a player like Krejci. I believe I value Krejci much higher then most though. I personally take him over Staal right now any day. I think they are comparable players, but Krejci is locked up long term at a great dollar amount, where as Staal is going to receive a huge raise. That easily makes up for the slight advantage Staal has over Krejci talent wise IMO. Anyway back to the topic, I believe that if we obtain a player like Krejci for a package of futures (2 1sts or 1st+Holland), our lineup would look like the following:

UFA/DSP-Getzlaf-Perry
Ryan-Krejci-Palmieri
Cogliano-Koivu-Selanne
Beleskey/UFA-Bonino-UFA
Beleskey/UFA

While I think we are still a top defenseman away from being a contender, I do believe that with consistent play from Hiller, it's easily a playoff team. It may be a short playoff run, but I think at worst, the pick would be around 15th-19th. It should also be noted that I definitely do not believe there will be a lockout at all. Both sides saw what happened after the last lockout, and there is no doubt in my mind both won't let that happen.

My point is that I don't see a huge difference in value between Holland and next year's 1st IF we obtained Krejci for future pieces. I believe that almost everyone here would be willing to move 6th overall + Holland for Krejci, and personally I feel that people overrate 1st round picks, especially when position of them is not set.

I believe this team is really only two big pieces away from being a contender (2nd line center and number one defenseman). If we add one of those, I'd say we are easily a playoff team (obviously depending on who we get), and possibly a 2nd round playoff team.

If you disagree with all of this, that's 100% fine. I don't care, but don't troll, especially going out of your way in other threads, that's pathetic and screams Leaf fan (no offense to leaf fans, but the amount of trolls on this website is crazy). Don't give Duck fans here a bad name. Maybe you've asked me to elaborate on this subject before and I didn't? That's a possibility. Due to new job and family, 99% of my posting on here is now done through phone, and it's very hard to type a long post on an IPhone (I can't even quote long posts, wtf?), so often times I tell myself to get on the computer and respond to it later, and honestly I just forget sometimes. If that was the case I'm sorry, but don't ruin the boards because of it.

Duck Off 06-19-2012 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul4587 (Post 51055063)
Kessel got two firsts and a second which ended up being #2, #9 and #32 picks. How is that package the same as a #6 and in all likelihood a #15-25 pick? Sure, the Toronto picks weren't guaranteed to be that high when the trade was made but even with Kessel, the Leafs were expected to struggle and miss the playoffs. As for Varlamov, goalies have far less value in trades than forwards or defenseman.

Our next two firsts for Krejci certainly isn't far off fair value (I have no idea why Boston would move Krejci for futures but I think Boston would have to add something to that deal if they did). If either of those picks ended up being as good as Krejci is, we would be thrilled.

I addressed most of what he said in my post before this, but I forgot to add what you mentioned about Varlamov. As you said, goalies generally don't have the vaule forwards have. Look what Turris got, and he had proved NOTHING. Hell didn't Washington trade a 1st for a 3rd liner last year?

Also, in EVERY thread before this where I mentioned moving futures for Krejci, I said it was doubtful that they'd even consider it, and the only way they'd do it was if they wanted to move salary to chase a big FA name to address a different position (Suter or Parise for example). Moving a position where they are deep at (center) would be most likely. Now I don't expect it to happen, and I've always said so when discussing it in the past.

Ducks DVM 06-19-2012 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul4587 (Post 51055063)
Kessel got two firsts and a second which ended up being #2, #9 and #32 picks. How is that package the same as a #6 and in all likelihood a #15-25 pick? Sure, the Toronto picks weren't guaranteed to be that high when the trade was made but even with Kessel, the Leafs were expected to struggle and miss the playoffs. As for Varlamov, goalies have far less value in trades than forwards or defenseman.

Our next two firsts for Krejci certainly isn't far off fair value (I have no idea why Boston would move Krejci for futures but I think Boston would have to add something to that deal if they did). If either of those picks ended up being as good as Krejci is, we would be thrilled.

This is the one thing that I don't get about the draft pick trade discussions. There are several players who get drafted around the 6th position who are #1 defenseman, 1C, top line W players. I'm aware that draft picks can bust. But there's a reasonable chance (at least 50%) to get a better player (eventually) than Krejci at the 6th. I'd actually be disappointed to get a good 2C (Krejci) out of that position in the draft. Even if you want to say its only a 30% chance to get a 1C/1D/1W that is still higher than what Krejci's chances of being a legitimate 1C will ever be.

I'm aware you have to give up value for established players, and the Ducks may (or may not) be in win now mode. But teams historically don't give up draft picks that high except for legitimate top line/pairing players.

