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-   -   Four First Round Picks At The Deadline (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1215159)

Stephen 06-23-2012 02:26 PM

Four First Round Picks At The Deadline
 
Considering Faksa, Grigorenko, Forsberg and Girgensons were all taken in the teens, and Subban in the 20s, is there any doubt now that Burke and company probably should have made those trades at the deadline and completely reloaded the organization in one fell swoop by picking at least a couple of those players? How would draft day have looked had we been in possession of five first rounders with the flexibility to move up and down the board?

I know people like their pride in March and hate to "tank", but considering how much ammunition a division rival like Buffalo has walked away with without even being in possession of a top ten pick, it is an absolute travesty that we hung onto guys like Clarke MacArthur because management was too short sighted to deal him. Every year, we see teams bite the bullet hard and re-emerge with a lot of good futures. Ottawa, Minnesota, Florida, Buffalo have all rebuilt en mass. One of these days it would be nice to see the Leafs go in wholeheartedly in one direction instead of ***** footing around the issue of rebuilding the system.

mooseOAK* 06-23-2012 02:28 PM

If those picks are so valuable then why were so many teams willing to trade them?

JMcLeaf 06-23-2012 02:28 PM

It would have been dumb to trade Grabo. Terrible UFA crop this summer, especially at center.

Goaltending is our weakest position so trading Reimer wouldnt be smart.

Better to trade Schenn for help now vs. a 1st that will take a few years to develop.

But Macarthur we should have done. Too late now.

SprDaVE 06-23-2012 02:30 PM

Easy to say in hindsight.

Leafs were right in the mix for the playoffs. Trading for 1st round picks would have made them worst.

A team doesn't give up on the playoffs so easily.

I know, I know, we still finished badly despite keeping those players but no one expected this collapse. Most analyst and experts had us in the playoffs near the trade deadline. We were supposed to be buyers!

Only on the HFboards would picks and prospects be more important than playoff hockey.

smoke meat pete* 06-23-2012 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 51396347)
Considering Faksa, Grigorenko, Forsberg and Girgensons were all taken in the teens, and Subban in the 20s, is there any doubt now that Burke and company probably should have made those trades at the deadline and completely reloaded the organization in one fell swoop by picking at least a couple of those players? How would draft day have looked had we been in possession of five first rounders with the flexibility to move up and down the board?

I know people like their pride in March and hate to "tank", but considering how much ammunition a division rival like Buffalo has walked away with without even being in possession of a top ten pick, it is an absolute travesty that we hung onto guys like Clarke MacArthur because management was too short sighted to deal him. Every year, we see teams bite the bullet hard and re-emerge with a lot of good futures. Ottawa, Minnesota, Florida, Buffalo have all rebuilt en mass. One of these days it would be nice to see the Leafs go in wholeheartedly in one direction instead of ***** footing around the issue of rebuilding the system.

Who were the players we were moving the 1st round picks for again? Reimer, MacA, Grabs,Schenn, Kulemin?

How much were we going to deplete our team to get 4 first round picks? We'd have just taken defenceman anyway.

Grant 06-23-2012 02:33 PM

Do we know for a fact that he was offered 1st round picks on 4 different players? I thought he said he was offered 4 1st round picks from different teams, for all we know all the offers were on the same player?

colchar 06-23-2012 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 51396347)
Considering Faksa, Grigorenko, Forsberg and Girgensons were all taken in the teens, and Subban in the 20s, is there any doubt now that Burke and company probably should have made those trades at the deadline and completely reloaded the organization in one fell swoop by picking at least a couple of those players?

Since those players wouldn't contribute for a couple of years at the earliest and since players do not always pan out yes, there is still plenty of doubt that we should have done that.

rojac 06-23-2012 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMcLeaf (Post 51396531)
But Macarthur we should have done. Too late now.

If I remember correctly, the Macarthur offer was a conditional first round pick. It was probably a second that went to a first if the team made the finals or something similar. So, it probably would have been a very late 1st round pick, or more likely, a middle to late second round pick.

BillyD 06-23-2012 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooseOAK (Post 51396517)
If those picks are so valuable then why were so many teams willing to trade them?

thats right, teams only trade worthless assets

:facepalm:

MapleLeafsFan4Ever 06-23-2012 02:37 PM

Without knowing what teams offered those 1st round picks it's hard to say that Burke should have accepted them.

Stephen 06-23-2012 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooseOAK (Post 51396517)
If those picks are so valuable then why were so many teams willing to trade them?

Parity and getting in the playoffs. If it made sense to deal Versteeg because he wasn't working out in exchange for a first rounder, the principle applies doubly so to the MacArthurs of the world, who possess less talent, less upside and are older and worse players.

Stephen 06-23-2012 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colchar (Post 51397009)
Since those players wouldn't contribute for a couple of years at the earliest and since players do not always pan out yes, there is still plenty of doubt that we should have done that.