Duck Off 06-19-2012 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducks DVM (Post 51073557)
This is the one thing that I don't get about the draft pick trade discussions. There are several players who get drafted around the 6th position who are #1 defenseman, 1C, top line W players. I'm aware that draft picks can bust. But there's a reasonable chance (at least 50%) to get a better player (eventually) than Krejci at the 6th. I'd actually be disappointed to get a good 2C (Krejci) out of that position in the draft. Even if you want to say its only a 30% chance to get a 1C/1D/1W that is still higher than what Krejci's chances of being a legitimate 1C will ever be.

I'm aware you have to give up value for established players, and the Ducks may (or may not) be in win now mode. But teams historically don't give up draft picks that high except for legitimate top line/pairing players.

I respectfully disagree. I'm not sure where it is, it was somewhere on the trade boards, but someone posted the past players taken at 6, and the list wasn't that impressive at all. I say your 50% number is way off.

I also question your value of a 1st line center. Krejci has averaged 63 points a year for the past 4 seasons. That's better then Staal, Plekanac, and Weiss. That's also even with what M.Richards. You're saying that the 6th overall has a 50% chance of having as much of an impact as some of these guys? I must disagree my friend. Krejci isn't a great 1st line center option, but he's an excellent 2nd line center.

I am curious though, would you do a Holland+6th overall for Krejci swap?

All I know is that if we just keep stocking up these prospects and never doing anything with them, we're going to become used to mediocrity. It takes the right combination of developing them, and using them to be successful. The Kings for example. They stock piled them, and then they used them to obtain impact players. They traded great assets for Richards. They gave up a 1st for Carter because their prospect pool was already deep. I'm not saying we need to mimic the Kings, but I'm pointing out that Murray said he liked to have a deep prospect pool in order to swing a big move. Personally I'd take advantage of the great contracts we have on the team. Actually I've been saying this for the past 3 seasons.

Koffein 06-19-2012 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducks DVM (Post 51073557)
This is the one thing that I don't get about the draft pick trade discussions. There are several players who get drafted around the 6th position who are #1 defenseman, 1C, top line W players. I'm aware that draft picks can bust. But there's a reasonable chance (at least 50%) to get a better player (eventually) than Krejci at the 6th. I'd actually be disappointed to get a good 2C (Krejci) out of that position in the draft. Even if you want to say its only a 30% chance to get a 1C/1D/1W that is still higher than what Krejci's chances of being a legitimate 1C will ever be.

I'm aware you have to give up value for established players, and the Ducks may (or may not) be in win now mode. But teams historically don't give up draft picks that high except for legitimate top line/pairing players.

I'm excited about the pick, but expecting the player to be a 1st liner for sure might disappoint you. How many of the previous 10 6th overall picks would you concider better than Krejci?

2011: Mika Zibanejad
2010: Brett Connolly
2009: Oliver Ekman-Larsson
2008: Nikita Filatov
2007: Sam Gagner
2006: Derick Brassard
2005: Gilbert Brule
2004: Al Montoya
2003: Milan Michalek
2002: Scottie Upshall

To me that seems like less than 50% first liners. Getting a 2nd line center isn't such a bad thing.

Exit Dose 06-19-2012 02:05 AM

I think that approach is backwards. You don't look at who was picked at six. You look at who was available. Columbus for instance was looking at Kopitar, but either their owner or GM killed that pick because they were worried about his heritage. Judging by our picks in the last few drafts, I expect us to be less prone to mistakes than say Columbus or Edmonton were.

Jesus Teemu 06-19-2012 02:09 AM

There isn't anything inherent about the 6th pick that says you'll get a "meh" player. There could be other picks around that spot that turn out to be much better.

I see what Duckstud is saying though, and I somewhat agree. I guess what's holding me back is the fact that I don't feel we are 'there' yet, if you know what I mean. We'll see, this draft will probably be a bit crazy.

edit-Exit Dose already got some of what I said above

Duck Off 06-19-2012 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit Dose (Post 51073903)
I think that approach is backwards. You don't look at who was picked at six. You look at who was available. Columbus for instance was looking at Kopitar, but either their owner or GM killed that pick because they were worried about his heritage. Judging by our picks in the last few drafts, I expect us to be less prone to mistakes than say Columbus or Edmonton were.

I don't think so. Every single year, there's always going to be someone who should have been picked instead of this person. You have to factor in that you're not always going to select the right guy. My main point was against the statement that said you have a 50% chance of obtaining someone with as much value as Krejci at 6th overall, and I just think that's flat wrong.

Duck Off 06-19-2012 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus Teemu (Post 51073943)
There isn't anything inherent about the 6th pick that says you'll get a "meh" player. There could be other picks around that spot that turn out to be much better.

I see what Duckstud is saying though, and I somewhat agree. I guess what's holding me back is the fact that I don't feel we are 'there' yet, if you know what I mean. We'll see, this draft will probably be a bit crazy.

edit-Exit Dose already got some of what I said above

I understand this completely, and I somewhat agree in a way. IMO the time to take advantage of all of the cheap contracts was two or three offseasons ago, and I was adament about it then as well. I do think this team could do some damage with another 2nd line center like Krejci though. If Hiller could play consistently and Fowler and Sbisa could take another step, we could be a sleeper in the west. Part of me wants to just see it happen for Teemu though. I hated last year more then anything simply because I knew it was going to be one of his last seasons. I also feel its time to make a drastic move like that because of how deep our prospect pool is.

Ducks DVM 06-19-2012 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 (Post 51073801)
I respectfully disagree. I'm not sure where it is, it was somewhere on the trade boards, but someone posted the past players taken at 6, and the list wasn't that impressive at all. I say your 50% number is way off.

I also question your value of a 1st line center. Krejci has averaged 63 points a year for the past 4 seasons. That's better then Staal, Plekanac, and Weiss. That's also even with what M.Richards. You're saying that the 6th overall has a 50% chance of having as much of an impact as some of these guys? I must disagree my friend. Krejci isn't a great 1st line center option, but he's an excellent 2nd line center.

I am curious though, would you do a Holland+6th overall for Krejci swap?

All I know is that if we just keep stocking up these prospects and never doing anything with them, we're going to become used to mediocrity. It takes the right combination of developing them, and using them to be successful. The Kings for example. They stock piled them, and then they used them to obtain impact players. They traded great assets for Richards. They gave up a 1st for Carter because their prospect pool was already deep. I'm not saying we need to mimic the Kings, but I'm pointing out that Murray said he liked to have a deep prospect pool in order to swing a big move. Personally I'd take advantage of the great contracts we have on the team. Actually I've been saying this for the past 3 seasons.

I would not do the Holland + 6. Holland plus a mid-round 1st I would do. And don't look at the players picked only at 6, look from 6-9. At any one position there's going to be some skewing of the results because of what was on teams particular needs. I think we can take Staal off that list based on his prior performances (70 is his bad year), Richards also had the Selke nomination bringing the price up, but the other guys are either low end 1C's or high end 2C's. None of them are centers who carry your first line IMO. The Kings can also spend to the cap. The Ducks can't. Having a high value ELC player will be more important. And I don't think that Krejci makes the Ducks a cup contender like Richards and Carter did for LA. Honestly, I don't think Krejci is available regardless.

50% is way too high, but OEL, Suter, Koivu, Phaneuf, Hamilton, Couture, Setoguchi, Skinner, Okposo were all picked between 6-9. You trade a home run swing for a good player. I think "thrilled" is too strong a term. There are several defensemen who project to top pairing and several wings that project to top pairing as well as several centers who project to the same level as Krejci. Several will bust, several won't. Watching Boston have the Ducks top pairing defenseman for the next 15-20 years while the Ducks have a good #2 for a couple years doesn't "thrill me". Granted he could bust and run off to the KHL or something, but he might not. It's not like the mid-1st guys where you are thrilled just to get a decent roster player.

EDIT - The fact that Columbus has had the 6th pick 3 of the last 7 years has to be taken into account when evaluating the bustiness of the 6th pick. Their scouting and GM are, well, shall we say they're not Detroit?

Elvs 06-19-2012 04:09 AM

#6 overall picks between 1995-2008

2008: Nikita Filatov
2007: Sam Gagner
2006: Derick Brassard
2005: Gilbert Brule
2004: Al Montoya
2003: Milan Michalek
2002: Scottie Upshall
2001: Mikko Koivu
2000: Scott Hartnell
1999: Brian Finley
1998: Rico Fata
1997: Daniel Tkaczuk
1996: Boyd Devereaux
1995: Steve Kelly

That's a big sample size. Fact: You're pretty darn lucky if you're ending up with a Mikko Koivu at #6, or even Milan Michalek or Scott Hartnell. Heck, if you end up with a Gagner or a Brassard at #6 you've done pretty well for yourself. You'll have to go back to the early 90's to find good players being selected at that position every year, and those were deep drafts (so many great players born in the early 70's).

I'd easily trade Holland and that pick for Krejci. Anyway you trade a pick, there's always a chance a great player ends up getting selected with that pick, but even if you had kept the pick, chances are 50/50 that you would have selected someone else. The chances for the #6 overall becoming a top six forward/top four defenseman, are probably around 30%. I have a difficult time believen a contender would trade one of the leagues best 2nd line centers for uncertainty.

Edit: 30% is probably a little off... Maybe 40%... Anyways, the chances of getting a player SIGNIFICANTLY better than Krejci at 6th is somewhere around 10-15%


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