It's not even about panning out so much as stocking the system with the kind of players we lack. If we had added Grigorenko and Girgensons or something, and one of them pans out, you're still doing better than having a weak 20 goal scorer on your roster who doesn't contribute to winning at all. Also better than waiting on marginal prospects like Sam Carrick to emerge as NHLers.

rojac 06-23-2012 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 51397219)
Parity and getting in the playoffs. If it made sense to deal Versteeg because he wasn't working out in exchange for a first rounder, the principle applies doubly so to the MacArthurs of the world, who possess less talent, less upside and are older and worse players.

Not necessarily. If Versteeg was unhappy and having a negative or potentially negative effect on "room", then it makes much more sense to move him.

Kyle Doobas* 06-23-2012 02:40 PM

I highly doubt teams in the 10-15 range were offering us their 1sts for Reimer and MacArthur.

Brewsky 06-23-2012 02:40 PM

Would've been amazing if got Grigorenko/Rielly.

SHEEET

mooseOAK* 06-23-2012 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 51397219)
Parity and getting in the playoffs. If it made sense to deal Versteeg because he wasn't working out in exchange for a first rounder, the principle applies doubly so to the MacArthurs of the world, who possess less talent, less upside and are older and worse players.

Okay then, if the Leaf players can have value to those teams then they can have value to Toronto also.

Rare Jewel 06-23-2012 02:41 PM

Believe it or not but there was actually still a chance at the playoffs on deadline day.

Stephen 06-23-2012 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SprDaVE (Post 51396657)
Easy to say in hindsight.

Leafs were right in the mix for the playoffs. Trading for 1st round picks would have made them worst.

A team doesn't give up on the playoffs so easily.

I know, I know, we still finished badly despite keeping those players but no one expected this collapse. Most analyst and experts had us in the playoffs near the trade deadline. We were supposed to be buyers!

Only on the HFboards would picks and prospects be more important than playoff hockey.

We didn't do much of getting either thing done. We didn't make the playoffs and we didn't overhaul the system in any meaningful way that gives us more quality and depth than before.

If Buffalo took one step back dealing Gaustad and missing the playoffs to emerge two or three steps ahead by rebuilding their center depth, we simply took a step back missing the playoffs and took a step forward again and are not tangibly better off than before.

Krazy 06-23-2012 02:44 PM

I still maintain burkes biggest mistake this year was signing liles.
Yes he is a good d on a good contract, but bottom line is he was a stop gap until gardiner was ready. Gards was ready and we still kept him, when we had enough offensive defenseman ready to share the load.

Gunnar Dion
Gards Luke
Franson Komi could have got us into 5th last just as easy and maybe walked away with a grigs.......

Now there is a log jam on offensive defensemen in TO. That second spot would have opened right up for schultz.....

BillyD 06-23-2012 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooseOAK (Post 51397467)
Okay then, if the Leaf players can have value to those teams then they can have value to Toronto also.

kind of missing the point dontcha think?

:help:

Rockinz 06-23-2012 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMcLeaf (Post 51396531)
It would have been dumb to trade Grabo. Terrible UFA crop this summer, especially at center.

Goaltending is our weakest position so trading Reimer wouldnt be smart.

Better to trade Schenn for help now vs. a 1st that will take a few years to develop.

But Macarthur we should have done. Too late now.

i thought it was a conditional 1st for Mac?

ErnieLeafs 06-23-2012 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 51396347)
Considering Faksa, Grigorenko, Forsberg and Girgensons were all taken in the teens, and Subban in the 20s, is there any doubt now that Burke and company probably should have made those trades at the deadline and completely reloaded the organization in one fell swoop by picking at least a couple of those players? How would draft day have looked had we been in possession of five first rounders with the flexibility to move up and down the board?

I know people like their pride in March and hate to "tank", but considering how much ammunition a division rival like Buffalo has walked away with without even being in possession of a top ten pick, it is an absolute travesty that we hung onto guys like Clarke MacArthur because management was too short sighted to deal him. Every year, we see teams bite the bullet hard and re-emerge with a lot of good futures. Ottawa, Minnesota, Florida, Buffalo have all rebuilt en mass. One of these days it would be nice to see the Leafs go in wholeheartedly in one direction instead of ***** footing around the issue of rebuilding the system.

Honestly...... Do you go a single day without whining and playing the hindsight card?

JMcLeaf 06-23-2012 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockinz (Post 51397707)
i thought it was a conditional 1st for Mac?

Yeah it was. Usually I remember to say that but i forgot there lol.

Using hindsight I probably would have done it unless it was a ridiculous condition.

I still want Mac traded this summer.

Stephen 06-23-2012 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs (Post 51397741)
Honestly...... Do you go a single day without whining and playing the hindsight card?

Actually, I've been playing the "I told you so" card since 2006 and even that is getting tiring with you bozos.

colchar 06-23-2012 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 51397323)
It's not even about panning out so much as stocking the system with the kind of players we lack. If we had added Grigorenko and Girgensons or something, and one of them pans out, you're still doing better than having a weak 20 goal scorer on your roster who doesn't contribute to winning at all. Also better than waiting on marginal prospects like Sam Carrick to emerge as NHLers.


As someone posted elsewhere here, we have something like 18-20 centers in our system. Why bring in more?


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